SFG
Was just looking at All New Square Foot Gardening: Grow More in Less
Space by Mel Bartholomew. They sure have some nice pics of Mel, standing among raised gardens. He says he likes to sell, excuse me, teach to new gardeners who aren't weighed down by prior knowledge, like the need to renew the soils nitrogen, uh huh. Anyone tempted to buy Mel's book would do well to look at "How to Grow More Vegetables" by John Jeavons http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias% 3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0 first. There is more practicle information and no necessity of laying out a physical grid. There are no pictures of John, IIRC, but the book is information dense. Unfortunately, he doesn't address lasagna gardening, but then neither does Mel. Check it out at better libraries near you. I'm sorry, but Mel looks really lame. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
SFG
Billy wrote:
Was just looking at All New Square Foot Gardening: Grow More in Less Space by Mel Bartholomew. They sure have some nice pics of Mel, standing among raised gardens. He says he likes to sell, excuse me, teach to new gardeners who aren't weighed down by prior knowledge, like the need to renew the soils nitrogen, uh huh. Anyone tempted to buy Mel's book would do well to look at "How to Grow More Vegetables" by John Jeavons http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias% 3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0 first. There is more practicle information and no necessity of laying out a physical grid. There are no pictures of John, IIRC, but the book is information dense. Unfortunately, he doesn't address lasagna gardening, but then neither does Mel. Have you got a good resource on lasagna gardening? I can't even find the thread we had on it. I've got about 20 SF or so of space by the curb that gets good sun from 11AM on. Too sunny for english ivy (which is everywhere else) and soil is too poor for anything else. Even the weeds are suffering. Sounds like a lasagna farm to me. Jeff Check it out at better libraries near you. I'm sorry, but Mel looks really lame. |
SFG
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: Was just looking at All New Square Foot Gardening: Grow More in Less Space by Mel Bartholomew. They sure have some nice pics of Mel, standing among raised gardens. He says he likes to sell, excuse me, teach to new gardeners who aren't weighed down by prior knowledge, like the need to renew the soils nitrogen, uh huh. Anyone tempted to buy Mel's book would do well to look at "How to Grow More Vegetables" by John Jeavons http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias% 3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0 first. There is more practicle information and no necessity of laying out a physical grid. There are no pictures of John, IIRC, but the book is information dense. Unfortunately, he doesn't address lasagna gardening, but then neither does Mel. Have you got a good resource on lasagna gardening? I can't even find the thread we had on it. I've got about 20 SF or so of space by the curb that gets good sun from 11AM on. Too sunny for english ivy (which is everywhere else) and soil is too poor for anything else. Even the weeds are suffering. Sounds like a lasagna farm to me. Jeff http://organicgardening.about.com/od...en/a/lasagnaga rden.htm -- Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden What use one more wake up call? |
SFG
In article ,
Bill who putters wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: Was just looking at All New Square Foot Gardening: Grow More in Less Space by Mel Bartholomew. They sure have some nice pics of Mel, standing among raised gardens. He says he likes to sell, excuse me, teach to new gardeners who aren't weighed down by prior knowledge, like the need to renew the soils nitrogen, uh huh. Anyone tempted to buy Mel's book would do well to look at "How to Grow More Vegetables" by John Jeavons http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias% 3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0 first. There is more practicle information and no necessity of laying out a physical grid. There are no pictures of John, IIRC, but the book is information dense. Unfortunately, he doesn't address lasagna gardening, but then neither does Mel. Have you got a good resource on lasagna gardening? I can't even find the thread we had on it. I've got about 20 SF or so of space by the curb that gets good sun from 11AM on. Too sunny for english ivy (which is everywhere else) and soil is too poor for anything else. Even the weeds are suffering. Sounds like a lasagna farm to me. Jeff http://organicgardening.about.com/od...en/a/lasagnaga rden.htm I guess through creativity or laziness, we all modify what we learn. Two comments on the above URL. First, digging isn't needed in lasagna