cabbage
as our space is usually limited and i can't
cook it anyways we've never actually grown cabbages before this year. the difference this year is someone we know who makes saurkraut and Ma wanting to do something nice for them. we put in 12 plants. of the 12, 1 is decidedly different in leaf shape and i doubt it will be a cabbage at all. 1 other is much smaller than the others, but that is because it is shaded in the afternoon for a few hours. it is still green and growing fine. the cabbage butterfly/worms are doing a lot of damage. today i went out to pick them off and then i sprayed the plants down to rinse off all the green poop they left behind. this way when i go out again to find more worms i'll be able to see if any new piles are showing up. as i've not really cared much about the white butterflies before to pay attention to their life cycle i figured i could ask the experts here about them. i'm assuming that as long as they are flying around they are capable of laying eggs. so the quest of picking worms off will likely be until i stop seeing them flying around. as to specific questions, do they ever give up? or can they have more than one generation per season? the cabbage is getting a more compact inner set of leaves now, do the worms keep burrowing in or will the plant be able to form a head anyways if i ignore them? it looks like it can be hard to get all the worms off of those inner leaves without breaking them off. when the worms are done where do they hibernate/pupate? i had a nice handful of them today and put them in soapy water to drown them. poor guys. yes, i know i can google all of this, but it's fun to also be able to talk to people about their experiences. as for control, hand picking seems to be the only option as i don't spray anything other than water on the plants. if there are other ways of controlling them (bugs to encourage other than praying mantis or birds that will eat them or the butterflies, etc.) i'll be interested in hearing your experiences with what you've attempted and what's worked the best. thanks! songbird |
cabbage
On Monday, July 15, 2013 7:41:51 AM UTC-6, songbird wrote:
as our space is usually limited and i can't cook it anyways we've never actually grown cabbages before this year. the difference this year is someone we know who makes saurkraut and Ma wanting to do something nice for them. we put in 12 plants. some deletion Derris dust will control those cabbage moths...why don't you use it? == |
cabbage
In article ,
Roy wrote: On Monday, July 15, 2013 7:41:51 AM UTC-6, songbird wrote: as our space is usually limited and i can't cook it anyways we've never actually grown cabbages before this year. the difference this year is someone we know who makes saurkraut and Ma wanting to do something nice for them. we put in 12 plants. some deletion Derris dust will control those cabbage moths...why don't you use it? == Toxicity Rotenone is classified by the World Health Organization as moderately hazardous.[14] It is mildly toxic to humans and other mammals, but extremely toxic to insects and aquatic life, including fish. This higher toxicity in fish and insects is because the lipophilic rotenone is easily taken up through the gills or trachea, but not as easily through the skin or the gastrointestinal tract. Rotenone is toxic to erythrocytes in vitro. [15] The lowest lethal dose for a child is 143 mg/kg. Human deaths from rotenone poisoning are rare because its irritating action causes vomiting.[16] Deliberate ingestion of rotenone can be fatal.[17] The compound decomposes when exposed to sunlight and usually has a lifetime of six days in the environment.[18] In water, rotenone may last six months.[citation needed] Parkinson's disease In 2000, injecting rotenone into rats was reported to cause the development of symptoms similar to those of Parkinson's disease (PD). Rotenone was continuously applied over a period of five weeks, mixed with DMSO and PEG to enhance tissue penetration, and injected into the jugular vein.[19] The study does not directly suggest rotenone exposure is responsible for PD in humans, but is consistent with the belief that chronic exposure to environmental toxins increases the likelihood of the disease.[20] In addition, studies with primary cultures of rat neurons and microglia have shown low doses of rotenone (below 10 nM) induce oxidative damage and death of dopaminergic neurons,[21] and it is these neurons in the substantia nigra that die in Parkinson's disease. Another study has also described toxic action of rotenone at low concentrations (5 nM) in dopaminergic neurons from acute rat brain slices.