Was just looking at All New Square Foot Gardening: Grow More in Less
Space by Mel Bartholomew. They sure have some nice pics of Mel, standing
among raised gardens. He says he likes to sell, excuse me, teach to new
gardeners who aren't weighed down by prior knowledge, like the need to
renew the soils nitrogen, uh huh.

Anyone tempted to buy Mel's book would do well to look at "How to Grow
More Vegetables" by John Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias%
3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0
first.

There is more practicle information and no necessity of laying out a
physical grid. There are no pictures of John, IIRC, but the book is
information dense. Unfortunately, he doesn't address lasagna gardening,
but then neither does Mel. Check it out at better libraries near you.
I'm sorry, but Mel looks really lame.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Billy wrote:
Was just looking at All New Square Foot Gardening: Grow More in Less
Space by Mel Bartholomew. They sure have some nice pics of Mel, standing
among raised gardens. He says he likes to sell, excuse me, teach to new
gardeners who aren't weighed down by prior knowledge, like the need to
renew the soils nitrogen, uh huh.

Anyone tempted to buy Mel's book would do well to look at "How to Grow
More Vegetables" by John Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias%
3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0
first.

There is more practicle information and no necessity of laying out a
physical grid. There are no pictures of John, IIRC, but the book is
information dense. Unfortunately, he doesn't address lasagna gardening,
but then neither does Mel.

Have you got a good resource on lasagna gardening? I can't even find
the thread we had on it.

I've got about 20 SF or so of space by the curb that gets good sun from
11AM on. Too sunny for english ivy (which is everywhere else) and soil
is too poor for anything else. Even the weeds are suffering. Sounds like
a lasagna farm to me.

Jeff


Check it out at better libraries near you.
I'm sorry, but Mel looks really lame.

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
Was just looking at All New Square Foot Gardening: Grow More in Less
Space by Mel Bartholomew. They sure have some nice pics of Mel, standing
among raised gardens. He says he likes to sell, excuse me, teach to new
gardeners who aren't weighed down by prior knowledge, like the need to
renew the soils nitrogen, uh huh.

Anyone tempted to buy Mel's book would do well to look at "How to Grow
More Vegetables" by John Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias%
3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0
first.

There is more practicle information and no necessity of laying out a
physical grid. There are no pictures of John, IIRC, but the book is
information dense. Unfortunately, he doesn't address lasagna gardening,
but then neither does Mel.

Have you got a good resource on lasagna gardening? I can't even find
the thread we had on it.

I've got about 20 SF or so of space by the curb that gets good sun from
11AM on. Too sunny for english ivy (which is everywhere else) and soil
is too poor for anything else. Even the weeds are suffering. Sounds like
a lasagna farm to me.

Jeff

http://organicgardening.about.com/od...en/a/lasagnaga
rden.htm

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
What use one more wake up call?

In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
Was just looking at All New Square Foot Gardening: Grow More in Less
Space by Mel Bartholomew. They sure have some nice pics of Mel, standing
among raised gardens. He says he likes to sell, excuse me, teach to new
gardeners who aren't weighed down by prior knowledge, like the need to
renew the soils nitrogen, uh huh.

Anyone tempted to buy Mel's book would do well to look at "How to Grow
More Vegetables" by John Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias%
3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0
first.

There is more practicle information and no necessity of laying out a
physical grid. There are no pictures of John, IIRC, but the book is
information dense. Unfortunately, he doesn't address lasagna gardening,
but then neither does Mel.

Have you got a good resource on lasagna gardening? I can't even find
the thread we had on it.

I've got about 20 SF or so of space by the curb that gets good sun from
11AM on. Too sunny for english ivy (which is everywhere else) and soil
is too poor for anything else. Even the weeds are suffering. Sounds like
a lasagna farm to me.

Jeff

http://organicgardening.about.com/od...en/a/lasagnaga
rden.htm

I guess through creativity or laziness, we all modify what we learn. Two
comments on the above URL. First, digging isn't needed in lasagna
gardening, BUT dug, or double dug the first year, and the first year
only, will speed up the development of your beds.