gardening, BUT dug, or double dug the first year, and the first year only, will speed up the development of your beds. Left to their own devices, lasagna beds will eventually develop deep rich soil, but digging, with the appropriate amendments (manure, phosphate, wood ash, organic material) speeds up this development. After the first year, the soil is left to the microbes, worms, insects and small mammals to turn and aerate. You may want to catch the small mammals, but you don't want to undo their work. This is my first complaint with Mel and his "Square Foot Gardening". First he announces his "New Soil - Mel's Mix" 1/3 Peat Moss 1/3 Vermiculite 1/3 Blended Compost Then he proposes a soil depth of 6". "For years, experts said your garden soil had to be improved at least 12 inches deep; some even said 18 inches. But my experiments were proving otherwise, especially when I used good homemade compost as one-third of the mix. I asked myself, "If six inches of perfect soil is good enough for windowboxes and commercial greenhouse benches, why not in backyard gardens?" Window boxes, I'm sure would benefit from more soil, but are under space constraints, and commercial greenhouses are labor intensive. Then Mel says "no fertilizer" only use compost, except he recommends up to 20% stable or poultry manures in his compost. It's a nicely produced book with lots of color pictures, but overall it seems to me to be mostly flash. Anyway, lasagna gardening, the above URL calls for 2 vertical ft. of mulch on the vegetable beds, mine are usually 3 - 4". Just make sure that there is always mulch, no matter how thick it is. If you are getting weeds, you'll probably want to increase the depth of the mulch. ----- The World Without Us (Paperback) by Alan Weisman http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-...2427905/ref=sr _1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274206221&sr=1-1 p.191 At Harpenden, near a low stone circle and adjacent stem wall that are the remains of a Roman shrine, an estate was founded in the early 13th century. Rothamsted Manor, built of bricks and timbers and surrounded by a moat and 300 acres, changed hands five times over as many centuries, accruing more rooms until an eight-year-old boy named John Bennet Lawes inherited it in 1814. .. . . His story began with bones‹although first, some would say, came chalk. Centuries of Hertfordshire farmers had dug the chalky remains of ancient sea creatures that underlie local clays to spread on their furrows, because it helped their turnips and grains. From Oxford lectures, Lawes knew that liming their fields didn't nourish plants so much as soften the soil's acidic re- sistance. But might anything actually feed crops? A German chemist, Justus von Liebig, had recently noted that powdered bonemeal restored vigor to soil. Soaking it first in dilute sulfuric acid, he wrote, made it even more digestible. Lawes tried it on a turnip field. He was impressed. Justus von Liebig is remembered as the father of the fertilizer industry, but he probably would have traded that honor for John Bennet Lawes . . . (who) Patent in hand, was (soon) selling "superphosphate" to all his neighbors. Once again, the hapless von Liebig had identified nitrogen as a key component of amino and nucleic acids vital to plants, yet failed to exploit his discovery. While von Liebig published his findings, Lawes was patenting nitrate mixtures. To learn which were most effective, in 1843 Lawes began a series of test plots still going today, which makes Rothamsted Research both the world's oldest agricultural station, and also the site of the world's longest continual field experiments. By the 1850s, it was obvious that when both nitrogen and phosphate were applied, yields increased, and that trace minerals helped some crops and slowed others. (Lawes) biographer quotes him as declaring that any farmer who thought he could "grow as fine crops by the aid of a few pounds of some chemical substances as by the same number of tons of farm-yard dung" was deluded. Law's advised anyone planting vegetables and garden greens that, if it were him, he would "select a locality where I could obtain a large supply of yard manure at a cheap rate." ' ---- And that seems to hold true today, as well. ----- The "World Without Us" for its morbid title is a real "page turner", that takes you through information that you've probably never considered. If you read and liked "Guns, Germs, and Steel": The Fates of Human Societies by Jared Diamond http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Ste...393061310/ref= sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269536106&sr=1-1 you'll like this book as well. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
SFG
Billy wrote:
In article , Bill who putters wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: snip s of color pictures, but overall it seems to me to be mostly flash. Anyway, lasagna gardening, the above URL calls for 2 vertical ft. of mulch on the vegetable beds, mine are usually 3 - 4". Just make sure that there is always mulch, no matter how thick it is. If you are getting weeds, you'll probably want to increase the depth of the mulch. I have an abundance of pine straw. My take is that this doesn't make good compost as it breaks down slowly, but makes good mulch. http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...335925165.html I'll get this started today, in the meantime I have an abundance of green, and not much other brown. So, I'm thinking... We had at one time a horse in the neighborhood (I live in Atlanta proper) and chickens across the road (I now know why a chicken crosses the road: It doesn't care). But the chickens are all long gone. I've had a long running compost pile at the dead end of my street that leads to the woods. Unfortunately it now looks more like a garbage dump, with shingles and all kinds of plastic tossed on. Sigh! Seems like someone can always turn a good idea into hell. The reverse is not so easy. Sometimes I think I live here mostly for amusement. Jeff |
SFG
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Bill who putters wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: snip s of color pictures, but overall it seems to me to be mostly flash. Anyway, lasagna gardening, the above URL calls for 2 vertical ft. of mulch on the vegetable beds, mine are usually 3 - 4". Just make sure that there is always mulch, no matter how thick it is. If you are getting weeds, you'll probably want to increase the depth of the mulch. I have an abundance of pine straw. My take is that this doesn't make good compost as it breaks down slowly, but makes good mulch. http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...335925165.html I'll get this started today, in the meantime I have an abundance of green, and not much other brown. So, I'm thinking... We had at one time a horse in the neighborhood (I live in Atlanta proper) and chickens across the road (I now know why a chicken crosses the road: It doesn't care). But the chickens are all long gone. I've had a long running compost pile at the dead end of my street that leads to the woods. Unfortunately it now looks more like a garbage dump, with shingles and all kinds of plastic tossed on. Sigh! Seems like someone can always turn a good idea into hell. The reverse is not so easy. Sometimes I think I live here mostly for amusement. Jeff Well, duh, I can hear the cosmic laughter from here ;O) I don't see anything wrong with making conifers part of your mulch, but remember that the soil flora and fauna are counting on the breakdown of the mulch for nourishment, So, make sure that there is always some leaves or straw in the mulch as well. If you ever find a reference to pine needles lowering/not lowering pH, I'd like to see it. I have my blueberries planted next to a redwood stump. They don't seem to be all that vigorous, but the soil should be fairly acidic. No, I haven't checked the soil pH. Real men don't ask for directions, we wait until we're out of gas ;O) -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
SFG
Billy wrote:
In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Bill who putters wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: snip s of color pictures, but overall it seems to me to be mostly flash. Anyway, lasagna gardening, the above URL calls for 2 vertical ft. of mulch on the vegetable beds, mine are usually 3 - 4". Just make sure that there is always mulch, no matter how thick it is. If you are getting weeds, you'll probably want to increase the depth of the mulch. I have an abundance of pine straw. My take is that this doesn't make good compost as it breaks down slowly, but makes good mulch. http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...335925165.html I'll get this started today, in the meantime I have an abundance of green, and not much other brown. So, I'm thinking... We had at one time a horse in the neighborhood (I live in Atlanta proper) and chickens across the road (I now know why a chicken crosses the road: It doesn't care). But the chickens are all long gone. I've had a long running compost pile at the dead end of my street that leads to the woods. Unfortunately it now looks more like a garbage dump, with shingles and all kinds of plastic tossed on. Sigh! Seems like someone can always turn a good idea into hell. The reverse is not so easy. Sometimes I think I live here mostly for amusement. Jeff Well, duh, I can hear the cosmic laughter from here ;O) I don't see anything wrong with making conifers part of your mulch, but remember that the soil flora and fauna are counting on the breakdown of the mulch for nourishment, So, make sure that there is always some leaves or straw