Fact or fiction?
The Cook wrote:
I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? True, with a caveat or two: Any material absorbes nitrogen as it decomposes. If it doesn't contain much nitrogen of its own, the deficit comes from its surroundings. Having said that, if the wood chips or whatever are on the surface, they won't steal much N from the soil under them. And if the "brown" material is partially rotted already, there's less of an issue. So, let it rot and weather as mulch before turning it in, or partially compost first, and you'll be fine. Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G |
Fact or fiction?
I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in
the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? -- USA North Carolina Foothills USDA Zone 7a |
Fact or fiction?
In article ,
The Cook wrote: I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%). The lignin component also presents a barrier to wood decay because lignin is a complex aromatic polymer that encrusts the cell walls, preventing access of enzymes to the more easily degradable cellulose and hemicelluloses. In addition to these points, wood often contains potentially fungitoxic compounds, which are deposited in the heartwood. In broad-leaved trees the toxic compounds are usually tannins, well know for their ability to cross-link proteins, making animal skins resistant to decay. In contrast, conifers contain a range of phenolic compounds such as terpenes, stilbenes, flavonoids and tropolones. The most toxic of the tropolones are the thujaplicins which act as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation; they are particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...iology/woodrot s.htm When the nitrogen is no longer needed for enzymes or fungal growth, it is released back into the soil environment for use by other microbes, and plants. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
Fact or fiction?
In article ,
Gary Woods wrote: The Cook wrote: I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? True, with a caveat or two: Any material absorbes nitrogen as it decomposes. If it doesn't contain much nitrogen of its own, the deficit comes from its surroundings. Having said that, if the wood chips or whatever are on the surface, they won't steal much N from the soil under them. And if the "brown" material is partially rotted already, there's less of an issue. So, let it rot and weather as mulch before turning it in, or partially compost first, and you'll be fine. Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G I think of rotting as burning. Everything burns up some faster than others. Rusting is oxidation aka a slow burn. A book that touches on this as a side issue is "Arctic Dreams " which notes the slow decay in arctic areas. Dead animals and foot prints about for years. Many stars and due for a reread. -- Bill Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA |
Fact or fiction?
Bill who putters wrote:
In article , Gary Woods wrote: The Cook wrote: I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? True, with a caveat or two: Any material absorbes nitrogen as it decomposes. If it doesn't contain much nitrogen of its own, the deficit comes from its surroundings. Having said that, if the wood chips or whatever are on the surface, they won't steal much N from the soil under them. And if the "brown" material is partially rotted already, there's less of an issue. So, let it rot and weather as mulch before turning it in, or partially compost first, and you'll be fine. Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G I think of rotting as burning. Everything burns up some faster than others. Rusting is oxidation aka a slow burn. A better way of describing it would be being eaten rather than burnt. Burning doesn't involve nitrogen whereas the microbes that decompose wood do use up nitrogen as well as oxygen. Gary had it pretty well right. Nitrogen is used up to some extent but it may not be an issue and it gets returned later. The situation has to be fairly extreme for nitrogen draw down to severely deplete the soil. This can be used to your advantage by using sawdust on paths, little or nothing will grow in it for a year or two. David |
Fact or fiction?
In article
, Billy wrote: In article , The Cook wrote: I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%). The lignin component also presents a barrier to wood decay because lignin is a complex aromatic polymer that encrusts the cell walls, preventing access of enzymes to the more easily degradable cellulose and hemicelluloses. In addition to these points, wood often contains potentially fungitoxic compounds, which are deposited in the heartwood. In broad-leaved trees the toxic compounds are usually tannins, well know for their ability to cross-link proteins, making animal skins resistant to decay. In contrast, conifers contain a range of phenolic compounds such as terpenes, stilbenes, flavonoids and tropolones. The most toxic of the tropolones are the thujaplicins which act as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation; they are particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...iology/woodrot s.htm When the nitrogen is no longer needed for enzymes or fungal growth, it is released back into the soil environment for use by other microbes, and plants. So I have a follow up question to that very interesting question! Is it Ok to BURY freshly cut wood, logs and chips, under the vegetable garden soil? Your opinions do count. Lots of great advice here. I have this book, "Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture by Toby Hemenway" ISBN-10: 1603580298. On page 84, "Woody Ways to build soil" Its called "Hugelkultur". That freshly cut wood can be instantly used in vegetable gardens. The buried slowly rotting wood feeds the plants and improves the soil. One link about this: http://hubpages.com/hub/Hugelkultur-...-in-Composting I am not sure if this is sound advice or not. -- Enjoy Life... Dan Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. |
Fact or fiction?
In article
, "Dan L." wrote: In article , Billy wrote: In article , The Cook wrote: I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%). The lignin component also presents a barrier to wood decay because lignin is a complex aromatic polymer that encrusts the cell walls, preventing access of enzymes to the more easily degradable cellulose and hemicelluloses. In addition to these points, wood often contains potentially fungitoxic compounds, which are deposited in the heartwood. In broad-leaved trees the toxic compounds are usually tannins, well know for their ability to cross-link proteins, making animal skins resistant to decay. In contrast, conifers contain a range of phenolic compounds such as terpenes, stilbenes, flavonoids and tropolones. The most toxic of the tropolones are the thujaplicins which act as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation; they are particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...iology/woodrot s.htm When the nitrogen is no longer needed for enzymes or fungal growth, it is released back into the soil environment for use by other microbes, and plants. So I have a follow up question to that very interesting question! Is it Ok to BURY freshly cut wood, logs and chips, under the vegetable garden soil? Your opinions do count. Lots of great advice here. I have this book, "Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture by Toby Hemenway" ISBN-10: 1603580298. On page 84, "Woody Ways to build soil" Its called "Hugelkultur". That freshly cut wood can be instantly used in vegetable gardens. The buried slowly rotting wood feeds the plants and improves the soil. One link about this: http://hubpages.com/hub/Hugelkultur-...-in-Composting I am not sure if this is sound advice or not. I've found a few glitches in Gaia's Garden, like using a circular sprinkler to water a keyhole bed containing tomatoes, to name one. For immediate use, it sounds as if the web site is advocating adding green material (fall leaves, grass clippings) to the wood (log, limbs, twigs) which will contain some nitrogen. They also advocate manure in place of the green material. The book talks of using grass as well, but also suggest straw, and sod (from sod I know nothing). Brown materials won't contain nitrogen, but according to Gaia's Garden the hugelkulture releases heat and moisture which encourages growth. If I were doing this, I would use manure with the wood and, at a minimum, the equivalent of 18 lbs of chicken manure/ 100 sq. ft.. Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit Sheep N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4 .70 P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4 .30 K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60 .90 As I mentioned to "The Cook" earlier,"In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%)." http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...Biology/woodro ts.htm Here we have contradictory statements for Hugelkultur (green and brown amendments). We are told that composting wood is good for heat and humidity. We know that fungi need nitrogen to break down the wood. I would stay away from adding more brown material to the wood. Otherwise, it sounds OK for potatoes, berries, and melons, but squash require high inputs of nitrogen. If growing squash, I would add organic fish emulsion twice a month, until flowering (then no further nitrogen), to insure nitrogen levels are sufficient. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
Fact or fiction?
