Is organic gardening viable?
 

*** note the cross post ***


Hi all :)

I have just finished reading an online book "Chemicals, Humus, and The
Soil" written by Donald P. Hopkins. This book is available through the
agriculture library at http://www.soilandhealth.org.

It seems to me that Mr Hopkins makes a very strong case in favour of
using the fertilisers that are not permissible under the "rules" of
organic gardening. Although Mr Hopkins has discussed this matter in the
context of commercial farming it seems to me that as home growers we are
also looking for best yield for least cost (direct and labour) and that
the arguments he presents are mostly just as valid for home growers as
for commercial.

Mr Hopkins emphasises to a very great extent the need for large amounts
of organic matter in the soil but is also convincing in his argument
that the amounts of humus that are required to provide sufficient
nutrients for the high density planting that both home and commercial
growers favour is difficult for the home grower and expensive to the
point of impossibility in the case of the commercial grower to obtain.

I wonder if anyone else has read this book and can comment on the
validity of the arguments put forward by Mr Hopkins.

Also, are there any peer-reviewed studies regarding the "taste" of
organic vs. non-organic produce (presumably these would be double blind
trials) and the bio-availability of nutrients in organic vs. non-organic
produce. Obviously, I would prefer at least abstracts to be available via
the internet.

Ivan.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

*** note the cross post ***

Hi all :)

I have just finished reading an online book "Chemicals, Humus, and The
Soil" written by Donald P. Hopkins. This book is available through the
agriculture library at http://www.soilandhealth.org.

thanks for the url. Looks very helpful.

....snip.....

Although Mr Hopkins has discussed this matter in the
context of commercial farming it seems to me that as home growers we are
also looking for best yield for least cost (direct and labour) and that
the arguments he presents are mostly just as valid for home growers as
for commercial.

Umm , I think different people garden for different reasons. Having a
vegetable garden is an optional activity for most people these days and
those that have them do so for different reasons.

Some of the ideas are;
1) it is a relaxing activity,
2) greater variety of foods,
3) greater variety of types,
4) reduced agricultural chemical intake,
5) self reliance,
6) skill development,
7) other.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

G'day,
I'm glad you jumped in Terry, a bloke could earn a PH.D
answering this one in detail!

China
Wingham
NSW

p.s. Ivan, yours is a fair post, but while you are at your library, also
check out a book by the name of 'The One Straw Revolution', also
interesting reading.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

G'day,
I'm glad you jumped in Terry, a bloke could earn a PH.D
answering this one in detail!

China
Wingham
NSW

p.s. Ivan, yours is a fair post, but while you are at your library, also
check out a book by the name of 'The One Straw Revolution', also
interesting reading.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message

....snip...
Mr Hopkins emphasises to a very great extent the need for large amounts
of organic matter in the soil but is also convincing in his argument
that the amounts of humus that are required to provide sufficient
nutrients for the high density planting that both home and commercial
growers favour is difficult for the home grower and expensive to the
point of impossibility in the case of the commercial grower to obtain.

I wonder if anyone else has read this book and can comment on the
validity of the arguments put forward by Mr Hopkins.



I haven't read the book but I adopt the philosophy of "ideology grows no
potatoes"

By all means take the long view and care for the soil, air and water, and
animals and ourselves. Let's do this using the best information at hand.
Accept that the resources of the earth are limited and need to be managed
carefully.

There is very good evidence that maintaining organic matter in the soil is
important, that broadacre monoculture using synthetics has drawbacks and for
many other ideas espoused by organic grower.

Consider the converse too: I recently listened to a great heap of claptrap
about why "natural" pyrethrins should be used to kill insects instead of
synthetic. These people were discussing the issue most seriously.

If you are going to kill insects then be aware of the consequences of
killing them and make a good decision whether it is worth it or not. Don't
waste time on the ideological question of whether the poison came out of a
test tube; it's still poison. It is more useful to debate how many angels
can dance on the head of a pin.

It would be similarly stupid to think that you can get sustainable good
results with only "chemical" fertilisers and just as stupid to never use
them under any conditions.


David

Is organic gardening viable?
 

Ivan McDonagh wrote in message . 67.67...
*** note the cross post ***


Hi all :)

I have just finished reading an online book "Chemicals, Humus, and The
Soil" written by Donald P. Hopkins. This book is available through the
agriculture library at http://www.soilandhealth.org.

It seems to me that Mr Hopkins makes a very strong case in favour of
using the fertilisers that are not permissible under the "rules" of
organic gardening. Although Mr Hopkins has discussed this matter in the
context of commercial farming it seems to me that as home growers we are
also looking for best yield for least cost (direct and labour) and that
the arguments he presents are mostly just as valid for home growers as
for commercial.

Mr Hopkins emphasises to a very great extent the need for large amounts
of organic matter in the soil but is also convincing in his argument
that the amounts of humus that are required to provide sufficient
nutrients for the high density planting that both home and commercial
growers favour is difficult for the home grower and expensive to the
point of impossibility in the case of the commercial grower to obtain.


The correct answer is "It depends". There are two aspects of
non-organic gardening, pesticides and fertilizing. Here in Michigan
many pests, present further south, are simply absent due to cold
winters, and one can really go organic on that count. The only
recurrent problem I have is with vine borers. So if I were willing to
go without zucchini, and accept some ragged holes in my collards and
kales, I could indeed be perfectly organic (I cover the zucchini and
accept the holes, if you are keeping score).

As far as organic matter it is true that, past 10 or 20%, there is a
diminished advantage in adding more. When you do add more, you gain
moderate amounts of fertilizer and the increased levels of humus
increase the plant's overall health and therefore resistance to
several stresses, including drought and pests. It is also possible
that you gain in micronutrients content by using compost.