in the mulch as well. If you ever find a reference to pine needles lowering/not lowering pH, I'd like to see it. It looks like a short term spike when they are composting: http://www.finegardening.com/how-to/...s-compost.aspx The acidic conditions created by pine needles are only transitory. As organic materials decompose, they typically cause an initial decrease in pH (increase in acidity), but over time, the pH rises so that the acidity of the composted material becomes near neutral. Even if pine needles did not equilibrate to a near neutral pH, or if you wanted to avoid that initial burst of acidity, you could still use them in your compost pile with good effect. http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/fo...ad.php?t=13169 Curious about pine needle Ph, I soaked some dry pine needles, put them in the blender and checked the Ph. Around 6.5, which is the same as my tap water. I run the mower over the dried needles and use them for mulch. Pulling the mulch aside to top-dress with compost or whatever is the only drawback. I do notice that the hostas mulched with pine needles have less slug/snail damage. So it's a trade-off. http://www.landscape-and-garden.com/...mendments.aspx Using Pine Needles and Pine Bark Most people and gardeners used to believe that pine needles and pine bark will result in rendering garden soil acidic. And in general most gardeners used to believe that any part of any coniferous tree will subsequently be acidic. However, in its raw state, all coniferous trees are not acidic. This means that the pine needles that gardeners use to apply as mulch on top of soil around a plant, or even in the planting hole will not alter the pH of the garden soil. In fact it is only AFTER the pine needles have been properly composted that it will result in changes in the pH of your garden soil. Nowadays it is not surprising that the seasoned gardeners have found that pine needles and pine bark do not break down into compost easily. It is quite a lengthy process if you want to incorporate pine and pine products into the ingredients of your compost recipe. This is thus also the reason why pine needles and pine bark makes for excellent, good, long, lasting mulch that will keep the soil moist and cool the roots of plants. This means that pine needles and pine bark is not great additives to use as soil amendment when you want to alter the pH of your garden soil. You would serve your garden far better by making use of good compost which generally has an acid pH. Thus if you want to change the pH of your soil, you should rather plant with a good compost or acidic peat. If you need to lower the alkaline level of your garden soil to make your soil more acidic then you should plant with plenty of good compost, or use an acidic soil/compost mixture which has the advantage of composted bark incorporated into the mixture. I have my blueberries planted next to a redwood stump. They don't seem to be all that vigorous, but the soil should be fairly acidic. From what I gather you want to push it far. Mine seem as happy or happier than anything I have and they are in peat. No, I haven't checked the soil pH. Real men don't ask for directions, we wait until we're out of gas ;O) ;O) Jeff |
SFG
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Bill who putters wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: snip s of color pictures, but overall it seems to me to be mostly flash. Anyway, lasagna gardening, the above URL calls for 2 vertical ft. of mulch on the vegetable beds, mine are usually 3 - 4". Just make sure that there is always mulch, no matter how thick it is. If you are getting weeds, you'll probably want to increase the depth of the mulch. I have an abundance of pine straw. My take is that this doesn't make good compost as it breaks down slowly, but makes good mulch. http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...335925165.html I'll get this started today, in the meantime I have an abundance of green, and not much other brown. So, I'm thinking... We had at one time a horse in the neighborhood (I live in Atlanta proper) and chickens across the road (I now know why a chicken crosses the road: It doesn't care). But the chickens are all long gone. I've had a long running compost pile at the dead end of my street that leads to the woods. Unfortunately it now looks more like a garbage dump, with shingles and all kinds of plastic tossed on. Sigh! Seems like someone can always turn a good idea into hell. The reverse is not so easy. Sometimes I think I live here mostly for amusement. Jeff Well, duh, I can hear the cosmic laughter from here ;O) I don't see anything wrong with making conifers part of your mulch, but remember that the soil flora and fauna are counting on the breakdown of the mulch for nourishment, So, make sure that there is always some leaves or straw in the mulch