as our space is usually limited and i can't
cook it anyways we've never actually grown
cabbages before this year. the difference
this year is someone we know who makes
saurkraut and Ma wanting to do something
nice for them. we put in 12 plants.

of the 12, 1 is decidedly different in
leaf shape and i doubt it will be a cabbage
at all. 1 other is much smaller than the
others, but that is because it is shaded in
the afternoon for a few hours. it is still
green and growing fine.

the cabbage butterfly/worms are doing a
lot of damage. today i went out to pick
them off and then i sprayed the plants down
to rinse off all the green poop they left
behind. this way when i go out again to find
more worms i'll be able to see if any new
piles are showing up.

as i've not really cared much about the
white butterflies before to pay attention to
their life cycle i figured i could ask the
experts here about them.

i'm assuming that as long as they are
flying around they are capable of laying
eggs. so the quest of picking worms off
will likely be until i stop seeing them
flying around.

as to specific questions, do they ever
give up? or can they have more than one
generation per season?

the cabbage is getting a more compact
inner set of leaves now, do the worms keep
burrowing in or will the plant be able to
form a head anyways if i ignore them? it
looks like it can be hard to get all the
worms off of those inner leaves without
breaking them off.

when the worms are done where do they
hibernate/pupate?

i had a nice handful of them today and
put them in soapy water to drown them. poor
guys.

yes, i know i can google all of this, but
it's fun to also be able to talk to people
about their experiences.

as for control, hand picking seems to be the
only option as i don't spray anything other
than water on the plants. if there are other
ways of controlling them (bugs to encourage
other than praying mantis or birds that will
eat them or the butterflies, etc.) i'll be
interested in hearing your experiences with
what you've attempted and what's worked the
best.

thanks!


songbird

On Monday, July 15, 2013 7:41:51 AM UTC-6, songbird wrote:
as our space is usually limited and i can't

cook it anyways we've never actually grown

cabbages before this year. the difference

this year is someone we know who makes

saurkraut and Ma wanting to do something

nice for them. we put in 12 plants.


some deletion
Derris dust will control those cabbage moths...why don't you use it?


==

In article ,
Roy wrote:

On Monday, July 15, 2013 7:41:51 AM UTC-6, songbird wrote:
as our space is usually limited and i can't

cook it anyways we've never actually grown

cabbages before this year. the difference

this year is someone we know who makes

saurkraut and Ma wanting to do something

nice for them. we put in 12 plants.


some deletion
Derris dust will control those cabbage moths...why don't you use it?


==

Toxicity

Rotenone is classified by the World Health Organization as moderately
hazardous.[14] It is mildly toxic to humans and other mammals, but
extremely toxic to insects and aquatic life, including fish. This higher
toxicity in fish and insects is because the lipophilic rotenone is
easily taken up through the gills or trachea, but not as easily through
the skin or the gastrointestinal tract. Rotenone is toxic to
erythrocytes in vitro. [15]

The lowest lethal dose for a child is 143 mg/kg. Human deaths from
rotenone poisoning are rare because its irritating action causes
vomiting.[16] Deliberate ingestion of rotenone can be fatal.[17]

The compound decomposes when exposed to sunlight and usually has a
lifetime of six days in the environment.[18] In water, rotenone may last
six months.[citation needed]
Parkinson's disease

In 2000, injecting rotenone into rats was reported to cause the
development of symptoms similar to those of Parkinson's disease (PD).
Rotenone was continuously applied over a period of five weeks, mixed
with DMSO and PEG to enhance tissue penetration, and injected into the
jugular vein.[19] The study does not directly suggest rotenone exposure
is responsible for PD in humans, but is consistent with the belief that
chronic exposure to environmental toxins increases the likelihood of the
disease.[20]

In addition, studies with primary cultures of rat neurons and microglia
have shown low doses of rotenone (below 10 nM) induce oxidative damage
and death of dopaminergic neurons,[21] and it is these neurons in the
substantia nigra that die in Parkinson's disease. Another study has also
described toxic action of rotenone at low concentrations (5 nM) in
dopaminergic neurons from acute rat brain slices.[22] This toxicity was
exacerbated by an additional cell stressor - elevated intracellular
calcium concentration - adding support to the 'multiple hit hypothesis'
of dopaminergic neuron death.

The neurotoxin MPTP had been known earlier to cause PD-like symptoms (in
humans and other primates, though not in rats) by interfering with
Complex I in the electron transport chain and killing dopaminergic
neurons in the substantia nigra. However, further studies involving MPTP
have failed to show development of Lewy bodies, a key component to PD
pathology. Therefore, the mechanism behind MPTP as it relates to
Parkinson's disease is not fully understood.[23] Because of these
developments, rotenone was investigated as a possible Parkinson-causing
agent. Both MPTP and rotenone are lipophilic and can cross the
blood*brain barrier.