Left to their own devices, lasagna beds will eventually develop deep
rich soil, but digging, with the appropriate amendments (manure,
phosphate, wood ash, organic material) speeds up this development. After
the first year, the soil is left to the microbes, worms, insects and
small mammals to turn and aerate. You may want to catch the small
mammals, but you don't want to undo their work.

This is my first complaint with Mel and his "Square Foot Gardening".
First he announces his "New Soil - Mel's Mix"

1/3 Peat Moss

1/3 Vermiculite

1/3 Blended Compost

Then he proposes a soil depth of 6".
"For years, experts said your garden soil had to be improved at least
12 inches deep; some even said 18 inches. But my experiments were
proving otherwise, especially when I used good homemade compost
as one-third of the mix. I asked myself, "If six inches of perfect soil
is good enough for windowboxes and commercial greenhouse benches,
why not in backyard gardens?"
Window boxes, I'm sure would benefit from more soil, but are under space
constraints, and commercial greenhouses are labor intensive.

Then Mel says "no fertilizer" only use compost, except he recommends up
to 20% stable or poultry manures in his compost.

It's a nicely produced book with lots of color pictures, but overall it
seems to me to be mostly flash.

Anyway, lasagna gardening, the above URL calls for 2 vertical ft. of
mulch on the vegetable beds, mine are usually 3 - 4". Just make sure
that there is always mulch, no matter how thick it is. If you are
getting weeds, you'll probably want to increase the depth of the mulch.
-----

The World Without Us (Paperback)
by Alan Weisman
http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-...2427905/ref=sr
_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274206221&sr=1-1

p.191
At Harpenden, near a low stone circle and adjacent stem wall
that are the remains of a Roman shrine, an estate was founded in
the early 13th century. Rothamsted Manor, built of bricks and
timbers and surrounded by a moat and 300 acres, changed hands
five times over as many centuries, accruing more rooms until an
eight-year-old boy named John Bennet Lawes inherited it in
1814.
.. . .
His story began with bones‹although first, some would say,
came chalk. Centuries of Hertfordshire farmers had dug the
chalky remains of ancient sea creatures that underlie local clays
to spread on their furrows, because it helped their turnips and
grains. From Oxford lectures, Lawes knew that liming their
fields didn't nourish plants so much as soften the soil's acidic re-
sistance. But might anything actually feed crops?

A German chemist, Justus von Liebig, had recently noted
that powdered bonemeal restored vigor to soil. Soaking it first in
dilute sulfuric acid, he wrote, made it even more digestible.
Lawes tried it on a turnip field. He was impressed.

Justus von Liebig is remembered as the father of the fertilizer
industry, but he probably would have traded that honor for John
Bennet Lawes . . . (who) Patent in hand, was (soon) selling
"superphosphate" to all his neighbors.

Once again, the hapless von Liebig had identified nitrogen as a key
component of amino and nucleic acids vital to plants, yet failed to
exploit his discovery. While von Liebig published his findings, Lawes
was patenting nitrate mixtures.

To learn which were most effective, in 1843 Lawes began a
series of test plots still going today, which makes Rothamsted Research
both the world's oldest agricultural station, and also the site
of the world's longest continual field experiments.

By the 1850s, it was obvious that when both nitrogen and
phosphate were applied, yields increased, and that trace minerals
helped some crops and slowed others.

(Lawes) biographer quotes him as declaring that any farmer who
thought he could "grow as fine crops by the aid of a few pounds
of some chemical substances as by the same number of tons of
farm-yard dung" was deluded. Law's advised anyone planting
vegetables and garden greens that, if it were him, he would "select
a locality where I could obtain a large supply of yard manure at a
cheap rate." '
----

And that seems to hold true today, as well.
-----

The "World Without Us" for its morbid title is a real "page turner",
that takes you through information that you've probably never
considered. If you read and liked "Guns, Germs, and Steel": The Fates of
Human Societies by Jared Diamond
http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Ste...393061310/ref=
sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269536106&sr=1-1
you'll like this book as well.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:

snip


s of color pictures, but overall it
seems to me to be mostly flash.