as well. If you ever find a reference to pine needles lowering/not lowering pH, I'd like to see it. It looks like a short term spike when they are composting: http://www.finegardening.com/how-to/...s-compost.aspx The acidic conditions created by pine needles are only transitory. As organic materials decompose, they typically cause an initial decrease in pH (increase in acidity), but over time, the pH rises so that the acidity of the composted material becomes near neutral. Even if pine needles did not equilibrate to a near neutral pH, or if you wanted to avoid that initial burst of acidity, you could still use them in your compost pile with good effect. http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/fo...ad.php?t=13169 Curious about pine needle Ph, I soaked some dry pine needles, put them in the blender and checked the Ph. Around 6.5, which is the same as my tap water. I run the mower over the dried needles and use them for mulch. Pulling the mulch aside to top-dress with compost or whatever is the only drawback. I do notice that the hostas mulched with pine needles have less slug/snail damage. So it's a trade-off. http://www.landscape-and-garden.com/...mendments.aspx Using Pine Needles and Pine Bark Most people and gardeners used to believe that pine needles and pine bark will result in rendering garden soil acidic. And in general most gardeners used to believe that any part of any coniferous tree will subsequently be acidic. However, in its raw state, all coniferous trees are not acidic. This means that the pine needles that gardeners use to apply as mulch on top of soil around a plant, or even in the planting hole will not alter the pH of the garden soil. In fact it is only AFTER the pine needles have been properly composted that it will result in changes in the pH of your garden soil. Nowadays it is not surprising that the seasoned gardeners have found that pine needles and pine bark do not break down into compost easily. It is quite a lengthy process if you want to incorporate pine and pine products into the ingredients of your compost recipe. This is thus also the reason why pine needles and pine bark makes for excellent, good, long, lasting mulch that will keep the soil moist and cool the roots of plants. This means that pine needles and pine bark is not great additives to use as soil amendment when you want to alter the pH of your garden soil. You would serve your garden far better by making use of good compost which generally has an acid pH. Thus if you want to change the pH of your soil, you should rather plant with a good compost or acidic peat. If you need to lower the alkaline level of your garden soil to make your soil more acidic then you should plant with plenty of good compost, or use an acidic soil/compost mixture which has the advantage of composted bark incorporated into the mixture. I have my blueberries planted next to a redwood stump. They don't seem to be all that vigorous, but the soil should be fairly acidic. From what I gather you want to push it far. Mine seem as happy or happier than anything I have and they are in peat. No, I haven't checked the soil pH. Real men don't ask for directions, we wait until we're out of gas ;O) ;O) Jeff Typically, conifer forests have low pH soils, I suspect that I am confusing cause with effect. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
SFG
Billy wrote:
In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Bill who putters wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: snip snip No, I haven't checked the soil pH. Real men don't ask for directions, we wait until we're out of gas ;O) ;O) Jeff Typically, conifer forests have low pH soils, I suspect that I am confusing cause with effect. I don't think it's clear cut. Not much else grows in a pine forest, there is a lot of pine straw that lingers until it burns. I think the overall environment shapes the soil and it's pH, what little soil there is has poor construction. From what I can tell deciduous leaves are more acidic than coniferous, it's as if pine straw in the garden is completely different than pinestraw in the forest. http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...944526608.html All organic decomposition that takes place in soils (or compost bins) is acidifying. That is, the decomposition process generates acid. If the material being decomposed is full of bases, it is possible that the end result is not acidic. I am no pine needle expert, but I very seriously doubt that they are full of bases. Coniferous trees tend to suck their nutrients back into the tree before dropping old needles (unlike deciduous trees). Pine needles are very different from oak leaves for this reason. So given the fact that decomposing needles generates acid, and that pine needles probably do not contain much in the way of bases, my guess would be that yes, they will