"Dan L." wrote in message
Permaculture by Toby Hemenway" Now that name is a blast from the past. He used to post in the alt.permaculture newsgroup many moons ago. |
Fact or fiction?
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:41:14 -0700, Billy
wrote: In article , The Cook wrote: I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%). The lignin component also presents a barrier to wood decay because lignin is a complex aromatic polymer that encrusts the cell walls, preventing access of enzymes to the more easily degradable cellulose and hemicelluloses. In addition to these points, wood often contains potentially fungitoxic compounds, which are deposited in the heartwood. In broad-leaved trees the toxic compounds are usually tannins, well know for their ability to cross-link proteins, making animal skins resistant to decay. In contrast, conifers contain a range of phenolic compounds such as terpenes, stilbenes, flavonoids and tropolones. The most toxic of the tropolones are the thujaplicins which act as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation; they are particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...iology/woodrot s.htm When the nitrogen is no longer needed for enzymes or fungal growth, it is released back into the soil environment for use by other microbes, and plants. Actually my husband and I were discussing the cedar chips versus grass clippings as mulch for the rhubarb. He is thinking that the cedar would be there for a long time. I am thinking that the chips cost money and would get moved into the other parts of the garden. Grass clippings a free and do provide some nutrients for the plants as well as helping to keep the weeds down. We do have about an acre of grass that needs to be mowed regularly. -- USA North Carolina Foothills USDA Zone 7a |
Fact or fiction?
"Dan L." wrote in message ... In article , Billy wrote: In article , The Cook wrote: I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%). The lignin component also presents a barrier to wood decay because lignin is a complex aromatic polymer that encrusts the cell walls, preventing access of enzymes to the more easily degradable cellulose and hemicelluloses. In addition to these points, wood often contains potentially fungitoxic compounds, which are deposited in the heartwood. In broad-leaved trees the toxic compounds are usually tannins, well know for their ability to cross-link proteins, making animal skins resistant to decay. In contrast, conifers contain a range of phenolic compounds such as terpenes, stilbenes, flavonoids and tropolones. The most toxic of the tropolones are the thujaplicins which act as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation; they are particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...iology/woodrot s.htm When the nitrogen is no longer needed for enzymes or fungal growth, it is released back into the soil environment for use by other microbes, and plants. So I have a follow up question to that very interesting question! Is it Ok to BURY freshly cut wood, logs and chips, under the vegetable garden soil? Your opinions do count. Lots of great advice here. I have this book, "Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture by Toby Hemenway" ISBN-10: 1603580298. On page 84, "Woody Ways to build soil" Its called "Hugelkultur". That freshly cut wood can be instantly used in vegetable gardens. The buried slowly rotting wood feeds the plants and improves the soil. One link about this: http://hubpages.com/hub/Hugelkultur-...-in-Composting I am not sure if this is sound advice or not. -- Enjoy Life... Dan Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. 19th century market gardeners near Paris used a very similar technique. Adding enough manure or green material to the wood created a hot compost pile underneath the soil. This allowed earlier planting and much higher prices for the early veggies. Steve |
Fact or fiction?
In article ,
The Cook wrote: On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:41:14 -0700, Billy wrote: In article , The Cook wrote: I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%). The lignin component also presents a barrier to wood decay because lignin is a complex aromatic polymer that encrusts the cell walls, preventing access of enzymes to the more easily degradable cellulose and hemicelluloses. In addition to these points, wood often contains potentially fungitoxic compounds, which are deposited in the heartwood. In broad-leaved trees the toxic compounds are usually tannins, well know for their ability to cross-link proteins, making animal skins resistant to decay. In contrast, conifers contain a range of phenolic compounds such as terpenes, stilbenes, flavonoids and tropolones. The most toxic of the tropolones are the thujaplicins which act as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation; they are particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...iology/woodrot s.htm When the nitrogen is no longer needed for enzymes or fungal growth, it is released back into the soil environment for use by other microbes, and plants. Actually my husband and I were discussing the cedar chips versus grass clippings as mulch for the rhubarb. He is thinking that the cedar would be there for a long time. I am thinking that the chips cost money and would get moved into the other parts of the garden. Grass clippings a free and do provide some nutrients for the plants as well as helping to keep the weeds down. We do have about an acre of grass that needs to be mowed regularly. Cedar chips would be the opposite of grass clippings as a mulch. Are we talking mulch as a ground cover, or mulch as a nutrient? Cedar chips breakdown slowly, making them a good ground cover, but a poor nutrient. Grass clipping break down quickly, making them a quick nutrient source for soil microbes. ---- "wood often contains potentially fungitoxic compounds, which are deposited in the heartwood. In broad-leaved trees the toxic compounds are usually tannins, well know for their ability to cross-link proteins, making animal skins resistant to decay. In contrast, conifers contain a range of phenolic compounds such as terpenes, stilbenes, flavonoids and tropolones. The most toxic of the tropolones are the thujaplicins which act as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation; they are particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc." http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...Biology/woodro ts.htm ---- Am I missing a piece of the puzzle? -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
Fact or fiction?