I have to wonder how sweeping a statement one could make
viability. Suppose I needed extra N and P in my yard (or in my
commercial farm), I could do that with a a single box each of bone
meal and bloodmeal, which are viable organic amendments for a farm as
well. No need to drag a ton of leaves across the yard or bring twenty
dumptrucks into the farm. I would also like to know if any kind of
rock dust is organic or not, since it is mined after all.

Besides the more restricted choice of veggies (and more limited
productivity) for a farmer at a given location and time, there is the
more strict rotation that organic agriculture forces you into, which,
as a farmer, will diminish your ability to follow the market. There is
the obvious improvement in water quality and the lesser evolution of
major pests. If your goal is to have a garden with carefree, healthy
veggies, that grow well in your locale, and without insisting on
growing varieties which need chemicals, organic is certainly a viable
way of gardening.

When you are organic, in a sense, you are taking care of several
problems (soil conditioning, fertilizing, reducing weeding and
watering, improving plant health and vegetable nutrient content) with
the single act of applying two inches of compost in the spring. It is
very efficient for the home gardener.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

"Terry Collins" wrote in message
...
Ivan McDonagh wrote:

*** note the cross post ***

Hi all :)

I have just finished reading an online book "Chemicals, Humus, and
The
Soil" written by Donald P. Hopkins. This book is available through
the
agriculture library at http://www.soilandhealth.org.

thanks for the url. Looks very helpful.

...snip.....

Although Mr Hopkins has discussed this matter in the
context of commercial farming it seems to me that as home growers we
are
also looking for best yield for least cost (direct and labour) and
that
the arguments he presents are mostly just as valid for home growers
as
for commercial.

Umm , I think different people garden for different reasons. Having a
vegetable garden is an optional activity for most people these days
and
those that have them do so for different reasons.

Some of the ideas are;
1) it is a relaxing activity,
2) greater variety of foods,
3) greater variety of types,
4) reduced agricultural chemical intake,
5) self reliance,
6) skill development,
7) other.


Don't forget the big reason:

The food tastes so much better!


Ray

Is organic gardening viable?
 

"Terry Collins" wrote in message
...
Ivan McDonagh wrote:

*** note the cross post ***

Hi all :)

I have just finished reading an online book "Chemicals, Humus, and
The
Soil" written by Donald P. Hopkins. This book is available through
the
agriculture library at http://www.soilandhealth.org.

thanks for the url. Looks very helpful.

...snip.....

Although Mr Hopkins has discussed this matter in the
context of commercial farming it seems to me that as home growers we
are
also looking for best yield for least cost (direct and labour) and
that
the arguments he presents are mostly just as valid for home growers
as
for commercial.

Umm , I think different people garden for different reasons. Having a
vegetable garden is an optional activity for most people these days
and
those that have them do so for different reasons.

Some of the ideas are;
1) it is a relaxing activity,
2) greater variety of foods,
3) greater variety of types,
4) reduced agricultural chemical intake,
5) self reliance,
6) skill development,
7) other.


Don't forget the big reason:

The food tastes so much better!


Ray

Is organic gardening viable?
 

"Ray Drouillard" wrote in
:


"Terry Collins" wrote in message
...
Ivan McDonagh wrote:

SNIP


Don't forget the big reason:

The food tastes so much better!


Ray


It's this sort of anectodal evidence, Ray, that I'm curious about - one
of my friends had a load of vegies from my totally organic garden last
year and maintained how much better they were than the chemically grown
ones. Yet I genuinely couldn't say definitely one way or the other ...
sure, they were nicer but was that just a matter of being 5 minutes old
versus being at least 5 days old?

Thanks for the comment though :)

Ivan.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

"Ray Drouillard" wrote in
:


"Terry Collins" wrote in message
...
Ivan McDonagh wrote:

SNIP


Don't forget the big reason:

The food tastes so much better!


Ray


It's this sort of anectodal evidence, Ray, that I'm curious about - one
of my friends had a load of vegies from my totally organic garden last
year and maintained how much better they were than the chemically grown
ones. Yet I genuinely couldn't say definitely one way or the other ...
sure, they were nicer but was that just a matter of being 5 minutes old
versus being at least 5 days old?

Thanks for the comment though :)

Ivan.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

I have to agree. For me, that IS the big one.

Steve


Ray Drouillard wrote:


Don't forget the big reason:

The food tastes so much better!


Ray

Is organic gardening viable?
 

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

.....snip.......

Mr Hopkins emphasises to a very great extent the need for large amounts
of organic matter in the soil but is also convincing in his argument
that the amounts of humus that are required to provide sufficient
nutrients for the high density planting that both home and commercial
growers favour is difficult for the home grower and expensive to the
point of impossibility in the case of the commercial grower to obtain.

From what I remember from high school agriculture some 30 years ago, if
you apply chemical fertilisers direct to a (basic) soil, then your
plants only have a short time (the time it takes to leach through) in
which to take up the nutrients, etc that the chemical provided.

Adding organic matter to the soil provides an enormous amount (relative)
of places/sites for the chemicals to be bound/held/delayed so there is a
greater store of chemical for the plants to later take up and the
chemical is less easily leached out of the soil.

So Mr Hopkins ideas have been adapted in modern agriculture.


"Organic" to me is a system of certification and thus something is
"organic" if it is certified to be organic. End of story.

Some farmers are making a living being organic famrers. End of story
about cost, etc. So that answers your question in the subject.


Okay, we are forced to live in a capitalist world and the capitalist
world just exploits resources to enable some people to maximise the
amount of money they make at the expense of other people and the
environment.

So, not all farmers can afford to be successful organic farmers. because
as you say, the cost of that organic matter can be too high. If you look
at the nutrient cycle as per human activities, we have a few 1000 (?)
farmers growing food, that is 99% shipped to capital cities for sale
(99%) and consumption (95%)(Yes, some of it goes back - weird). So
basically our cities are drowning in shit each year. To prevent this
happening, we pump it out to sea. What %? and What % is now sold as
landscape fill, etc?