Anyway, lasagna gardening, the above URL calls for 2 vertical ft. of
mulch on the vegetable beds, mine are usually 3 - 4". Just make sure
that there is always mulch, no matter how thick it is. If you are
getting weeds, you'll probably want to increase the depth of the mulch.


I have an abundance of pine straw. My take is that this doesn't make
good compost as it breaks down slowly, but makes good mulch.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...335925165.html

I'll get this started today, in the meantime I have an abundance of
green, and not much other brown. So, I'm thinking... We had at one time
a horse in the neighborhood (I live in Atlanta proper) and chickens
across the road (I now know why a chicken crosses the road: It doesn't
care). But the chickens are all long gone.

I've had a long running compost pile at the dead end of my street
that leads to the woods. Unfortunately it now looks more like a garbage
dump, with shingles and all kinds of plastic tossed on. Sigh! Seems like
someone can always turn a good idea into hell. The reverse is not so easy.

Sometimes I think I live here mostly for amusement.

Jeff

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:

snip


s of color pictures, but overall it
seems to me to be mostly flash.

Anyway, lasagna gardening, the above URL calls for 2 vertical ft. of
mulch on the vegetable beds, mine are usually 3 - 4". Just make sure
that there is always mulch, no matter how thick it is. If you are
getting weeds, you'll probably want to increase the depth of the mulch.


I have an abundance of pine straw. My take is that this doesn't make
good compost as it breaks down slowly, but makes good mulch.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...335925165.html

I'll get this started today, in the meantime I have an abundance of
green, and not much other brown. So, I'm thinking... We had at one time
a horse in the neighborhood (I live in Atlanta proper) and chickens
across the road (I now know why a chicken crosses the road: It doesn't
care). But the chickens are all long gone.

I've had a long running compost pile at the dead end of my street
that leads to the woods. Unfortunately it now looks more like a garbage
dump, with shingles and all kinds of plastic tossed on. Sigh! Seems like
someone can always turn a good idea into hell. The reverse is not so easy.

Sometimes I think I live here mostly for amusement.

Jeff

Well, duh, I can hear the cosmic laughter from here ;O)

I don't see anything wrong with making conifers part of your mulch, but
remember that the soil flora and fauna are counting on the breakdown of
the mulch for nourishment, So, make sure that there is always some
leaves or straw in the mulch as well.

If you ever find a reference to pine needles lowering/not lowering pH,
I'd like to see it.

I have my blueberries planted next to a redwood stump. They don't seem
to be all that vigorous, but the soil should be fairly acidic. No, I
haven't checked the soil pH. Real men don't ask for directions, we wait
until we're out of gas ;O)
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
snip


s of color pictures, but overall it
seems to me to be mostly flash.

Anyway, lasagna gardening, the above URL calls for 2 vertical ft. of
mulch on the vegetable beds, mine are usually 3 - 4". Just make sure
that there is always mulch, no matter how thick it is. If you are
getting weeds, you'll probably want to increase the depth of the mulch.

I have an abundance of pine straw. My take is that this doesn't make
good compost as it breaks down slowly, but makes good mulch.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...335925165.html

I'll get this started today, in the meantime I have an abundance of
green, and not much other brown. So, I'm thinking... We had at one time
a horse in the neighborhood (I live in Atlanta proper) and chickens
across the road (I now know why a chicken crosses the road: It doesn't
care). But the chickens are all long gone.

I've had a long running compost pile at the dead end of my street
that leads to the woods. Unfortunately it now looks more like a garbage
dump, with shingles and all kinds of plastic tossed on. Sigh! Seems like
someone can always turn a good idea into hell. The reverse is not so easy.

Sometimes I think I live here mostly for amusement.

Jeff

Well, duh, I can hear the cosmic laughter from here ;O)

I don't see anything wrong with making conifers part of your mulch, but
remember that the soil flora and fauna are counting on the breakdown of
the mulch for nourishment, So, make sure that there is always some
leaves or straw in the mulch as well.