In article
, Billy wrote: In article , "Dan L." wrote: In article , Billy wrote: In article , The Cook wrote: I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%). The lignin component also presents a barrier to wood decay because lignin is a complex aromatic polymer that encrusts the cell walls, preventing access of enzymes to the more easily degradable cellulose and hemicelluloses. In addition to these points, wood often contains potentially fungitoxic compounds, which are deposited in the heartwood. In broad-leaved trees the toxic compounds are usually tannins, well know for their ability to cross-link proteins, making animal skins resistant to decay. In contrast, conifers contain a range of phenolic compounds such as terpenes, stilbenes, flavonoids and tropolones. The most toxic of the tropolones are the thujaplicins which act as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation; they are particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...iology/woodrot s.htm When the nitrogen is no longer needed for enzymes or fungal growth, it is released back into the soil environment for use by other microbes, and plants. So I have a follow up question to that very interesting question! Is it Ok to BURY freshly cut wood, logs and chips, under the vegetable garden soil? Your opinions do count. Lots of great advice here. I have this book, "Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture by Toby Hemenway" ISBN-10: 1603580298. On page 84, "Woody Ways to build soil" Its called "Hugelkultur". That freshly cut wood can be instantly used in vegetable gardens. The buried slowly rotting wood feeds the plants and improves the soil. One link about this: http://hubpages.com/hub/Hugelkultur-...-in-Composting I am not sure if this is sound advice or not. I've found a few glitches in Gaia's Garden, like using a circular sprinkler to water a keyhole bed containing tomatoes, to name one. For The book is interesting. I like the garden design ideas. Garden techniques I am not so sure. I am not sure if Amazon.com is a curse or blessing :) More in common than shoes :) immediate use, it sounds as if the web site is advocating adding green material (fall leaves, grass clippings) to the wood (log, limbs, twigs) which will contain some nitrogen. They also advocate manure in place of the green material. The book talks of using grass as well, but also suggest straw, and sod (from sod I know nothing). Brown materials won't contain nitrogen, but according to Gaia's Garden the hugelkulture releases heat and moisture which encourages growth. If I were doing this, I would use manure with the wood and, at a minimum, the equivalent of 18 lbs of chicken manure/ 100 sq. ft.. Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit Sheep N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4 .70 P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4 .30 K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60 .90 As I mentioned to "The Cook" earlier,"In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%)." http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...Biology/woodro ts.htm Here we have contradictory statements for Hugelkultur (green and brown amendments). We are told that composting wood is good for heat and humidity. We know that fungi need nitrogen to break down the wood. I would stay away from adding more brown material to the wood. Sounds like this could be a good way to jump start a garden in cold Michigan. I would just need a row cover on those late frost dates. Chemistry and Biology was not on my candy store list. A weakness on my part. I have lots of grass and chicken poop mixed in with the straw. Hen House thing. So adding Manure with straw to the wood might be a mixed blessing. Otherwise, it sounds OK for potatoes, berries, and melons, but squash require high inputs of nitrogen. If growing squash, I would add organic fish emulsion twice a month, until flowering (then no further nitrogen), to insure nitrogen levels are sufficient. I only plant ONE squash plant and thats it, all that is needed. -- Enjoy Life... Dan Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. |
Fact or fiction?
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: "Dan L." wrote in message Permaculture by Toby Hemenway" Now that name is a blast from the past. He used to post in the alt.permaculture newsgroup many moons ago. He probably got rich from your postings :) -- Enjoy Life... Dan Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. |
Fact or fiction?
In article ,
"Steve Peek" wrote: "Dan L." wrote in message ... In article , Billy wrote: In article , The Cook wrote: I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%). The lignin component also presents a barrier to wood decay because lignin is a complex aromatic polymer that encrusts the cell walls, preventing access of enzymes to the more easily degradable cellulose and hemicelluloses. In addition to these points, wood often contains potentially fungitoxic compounds, which are deposited in the heartwood. In broad-leaved trees the toxic compounds are usually tannins, well know for their ability to cross-link proteins, making animal skins resistant to decay. In contrast, conifers contain a range of phenolic compounds such as terpenes, stilbenes, flavonoids and tropolones. The most toxic of the tropolones are the thujaplicins which act as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation; they are particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...iology/woodrot s.htm When the nitrogen is no longer needed for enzymes or fungal growth, it is released back into the soil environment for use by other microbes, and plants. So I have a follow up question to that very interesting question! Is it Ok to BURY freshly cut wood, logs and chips, under the vegetable garden soil? Your opinions do count. Lots of great advice here. I have this book, "Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture by Toby Hemenway" ISBN-10: 1603580298. On page 84, "Woody Ways to build soil" Its called "Hugelkultur". That freshly cut wood can be instantly used in vegetable gardens. The buried slowly rotting wood feeds the plants and improves the soil. One link about this: http://hubpages.com/hub/Hugelkultur-...-in-Composting I am not sure if this is sound advice or not. -- Enjoy Life... Dan Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. 19th century market gardeners near Paris used a very similar technique. Adding enough manure or green material to the wood created a hot compost pile underneath the soil. This allowed earlier planting and much higher prices for the early veggies. Steve What was old then is now new again :) -- Enjoy Life... Dan Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. |
Fact or fiction?
In article
, "Dan L." wrote: In article , "Steve Peek" wrote: "Dan L." wrote in message ... In article , Billy wrote: In article , The Cook wrote: I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%). The lignin component also presents a barrier to wood decay because lignin is a complex aromatic polymer that encrusts the cell walls, preventing access of enzymes to the more easily degradable cellulose and hemicelluloses. In addition to these points, wood often contains potentially fungitoxic compounds, which are deposited in the heartwood. In broad-leaved trees the toxic compounds are usually tannins, well know for their ability to cross-link proteins, making animal skins resistant to decay. In contrast, conifers contain a range of phenolic compounds such as terpenes, stilbenes, flavonoids and tropolones. The most toxic of the tropolones are the thujaplicins which act as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation; they are particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...iology/woodrot s.htm When the nitrogen is no longer needed for enzymes or fungal growth, it is released back into the soil environment for use by other microbes, and plants. So I have a follow up question to that very interesting question! Is it Ok to BURY freshly cut wood, logs and chips, under the vegetable garden soil? Your opinions do count. Lots of great advice here. I have this book, "Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture by Toby Hemenway" ISBN-10: 1603580298. On page 84, "Woody Ways to build soil" Its called "Hugelkultur". That freshly cut wood can be instantly used in vegetable gardens. The buried slowly rotting wood feeds the plants and improves the soil. One link about this: http://hubpages.com/hub/Hugelkultur-...-in-Composting I am not sure if this is sound advice or not. -- Enjoy Life... Dan Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. 19th century market gardeners near Paris used a very similar technique. Adding enough manure or green material to the wood created a hot compost pile underneath the soil. This allowed earlier planting and much higher prices for the early veggies. Steve What was old then is now new again :) Right down to putting cloches over the plants. We forgot a lot with the "green revolution". -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
Fact or fiction?