So, if a farmer wants to do what is right by the environment, they then
have to pay for cartage of that organic matter back to his farm, which
for most means that the costs of farming inputs are too high and they
would not have a commerically viable farm. Note, that book was written
in 1948 and transport infrastructure has greatly changed since then.

Instead, farmers tend to produce organic matter on the farm by growing
other crops, e.g, sub-clover with crops to directly provide nitrogen,
pastures that stock eat and defecate, etc.


As a home gardener,

1) I compost all food scraps and if I am feeling energetic, shred and
compost the newspaper, etc. Worry about energy cost of shredding and
have only just workerd out that it all had a ph of 5, which is why is
made negligible difference.

2) obtain bulk animal manures, (e.g horse and chicken), occassionally as
chance and carrying capacity allows. Actually, I know where I can get
trailer loads of stable stuff for free (Cobboty, NSW), but I have to let
it stand for weeks as the horses are regularly wormed and it has a very
large component of sawdust, so I tend not to.

3) buy commercial compost off the chicken farmers and mushroom farmers
and use that. Costs, but easily to handle, store (bagged) and use. and
it worked on the tomatoe this summer as we had a nice crop. however, the
beans were awful.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
"Ray Drouillard" wrote in
:


"Terry Collins" wrote in message
...
Ivan McDonagh wrote:

SNIP


Don't forget the big reason:

The food tastes so much better!


Ray


It's this sort of anectodal evidence, Ray, that I'm curious about - one
of my friends had a load of vegies from my totally organic garden last
year and maintained how much better they were than the chemically grown
ones. Yet I genuinely couldn't say definitely one way or the other ...
SNIP

As I understand it, someone did some blind tests to prove or disprove the
claim that home-grown veggies taste better, and the results basically were
that even the home growers couldn't tell their own produce from supermarket
bought produce. I don't know whether this was cooked, raw or a mixture of
both.

But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of knowing that
you grew what you're eating.

And I could smug for England.

Steve

Is organic gardening viable?
 

"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
"Ray Drouillard" wrote in
:


"Terry Collins" wrote in message
...
Ivan McDonagh wrote:

SNIP


Don't forget the big reason:

The food tastes so much better!


Ray


It's this sort of anectodal evidence, Ray, that I'm curious about -
one
of my friends had a load of vegies from my totally organic garden last
year and maintained how much better they were than the chemically
grown
ones. Yet I genuinely couldn't say definitely one way or the other ...
sure, they were nicer but was that just a matter of being 5 minutes
old
versus being at least 5 days old?

Thanks for the comment though :)

Ivan.

I wasn't commenting about organic gardening. I was replying to this
comment:

Umm , I think different people garden for different reasons.

Terry mentioned a lot of good reasons to garden, but the superior
quality of home-grown food is one of the biggest reasons for growing
one's own food.


Ray

Is organic gardening viable?
 

"shazzbat" wrote in message
...

"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
"Ray Drouillard" wrote in
:


"Terry Collins" wrote in message
...
Ivan McDonagh wrote:

SNIP


Don't forget the big reason:

The food tastes so much better!


Ray


It's this sort of anectodal evidence, Ray, that I'm curious about -
one
of my friends had a load of vegies from my totally organic garden
last
year and maintained how much better they were than the chemically
grown
ones. Yet I genuinely couldn't say definitely one way or the other
....
SNIP

As I understand it, someone did some blind tests to prove or disprove
the
claim that home-grown veggies taste better, and the results basically
were
that even the home growers couldn't tell their own produce from
supermarket
bought produce. I don't know whether this was cooked, raw or a mixture
of
both.

But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of knowing
that
you grew what you're eating.

I wonder who did the study. I wonder what veggies were used. Radishes
and lettuce might be difficult, but I have yet to see a store-boughten
peach that comes even close to one that was picked ripe from the tree
(as opposed to being picked green and ripened after being severed from
its source of sugar). The same sort of goes for tomatoes. It isn't as
much an issue of vine-ripening, but there is a taste that comes with
home grown tomatoes that is missing in the store-boughten fare. Perhaps
buying some of the $3.00/pound premium tomatoes would fix that, but I
wouldn't bet on it.


Ray Drouillard

Is organic gardening viable?
 

In article ,
"Ray Drouillard" wrote:

"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
"Ray Drouillard" wrote in
:


"Terry Collins" wrote in message
...
Ivan McDonagh wrote:

SNIP


Don't forget the big reason:

The food tastes so much better!


Ray


It's this sort of anectodal evidence, Ray, that I'm curious about -
one
of my friends had a load of vegies from my totally organic garden last
year and maintained how much better they were than the chemically
grown
ones. Yet I genuinely couldn't say definitely one way or the other ...
sure, they were nicer but was that just a matter of being 5 minutes
old
versus being at least 5 days old?

Thanks for the comment though :)

Ivan.

I wasn't commenting about organic gardening. I was replying to this
comment:

Umm , I think different people garden for different reasons.

Terry mentioned a lot of good reasons to garden, but the superior
quality of home-grown food is one of the biggest reasons for growing
one's own food.


Ray




Plus it's just plain damn fun to go out to the yard and pick your lunch
and cook it fresh off the plants... :-) Tastier too. :-d At least in my
experience.

Sometimes tho' I have to wonder if it's worth the water bills!

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katra at centurytel dot net,,
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

Is organic gardening viable?
 

In article ,
"Ray Drouillard" wrote:

"shazzbat" wrote in message
...
snip

But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of knowing
that
you grew what you're eating.

