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DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
Browsing thekrib.com, the actwins mailing list archives, and everywhere on
the net, I noticed that there are significant differences in the formulation of the CO2 mixture. I know the fundamentals are Mostly Water + Sugar + Yeast + Baking Soda. What would be helpful is to get a % (percentage) recipe. I.e. 70% Water by volume, 25% Sugar by volume + 3% Yeast by volume + 2% Baking Soda by volume. Thanks on any information you can provide. FYI: I just purchased the Nutrafin (Hagen) CO2 Plant system and I don't plan on buying any more "Activator" and "stabilizer" packets. I noticed that the mixture they suggested didn't seem to use too much sugar (about 10% by volume) -- |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
"David Wee" wrote in message ... Browsing thekrib.com, the actwins mailing list archives, and everywhere on the net, I noticed that there are significant differences in the formulation of the CO2 mixture. I know the fundamentals are Mostly Water + Sugar + Yeast + Baking Soda. What would be helpful is to get a % (percentage) recipe. I.e. 70% Water by volume, 25% Sugar by volume + 3% Yeast by volume + 2% Baking Soda by volume. Thanks on any information you can provide. FYI: I just purchased the Nutrafin (Hagen) CO2 Plant system and I don't plan on buying any more "Activator" and "stabilizer" packets. I noticed that the mixture they suggested didn't seem to use too much sugar (about 10% by volume) Your are making the mistake if thinking the recipe is exact, I suspect everyone uses something just a bit different. Heck try jello ;-) It is supposed to work. Bob |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
In article om,
Robert Flory wrote: "David Wee" wrote in message ... 70% Water by volume, 25% Sugar by volume + 3% Yeast by volume + 2% Baking Soda by volume. Your are making the mistake if thinking the recipe is exact, I suspect everyone uses something just a bit different. Heck try jello ;-) It is supposed to work. Yeah, I know. Rather, I just realized that after doing some more reading. Perhaps i could get a comment on the current recipe/technique Im using right now 1. Warm up water with the stove. Dissolve sugar in it. 2. Cool it down by adding cold water to the sugar water. 3. Seaparately, in the bottle, I add a pinch of yeast + about a teaspoon of baking soda + two teaspoons of flour + more cool water. 4. Mix it up in the bottle. Comments? Does this sound okay? Im using the flour because I read flour gives some longetivity and increased yeast activity. -- |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
This happens on mine too, but very rarley. Usually after a water cahnge, so
it may have to do with water chemistry as you say. "David Wee" wrote in message ... In article , Eric Schreiber wrote: (David Wee) wrote: Seems like more effort that you need, but if it's working for you, run with it. Bah, the mixture is working great, i got bubbling within 15 minutes but the problem is with the much-lauded NutraFin (Hagen) "3-dimensional" diffuser. The diffuser starts by bubbling the Co2 at the bottom of a grid where the bubble then travels back and forth, upwards at a gentle angle, where it is designed to get smaller and smaller (showing that its diffusing) as it keeps going upwards a series of inverted ramps. Problem is, the bubbles sometimes lose their "momentum" and just stop at a random place along its upward path on the series of ramps. This causes a "bubble" traffic congestion, and multiple bubbles start coalescing into one gigantic bubble that sits there for often 3 minutes or more. Eventually after more and more nudges from new bubbles that are getting blocked, the big giant bubble finally moves again, but its so massive, the bubble goes up those ramps in a split second, leaving very little time for diffusion. Now, this could be the result of some strange water chemistry between adhesion between pockets of air /water/the plastic material that makes up the diffuser, or simply due to the fact that the gentle upward angles are not steep enough. Sigh. Either I need to start greasing the ramps with a little bit of cooking oil, or I think I need a new diffuser. Suggestions? (i'm half serious about greasing the diffuser). I add a teaspoon of yeast (probably more than I need), put a cap on it, and shake vigorously. The sugar dissolves in the warm water pretty quickly, and I'm ready to go. I remove the cap, and attach the bottle to my CO2 line into the tank. The only real problem I have with my CO2 system is that I've got two bottles, so I can rotate a fresh one on each week. Every flipping time I mess with the bottles, one of them falls over. Without fail. Even when I'm being very careful. This, of course, gets smelly yeasty sticky sugary water into the CO2 line, and gums up the works, blocks the flow, and generally annoys me. -- www.ericschreiber.com -- |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