In article
, "Dan L." wrote: In article , Billy wrote: In article , "Dan L." wrote: In article , Billy wrote: In article , The Cook wrote: I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%). The lignin component also presents a barrier to wood decay because lignin is a complex aromatic polymer that encrusts the cell walls, preventing access of enzymes to the more easily degradable cellulose and hemicelluloses. In addition to these points, wood often contains potentially fungitoxic compounds, which are deposited in the heartwood. In broad-leaved trees the toxic compounds are usually tannins, well know for their ability to cross-link proteins, making animal skins resistant to decay. In contrast, conifers contain a range of phenolic compounds such as terpenes, stilbenes, flavonoids and tropolones. The most toxic of the tropolones are the thujaplicins which act as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation; they are particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...Biology/woodro t s.htm When the nitrogen is no longer needed for enzymes or fungal growth, it is released back into the soil environment for use by other microbes, and plants. So I have a follow up question to that very interesting question! Is it Ok to BURY freshly cut wood, logs and chips, under the vegetable garden soil? Your opinions do count. Lots of great advice here. I have this book, "Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture by Toby Hemenway" ISBN-10: 1603580298. On page 84, "Woody Ways to build soil" Its called "Hugelkultur". That freshly cut wood can be instantly used in vegetable gardens. The buried slowly rotting wood feeds the plants and improves the soil. One link about this: http://hubpages.com/hub/Hugelkultur-...-in-Composting I am not sure if this is sound advice or not. I've found a few glitches in Gaia's Garden, like using a circular sprinkler to water a keyhole bed containing tomatoes, to name one. For The book is interesting. I like the garden design ideas. Garden techniques I am not so sure. I am not sure if Amazon.com is a curse or blessing :) More in common than shoes :) immediate use, it sounds as if the web site is advocating adding green material (fall leaves, grass clippings) to the wood (log, limbs, twigs) which will contain some nitrogen. They also advocate manure in place of the green material. The book talks of using grass as well, but also suggest straw, and sod (from sod I know nothing). Brown materials won't contain nitrogen, but according to Gaia's Garden the hugelkulture releases heat and moisture which encourages growth. If I were doing this, I would use manure with the wood and, at a minimum, the equivalent of 18 lbs of chicken manure/ 100 sq. ft.. Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit Sheep N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4 .70 P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4 .30 K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60 .90 As I mentioned to "The Cook" earlier,"In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%)." http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...Biology/woodro ts.htm Here we have contradictory statements for Hugelkultur (green and brown amendments). We are told that composting wood is good for heat and humidity. We know that fungi need nitrogen to break down the wood. I would stay away from adding more brown material to the wood. Sounds like this could be a good way to jump start a garden in cold Michigan. I would just need a row cover on those late frost dates. Chemistry and Biology was not on my candy store list. A weakness on my part. I have lots of grass and chicken poop mixed in with the straw. Hen House thing. So adding Manure with straw to the wood might be a mixed blessing. Otherwise, it sounds OK for potatoes, berries, and melons, but squash require high inputs of nitrogen. If growing squash, I would add organic fish emulsion twice a month, until flowering (then no further nitrogen), to insure nitrogen levels are sufficient. I only plant ONE squash plant and thats it, all that is needed. Compost formula = 2(30 parts brown/1 part green)+ 1(manure) Ex. 18 lbs (twigs, branches, dried leaves) + 2 lbs (grass clippings, pulled weeds, plant trimmings) + 10 lbs manure (no specific type mentioned). Let it Rot!: The Gardener's Guide to Composting (Third Edition) (Storey's Down-to-Earth Guides) (Paperback) by Stu Campbell http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/158..._p14_i1?pf_rd_ m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1HT31JNNBYN5BXFZS2EA&pf_rd_t=101 &pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846 -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
Fact or fiction?
In article
, Billy wrote: cloches http://www.antiques-atlas.com/antiqu..._cloches/as070 a185 -- Bill Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA |
Fact or fiction?