If you ever find a reference to pine needles lowering/not lowering pH,
I'd like to see it.

It looks like a short term spike when they are composting:

http://www.finegardening.com/how-to/...s-compost.aspx

The acidic conditions created by pine needles are only transitory. As
organic materials decompose, they typically cause an initial decrease in
pH (increase in acidity), but over time, the pH rises so that the
acidity of the composted material becomes near neutral.

Even if pine needles did not equilibrate to a near neutral pH, or if you
wanted to avoid that initial burst of acidity, you could still use them
in your compost pile with good effect.

http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/fo...ad.php?t=13169

Curious about pine needle Ph, I soaked some dry pine needles, put them
in the blender and checked the Ph. Around 6.5, which is the same as my
tap water. I run the mower over the dried needles and use them for
mulch. Pulling the mulch aside to top-dress with compost or whatever is
the only drawback. I do notice that the hostas mulched with pine needles
have less slug/snail damage. So it's a trade-off.

http://www.landscape-and-garden.com/...mendments.aspx

Using Pine Needles and Pine Bark

Most people and gardeners used to believe that pine needles and pine
bark will result in rendering garden soil acidic. And in general most
gardeners used to believe that any part of any coniferous tree will
subsequently be acidic.

However, in its raw state, all coniferous trees are not acidic. This
means that the pine needles that gardeners use to apply as mulch on top
of soil around a plant, or even in the planting hole will not alter the
pH of the garden soil. In fact it is only AFTER the pine needles have
been properly composted that it will result in changes in the pH of your
garden soil.

Nowadays it is not surprising that the seasoned gardeners have found
that pine needles and pine bark do not break down into compost easily.
It is quite a lengthy process if you want to incorporate pine and pine
products into the ingredients of your compost recipe. This is thus also
the reason why pine needles and pine bark makes for excellent, good,
long, lasting mulch that will keep the soil moist and cool the roots of
plants.

This means that pine needles and pine bark is not great additives to use
as soil amendment when you want to alter the pH of your garden soil. You
would serve your garden far better by making use of good compost which
generally has an acid pH. Thus if you want to change the pH of your
soil, you should rather plant with a good compost or acidic peat.

If you need to lower the alkaline level of your garden soil to make your
soil more acidic then you should plant with plenty of good compost, or
use an acidic soil/compost mixture which has the advantage of composted
bark incorporated into the mixture.

I have my blueberries planted next to a redwood stump. They don't seem
to be all that vigorous, but the soil should be fairly acidic.

From what I gather you want to push it far. Mine seem as happy or
happier than anything I have and they are in peat.

No, I
haven't checked the soil pH. Real men don't ask for directions, we wait
until we're out of gas ;O)

;O)

Jeff

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
snip


s of color pictures, but overall it
seems to me to be mostly flash.

Anyway, lasagna gardening, the above URL calls for 2 vertical ft. of
mulch on the vegetable beds, mine are usually 3 - 4". Just make sure
that there is always mulch, no matter how thick it is. If you are
getting weeds, you'll probably want to increase the depth of the mulch.

I have an abundance of pine straw. My take is that this doesn't make
good compost as it breaks down slowly, but makes good mulch.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...335925165.html

I'll get this started today, in the meantime I have an abundance of
green, and not much other brown. So, I'm thinking... We had at one time
a horse in the neighborhood (I live in Atlanta proper) and chickens
across the road (I now know why a chicken crosses the road: It doesn't
care). But the chickens are all long gone.

I've had a long running compost pile at the dead end of my street
that leads to the woods. Unfortunately it now looks more like a garbage
dump, with shingles and all kinds of plastic tossed on. Sigh! Seems like
someone can always turn a good idea into hell. The reverse is not so easy.

Sometimes I think I live here mostly for amusement.

Jeff

Well, duh, I can hear the cosmic laughter from here ;O)

I don't see anything wrong with making conifers part of your mulch, but
remember that the soil flora and fauna are counting on the breakdown of
the mulch for nourishment, So, make sure that there is always some
leaves or straw in the mulch as well.