Another thought: It seems that one can achieve a maximum CO2-water diffusion *rate* with a powerhead/filter intake + bubble system, but retention of the CO2 will be based on the water chemistry (pH, kH, not clear on this, but indeed it seems chemically related). The new "3-d" NutraFin/Hagen Diffuser seems to be a new spin on the inverted bell system, by forcing the CO2 to move throughout the water , but without any outside assistance (like the powerhead/filter intake method), while retaining the simplicity of a bell style system (the ramps are inverted upside down), but still seems to belong primarily within the inverted bell family of reactors. It seems that inverted bell systems are better suited under conditions in which the water chemistry (that is naturally or unnaturally (chemically assisted)) is better able to retain CO2 since there is no mechanical aid to increase the CO2-Water diffusion *rate*. Likewise, Powerhead/Filter + bubble systems can be used under conditions when you have water chemistry that is naturally less inclined to retain CO2 but have a generator that can output alot of CO2 (the 5lb/10lb CO2 pressurized canister method) whereas inverted bell systems have the restriction of being in water that retains/absorbs CO2 well. In short, I think people (including myself) who have an inverted bell type reactor should think twice about the efficiency of the reaction method, and that reactors that don't "overflow" (big gulp of CO2 bubbling to the top) don't necessarily mean that CO2-Water diffusion is operating at maximum capacity. -- |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
"David Wee" wrote in message
... Another thought: It seems that one can achieve a maximum CO2-water diffusion *rate* with a powerhead/filter intake + bubble system, but retention of the CO2 will be based on the water chemistry (pH, kH, not clear on this, but indeed it seems chemically related). check out http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm Assuming no other buffering ions... there is a direct relationship between pH, KH and CO2. Chuck Gadd has a calulator ... "The formula used for this calculation is: CO2 (in PPM) = 3 * KH * 10( 7-pH ) where KH is Carbonate Hardness in degrees. " The (7-pH) is an exponent, the formating got lost in the cut and past. I don't think water chemistry has anything to do with CO2 retention. That is controlled by somebody or other's laws (hey it been 30 years since college) that govern diffusion and etc. Bob |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
In article om,
Robert Flory wrote: "David Wee" wrote in message ... Another thought: It seems that one can achieve a maximum CO2-water diffusion *rate* with a powerhead/filter intake + bubble system, but retention of the CO2 will be based on the water chemistry (pH, kH, not clear on this, but indeed it seems chemically related). check out http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm Assuming no other buffering ions... there is a direct relationship between pH, KH and CO2. Chuck Gadd has a calulator ... "The formula used for this calculation is: CO2 (in PPM) = 3 * KH * 10( 7-pH ) where KH is Carbonate Hardness in degrees. " The (7-pH) is an exponent, the formating got lost in the cut and past. Ahh. So is "CO2 = 3KH * 10^(7-pH)" an equation or a function? I.e. CO2 = f(KH, pH). The differentiation matters if KH and pH are independent of each other, so I am asking if kH and pH are independent. I don't think water chemistry has anything to do with CO2 retention. That is controlled by somebody or other's laws (hey it been 30 years since college) that govern diffusion and etc. Yeah, I think i used retention and current capacity equivalently, when I should have made the distinction. Dave -- |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
"Frank Mamone" wrote:
Eric, What levels of CO2 are you acheiving with your mixture? How big is your tank? It's a 20 gallon with an Eclipse hood. I mention the hood because it causes a lot of surface turbulence, which really impacts CO2 retention. Having made that disclaimer, my CO2 levels are only about 10-13 ppm (pH 7.5 and kH 13.5). Much lower than I'd like. However, I do have a high bubble rate - I'm getting about one bubble per second into my Hagen diffuser thingy. So, I think I've got a good formula going, but I'm restricted by the surface agitation. -- www.ericschreiber.com |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
(David Wee) wrote:
the problem is with the much-lauded NutraFin (Hagen) "3-dimensional" diffuser. [...] the bubbles sometimes lose their "momentum" and just stop at a random place along its upward path [...] Either I need to start greasing the ramps with a little bit of cooking oil, or I think I need a new diffuser. Suggestions? (i'm half serious about greasing the diffuser). You're not far off with the grease idea, in my experience. How new is your diffuser setup? For about the first week after I started mine, I had the same thing you describe - bubbles sticking and piling up instead of moving and diffusing. However, after a week or so, this quit happening. I can only assume that some process 'greased' the track. This is supported by a recent bit of cleaning I did (I had cabomba fragments all over) where I poked at the diffuser a bit with a sponge - I had bubble jams again for a day or two. Certainly you could look into some of the other diffusers available to you, though I doubt you'll find another commercially made one as cheap as the Hagen. Maybe try one of the DIY designs that are available on the web. -- www.ericschreiber.com |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