In article
, Billy wrote: In article , "Dan L." wrote: In article , Billy wrote: In article , "Dan L." wrote: In article , Billy wrote: In article , The Cook wrote: I seem to remember that wood as it decomposes uses up the nitrogen in the soil. Not really good for the garden. Old wives tale or true? In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%). The lignin component also presents a barrier to wood decay because lignin is a complex aromatic polymer that encrusts the cell walls, preventing access of enzymes to the more easily degradable cellulose and hemicelluloses. In addition to these points, wood often contains potentially fungitoxic compounds, which are deposited in the heartwood. In broad-leaved trees the toxic compounds are usually tannins, well know for their ability to cross-link proteins, making animal skins resistant to decay. In contrast, conifers contain a range of phenolic compounds such as terpenes, stilbenes, flavonoids and tropolones. The most toxic of the tropolones are the thujaplicins which act as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation; they are particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...alBiology/wood ro t s.htm When the nitrogen is no longer needed for enzymes or fungal growth, it is released back into the soil environment for use by other microbes, and plants. So I have a follow up question to that very interesting question! Is it Ok to BURY freshly cut wood, logs and chips, under the vegetable garden soil? Your opinions do count. Lots of great advice here. I have this book, "Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture by Toby Hemenway" ISBN-10: 1603580298. On page 84, "Woody Ways to build soil" Its called "Hugelkultur". That freshly cut wood can be instantly used in vegetable gardens. The buried slowly rotting wood feeds the plants and improves the soil. One link about this: http://hubpages.com/hub/Hugelkultur-...-in-Composting I am not sure if this is sound advice or not. I've found a few glitches in Gaia's Garden, like using a circular sprinkler to water a keyhole bed containing tomatoes, to name one. For The book is interesting. I like the garden design ideas. Garden techniques I am not so sure. I am not sure if Amazon.com is a curse or blessing :) More in common than shoes :) immediate use, it sounds as if the web site is advocating adding green material (fall leaves, grass clippings) to the wood (log, limbs, twigs) which will contain some nitrogen. They also advocate manure in place of the green material. The book talks of using grass as well, but also suggest straw, and sod (from sod I know nothing). Brown materials won't contain nitrogen, but according to Gaia's Garden the hugelkulture releases heat and moisture which encourages growth. If I were doing this, I would use manure with the wood and, at a minimum, the equivalent of 18 lbs of chicken manure/ 100 sq. ft.. Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit Sheep N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4 .70 P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4 .30 K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60 .90 As I mentioned to "The Cook" earlier,"In terms of both its physical and chemical properties, wood is an exceptionally difficult substrate to degrade. One of the principal reasons is that wood contains very low levels of nitrogen, which is needed to produce the enzymes that degrade the main structural polmers of wood - cellulose (about 40-50% of the dry weight of wood), hemicelluloses (25-40%) and lignin (20-35%)." http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...Biology/woodro ts.htm Here we have contradictory statements for Hugelkultur (green and brown amendments). We are told that composting wood is good for heat and humidity. We know that fungi need nitrogen to break down the wood. I would stay away from adding more brown material to the wood. Sounds like this could be a good way to jump start a garden in cold Michigan. I would just need a row cover on those late frost dates. Chemistry and Biology was not on my candy store list. A weakness on my part. I have lots of grass and chicken poop mixed in with the straw. Hen House thing. So adding Manure with straw to the wood might be a mixed blessing. Otherwise, it sounds OK for potatoes, berries, and melons, but squash require high inputs of nitrogen. If growing squash, I would add organic fish emulsion twice a month, until flowering (then no further nitrogen), to insure nitrogen levels are sufficient. I only plant ONE squash plant and thats it, all that is needed. Compost formula = 2(30 parts brown/1 part green)+ 1(manure) BIG WHOOPS. Make that Ex. 30 lbs (twigs, branches, dried leaves) + 1 lbs (grass clippings, pulled weeds, plant trimmings) + 15.5 lbs manure (no specific type mentioned). Sorry about that :O) Let it Rot!: The Gardener's Guide to Composting (Third Edition) (Storey's Down-to-Earth Guides) (Paperback) by Stu Campbell http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/158..._p14_i1?pf_rd_ m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1HT31JNNBYN5BXFZS2EA&pf_rd_t=101 &pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846 -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
Fact or fiction?
In article ,
Bill who putters wrote: In article , Billy wrote: cloches http://www.antiques-atlas.com/antiqu..._cloches/as070 a185 Good picture, thanks. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
Fact or fiction?
In article
, Billy wrote: Compost formula = 2(30 parts brown/1 part green)+ 1(manure) BIG WHOOPS. Make that Ex. 30 lbs (twigs, branches, dried leaves) + 1 lbs (grass clippings, pulled weeds, plant trimmings) + 15.5 lbs manure (no specific type mentioned). Sorry about that :O) Let it Rot!: The Gardener's Guide to Composting (Third Edition) (Storey's Down-to-Earth Guides) (Paperback) by Stu Campbell http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/158..._p14_i1?pf_rd_ m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1HT31JNNBYN5BXFZS2EA&pf_rd_t=101 &pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846 Amazon is definitely a curse. I just have the "The Rodale Book of Composting: Easy Methods for Every Gardener" 1992. An old outdated book, has nothing on handling wood. "Let it Rot!' is on order :) One headache is Rose Bush trimmings, A real pain in the ... In past I just simply buried them in the ground. I see I should have buried them with other compost materials. I used to think Roses were cool and part of all nice gardens. Now in my old age I hate the things. I now think there ugly. Not even worth putting in a vase. Years ago I had dozens of them. Now down to four bushes and tempted to rip them out. -- Enjoy Life... Dan Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. |
Fact or fiction?
In article
, Billy wrote: In article , Bill who putters wrote: In article , Billy wrote: cloches http://www.antiques-atlas.com/antiqu..._cloches/as070 a185 Good picture, thanks. For $425.15 a pair!!!!! I will take the plastic ones for $10 each at http://www.gardeners.com/ -- Enjoy Life... Dan Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. |
Fact or fiction?
In article
, "Dan L." wrote: In article , Billy wrote: In article , Bill who putters wrote: In article , Billy wrote: cloches http://www.antiques-atlas.com/antiqu..._cloches/as070 a185 Good picture, thanks. For $425.15 a pair!!!!! I will take the plastic ones for $10 each at http://www.gardeners.com/ I bet they're not collectibles;O) -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
Fact or fiction?
In article
, "Dan L." wrote: In article , Billy wrote: Compost formula = 2(30 parts brown/1 part green)+ 1(manure) BIG WHOOPS. Make that Ex. 30 lbs (twigs, branches, dried leaves) + 1 lbs (grass clippings, pulled weeds, plant trimmings) + 15.5 lbs manure (no specific type mentioned). Sorry about that :O) Let it Rot!: The Gardener's Guide to Composting (Third Edition) (Storey's Down-to-Earth Guides) (Paperback) by Stu Campbell http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/158..._p14_i1?pf_rd_ m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1HT31JNNBYN5BXFZS2EA&pf_rd_t=101 &pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846 Amazon is definitely a curse. I just have the "The Rodale Book of Composting: Easy Methods for Every Gardener" 1992. An old outdated book, has nothing on handling wood. "Let it Rot!' is on order :) Uh, in the future, you may want to check it out through the library first. Just remember, I didn't recommend it ;O) One headache is Rose Bush trimmings, A real pain in the ... In past I just simply buried them in the ground. I see I should have buried them with other compost materials. I used to think Roses were cool and part of all nice gardens. Now in my old age I hate the things. I now think there ugly. Not even worth putting in a vase. Years ago I had dozens of them. Now down to four bushes and tempted to rip them out. Trust me. You need roses. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
Fact or fiction?