If you ever find a reference to pine needles lowering/not lowering pH,
I'd like to see it.

It looks like a short term spike when they are composting:

http://www.finegardening.com/how-to/...s-compost.aspx

The acidic conditions created by pine needles are only transitory. As
organic materials decompose, they typically cause an initial decrease in
pH (increase in acidity), but over time, the pH rises so that the
acidity of the composted material becomes near neutral.

Even if pine needles did not equilibrate to a near neutral pH, or if you
wanted to avoid that initial burst of acidity, you could still use them
in your compost pile with good effect.

http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/fo...ad.php?t=13169

Curious about pine needle Ph, I soaked some dry pine needles, put them
in the blender and checked the Ph. Around 6.5, which is the same as my
tap water. I run the mower over the dried needles and use them for
mulch. Pulling the mulch aside to top-dress with compost or whatever is
the only drawback. I do notice that the hostas mulched with pine needles
have less slug/snail damage. So it's a trade-off.

http://www.landscape-and-garden.com/...mendments.aspx

Using Pine Needles and Pine Bark

Most people and gardeners used to believe that pine needles and pine
bark will result in rendering garden soil acidic. And in general most
gardeners used to believe that any part of any coniferous tree will
subsequently be acidic.

However, in its raw state, all coniferous trees are not acidic. This
means that the pine needles that gardeners use to apply as mulch on top
of soil around a plant, or even in the planting hole will not alter the
pH of the garden soil. In fact it is only AFTER the pine needles have
been properly composted that it will result in changes in the pH of your
garden soil.

Nowadays it is not surprising that the seasoned gardeners have found
that pine needles and pine bark do not break down into compost easily.
It is quite a lengthy process if you want to incorporate pine and pine
products into the ingredients of your compost recipe. This is thus also
the reason why pine needles and pine bark makes for excellent, good,
long, lasting mulch that will keep the soil moist and cool the roots of
plants.

This means that pine needles and pine bark is not great additives to use
as soil amendment when you want to alter the pH of your garden soil. You
would serve your garden far better by making use of good compost which
generally has an acid pH. Thus if you want to change the pH of your
soil, you should rather plant with a good compost or acidic peat.

If you need to lower the alkaline level of your garden soil to make your
soil more acidic then you should plant with plenty of good compost, or
use an acidic soil/compost mixture which has the advantage of composted
bark incorporated into the mixture.

I have my blueberries planted next to a redwood stump. They don't seem
to be all that vigorous, but the soil should be fairly acidic.

From what I gather you want to push it far. Mine seem as happy or
happier than anything I have and they are in peat.

No, I
haven't checked the soil pH. Real men don't ask for directions, we wait
until we're out of gas ;O)

;O)

Jeff

Typically, conifer forests have low pH soils, I suspect that I am
confusing cause with effect.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
snip
snip
No, I
haven't checked the soil pH. Real men don't ask for directions, we wait
until we're out of gas ;O)
;O)

Jeff

Typically, conifer forests have low pH soils, I suspect that I am
confusing cause with effect.

I don't think it's clear cut.

Not much else grows in a pine forest, there is a lot of pine straw that
lingers until it burns. I think the overall environment shapes the soil
and it's pH, what little soil there is has poor construction. From what
I can tell deciduous leaves are more acidic than coniferous, it's as if
pine straw in the garden is completely different than pinestraw in the
forest.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...944526608.html

All organic decomposition that takes place in soils (or compost bins) is
acidifying. That is, the decomposition process generates acid. If the
material being decomposed is full of bases, it is possible that the end
result is not acidic.

I am no pine needle expert, but I very seriously doubt that they are
full of bases. Coniferous trees tend to suck their nutrients back into
the tree before dropping old needles (unlike deciduous trees). Pine
needles are very different from oak leaves for this reason.

So given the fact that decomposing needles generates acid, and that pine
needles probably do not contain much in the way of bases, my guess would
be that yes, they will acidify the soil. Whether it will be enough of a
change to be noticeable is a different story. It would depend on the
buffering capacity (the ability to resist change) of the soil.