In 2010, a study was published detailing the progression of
Parkinson's-like symptoms in mice following chronic intragastric
ingestion of low doses of rotenone. The concentrations in the central
nervous system were below detectable limits, yet still induced PD
pathology.[24]

In 2011, a US National Institutes of Health study showed a link between
rotenone use and Parkinson's disease in farm workers.[25]
--
Palestinian Child Detained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg

Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

On Monday, July 15, 2013 11:47:37 AM UTC-6, Billy wrote:
In article ,

Roy wrote:



On Monday, July 15, 2013 7:41:51 AM UTC-6, songbird wrote:

as our space is usually limited and i can't



cook it anyways we've never actually grown



cabbages before this year. the difference



this year is someone we know who makes



saurkraut and Ma wanting to do something



nice for them. we put in 12 plants.





some deletion

Derris dust will control those cabbage moths...why don't you use it?





==



Toxicity


So thoroughly WASH the dust from the cabbage and there should be NO problem.

Sheesh, you people think that everyone wants to ingest poisons. Derris dust
breaks down naturally after exposure to air. We always WASHED our cabbage
before usage...what is preventing you from doing the same thing?

In article ,
says...
On Monday, July 15, 2013 7:41:51 AM UTC-6, songbird wrote:
as our space is usually limited and i can't

cook it anyways we've never actually grown

cabbages before this year. the difference

this year is someone we know who makes

saurkraut and Ma wanting to do something

nice for them. we put in 12 plants.


some deletion
Derris dust will control those cabbage moths...why don't you use it?

BTK in most cases does just fine.

Why don't you try it.

On Monday, July 15, 2013 12:40:58 PM UTC-6, phorbin wrote:
In article ,

says...

On Monday, July 15, 2013 7:41:51 AM UTC-6, songbird wrote:

as our space is usually limited and i can't



cook it anyways we've never actually grown



cabbages before this year. the difference



this year is someone we know who makes



saurkraut and Ma wanting to do something



nice for them. we put in 12 plants.





some deletion

Derris dust will control those cabbage moths...why don't you use it?



BTK in most cases does just fine.



Why don't you try it.

I definitely will try it...now that I have some information on it
and where it is available. Thanks for the tip.

Roy wrote:
....
Derris dust will control those cabbage moths...why don't you use it?

doesn't meet my requirements.

Bt doesn't either.


songbird

phorbin wrote:
....
BTK in most cases does just fine.

Why don't you try it.

doesn't meet my requirements.


songbird

Roy wrote:
....
So thoroughly WASH the dust from the cabbage and there should be NO problem.

Sheesh, you people think that everyone wants to ingest poisons. Derris dust
breaks down naturally after exposure to air. We always WASHED our cabbage
before usage...what is preventing you from doing the same thing?

some of us find the "poison" approach unethical
or damaging in other ways (including intellectually).

some of us would rather explore other methods of
problem solving gardening issues than applying a
spray.

perhaps you've suffered from a derris dust
exposure and it has damaged your brain? how
could i trust your judgement?


songbird

songbird wrote:

Roy wrote:
...
So thoroughly WASH the dust from the cabbage and there should be NO
problem.

Sheesh, you people think that everyone wants to ingest poisons.
Derris dust breaks down naturally after exposure to air. We always
WASHED our cabbage before usage...what is preventing you from doing
the same thing?

some of us find the "poison" approach unethical
or damaging in other ways (including intellectually).

some of us would rather explore other methods of
problem solving gardening issues than applying a
spray.

perhaps you've suffered from a derris dust
exposure and it has damaged your brain? how
could i trust your judgement?


songbird

Since there's only 12 plants involved, it's not much work to
just pick the caterpillars by hand and stomp on them.

--
*********** To reply by e-mail, make w single in address **************

Ian Gay wrote:
....
Since there's only 12 plants involved, it's not much work to
just pick the caterpillars by hand and stomp on them.

yep, that's what i'll be doing for now, but
still reading and interested in comments about
life-cycle or habits of creatures and plants.

so far one source says to enclose the head in
stockings to keep them out, but that doesn't take
care of those already inside or tell me if the
plant will out grow those inside (as they must
eventually eat enough at some point...) and end
up with a solid cabbage head after all.

looks like only one life-cycle per season.

the other thing is that there are very few
decoy varieties around. i have almost no
other brassicas in the gardens/yard. so these
plants are acting like a magnet...