In article ,
wrote: Billy wrote: In article , "Dan L." wrote: I used to think Roses were cool and part of all nice gardens. Now in my old age I hate the things. I now think there ugly. Not even worth putting in a vase. Years ago I had dozens of them. Now down to four bushes and tempted to rip them out. Trust me. You need roses. LOL! I'm with Dan on this one and somewhat grateful that he has "seen the light"; LOL! In fact, I dislike virtually all garden flowers. Even in my younger days, found flowers to be garish and ugly. Always regarded growing flowers to be as silly and as great a waste of resources and as abusive of the environment as maintaining a "lawn" and simply don't do either. In fact, I had hoped that by now enlightened jurisdictions in U.S.A. would have begun banning lawns (among the largest, most environmentally destructive of all large-scale "monocrops") and restricting flower gardening but, I guess it ain't gonna happen: The movies-induced vision of happy family in its quaint bungalow replete with picket fence and green, green lawn simply remains too strong, I guess. Man, don't _even_ get me started on those nasty-assed European honeybees-from-Hell and the ignorant, lazy, irresponsible twits who continue to allow them to escape into the environment, at large, and naturalize. Everyone knows how flowers grow. Nobody knows why. Old hippy statement. http://www.doctorhugo.org/synaesthesia/Blake.html -- Bill Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA |
Fact or fiction?
In article ,
wrote: Billy wrote: In article , "Dan L." wrote: I used to think Roses were cool and part of all nice gardens. Now in my old age I hate the things. I now think there ugly. Not even worth putting in a vase. Years ago I had dozens of them. Now down to four bushes and tempted to rip them out. Trust me. You need roses. LOL! I'm with Dan on this one and somewhat grateful that he has "seen the light"; LOL! In fact, I dislike virtually all garden flowers. Even in my younger days, found flowers to be garish and ugly. Always regarded growing flowers to be as silly and as great a waste of resources and as abusive of the environment as maintaining a "lawn" and simply don't do either. In fact, I had hoped that by now enlightened jurisdictions in U.S.A. would have begun banning lawns (among the largest, most environmentally destructive of all large-scale "monocrops") and restricting flower gardening but, I guess it ain't gonna happen: The movies-induced vision of happy family in its quaint bungalow replete with picket fence and green, green lawn simply remains too strong, I guess. Man, don't _even_ get me started on those nasty-assed European honeybees-from-Hell and the ignorant, lazy, irresponsible twits who continue to allow them to escape into the environment, at large, and naturalize. What are you doing in a gardening group, if you don't like bees and flowers? Time to crawl back into your drink, and consider yourself "slimed". --- U.S. dependent on insects to pollinate about one-third of crops In fact, about one-third of the human diet comes from insect-pollinated plants, and the honeybee is responsible for 80 percent of that pollination, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Even cattle, which feed on alfalfa, depend on bees. So if the collapse worsens, we could end up being "stuck with grains and water," said Kevin Hackett, the national program leader for USDA's bee and pollination program. "This is the biggest general threat to our food supply," Hackett said. Of the 17,000 species of bees that scientists know about, "honeybees are, for many reasons, the pollinator of choice for most North American crops," a National Academy of Sciences study said last year. They pollinate many types of plants, repeatedly visit the same plant, and recruit other honeybees to visit, too. Pulitzer Prize-winning insect biologist E.O. Wilson of Harvard said the honeybee is nature's "workhorse -- and we took it for granted." "We've hung our own future on a thread," Wilson, author of the book "The Creation: An Appeal to Save Life on Earth," told The Associated Press http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18442426/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...inated_by_bees --- Some garden plants such as fruit trees and squash must have bee pollination to be successful. General Gardening Advice for Attracting Bees and Other Pollinators 1. Don't use pesticides. Most pesticides are not selective. You are killing off the beneficial bugs along with the pests. If you must use a pesticide, start with the least toxic one and follow the label instructions to the letter. 2. Use local native plants. Research suggests native plants are four times more attractive to native bees than exotic flowers. They are also usually well adapted to your growing conditions and can thrive with minimum attention. In gardens, heirloom varieties of herbs and perennials can also provide good foraging. 3. Chose several colors of flowers. Bees have good color vision to help them find flowers and the nectar and pollen they offer. Flower colors that particularly attract bees are blue, purple, violet, white, and yellow. 4. Plant flowers in clumps. Flowers clustered into clumps of one species will attract more pollinators than individual plants scattered through the habitat patch. Where space allows, make the clumps four feet or more in diameter. 5. Include flowers of different shapes. There are four thousand different species of bees in North America, and they are all different sizes, have different tongue lengths, and will feed on different shaped flowers. Consequently, providing a range of flower shapes means more bees can benefit. 6. Have a diversity of plants flowering all season. Most bee species are generalists, feeding on a range of plants through their life cycle. By having several plant species flowering at once, and a sequence of plants flowering through spring, summer, and fall, you can support a range of bee species that fly at different times of the season. 7. Plant where bees will visit. Bees favor sunny spots over shade and need some shelter from strong winds. http://www.wikihow.com/Attract-Honey-Bees Here is a partial list of tried-and-true bee attractors: Annuals Asters Calliopsis Clover Marigolds Poppies Sunflowers Zinnias Perennials Buttercups Clematis Cosmos Crocuses Dahlias Echinacea English Ivy Foxglove Geraniums Germander Globe Thistle Hollyhocks Hyacinth Rock Cress Roses Sedum Snowdrops Squills Tansy Yellow Hyssop Garden Plants Blackberries Cantaloupe Cucumbers Gourds Peppers Pumpkins Raspberries Squash Strawberries Watermelons Wild Garlic Herbs Bee Balm Borage Catnip Coriander/Cilantro Fennel Lavender Mints Rosemary Sage Thyme Shrubs Blueberry Butterfly Bush Button Bush Honeysuckle Indigo Privet Trees Alder American Holly Basswood Black Gum Black Locust Buckeyes Catalpa Eastern Redbud Fruit Trees (especially Crabapples) Golden Rain Tree Hawthorns Hazels Linden Magnolia Maples Mountain Ash Sycamore Tulip Poplar Willows http://www.thedailygreen.com/going-green/tips/2790 -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
Fact or fiction?