Also, it looks line pine forest have very high C/N ratios

http://www.fsl.orst.edu/~waring/Publ...orestEncyc.pdf
Leaf litter, wood, and root materials produced by evergreen
conifers usually contain twice the amount of carbon
(C) in relation to nitrogen found in corresponding materials
produced by deciduous angiosperms. As a result, the
decomposition of coniferous litter is usually 3–4 times
slower than hardwood litter, leading to a greater accumulation
of forest floor litter under conifers (Figure 1).
With time, as litter decays, soils under coniferous forests
maintain high C–N ratios and serve as storage sites for
amounts of carbon that far exceed above-ground biomass,
and have turnover times of centuries and millennia.


I think it's the lack of decomposition from too little green N, some
acid must then leach out, that is all there is as there is no buffer.

But, what do I know! Being wrong is more predictable than being right.


I have some monster azaleas growing under pines. I don't think this
is unusual, I'll have to test the soil some day. There's a foot or more
of pine straw in places.

Jeff

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
snip
snip
No, I
haven't checked the soil pH. Real men don't ask for directions, we wait
until we're out of gas ;O)
;O)

Jeff

Typically, conifer forests have low pH soils, I suspect that I am
confusing cause with effect.

I don't think it's clear cut.

Not much else grows in a pine forest, there is a lot of pine straw that
lingers until it burns. I think the overall environment shapes the soil
and it's pH, what little soil there is has poor construction. From what
I can tell deciduous leaves are more acidic than coniferous, it's as if
pine straw in the garden is completely different than pinestraw in the
forest.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...944526608.html

All organic decomposition that takes place in soils (or compost bins) is
acidifying. That is, the decomposition process generates acid. If the
material being decomposed is full of bases, it is possible that the end
result is not acidic.

I am no pine needle expert, but I very seriously doubt that they are
full of bases. Coniferous trees tend to suck their nutrients back into
the tree before dropping old needles (unlike deciduous trees). Pine
needles are very different from oak leaves for this reason.

So given the fact that decomposing needles generates acid, and that pine
needles probably do not contain much in the way of bases, my guess would
be that yes, they will acidify the soil. Whether it will be enough of a
change to be noticeable is a different story. It would depend on the
buffering capacity (the ability to resist change) of the soil.



Also, it looks line pine forest have very high C/N ratios

http://www.fsl.orst.edu/~waring/Publ...orestEncyc.pdf
Leaf litter, wood, and root materials produced by evergreen
conifers usually contain twice the amount of carbon
(C) in relation to nitrogen found in corresponding materials
produced by deciduous angiosperms. As a result, the
decomposition of coniferous litter is usually 3*4 times
slower than hardwood litter, leading to a greater accumulation
of forest floor litter under conifers (Figure 1).
With time, as litter decays, soils under coniferous forests
maintain high C*N ratios and serve as storage sites for
amounts of carbon that far exceed above-ground biomass,
and have turnover times of centuries and millennia.


I think it's the lack of decomposition from too little green N, some
acid must then leach out, that is all there is as there is no buffer.

But, what do I know! Being wrong is more predictable than being right.


I have some monster azaleas growing under pines. I don't think this
is unusual, I'll have to test the soil some day. There's a foot or more
of pine straw in places.

Jeff

Apparently, lots of rain will drive the pH of the soil down.