acidify the soil. Whether it will be enough of a change to be noticeable is a different story. It would depend on the buffering capacity (the ability to resist change) of the soil. Also, it looks line pine forest have very high C/N ratios http://www.fsl.orst.edu/~waring/Publ...orestEncyc.pdf Leaf litter, wood, and root materials produced by evergreen conifers usually contain twice the amount of carbon (C) in relation to nitrogen found in corresponding materials produced by deciduous angiosperms. As a result, the decomposition of coniferous litter is usually 3–4 times slower than hardwood litter, leading to a greater accumulation of forest floor litter under conifers (Figure 1). With time, as litter decays, soils under coniferous forests maintain high C–N ratios and serve as storage sites for amounts of carbon that far exceed above-ground biomass, and have turnover times of centuries and millennia. I think it's the lack of decomposition from too little green N, some acid must then leach out, that is all there is as there is no buffer. But, what do I know! Being wrong is more predictable than being right. I have some monster azaleas growing under pines. I don't think this is unusual, I'll have to test the soil some day. There's a foot or more of pine straw in places. Jeff |
SFG
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Bill who putters wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: snip snip No, I haven't checked the soil pH. Real men don't ask for directions, we wait until we're out of gas ;O) ;O) Jeff Typically, conifer forests have low pH soils, I suspect that I am confusing cause with effect. I don't think it's clear cut. Not much else grows in a pine forest, there is a lot of pine straw that lingers until it burns. I think the overall environment shapes the soil and it's pH, what little soil there is has poor construction. From what I can tell deciduous leaves are more acidic than coniferous, it's as if pine straw in the garden is completely different than pinestraw in the forest. http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...944526608.html All organic decomposition that takes place in soils (or compost bins) is acidifying. That is, the decomposition process generates acid. If the material being decomposed is full of bases, it is possible that the end result is not acidic. I am no pine needle expert, but I very seriously doubt that they are full of bases. Coniferous trees tend to suck their nutrients back into the tree before dropping old needles (unlike deciduous trees). Pine needles are very different from oak leaves for this reason. So given the fact that decomposing needles generates acid, and that pine needles probably do not contain much in the way of bases, my guess would be that yes, they will acidify the soil. Whether it will be enough of a change to be noticeable is a different story. It would depend on the buffering capacity (the ability to resist change) of the soil. Also, it looks line pine forest have very high C/N ratios http://www.fsl.orst.edu/~waring/Publ...orestEncyc.pdf Leaf litter, wood, and root materials produced by evergreen conifers usually contain twice the amount of carbon (C) in relation to nitrogen found in corresponding materials produced by deciduous angiosperms. As a result, the decomposition of coniferous litter is usually 3*4 times slower than hardwood litter, leading to a greater accumulation of forest floor litter under conifers (Figure 1). With time, as litter decays, soils under coniferous forests maintain high C*N ratios and serve as storage sites for amounts of carbon that far exceed above-ground biomass, and have turnover times of centuries and millennia. I think it's the lack of decomposition from too little green N, some acid must then leach out, that is all there is as there is no buffer. But, what do I know! Being wrong is more predictable than being right. I have some monster azaleas growing under pines. I don't think this is unusual, I'll have to test the soil some day. There's a foot or more of pine straw in places. Jeff Apparently, lots of rain will drive the pH of the soil down. Soils and acidity Under conditions in which rainfall exceeds evapotranspiration (leaching) during most of the year, the basic soil cations (Ca, Mg, K) are gradually depleted and replaced with cations held in colloidal soil reserves, leading to soil acidity. Clay soils often contain iron and aluminium hydroxides, which affect the retention and availability of fertilizer cations and anions in acidic soils. Soil acidification may also occur by addition of hydrogen, due to decomposition of organic matter, acid-forming fertilizers, and exchange of basic cations for H+ by the roots. Soil acidity is reduced by volatilization and denitrification of nitrogen. Under flooded conditions, the soil pH value increases. In addition, the following nitrate