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:57:51 -0500, wrote:
Billy wrote: In article , "Dan L." wrote: I used to think Roses were cool and part of all nice gardens. Now in my old age I hate the things. I now think there ugly. Not even worth putting in a vase. Years ago I had dozens of them. Now down to four bushes and tempted to rip them out. Trust me. You need roses. LOL! I'm with Dan on this one and somewhat grateful that he has "seen the light"; LOL! In fact, I dislike virtually all garden flowers. Even in my younger days, found flowers to be garish and ugly. Always regarded growing flowers to be as silly and as great a waste of resources and as abusive of the environment as maintaining a "lawn" and simply don't do either. In fact, I had hoped that by now enlightened jurisdictions in U.S.A. would have begun banning lawns (among the largest, most environmentally destructive of all large-scale "monocrops") and restricting flower gardening but, I guess it ain't gonna happen: The movies-induced vision of happy family in its quaint bungalow replete with picket fence and green, green lawn simply remains too strong, I guess. Man, don't _even_ get me started on those nasty-assed European honeybees-from-Hell and the ignorant, lazy, irresponsible twits who continue to allow them to escape into the environment, at large, and naturalize. I'm the opposite about flowers. I used to just work on getting wildflowers to grow, but when I started growing zinnia's, sunflowers etc for market, I got hooked. I would describe flowers as 'food for the soul.' So now I do both wildflowers and annuals. But I don't do lawn. |
Fact or fiction?
In article ,
wrote: Bill who putters wrote: Everyone knows how flowers grow. Nobody knows why. Old hippy statement. I know quite a number of "old hippies". They're my contemporaries; some are my neighbors. I knew quite a number of hippies that did not make it to old. I know some few who don't seem to have made it to "mature", much less to "old"! LOL! At any rate, I never heard none of them say such thing. Besides: Surely all but the superstitious among us realize the irrelevance of the "why". Perhaps, I did not put fine-enough point to "growing flowers" and "flower gardening" and, by extension, the Gaudy modernday "improved" mutants that parody their ancestral species. I made no mention of wild flowers yet you refer me to a versified self-piteous metaphor. That's rich: Barry save us from incipient intellectuals. In point of fact, I'm "the crazy old hippie down the road, with all of the cats, who plants wildflowers"! When allowed to do so (by the neighboring landowners), I even fence certain of them (no, the wildflowers) so they do not get mowed during their migration and in order to harvest their seeds when the time comes. My present personal "mission" is to restore Florida's native blue lupines to some semblance of plentitude on my tract AWA those of my nearest neighbors. It is my informed viewpoint and humble opinion that lawns and the assholes who continue to "maintain" them might not be nemesis but are, at the very least, unsightly and counterproductive annoyances on the landscape. You should lighten up. -- Bill Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA |
Fact or fiction?
In article ,
wrote: Billy wrote: What are you doing in a gardening group, if you don't like bees and flowers? Time to crawl back into your drink, and consider yourself "slimed". Which part of "rec.gardens.EDIBLE" exceeds your level of comprehension? The part where you "dislike virtually all garden flowers" and, "Man, don't _even_ get me started on those nasty-assed European honeybees-from-Hell and the ignorant, lazy, irresponsible twits who continue to allow them to escape into the environment". What part of flowers support bees, and bees support food production don't you get? As for being a hippie, you'd never pass in California, crack-pot, yeah, but never hippie. Have another drink, it's almost happy hour. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
Fact or fiction?
In article
, Billy wrote: In article , "Dan L." wrote: In article , Billy wrote: Compost formula = 2(30 parts brown/1 part green)+ 1(manure) BIG WHOOPS. Make that Ex. 30 lbs (twigs, branches, dried leaves) + 1 lbs (grass clippings, pulled weeds, plant trimmings) + 15.5 lbs manure (no specific type mentioned). Sorry about that :O) Let it Rot!: The Gardener's Guide to Composting (Third Edition) (Storey's Down-to-Earth Guides) (Paperback) by Stu Campbell http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/158..._p14_i1?pf_rd_ m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1HT31JNNBYN5BXFZS2EA&pf_rd_t=101 &pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846 Amazon is definitely a curse. I just have the "The Rodale Book of Composting: Easy Methods for Every Gardener" 1992. An old outdated book, has nothing on handling wood. "Let it Rot!' is on order :) Uh, in the future, you may want to check it out through the library first. Just remember, I didn't recommend it ;O) The best library there is, is my my front room. The nearest library is 20 miles away, round trip 40, the gas cost and the drive time and book searching time is a waste of time. If I truly liked the book I would buy it anyways plus the cost of gas and time would go toward a new book delivered directly to my home with free shipping. I would rather have the local governments to provide free wireless internet access to the public and give low cost computers to those that need one. Then close the public libraries along with all police (for profit) stations (truly a waste of tax payers money and a tool for the rich). Todays libraries look like homeless centers. From the Cynic! One headache is Rose Bush trimmings, A real pain in the ... In past I just simply buried them in the ground. I see I should have buried them with other compost materials. I used to think Roses were cool and part of all nice gardens. Now in my old age I hate the things. I now think there ugly. Not even worth putting in a vase. Years ago I had dozens of them. Now down to four bushes and tempted to rip them out. Trust me. You need roses. I trust no one! WHY do I need roses (thorny weed in my recommended book). -- Enjoy Life... Dan Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. |
Fact or fiction?