[22] This toxicity was exacerbated by an additional cell stressor - elevated intracellular calcium concentration - adding support to the 'multiple hit hypothesis' of dopaminergic neuron death. The neurotoxin MPTP had been known earlier to cause PD-like symptoms (in humans and other primates, though not in rats) by interfering with Complex I in the electron transport chain and killing dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra. However, further studies involving MPTP have failed to show development of Lewy bodies, a key component to PD pathology. Therefore, the mechanism behind MPTP as it relates to Parkinson's disease is not fully understood.[23] Because of these developments, rotenone was investigated as a possible Parkinson-causing agent. Both MPTP and rotenone are lipophilic and can cross the blood*brain barrier. In 2010, a study was published detailing the progression of Parkinson's-like symptoms in mice following chronic intragastric ingestion of low doses of rotenone. The concentrations in the central nervous system were below detectable limits, yet still induced PD pathology.[24] In 2011, a US National Institutes of Health study showed a link between rotenone use and Parkinson's disease in farm workers.[25] -- Palestinian Child Detained http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg Remember Rachel Corrie http://www.rachelcorrie.org/ Welcome to the New America. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg |
cabbage
On Monday, July 15, 2013 11:47:37 AM UTC-6, Billy wrote:
In article , Roy wrote: On Monday, July 15, 2013 7:41:51 AM UTC-6, songbird wrote: as our space is usually limited and i can't cook it anyways we've never actually grown cabbages before this year. the difference this year is someone we know who makes saurkraut and Ma wanting to do something nice for them. we put in 12 plants. some deletion Derris dust will control those cabbage moths...why don't you use it? == Toxicity So thoroughly WASH the dust from the cabbage and there should be NO problem. Sheesh, you people think that everyone wants to ingest poisons. Derris dust breaks down naturally after exposure to air. We always WASHED our cabbage before usage...what is preventing you from doing the same thing? |
cabbage
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cabbage
On Monday, July 15, 2013 12:40:58 PM UTC-6, phorbin wrote:
In article , says... On Monday, July 15, 2013 7:41:51 AM UTC-6, songbird wrote: as our space is usually limited and i can't cook it anyways we've never actually grown cabbages before this year. the difference this year is someone we know who makes saurkraut and Ma wanting to do something nice for them. we put in 12 plants. some deletion Derris dust will control those cabbage moths...why don't you use it? BTK in most cases does just fine. Why don't you try it. I definitely will try it...now that I have some information on it and where it is available. Thanks for the tip. |
cabbage
Roy wrote:
.... Derris dust will control those cabbage moths...why don't you use it? doesn't meet my requirements. Bt doesn't either. songbird |
cabbage
phorbin wrote:
.... BTK in most cases does just fine. Why don't you try it. doesn't meet my requirements. songbird |
cabbage
Roy wrote:
.... So thoroughly WASH the dust from the cabbage and there should be NO problem. Sheesh, you people think that everyone wants to ingest poisons. Derris dust breaks down naturally after exposure to air. We always WASHED our cabbage before usage...what is preventing you from doing the same thing? some of us find the "poison" approach unethical or damaging in other ways (including intellectually). some of us would rather explore other methods of problem solving gardening issues than applying a spray. perhaps you've suffered from a derris dust exposure and it has damaged your brain? how could i trust your judgement? songbird |
cabbage
songbird wrote:
Roy wrote: ... So thoroughly WASH the dust from the cabbage and there should be NO problem. Sheesh, you people think that everyone wants to ingest poisons. Derris dust breaks down naturally after exposure to air. We always WASHED our cabbage before usage...what is preventing you from doing the same thing? some of us find the "poison" approach unethical or damaging in other ways (including intellectually). some of us would rather explore other methods of problem solving gardening issues than applying a spray. perhaps you've suffered from a derris dust exposure and it has damaged your brain? how could i trust your judgement? songbird Since there's only 12 plants involved, it's not much work to just pick the caterpillars by hand and stomp on them. -- *********** To reply by e-mail, make w single in address ************** |
cabbage
Ian Gay wrote:
.... Since there's only 12 plants involved, it's not much work to just pick the caterpillars by hand and stomp on them. yep, that's what i'll be doing for now, but still reading and interested in comments about life-cycle or habits of creatures and plants. so far one source says to enclose the head in stockings to keep them out, but that doesn't take care of those already inside or tell me if the plant will out grow those inside (as they must eventually eat enough at some point...) and end up with a solid cabbage head after all. looks like only one life-cycle per season. the other thing is that there are very few decoy varieties around. i have almost no other brassicas in the gardens/yard. so these plants are acting like a magnet... songbird |