I wonder who did the study. I wonder what veggies were used. Radishes
and lettuce might be difficult, but I have yet to see a store-boughten
peach that comes even close to one that was picked ripe from the tree
(as opposed to being picked green and ripened after being severed from
its source of sugar). The same sort of goes for tomatoes. It isn't as
much an issue of vine-ripening, but there is a taste that comes with
home grown tomatoes that is missing in the store-boughten fare. Perhaps
buying some of the $3.00/pound premium tomatoes would fix that, but I
wouldn't bet on it.


Ray Drouillard

There is nothing on gods green earth more heavenly than a VINE RIPE
tomato fresh off the vine! Most sweet 100 cherry tomatoes never even
make it into the house. G Eat them puppies right off the vine, sun
warmed. ;-d

Fresh picked string beans steamed right off the vine run a close second.
G

I think it is more of a question of freshness. Really, but that's just
my opinion. I also just love to go and pull fresh onions for that day's
brunch.

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katra at centurytel dot net,,
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

Is organic gardening viable?
 

"shazzbat" wrote in
:


But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of knowing
that you grew what you're eating.

Yes, absolutely!

The fulfilment of a dream of some years of growing my own vegies is the
reason I started in the first place - just for the "smug" factor.

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory - I'm sure I will be able to realise my
needs without factory fertiliser but if using factory fertiliser will be
cheaper in terms of land, currency and labour and doesn't necessarily
sacrifice health and/or taste then I'm all for it.


And I could smug for England.

This is some use of the word "smug" with which I'm not familiar


Steve

Ivan.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

"shazzbat" wrote in
:


But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of knowing
that you grew what you're eating.

Yes, absolutely!

The fulfilment of a dream of some years of growing my own vegies is the
reason I started in the first place - just for the "smug" factor.

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory - I'm sure I will be able to realise my
needs without factory fertiliser but if using factory fertiliser will be
cheaper in terms of land, currency and labour and doesn't necessarily
sacrifice health and/or taste then I'm all for it.


And I could smug for England.

This is some use of the word "smug" with which I'm not familiar


Steve

Ivan.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

Terry Collins wrote in
:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

SNIP

"Organic" to me is a system of certification and thus something is
"organic" if it is certified to be organic. End of story.

Some farmers are making a living being organic famrers. End of story
about cost, etc. So that answers your question in the subject.

Oh yes! I'm not arguing at all against those people who can do it - I
honestly believe that if it was possible for all farms to be independent
of factory fertilisers then that would be best.



Okay, we are forced to live in a capitalist world and the capitalist
world just exploits resources to enable some people to maximise the
amount of money they make at the expense of other people and the
environment.

Although I agree to a certain extent with your statement I don't think I
used that point as a thesis. If I did it was completely unintentional -
much as I dislike the fact, I have accepted that I am living in a
capitalist country and that not everything that is done in the name of
capitalism (or any other form of politics-ism) is necessarily good for
the world.

SNIP

So, if a farmer wants to do what is right by the environment, they
then have to pay for cartage of that organic matter back to his farm,
which for most means that the costs of farming inputs are too high and
they would not have a commerically viable farm. Note, that book was
written in 1948 and transport infrastructure has greatly changed since
then.

This is one of the points that the book makes as I'm sure you know. I'm
aware that transport infrastructure has changed since then but so has the
requirements of a commercially viable farm. That is, as the population has
continued to grow we have either of more product per hectare being required
or more hectares being required. In either event, it seems to me that
whatever cost efficiencies have been gained in transport will be lost
through the greater bulk of material being used.


Instead, farmers tend to produce organic matter on the farm by growing
other crops, e.g, sub-clover with crops to directly provide nitrogen,
pastures that stock eat and defecate, etc.

I wasn't aware that this is large-scale practise. Thanks.

SNIP

From the snipped advice regarding composting, I also compost what I can and
am looking at getting in grass clippings and chook manure to build up the
sand that I currently have.

Perhaps I erred by mentioning the book but I wanted to be clear that I was
not being "anti-organic" and that my questions had, at least, a reasonably
sensible basis.

Ivan.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

Terry Collins wrote in
:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

SNIP

"Organic" to me is a system of certification and thus something is
"organic" if it is certified to be organic. End of story.

Some farmers are making a living being organic famrers. End of story
about cost, etc. So that answers your question in the subject.

Oh yes! I'm not arguing at all against those people who can do it - I
honestly believe that if it was possible for all farms to be independent
of factory fertilisers then that would be best.



Okay, we are forced to live in a capitalist world and the capitalist
world just exploits resources to enable some people to maximise the
amount of money they make at the expense of other people and the
environment.

Although I agree to a certain extent with your statement I don't think I
used that point as a thesis. If I did it was completely unintentional -
much as I dislike the fact, I have accepted that I am living in a
capitalist country and that not everything that is done in the name of
capitalism (or any other form of politics-ism) is necessarily good for
the world.

SNIP

So, if a farmer wants to do what is right by the environment, they
then have to pay for cartage of that organic matter back to his farm,
which for most means that the costs of farming inputs are too high and
they would not have a commerically viable farm. Note, that book was
written in 1948 and transport infrastructure has greatly changed since
then.

This is one of the points that the book makes as I'm sure you know. I'm
aware that transport infrastructure has changed since then but so has the
requirements of a commercially viable farm. That is, as the population has
continued to grow we have either of more product per hectare being required
or more hectares being required. In either event, it seems to me that
whatever cost efficiencies have been gained in transport will be lost
through the greater bulk of material being used.


Instead, farmers tend to produce organic matter on the farm by growing
other crops, e.g, sub-clover with crops to directly provide nitrogen,
pastures that stock eat and defecate, etc.

I wasn't aware that this is large-scale practise. Thanks.