In article ,
"Dan L." wrote: In article , Billy wrote: In article , "Dan L." wrote: In article , Billy wrote: Compost formula = 2(30 parts brown/1 part green)+ 1(manure) BIG WHOOPS. Make that Ex. 30 lbs (twigs, branches, dried leaves) + 1 lbs (grass clippings, pulled weeds, plant trimmings) + 15.5 lbs manure (no specific type mentioned). Sorry about that :O) Let it Rot!: The Gardener's Guide to Composting (Third Edition) (Storey's Down-to-Earth Guides) (Paperback) by Stu Campbell http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/158...w_p14_i1?pf_rd _ m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1HT31JNNBYN5BXFZS2EA&pf_rd_t=10 1 &pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846 Amazon is definitely a curse. I just have the "The Rodale Book of Composting: Easy Methods for Every Gardener" 1992. An old outdated book, has nothing on handling wood. "Let it Rot!' is on order :) Uh, in the future, you may want to check it out through the library first. Just remember, I didn't recommend it ;O) The best library there is, is my my front room. The nearest library is 20 miles away, round trip 40, the gas cost and the drive time and book searching time is a waste of time. If I truly liked the book I would buy it anyways plus the cost of gas and time would go toward a new book delivered directly to my home with free shipping. I would rather have the local governments to provide free wireless internet access to the public and give low cost computers to those that need one. Then close the public libraries along with all police (for profit) stations (truly a waste of tax payers money and a tool for the rich). Todays libraries look like homeless centers. From the Cynic! Huh? I do my search and request on line. Then the book arrives at the library, 2 mi. away, which I need to pass anyway to go to the nursery or food shopping. My wife is in the process of wrapping "The No.1 Ladies Detective Agency". I would have hated to buy all 9 (?) books. Anyway, I prefer to preview what I buy, and then buy a couple of books a month. This will only last until Aug., when I return to the salt mines of Moria. One headache is Rose Bush trimmings, A real pain in the ... In past I just simply buried them in the ground. I see I should have buried them with other compost materials. I used to think Roses were cool and part of all nice gardens. Now in my old age I hate the things. I now think there ugly. Not even worth putting in a vase. Years ago I had dozens of them. Now down to four bushes and tempted to rip them out. Trust me. You need roses. I trust no one! WHY do I need roses (thorny weed in my recommended book). "We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses." --Abraham Lincoln -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
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In article ,
wrote: Billy wrote: In article , "Dan L." wrote: I used to think Roses were cool and part of all nice gardens. Now in my old age I hate the things. I now think there ugly. Not even worth putting in a vase. Years ago I had dozens of them. Now down to four bushes and tempted to rip them out. Trust me. You need roses. LOL! I'm with Dan on this one and somewhat grateful that he has "seen the light"; LOL! In fact, I dislike virtually all garden flowers. Even in my younger days, found flowers to be garish and ugly. Always regarded growing flowers to be as silly and as great a waste of resources and as abusive of the environment as maintaining a "lawn" and simply don't do either. In fact, I had hoped that by now enlightened jurisdictions in U.S.A. would have begun banning lawns (among the largest, most environmentally destructive of all large-scale "monocrops") and restricting flower gardening but, I guess it ain't gonna happen: The movies-induced vision of happy family in its quaint bungalow replete with picket fence and green, green lawn simply remains too strong, I guess. Man, don't _even_ get me started on those nasty-assed European honeybees-from-Hell and the ignorant, lazy, irresponsible twits who continue to allow them to escape into the environment, at large, and naturalize. My lawn has been destroyed by chickens which are not caged, my vegetable garden is caged. However, I like those european honeybees from Italy they are mild creatures and I like their honey. Bees belong in the natural environment. If they escape in a swarm too bad, prove they belong to me neighbor! Flowers are needed in my garden for the nectar that bees need to survive. I need a variety of flowers that bloom at different times of the year, food for the bees. Roses however provide little in return for the amount of work needed to care for them. If you don't like Roses, lawns, flowers and honey bees. What do you like in a garden? Rocks and Sand? -- Enjoy Life... Dan Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. |
Fact or fiction?
In article ,
"Dan L." wrote: In article , wrote: Billy wrote: In article , "Dan L." wrote: I used to think Roses were cool and part of all nice gardens. Now in my old age I hate the things. I now think there ugly. Not even worth putting in a vase. Years ago I had dozens of them. Now down to four bushes and tempted to rip them out. Trust me. You need roses. LOL! I'm with Dan on this one and somewhat grateful that he has "seen the light"; LOL! In fact, I dislike virtually all garden flowers. Even in my younger days, found flowers to be garish and ugly. Always regarded growing flowers to be as silly and as great a waste of resources and as abusive of the environment as maintaining a "lawn" and simply don't do either. In fact, I had hoped that by now enlightened jurisdictions in U.S.A. would have begun banning lawns (among the largest, most environmentally destructive of all large-scale "monocrops") and restricting flower gardening but, I guess it ain't gonna happen: The movies-induced vision of happy family in its quaint bungalow replete with picket fence and green, green lawn simply remains too strong, I guess. Man, don't _even_ get me started on those nasty-assed European honeybees-from-Hell and the ignorant, lazy, irresponsible twits who continue to allow them to escape into the environment, at large, and naturalize. My lawn has been destroyed by chickens which are not caged, my vegetable garden is caged. However, I like those european honeybees from Italy they are mild creatures and I like their honey. Bees belong in the natural environment. If they escape in a swarm too bad, prove they belong to me neighbor! Flowers are needed in my garden for the nectar that bees need to survive. I need a variety of flowers that bloom at different times of the year, food for the bees. Roses however provide little in return for the amount of work needed to care for them. If you don't like Roses, lawns, flowers and honey bees. What do you like in a garden? Rocks and Sand? Some times it is just space and intent and if the garden muse gifts you beauty. http://gardendesignpictures.com/imag...pictures10.jpg -- Bill Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA |
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In article , Charlie wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:07:19 -0500, wrote: Billy wrote: What are you doing in a gardening group, if you don't like bees and flowers? Time to crawl back into your drink, and consider yourself "slimed". Which part of "rec.gardens.EDIBLE" exceeds your level of comprehension? "This is one of the disadvantages of wine: it makes a man mistake words for thought." ~~Samuel Johnson And you accuse *me* of sliming a group. Go have another drink, you POS. I do believe you have outdone sheldon, in the gin rummy category. Charlie "Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and dreams. If I didn't drink this beer, they might be out of work and their dreams would be shattered. Then I say to myself, it is better that I drink this beer and let their dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver." ~Jack Handey Just got to believe in "Flower Power", right on. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
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"Dan L." wrote in message
In article , "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: "Dan L." wrote in message Permaculture by Toby Hemenway" Now that name is a blast from the past. He used to post in the alt.permaculture newsgroup many moons ago. He probably got rich from your postings :) LOL. Well I did find one of my posts repeated in full (with no attribution) on a commercial site. |
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In article
, Billy wrote: "We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses." --Abraham Lincoln I like the quote. The quote alone is one good reason to keep at least one rose bush alive :) -- Enjoy Life... Dan Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. |
Fact or fiction?
In article ,
"Dan L." wrote: In article , Billy wrote: "We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses." --Abraham Lincoln I like the quote. The quote alone is one good reason to keep at least one rose bush alive :) The bees will thank you ;O) -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
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