Eric Schreiber wrote:
my CO2 levels are only about 10-13 ppm (pH 7.5 and kH 13.5) Correction. I did my weekly water tests just now, and have the CO2 up to 19 (pH 7.4 and kH 16). Any moment now my plants should start growing right out of the tank. I'm waiting. Waiting. Any time now, plants! -- www.ericschreiber.com |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
Currently the Nutrafin generator is giving out a bubble just over a
second. I posted to sci.chem under the thread labled "CO2 generation via Yeast + Alcohol removal methods", hoping to find if there was a method where you could have yeast multiply but then remove the alcohol. They were all pretty informative, but the two most relevant posts were something about "Turbo Yeast" which has a proven signficiantly higher tolerance to alcohol than any other yeasts, and the other post was about removing 80 to 90% of the mix after it slows down and just replenishing it with sugar water. Could someone explain more about that? There seems to be three parts to the mixtu the top froth, the middle highly aqueous layer, and the bottom layer mush. SOmeone may care to check out that thread on sci.chem. Okay, so yesterday's pH reading was 7.5 (it has been at 7.5 historically), and after one day of CO2 via not quite DIY Hagen/Nutrafin CO2, the pH is now 6.9. I also dropped on kH from 4 to 3 degrees. According to Chuck Gadd's chart, (ph 7, kh 3), I have 9 ppM CO2 in my water. So I added a teaspoon of crushed coral into my aquaclear sponge area, hoping to push teh kH back from 3 up to at least 3.5. Is this a correct procedure? I expect by morning the pH will be soemwhere around 6.8, but we'll see. To eric: Yeah, the traffic bubble jam has stopped and the bubbles have been going fine now. I secretly love my Nutrafin purchase. That gray bottle looks nice. -- |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
LOL.
So you're using the Hagen diffuser with your own bottle? I'm only getting 1 bubble per 6 seconds tops! I'll try your recipe with my own bottle and see what happens. The thing is it only lasts one week right? I suppose you prepare your new bottle 1 day ahead of time? "Eric Schreiber" wrote in message ... Eric Schreiber wrote: my CO2 levels are only about 10-13 ppm (pH 7.5 and kH 13.5) Correction. I did my weekly water tests just now, and have the CO2 up to 19 (pH 7.4 and kH 16). Any moment now my plants should start growing right out of the tank. I'm waiting. Waiting. Any time now, plants! -- www.ericschreiber.com |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
"Frank Mamone" wrote:
So you're using the Hagen diffuser with your own bottle? Correct. I wanted the diffuser from the moment I saw one in the store. But I also wanted to go on the cheap as much as I could. I'm only getting 1 bubble per 6 seconds tops! I'll try your recipe with my own bottle and see what happens. The thing is it only lasts one week right? I suppose you prepare your new bottle 1 day ahead of time? I'm cheating - I've got two bottles hooked up, with staggered start times. The plan is that each week I'll replace the oldest bottle's mixture, which means that I'm keeping each bottle on for two weeks. And I also keep the bottles in the same cabinet as the ballasts for my DIY lighting modification to the Eclipse hood. This keeps them slightly warmer than room temperature, which probably contributes. The plan hasn't had much chance to work in actual practice yet. As I mentioned, I have a tendency to knock the bottles over which screws things up. Plus, I did a poor job of sealing the airline connection to the caps the first time around, and had to deal with that about two weeks ago. So this is really my first successful run - I haven't knocked the bottles over all week. :) -- www.ericschreiber.com |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
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DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
Phil,
Are you using a homemade bottle and what is you bubble rate and recipe you use? Thanks, Frank "Phil Dietz" wrote in message om... (David Wee) wrote in message ... Problem is, the bubbles sometimes lose their "momentum" and just stop at a random place along its upward path on the series of ramps. This causes a "bubble" traffic congestion, and multiple bubbles start coalescing into one gigantic bubble that sits there for often 3 minutes or more. Try fiddling with the diffuser. A slight angle helps some folks. The bubbles will go faster in one direction, slam into the corner, then go slow in the other direction getting much smaller. Also of note, your bubbles will stop if you have a snail problem. Those buggers park themselves on the stairs....some even park themselves at the air tube end. I've had my Nutrifin since Nov. Only issue is a slight algae growth on the diffuser steps....my oto is small enough to fit, but it just doesnt want to :-) |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