SNIP

From the snipped advice regarding composting, I also compost what I can and
am looking at getting in grass clippings and chook manure to build up the
sand that I currently have.

Perhaps I erred by mentioning the book but I wanted to be clear that I was
not being "anti-organic" and that my questions had, at least, a reasonably
sensible basis.

Ivan.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

.....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

The cheapest food is bulk buying at the markets. The early markets where
all the grocers buy, not the retail/paddy's type. the problem then
becomes with what to do with 40kg bags of carrots, etc. which you can
always compost 50% {;-).


Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.


Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away. If
you are going to handle meat scraps, you really have to know what you
are doing with composting as it can smell = problems with neighbours.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

.....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

The cheapest food is bulk buying at the markets. The early markets where
all the grocers buy, not the retail/paddy's type. the problem then
becomes with what to do with 40kg bags of carrots, etc. which you can
always compost 50% {;-).


Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.


Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away. If
you are going to handle meat scraps, you really have to know what you
are doing with composting as it can smell = problems with neighbours.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

....snip.....

This is one of the points that the book makes as I'm sure you know. I'm
aware that transport infrastructure has changed since then but so has the
requirements of a commercially viable farm. That is, as the population has
continued to grow we have either of more product per hectare being required
or more hectares being required. In either event, it seems to me that
whatever cost efficiencies have been gained in transport will be lost
through the greater bulk of material being used.

Generally, a farmer is required to produce more with less. So their
yield per acres has to be up and they have less workers and bigger
machinery. And as a general rule (at least in this country - Australia)
they also require more land.

To give you an example. After WWII, my wife's uncle obtain a soldier
settler grant and started dairy farming with 40 head and two farm
assistants. By the time he retired/sold out, he was milking 200 head by
himself.

The land exception is agriculture that is really an industrial process,
e.g. chickens for meat and eggs, aquaculture (modern, not farm dams),
mushroom growing, feedlots (cattle, pigs), some vegetables (lettuce,
tomatoes, cucumbers) etc.


Transport wise, modern trucks are far more powerful, thus carry more
faster, which means the driver is more efficent, but also B-doubles also
means that the driver is also able to carry a double load. This all
reduces the cost component of transport. the increased amount is more to
do with population growth and the sad fact that Australia largely
imports any manufactured item.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:25:51 -0500, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote:


"shazzbat" wrote in message
...

But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of knowing
that
you grew what you're eating.

I wonder who did the study. I wonder what veggies were used. Radishes
and lettuce might be difficult, but I have yet to see a store-boughten
peach that comes even close to one that was picked ripe from the tree
(as opposed to being picked green and ripened after being severed from
its source of sugar). The same sort of goes for tomatoes. It isn't as
much an issue of vine-ripening, but there is a taste that comes with
home grown tomatoes that is missing in the store-boughten fare. Perhaps
buying some of the $3.00/pound premium tomatoes would fix that, but I
wouldn't bet on it.

Yeah, but... "home grown" and "organic" are not the same thing.
Backing up the thread a bit, we come to 'taste tests' between organic
and non-. There's no question that a tomato picked in one's own
garden, or a peach from one's (or one's neighbor's) tree is superior
to well-travelled produce, whether they've been fertilized with
(organic) goat manure or something in a plastic bag.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
"shazzbat" wrote in
:


But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of knowing
that you grew what you're eating.

Yes, absolutely!

The fulfilment of a dream of some years of growing my own vegies is the
reason I started in the first place - just for the "smug" factor.

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory - I'm sure I will be able to realise my
needs without factory fertiliser but if using factory fertiliser will be
cheaper in terms of land, currency and labour and doesn't necessarily
sacrifice health and/or taste then I'm all for it.


And I could smug for England.

This is some use of the word "smug" with which I'm not familiar

Great! I'm even more smug now.

Smugger even.

:~)

Steve

Is organic gardening viable?
 

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:32:45 +1100, Terry Collins
wrote:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

snip

Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.

Take a look at those two statements. It's *obviously* going to be
cheaper (in terms of auto/truck use) to bring home a few bags of
commercial/chemical/non-'organic' fertilizer than chase around for and
transport manure and compost. If you work in labor costs, cheaper
still. I think the limit in this line was 'organic' advice to keep
manure in a bucket on an apt. balcony rather than commit the 'crime'
of feeding a potted tomato (or rose -- it's been some time) with a
little convenient and readily-available Miracle-Gro.

'Organic' is lovely. Recycling waste of all sorts into useful
nourishment for plants. It's just not too practical for all gardeners.
I *adore* cow manure because it just *looks* so rich and
nourishing...in its plastic 40lb bag which I can bring home in the
trunk of my (compact) car. Shoveling and transporting *real* manure
for a good-sized garden is just not an option. And there's no
guarantee it's 'nature's most perfect food' for plants. At least evil
'chemical' fertilizers can be formulated to supply the necessary
ingredients for many plants.

Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away.

On your bicycle? Or on your back? If a restaurant is separating veg
scraps from used napkins, emptied ashtrays, and plate-scrapings, the
owner is probably saving for his *own* compost pile.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

It's your own fault. You introduced the transportation issue. :-)
You're advising the previous poster to spend a couple of days a week
chasing around to restaurants and race tracks to find and transport
large-volume materials to replace a couple of bags of the chemical
nutrients plants require?

I don't understand why 'artificial' fertilizers have such vociferous
opponents. AFAIK, plants don't care whether their nitrogen and
phosphorous comes from cowpats or granules.

The previous poster is looking at real-life issues, and doubtless
already uses all the 'organic' processes he can manage. *His*
cost/benefit analysis appears to have come down on the side of
manufactured fertilizer. Makes sense to me. He's not talking about
wholesale DDT spraying, or lowering the water table to keep his
golfcourse green.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:12:27 -0000, "shazzbat"
wrote:


"Ivan McDonagh" wrote

"shazzbat" wrote

And I could smug for England.