fertilizers -- calcium nitrate, magnesium nitrate, potassium nitrate and sodium nitrate -- also increase the soil pH value. Some alkaline soils have calcium in the form of limestone that is not chemically available to plants. In this case sulphuric acid [edit] Factors affecting soil pH The pH value of a soil is influenced by the kinds of parent materials from which the soil was formed. Soils developed from basic rocks generally have higher pH values than those formed from acid rocks. Rainfall also affects soil pH. Water passing through the soil leaches basic nutrients such as calcium and magnesium from the soil. They are replaced by acidic elements such as aluminium and iron. For this reason, soils formed under high rainfall conditions are more acidic than those formed under arid (dry) conditions. Rainfall and acid affect the soil a lot. [edit] Soil life and pH A pH level of around 6.3-6.8 is also the optimum range preferred by most soil bacteria, although fungi, moulds, and anaerobic bacteria have a broader tolerance and tend to multiply at lower pH values. Therefore, more acidic soils tend to be susceptible to souring and putrefaction, rather than undergoing the sweet decay processes associated with the decay of organic matter, which immeasurably benefit the soil. These processes also prefer near-neutral conditions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_pH#How_acidic_soil_forms But all thing being equal, apparently conifers can change the pH as well. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...6T6X-3V8KST5-1 B&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F28%2F1998&_rdoc=1&_fmt= high&_orig=search&_sort =d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1346640603&_rer unOrigin=google&_acct=C 000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5= 9063338fcb4564ecf07836d 69d60c9c1 http://soil.scijournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/54/5/1427 I was thinking that fungi modified the soil pH, but apparently they are just opportunists who can thrive in low pH soil. Anywho, it looks like a steady supply of pine boughs would lower the soil pH. How many centuries that may take is another question. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
SFG
Billy wrote:
In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Bill who putters wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: snip Apparently, lots of rain will drive the pH of the soil down. I'm struck by the pH world map. Little rain = Alkaline. It's almost a map of the world's deserts. It's been an insight into how the globe functions, I never thought SFG would take me there! Jeff Soils and acidity Under conditions in which rainfall exceeds evapotranspiration (leaching) during most of the year, the basic soil cations (Ca, Mg, K) are gradually depleted and replaced with cations held in colloidal soil reserves, leading to soil acidity. Clay soils often contain iron and aluminium hydroxides, which affect the retention and availability of fertilizer cations and anions in acidic soils. Soil acidification may also occur by addition of hydrogen, due to decomposition of organic matter, acid-forming fertilizers, and exchange of basic cations for H+ by the roots. Soil acidity is reduced by volatilization and denitrification of nitrogen. Under flooded conditions, the soil pH value increases. In addition, the following nitrate fertilizers -- calcium nitrate, magnesium nitrate, potassium nitrate and sodium nitrate -- also increase the soil pH value. Some alkaline soils have calcium in the form of limestone that is not chemically available to plants. In this case sulphuric acid [edit] Factors affecting soil pH The pH value of a soil is influenced by the kinds of parent materials from which the soil was formed. Soils developed from basic rocks generally have higher pH values than those formed from acid rocks. Rainfall also affects soil pH. Water passing through the soil leaches basic nutrients such as calcium and magnesium from the soil. They are replaced by acidic elements such as aluminium and iron. For this reason, soils formed under high rainfall conditions are more acidic than those formed under arid (dry) conditions. Rainfall and acid affect the soil a lot. [edit] Soil life and pH A pH level of around 6.3-6.8 is also the optimum range preferred by most soil bacteria, although fungi, moulds, and anaerobic bacteria have a broader tolerance and tend to multiply at lower pH values. Therefore, more acidic soils tend to be susceptible to souring and putrefaction, rather than undergoing the sweet decay processes associated with the decay of organic matter, which immeasurably benefit the soil. These processes also prefer near-neutral conditions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_pH#How_acidic_soil_forms But all thing being equal, apparently conifers can change the pH as well. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...6T6X-3V8KST5-1 B&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F28%2F1998&_rdoc=1&_fmt= high&_orig=search&_sort =d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1346640603&_rer unOrigin=google&_acct=C 000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5= 9063338fcb4564ecf07836d 69d60c9c1 http://soil.scijournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/54/5/1427 I was thinking that fungi modified the soil pH, but apparently they are just opportunists who can thrive in low pH soil. Anywho, it looks like a steady supply of pine boughs would lower the soil pH. How many centuries that may take is another question. |