Soils and acidity
Under conditions in which rainfall exceeds evapotranspiration (leaching)
during most of the year, the basic soil cations (Ca, Mg, K) are
gradually depleted and replaced with cations held in colloidal soil
reserves, leading to soil acidity. Clay soils often contain iron and
aluminium hydroxides, which affect the retention and availability of
fertilizer cations and anions in acidic soils.
Soil acidification may also occur by addition of hydrogen, due to
decomposition of organic matter, acid-forming fertilizers, and exchange
of basic cations for H+ by the roots. Soil acidity is reduced by
volatilization and denitrification of nitrogen. Under flooded
conditions, the soil pH value increases.
In addition, the following nitrate fertilizers -- calcium nitrate,
magnesium nitrate, potassium nitrate and sodium nitrate -- also increase
the soil pH value. Some alkaline soils have calcium in the form of
limestone that is not chemically available to plants. In this case
sulphuric acid
[edit]
Factors affecting soil pH
The pH value of a soil is influenced by the kinds of parent materials
from which the soil was formed. Soils developed from basic rocks
generally have higher pH values than those formed from acid rocks.
Rainfall also affects soil pH. Water passing through the soil leaches
basic nutrients such as calcium and magnesium from the soil. They are
replaced by acidic elements such as aluminium and iron. For this reason,
soils formed under high rainfall conditions are more acidic than those
formed under arid (dry) conditions.
Rainfall and acid affect the soil a lot.
[edit]
Soil life and pH
A pH level of around 6.3-6.8 is also the optimum range preferred by most
soil bacteria, although fungi, moulds, and anaerobic bacteria have a
broader tolerance and tend to multiply at lower pH values. Therefore,
more acidic soils tend to be susceptible to souring and putrefaction,
rather than undergoing the sweet decay processes associated with the
decay of organic matter, which immeasurably benefit the soil. These
processes also prefer near-neutral conditions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_pH#How_acidic_soil_forms

But all thing being equal, apparently conifers can change the pH as well.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...6T6X-3V8KST5-1
B&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F28%2F1998&_rdoc=1&_fmt= high&_orig=search&_sort
=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1346640603&_rer unOrigin=google&_acct=C
000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5= 9063338fcb4564ecf07836d
69d60c9c1
http://soil.scijournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/54/5/1427

I was thinking that fungi modified the soil pH, but apparently they are
just opportunists who can thrive in low pH soil.

Anywho, it looks like a steady supply of pine boughs would lower the
soil pH. How many centuries that may take is another question.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
snip


Apparently, lots of rain will drive the pH of the soil down.


I'm struck by the pH world map. Little rain = Alkaline. It's almost a
map of the world's deserts. It's been an insight into how the globe
functions, I never thought SFG would take me there!

Jeff

Soils and acidity
Under conditions in which rainfall exceeds evapotranspiration (leaching)
during most of the year, the basic soil cations (Ca, Mg, K) are
gradually depleted and replaced with cations held in colloidal soil
reserves, leading to soil acidity. Clay soils often contain iron and
aluminium hydroxides, which affect the retention and availability of
fertilizer cations and anions in acidic soils.
Soil acidification may also occur by addition of hydrogen, due to
decomposition of organic matter, acid-forming fertilizers, and exchange
of basic cations for H+ by the roots. Soil acidity is reduced by
volatilization and denitrification of nitrogen. Under flooded
conditions, the soil pH value increases.
In addition, the following nitrate fertilizers -- calcium nitrate,
magnesium nitrate, potassium nitrate and sodium nitrate -- also increase
the soil pH value. Some alkaline soils have calcium in the form of
limestone that is not chemically available to plants. In this case
sulphuric acid
[edit]
Factors affecting soil pH
The pH value of a soil is influenced by the kinds of parent materials
from which the soil was formed. Soils developed from basic rocks
generally have higher pH values than those formed from acid rocks.
Rainfall also affects soil pH. Water passing through the soil leaches
basic nutrients such as calcium and magnesium from the soil. They are
replaced by acidic elements such as aluminium and iron. For this reason,
soils formed under high rainfall conditions are more acidic than those
formed under arid (dry) conditions.
Rainfall and acid affect the soil a lot.
[edit]
Soil life and pH
A pH level of around 6.3-6.8 is also the optimum range preferred by most
soil bacteria, although fungi, moulds, and anaerobic bacteria have a
broader tolerance and tend to multiply at lower pH values. Therefore,
more acidic soils tend to be susceptible to souring and putrefaction,
rather than undergoing the sweet decay processes associated with the
decay of organic matter, which immeasurably benefit the soil. These
processes also prefer near-neutral conditions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_pH#How_acidic_soil_forms

But all thing being equal, apparently conifers can change the pH as well.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...6T6X-3V8KST5-1
B&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F28%2F1998&_rdoc=1&_fmt= high&_orig=search&_sort
=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1346640603&_rer unOrigin=google&_acct=C
000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5= 9063338fcb4564ecf07836d
69d60c9c1
http://soil.scijournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/54/5/1427

I was thinking that fungi modified the soil pH, but apparently they are
just opportunists who can thrive in low pH soil.