This is some use of the word "smug" with which I'm not familiar

Great! I'm even more smug now.

Smugger even.

After a recent car accident, I was offered some settlement for "pain
and suffering." While my pain was minor, I replied that I could
'suffer' at Olympic standard. I haven't the self-confidence for
competitive smugging. Although I compete as an amateur.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:25:51 -0500, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote:


"shazzbat" wrote in message
...

But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of
knowing
that
you grew what you're eating.

I wonder who did the study. I wonder what veggies were used.
Radishes
and lettuce might be difficult, but I have yet to see a
store-boughten
peach that comes even close to one that was picked ripe from the tree
(as opposed to being picked green and ripened after being severed
from
its source of sugar). The same sort of goes for tomatoes. It isn't
as
much an issue of vine-ripening, but there is a taste that comes with
home grown tomatoes that is missing in the store-boughten fare.
Perhaps
buying some of the $3.00/pound premium tomatoes would fix that, but I
wouldn't bet on it.

Yeah, but... "home grown" and "organic" are not the same thing.
Backing up the thread a bit, we come to 'taste tests' between organic
and non-. There's no question that a tomato picked in one's own
garden, or a peach from one's (or one's neighbor's) tree is superior
to well-travelled produce, whether they've been fertilized with
(organic) goat manure or something in a plastic bag.


Some people are purists :-)

I prefer to eat veggies that don't require the removal of chemicals
before eating. Also, whether or not you add ammonium nitrate or
whatever to the soil, having good humus in the soil makes for better
produce. Also, while the plants themselves don't need much in the way
of trace minerals, we need them. You won't find selenium and the like
in a bag of chemical fertilizer, but you'll find a variety of minerals
in the dairy doo, compost, or whatever you are using.


Ray

Is organic gardening viable?
 

"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
"shazzbat" wrote in
:


But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of
knowing
that you grew what you're eating.

Yes, absolutely!

The fulfilment of a dream of some years of growing my own vegies is
the
reason I started in the first place - just for the "smug" factor.

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some
economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in
factory
fertilisers versus non-factory - I'm sure I will be able to realise my
needs without factory fertiliser but if using factory fertiliser will
be
cheaper in terms of land, currency and labour and doesn't necessarily
sacrifice health and/or taste then I'm all for it.

According to my research (to quote Dorothy Ann), the important thing is
to have soil that is rich in organic matter. If you want to supplement
that with stuff from bags, you probably won't be able to tell the
difference.

Chemical insecticides and the like, however, have to be used with
care -- if you use them at all.

Ray

Is organic gardening viable?
 

"Katra" wrote in message
...
In article ,


Plus it's just plain damn fun to go out to the yard and pick your
lunch
and cook it fresh off the plants... :-) Tastier too. :-d At least in
my
experience.

Sometimes tho' I have to wonder if it's worth the water bills!

That's why we want to buy that bit of property that has a crick running
through it. We are pretty well assured of being able to buy the house
and about ten acres of surrounding land, but the owner doesn't seem to
want to sell us the creek.

Oh well, I can always put in a shallow well and a windmill. It'll add
some atmosphere, and go well with the old barn. :-)



Ray

Is organic gardening viable?
 

In article ,
"Ray Drouillard" wrote:

I wonder who did the study. I wonder what veggies were used. Radishes
and lettuce might be difficult, but I have yet to see a store-boughten
peach that comes even close to one that was picked ripe from the tree
(as opposed to being picked green and ripened after being severed from
its source of sugar). The same sort of goes for tomatoes. It isn't as
much an issue of vine-ripening, but there is a taste that comes with
home grown tomatoes that is missing in the store-boughten fare. Perhaps
buying some of the $3.00/pound premium tomatoes would fix that, but I
wouldn't bet on it.

I wuldn't either -- I've paid the premium for truss tomatoes and, while they
taste better than the cheap ones, they have nothing on home-grown for flavour.
OTOH I can fully believe that a home-grown iceberg lettuce doesn't taste much
better than a shop one. A home-grown cos lettuce outshines a shop one, though
-- even when grown under far-from-ideal conditions, ie with me as gardener!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc

Is organic gardening viable?
 

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:59:28 -0500, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote:


"Frogleg" wrote

Yeah, but... "home grown" and "organic" are not the same thing.
Backing up the thread a bit, we come to 'taste tests' between organic
and non-. There's no question that a tomato picked in one's own
garden, or a peach from one's (or one's neighbor's) tree is superior
to well-travelled produce, whether they've been fertilized with
(organic) goat manure or something in a plastic bag.


Some people are purists :-)

I prefer to eat veggies that don't require the removal of chemicals
before eating.

This is where I quarrel with the purists. I don't care for
insecticides and I don't use them (except once, in a pot where
Japanese beetles were devouring a woodruff plant). I *have* used Bt
San Diego to control Colorado potato beetles. In Virginia. :-) *I*
don't want to wash stuff off my veg either. But I see a difference in
the level of 'sin' between wholesale use of pesticide and a little
MiracleGro. That is, I think that fertilizers, perticides, and
herbicides should be separate categories, not lumped together as "evil
chemicals."

Also, whether or not you add ammonium nitrate or
whatever to the soil, having good humus in the soil makes for better
produce. Also, while the plants themselves don't need much in the way
of trace minerals, we need them. You won't find selenium and the like
in a bag of chemical fertilizer, but you'll find a variety of minerals
in the dairy doo, compost, or whatever you are using.

Selenium is found in the soil, and in animal protein, as well as in
some veg. If the soil is deficient in a given area, local animal poo
and compost will be, too. In which case, the mineral can be applied
as...commercial fertilizer!