cabbage
songbird wrote:
as our space is usually limited and i can't cook it anyways we've never actually grown cabbages before this year. the difference this year is someone we know who makes saurkraut and Ma wanting to do something nice for them. we put in 12 plants. of the 12, 1 is decidedly different in leaf shape and i doubt it will be a cabbage at all. 1 other is much smaller than the others, but that is because it is shaded in the afternoon for a few hours. it is still green and growing fine. the cabbage butterfly/worms are doing a lot of damage. today i went out to pick them off and then i sprayed the plants down to rinse off all the green poop they left behind. this way when i go out again to find more worms i'll be able to see if any new piles are showing up. as i've not really cared much about the white butterflies before to pay attention to their life cycle i figured i could ask the experts here about them. i'm assuming that as long as they are flying around they are capable of laying eggs. so the quest of picking worms off will likely be until i stop seeing them flying around. Yes as to specific questions, do they ever give up? or can they have more than one generation per season? No they never give up except when it is too cold, yes they can have many generations per season depending on how long your warm season is. the cabbage is getting a more compact inner set of leaves now, do the worms keep burrowing in or will the plant be able to form a head anyways if i ignore them? it looks like it can be hard to get all the worms off of those inner leaves without breaking them off. The worms will only attack the outside but still will cause quite a bit of waste. when the worms are done where do they hibernate/pupate? Where you can't find them. i had a nice handful of them today and put them in soapy water to drown them. poor guys. yes, i know i can google all of this, but it's fun to also be able to talk to people about their experiences. as for control, hand picking seems to be the only option as i don't spray anything other than water on the plants. if there are other ways of controlling them (bugs to encourage other than praying mantis or birds that will eat them or the butterflies, etc.) i'll be interested in hearing your experiences with what you've attempted and what's worked the best. By far the simplest solution if you don't want to spray is netting. Use polymer netting that is used on fruit trees, the mesh is about 2cm (1in) and the butterflies cannot get through. No butterlfies means no eggs, no eggs no grubs. Youy can make hoops out of polypipe to stand the net off the cabbage. The same applies to any brassica that the cabbage butterfly eats. David |
cabbage
songbird wrote:
Roy wrote: ... Derris dust will control those cabbage moths...why don't you use it? doesn't meet my requirements. Bt doesn't either. songbird Why? D |
cabbage
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cabbage
phorbin wrote:
songbird says... phorbin wrote: ... BTK in most cases does just fine. Why don't you try it. doesn't meet my requirements. My response was to Roy's suggestion. ok. Having read another post of yours, I'd bet that your biggest helper will probably be wasps. If you've watched them patrol cabbages, broccoli and the like, you'll have noticed that they are very thorough and go over every leaf top and bottom until they find something. We let the wasps nest mostly wherever and have their own harvest. Between our picking and squashing and their stinging and carrying away, the cabbages do well. One season we had a huge paper wasp nest in the garden shed and no cabbage caterpillars. we have plenty of hornets/wasps around. they like the rocks in the rock piles, the backsides of stepping stones, many of the wind chimes or other decorations. also they often are nesting on the eves of the house (but i knock those down). when we had scarecrows the wasps/hornets really liked those. i've not ever seen them crawling on the cabbage plants, but will hope to see them soon. i picked about 70 cabbage worms today. will check them again in the morning. rinsing off the droppings helps find new ones. will have to inspect more closely for eggs this morning. It's a bit different after the cabbages head up. as i've never grown cabbage before i'm guessing that is what is starting to happen now as the middle of the heads are starting to have more curling leaves packed together. the cabbage worms are doing a good job of chewing their way through those leaves. Then our problem is mostly earwigs and slugs. luckily i don't think either of those are a significant problem around here. songbird |
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