Anywho, it looks like a steady supply of pine boughs would lower the
soil pH. How many centuries that may take is another question.

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Billy wrote:
snip


Apparently, lots of rain will drive the pH of the soil down.


I'm struck by the pH world map. Little rain = Alkaline. It's almost a
map of the world's deserts. It's been an insight into how the globe
functions, I never thought SFG would take me there!

Jeff
That's what's crazy about teaching to the test. Memorizing facts out of
context when everything is connected to everything. Start with French
door knobs of the 18th Century and the next thing you know your studying
metallurgy, crystallography, geology, chemistry, physics, culture,
language, and politics. If we had a real school system, a student would
choose a subject and make weekly reports, no matter where the studies
lead him/her. Little rain: alkaline. Lots of rain: acidic. Meteorology,
astronomy, chemistry, crops, biology, nutrition, culture and all the
different ways that they can send you.. As Bilbo Baggins used to say,
"It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road,
and if you don't keep your feet, there's no telling where you might be
swept off to."

Soils and acidity
Under conditions in which rainfall exceeds evapotranspiration (leaching)
during most of the year, the basic soil cations (Ca, Mg, K) are
gradually depleted and replaced with cations held in colloidal soil
reserves, leading to soil acidity. Clay soils often contain iron and
aluminium hydroxides, which affect the retention and availability of
fertilizer cations and anions in acidic soils.
Soil acidification may also occur by addition of hydrogen, due to
decomposition of organic matter, acid-forming fertilizers, and exchange
of basic cations for H+ by the roots. Soil acidity is reduced by
volatilization and denitrification of nitrogen. Under flooded
conditions, the soil pH value increases.
In addition, the following nitrate fertilizers -- calcium nitrate,
magnesium nitrate, potassium nitrate and sodium nitrate -- also increase
the soil pH value. Some alkaline soils have calcium in the form of
limestone that is not chemically available to plants. In this case
sulphuric acid
[edit]
Factors affecting soil pH
The pH value of a soil is influenced by the kinds of parent materials
from which the soil was formed. Soils developed from basic rocks
generally have higher pH values than those formed from acid rocks.
Rainfall also affects soil pH. Water passing through the soil leaches
basic nutrients such as calcium and magnesium from the soil. They are
replaced by acidic elements such as aluminium and iron. For this reason,
soils formed under high rainfall conditions are more acidic than those
formed under arid (dry) conditions.
Rainfall and acid affect the soil a lot.
[edit]
Soil life and pH
A pH level of around 6.3-6.8 is also the optimum range preferred by most
soil bacteria, although fungi, moulds, and anaerobic bacteria have a
broader tolerance and tend to multiply at lower pH values. Therefore,
more acidic soils tend to be susceptible to souring and putrefaction,
rather than undergoing the sweet decay processes associated with the
decay of organic matter, which immeasurably benefit the soil. These
processes also prefer near-neutral conditions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_pH#How_acidic_soil_forms

But all thing being equal, apparently conifers can change the pH as well.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...6T6X-3V8KST5-1
B&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F28%2F1998&_rdoc=1&_fmt= high&_orig=search&_sort
=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1346640603&_rer unOrigin=google&_acct=C
000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5= 9063338fcb4564ecf07836d
69d60c9c1
http://soil.scijournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/54/5/1427

I was thinking that fungi modified the soil pH, but apparently they are
just opportunists who can thrive in low pH soil.

Anywho, it looks like a steady supply of pine boughs would lower the
soil pH. How many centuries that may take is another question.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html