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...7/selenium.htm

When someone posts that they're starting a garden and want to know
what brand of fertilizer to use, I often reply that lively plants need
more than a sprinkling from a bag of granules. I go on and on about
the benefits of compost, not so much for nutrition but for general
soil improvement, aeration and water drainage/retention. But if
someone posts about an obvious nitrogen deficiency, I'd recommend
ammonium nitrate. Animal poo does *not* appear to be perfectly
balanced fertilizer. Good? Yes. Perfect, convenient, without any
downside? No.

I think we essentially agree that mad-dog conviction on either side of
the organic-chemical Great Divide are wrong-headed. There are too many
gray areas in a controversy that is often seen as black&white.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:59:28 -0500, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote:


"Frogleg" wrote

Yeah, but... "home grown" and "organic" are not the same thing.
Backing up the thread a bit, we come to 'taste tests' between organic
and non-. There's no question that a tomato picked in one's own
garden, or a peach from one's (or one's neighbor's) tree is superior
to well-travelled produce, whether they've been fertilized with
(organic) goat manure or something in a plastic bag.


Some people are purists :-)

I prefer to eat veggies that don't require the removal of chemicals
before eating.

This is where I quarrel with the purists. I don't care for
insecticides and I don't use them (except once, in a pot where
Japanese beetles were devouring a woodruff plant). I *have* used Bt
San Diego to control Colorado potato beetles. In Virginia. :-) *I*
don't want to wash stuff off my veg either. But I see a difference in
the level of 'sin' between wholesale use of pesticide and a little
MiracleGro. That is, I think that fertilizers, perticides, and
herbicides should be separate categories, not lumped together as "evil
chemicals."

Also, whether or not you add ammonium nitrate or
whatever to the soil, having good humus in the soil makes for better
produce. Also, while the plants themselves don't need much in the way
of trace minerals, we need them. You won't find selenium and the like
in a bag of chemical fertilizer, but you'll find a variety of minerals
in the dairy doo, compost, or whatever you are using.

Selenium is found in the soil, and in animal protein, as well as in
some veg. If the soil is deficient in a given area, local animal poo
and compost will be, too. In which case, the mineral can be applied
as...commercial fertilizer!

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...7/selenium.htm

When someone posts that they're starting a garden and want to know
what brand of fertilizer to use, I often reply that lively plants need
more than a sprinkling from a bag of granules. I go on and on about
the benefits of compost, not so much for nutrition but for general
soil improvement, aeration and water drainage/retention. But if
someone posts about an obvious nitrogen deficiency, I'd recommend
ammonium nitrate. Animal poo does *not* appear to be perfectly
balanced fertilizer. Good? Yes. Perfect, convenient, without any
downside? No.

I think we essentially agree that mad-dog conviction on either side of
the organic-chemical Great Divide are wrong-headed. There are too many
gray areas in a controversy that is often seen as black&white.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

I have not read this book, but I have practiced organic gardening on a
suburban block with favourable results and
I believe organic gardening is viable if approached in the correct manner.

There may be some exceptions for using pesticides, especially on fruit trees
with introduced pests that have no natural predators
(I.e. That dam cherry slug that attacks my plums, pears and cherry tree)
But otherwise, with careful planning and paying attention to 'past season'
errors you should find pesticides are not really necessary.

Mr Hopkins is accurate in saying a that large amounts of organic matter are
required in the soil. i.e. compost, as Australian soil is generally of poor
quality.
We should not even double dig our soil , but build compost/raised beds where
possible.
Chemical fertilizers will not 'fix' the soil. Compost over time, with
continued use, will improve soil quality.
(if you crop rotate and minimise digging)

But building compost I NOT hard to do and organic matter is not difficult to
obtain.(everyone throws it out)
Also you won't need 'heaps' of space.

First you need to
1. Invest in a tree mulcher ($150 up) and possibly by a trailer (2nd hand
in the trading post)
2. Locate a cheap and local 'manure' pit. I live in Victoria, outer eastern
suburbs. There is a local horse track not too far from my house.
I can collect a trailer load of horse manure for $5.00.
3. Make a compost heap. I won't go into the semantics of how to make a good
compost. A good resource is
'The Rodale Book of Composting'
Deborah I Martina and Crace Gershuny,
Editors. Rodale Press, Emmaus, Pennsylvania.

You can make 'moveable' compost beds. Try and make your compost 'hot' as it
kills weed seeds.
When the compost is finished make it a raised bed and plant and start
another compost heap.

I collect organic matter for about a month, picking up neighbours trees they
have cut, my lawn clippings, weeds etc etc. (anything organic even
newspaper)
I then go and collect the manure and start up a seriously hot compost.

SO that fixes up your 'soil' issue and now all you have to do is deal with
the pests.
P.S and if you have to buy soil, while it is slightly more expensive, choose
mushroom mulch. It is worth the extra expense.
You will have near compost quality soil and it will retain moisture more
easily.

To deal with pests in an organic manner takes some planning.
And you will get pests all the same. Its the 'how much' damage they do that
is the issue VS How much does the pesticide cost/what am I eating it for etc
factor.

So now you need a little bit of knowledge on pest behaviour. Pests find
their food by either smell or sight. So you want to confuse them.
There a many books on 'companion' planting, good pests/bad pests. Repelling
pest plants etc etc that can assist with 'keeping' pests at bay.
There is so much knowledge in fact that it can get confusing,
and you may start thinking, 'Hey I will just SPRAY'.

But I have found with a limited amount of knowledge that a few tricks work
well.
Don't plant the same vegetables all in a row. Its like a sitting target. The
pests see/smell it SO EASILY. Especially the cabbages, cauliflowers, etc
(the Brassica family)
Garlic works well in most places as a repellent.
Set up 'sacrifice Brassica's. The cabbage I plant these at the edge of the
bed and they always gets decimated by pests.
However, the other Brassica's are usually free to mostly free of
snails/slugs.