songbird

songbird wrote:
as our space is usually limited and i can't
cook it anyways we've never actually grown
cabbages before this year. the difference
this year is someone we know who makes
saurkraut and Ma wanting to do something
nice for them. we put in 12 plants.

of the 12, 1 is decidedly different in
leaf shape and i doubt it will be a cabbage
at all. 1 other is much smaller than the
others, but that is because it is shaded in
the afternoon for a few hours. it is still
green and growing fine.

the cabbage butterfly/worms are doing a
lot of damage. today i went out to pick
them off and then i sprayed the plants down
to rinse off all the green poop they left
behind. this way when i go out again to find
more worms i'll be able to see if any new
piles are showing up.

as i've not really cared much about the
white butterflies before to pay attention to
their life cycle i figured i could ask the
experts here about them.

i'm assuming that as long as they are
flying around they are capable of laying
eggs. so the quest of picking worms off
will likely be until i stop seeing them
flying around.


Yes

as to specific questions, do they ever
give up? or can they have more than one
generation per season?


No they never give up except when it is too cold, yes they can have many
generations per season depending on how long your warm season is.

the cabbage is getting a more compact
inner set of leaves now, do the worms keep
burrowing in or will the plant be able to
form a head anyways if i ignore them? it
looks like it can be hard to get all the
worms off of those inner leaves without
breaking them off.


The worms will only attack the outside but still will cause quite a bit of
waste.

when the worms are done where do they
hibernate/pupate?


Where you can't find them.

i had a nice handful of them today and
put them in soapy water to drown them. poor
guys.

yes, i know i can google all of this, but
it's fun to also be able to talk to people
about their experiences.

as for control, hand picking seems to be the
only option as i don't spray anything other
than water on the plants. if there are other
ways of controlling them (bugs to encourage
other than praying mantis or birds that will
eat them or the butterflies, etc.) i'll be
interested in hearing your experiences with
what you've attempted and what's worked the
best.


By far the simplest solution if you don't want to spray is netting. Use
polymer netting that is used on fruit trees, the mesh is about 2cm (1in) and
the butterflies cannot get through. No butterlfies means no eggs, no eggs
no grubs. Youy can make hoops out of polypipe to stand the net off the
cabbage. The same applies to any brassica that the cabbage butterfly eats.

David

songbird wrote:
Roy wrote:
...
Derris dust will control those cabbage moths...why don't you use it?

doesn't meet my requirements.

Bt doesn't either.


songbird

Why?

D

In article ,
says...

phorbin wrote:
...
BTK in most cases does just fine.

Why don't you try it.

doesn't meet my requirements.

My response was to Roy's suggestion.

Having read another post of yours, I'd bet that your biggest helper will
probably be wasps.

If you've watched them patrol cabbages, broccoli and the like, you'll have
noticed that they are very thorough and go over every leaf top and bottom until
they find something.

We let the wasps nest mostly wherever and have their own harvest. Between our
picking and squashing and their stinging and carrying away, the cabbages do
well.

One season we had a huge paper wasp nest in the garden shed and no cabbage
caterpillars.

It's a bit different after the cabbages head up. Then our problem is mostly
earwigs and slugs.

phorbin wrote:
songbird says...
phorbin wrote:
...
BTK in most cases does just fine.

Why don't you try it.

doesn't meet my requirements.

My response was to Roy's suggestion.

ok.


Having read another post of yours, I'd bet that your biggest helper will
probably be wasps.

If you've watched them patrol cabbages, broccoli and the like, you'll have
noticed that they are very thorough and go over every leaf top and bottom until
they find something.

We let the wasps nest mostly wherever and have their own harvest. Between our
picking and squashing and their stinging and carrying away, the cabbages do
well.

One season we had a huge paper wasp nest in the garden shed and no cabbage
caterpillars.

we have plenty of hornets/wasps around. they
like the rocks in the rock piles, the backsides
of stepping stones, many of the wind chimes or
other decorations. also they often are nesting
on the eves of the house (but i knock those down).

when we had scarecrows the wasps/hornets really
liked those.

i've not ever seen them crawling on the cabbage
plants, but will hope to see them soon. i picked
about 70 cabbage worms today. will check them
again in the morning. rinsing off the droppings
helps find new ones.

will have to inspect more closely for eggs
this morning.


It's a bit different after the cabbages head up.

as i've never grown cabbage before i'm guessing
that is what is starting to happen now as the
middle of the heads are starting to have more
curling leaves packed together. the cabbage
worms are doing a good job of chewing their
way through those leaves.


Then our problem is mostly earwigs and slugs.

luckily i don't think either of those are a
significant problem around here.


songbird