SFG
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: In article , Bill who putters wrote: In article , Jeff Thies wrote: Billy wrote: snip Apparently, lots of rain will drive the pH of the soil down. I'm struck by the pH world map. Little rain = Alkaline. It's almost a map of the world's deserts. It's been an insight into how the globe functions, I never thought SFG would take me there! Jeff That's what's crazy about teaching to the test. Memorizing facts out of context when everything is connected to everything. Start with French door knobs of the 18th Century and the next thing you know your studying metallurgy, crystallography, geology, chemistry, physics, culture, language, and politics. If we had a real school system, a student would choose a subject and make weekly reports, no matter where the studies lead him/her. Little rain: alkaline. Lots of rain: acidic. Meteorology, astronomy, chemistry, crops, biology, nutrition, culture and all the different ways that they can send you.. As Bilbo Baggins used to say, "It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no telling where you might be swept off to." Soils and acidity Under conditions in which rainfall exceeds evapotranspiration (leaching) during most of the year, the basic soil cations (Ca, Mg, K) are gradually depleted and replaced with cations held in colloidal soil reserves, leading to soil acidity. Clay soils often contain iron and aluminium hydroxides, which affect the retention and availability of fertilizer cations and anions in acidic soils. Soil acidification may also occur by addition of hydrogen, due to decomposition of organic matter, acid-forming fertilizers, and exchange of basic cations for H+ by the roots. Soil acidity is reduced by volatilization and denitrification of nitrogen. Under flooded conditions, the soil pH value increases. In addition, the following nitrate fertilizers -- calcium nitrate, magnesium nitrate, potassium nitrate and sodium nitrate -- also increase the soil pH value. Some alkaline soils have calcium in the form of limestone that is not chemically available to plants. In this case sulphuric acid [edit] Factors affecting soil pH The pH value of a soil is influenced by the kinds of parent materials from which the soil was formed. Soils developed from basic rocks generally have higher pH values than those formed from acid rocks. Rainfall also affects soil pH. Water passing through the soil leaches basic nutrients such as calcium and magnesium from the soil. They are replaced by acidic elements such as aluminium and iron. For this reason, soils formed under high rainfall conditions are more acidic than those formed under arid (dry) conditions. Rainfall and acid affect the soil a lot. [edit] Soil life and pH A pH level of around 6.3-6.8 is also the optimum range preferred by most soil bacteria, although fungi, moulds, and anaerobic bacteria have a broader tolerance and tend to multiply at lower pH values. Therefore, more acidic soils tend to be susceptible to souring and putrefaction, rather than undergoing the sweet decay processes associated with the decay of organic matter, which immeasurably benefit the soil. These processes also prefer near-neutral conditions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_pH#How_acidic_soil_forms But all thing being equal, apparently conifers can change the pH as well. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...6T6X-3V8KST5-1 B&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F28%2F1998&_rdoc=1&_fmt= high&_orig=search&_sort =d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1346640603&_rer unOrigin=google&_acct=C 000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5= 9063338fcb4564ecf07836d 69d60c9c1 http://soil.scijournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/54/5/1427 I was thinking that fungi modified the soil pH, but apparently they are just opportunists who can thrive in low pH soil. Anywho, it looks like a steady supply of pine boughs would lower the soil pH. How many centuries that may take is another question. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html |
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