Introduce a pond and frogs into your backyard to catch the bugs.

We eat anywhere between 20 to 80% of our own food during meals. Probably
averaging 60%
This is our 2nd summer crop.

I am keeping an online diary of my garden ( nearly 2mth behind at present)
www.jeack.com.au/~kirsty

As to the taste test between organic VS non-organic VS home grown.

I eat mostly organic vegetables (seasonal when possible except avocados my
addiction)
Sometimes, I will admit you don't notice a difference in the foods. And some
can seen even 'better' as non-organic.
Below are examples that do compare noticeably for me.

Tomatoes
non-organic = Pretty dam tasteless. No flavour and a strange flour like
texture
organic = Still pretty tasteless. Normal tomato texture.
home grown = Fantastic.

Peaches
non-organic = From what I recall seemed ok
organic = Alright, some had a slightly bitter aftertaste. Smaller in
size than non-organic
home grown = As big as the non-organic, very sweet, no bitter aftertaste

Potatoes

non-organic = Taste floury and weird
organic = Taste wonderful
home-grown = Taste as good as organic, easier to clean.

Lettuce
No difference between any, but is expensive. Home grown lose leaf's very
easy to grow.


Capsicum
non-organic = Big and watery. Not much taste but twice the size of organic
organic = Smaller in size, less watery. Slightly more flavour
home grown = Never been very successful.

In all for 'value' non-organic. But how much water has been used to justify
that SIZE is my question.
However, in saying the home grown tomato's are fantastic I did have some
exceptions.
These were the seeds that self sprouted from the organic vegetable scraps I
fed to my chickens.
They were perfect in shape, stayed on the kitchen bench 'ripening up for
days longer than other 'variety's and tasted a lot less 'fantastic' than say
the Tommy toes.
The moral of this is. Even organics grow tomatoes for 'shelf life' and
'appearance's over flavour. Definably grow your own.


"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
*** note the cross post ***


Hi all :)

I have just finished reading an online book "Chemicals, Humus, and The
Soil" written by Donald P. Hopkins. This book is available through the
agriculture library at http://www.soilandhealth.org.

It seems to me that Mr Hopkins makes a very strong case in favour of
using the fertilisers that are not permissible under the "rules" of
organic gardening. Although Mr Hopkins has discussed this matter in the
context of commercial farming it seems to me that as home growers we are
also looking for best yield for least cost (direct and labour) and that
the arguments he presents are mostly just as valid for home growers as
for commercial.

Mr Hopkins emphasises to a very great extent the need for large amounts
of organic matter in the soil but is also convincing in his argument
that the amounts of humus that are required to provide sufficient
nutrients for the high density planting that both home and commercial
growers favour is difficult for the home grower and expensive to the
point of impossibility in the case of the commercial grower to obtain.

I wonder if anyone else has read this book and can comment on the
validity of the arguments put forward by Mr Hopkins.

Also, are there any peer-reviewed studies regarding the "taste" of
organic vs. non-organic produce (presumably these would be double blind
trials) and the bio-availability of nutrients in organic vs. non-organic
produce. Obviously, I would prefer at least abstracts to be available via
the internet.

Ivan.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

Frogleg wrote in
:

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:32:45 +1100, Terry Collins
wrote:


I don't understand why 'artificial' fertilizers have such vociferous
opponents. AFAIK, plants don't care whether their nitrogen and
phosphorous comes from cowpats or granules.

That was actually one of the points made in the book that I referenced
in the original post. The way the author described it makes good sense
to me.


The previous poster is looking at real-life issues, and doubtless
already uses all the 'organic' processes he can manage.

I do and I'm looking for ways to increase that still further.

*His*
cost/benefit analysis appears to have come down on the side of
manufactured fertilizer. Makes sense to me.

It seems that way at the moment based on the responses I've had.

He's not talking about
wholesale DDT spraying, or lowering the water table to keep his
golfcourse green.


No, definitely not!

The *huge* amount of grass clippings, equally huge amounts of chook poo
and, possibly, a smaller amount of clay are all at least partly focused
on reducing water requirements as much as possible.

And my position on *no* factory pesticides remains firm - increased
productivity through factory fertilisers is one thing but I haven't seen
a cogent argument yet as to why a well managed, mixed crop would need a
pesticide.

Thanks to all who responded.

Ivan.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

wrote:

....snip......

I am keeping an online diary of my garden ( nearly 2mth behind at present)
www.jeack.com.au/~kirsty

unfortunately in flash and not readable.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

wrote:

....snip......

I am keeping an online diary of my garden ( nearly 2mth behind at present)
www.jeack.com.au/~kirsty

unfortunately in flash and not readable.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:32:45 +1100, Terry Collins wrote:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

The cheapest food is bulk buying at the markets. The early markets where
all the grocers buy, not the retail/paddy's type. the problem then
becomes with what to do with 40kg bags of carrots, etc. which you can
always compost 50% {;-).


Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.


Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away. If
you are going to handle meat scraps, you really have to know what you
are doing with composting as it can smell = problems with neighbours.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

One problem with racetracks and other sources of manure is that they sometimes
spray their manure with pesticides to keep the flies away.

Is organic gardening viable?
 

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:32:45 +1100, Terry Collins wrote:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

The cheapest food is bulk buying at the markets. The early markets where
all the grocers buy, not the retail/paddy's type. the problem then
becomes with what to do with 40kg bags of carrots, etc. which you can
always compost 50% {;-).


Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.


Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away. If
you are going to handle meat scraps, you really have to know what you
are doing with composting as it can smell = problems with neighbours.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

One problem with racetracks and other sources of manure is that they sometimes
spray their manure with pesticides to keep the flies away.