It sounds like I must be doing pretty good with my DIY Co2 setup. I
am using a 2 liter bottle and the nutrafin diffuser. My tank is a 60 gallon. I use the following mixtu 4 cups of warm water, 2 cups of sugar, 1 tspn yeast. Gently shake together and in approx 20 minutes it is ready for the tank. I get 1 bubble oer second with this setup which will last for about the first 3 days. From there, the bubble count will slowly reduce to 1 bubble every 3-4 seconds or so. I change the bottle every week. I did find that the "red star" brand of yeast seems to work better than the others (not sure why). This setup has provided my 60 gallon tank with more than enough Co2. My plant growth has been excellent and the ph stays steady at 7.6. I get pearling throughout the entire tank. One thing I experimented with and think works well, is that I made sort of a non-flow area in the tank. In other words, one half of the tank has a lot of water flow as provided by the aquaclear 500 power filter. the other half of the tank has almost no current since I planted lots of tall plants such as cabomba, hygro, foxtail, ambula, and anubias. This is also the side where the Nutrafin diffuser is located. I think that the calm water allows for much more diffusion of the Co2 into the water. The plants on the side with the current show signs of Co2 fertilization since they are pearling as well and are growing steadily. I have also found that the Co2 bubbles will get "stuck" to the wall of the Nutrafin diffuser quite frequently. Any more suggestions for this one? I hope this helps anyone willing to try. Dave (David Wee) wrote in message ... In article om, Robert Flory wrote: "David Wee" wrote in message ... Another thought: It seems that one can achieve a maximum CO2-water diffusion *rate* with a powerhead/filter intake + bubble system, but retention of the CO2 will be based on the water chemistry (pH, kH, not clear on this, but indeed it seems chemically related). check out http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm Assuming no other buffering ions... there is a direct relationship between pH, KH and CO2. Chuck Gadd has a calulator ... "The formula used for this calculation is: CO2 (in PPM) = 3 * KH * 10( 7-pH ) where KH is Carbonate Hardness in degrees. " The (7-pH) is an exponent, the formating got lost in the cut and past. Ahh. So is "CO2 = 3KH * 10^(7-pH)" an equation or a function? I.e. CO2 = f(KH, pH). The differentiation matters if KH and pH are independent of each other, so I am asking if kH and pH are independent. I don't think water chemistry has anything to do with CO2 retention. That is controlled by somebody or other's laws (hey it been 30 years since college) that govern diffusion and etc. Yeah, I think i used retention and current capacity equivalently, when I should have made the distinction. Dave -- |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
Interesting. So you have alot more total yeast that way.
What type of bubble rate are you getting? "Phil Dietz" wrote in message m... "Frank Mamone" wrote in message ... Phil, Are you using a homemade bottle and what is you bubble rate and recipe you use? I use the Hagen CO2 bottle. I use a semi-standard recipe: fill 1st line with sugar put in 1/4 teaspoon baking soda pour in proofed yeast starter dump in 1/4 teaspoon of wine yeast fill to next line with warm water (dont shake) For proofed yeast starter: stir 1/4 teaspoon of quick-activing yeast in a 1/4 cup warm water that has 1 TBS sugar in it. Let it stand until its foamy on top. I found that using wine-yeast alone is "hard to start" and "fizzles" after a few days. So I mix in quick-rise bread yeast. My last batch lasted about 1 month which is comparable to those special packets one can buy from Hagen. I might try the Jello recipe next time. |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
I finally switched from the (Nutrafin) Hagen Plant Gro canister with a soda
bottle --- my first one. I used 2 cups of sugar, 3/4 teaspoon of yeast (Fleishmann's) and 4 cups of water. I had trouble with the gas leaking at the cap, so put silicone sealant which still leaked until it hardened. I 'll patch it with a glue gun today as someone suggested. Anyhow, I'm getting just slightly over 1 bubble per second! Works great. Brought down my PH to 6.8 and results into a 21ppm CO2 according to the chart. My water is KH is 4.5. I also got rid of the Aquaclear, not because it's a bad filter , but I got a real good deal for a Eheim 2213 Classic for 99$ CDN with media included! They're liquidating the classic models. I also don't have to worry about the surface agitation any more. Thank you all for your recipe suggestions. Frank "Eric Schreiber" wrote in message ... (David Wee) wrote: 1. Warm up water with the stove. Dissolve sugar in it. 2. Cool it down by adding cold water to the sugar water. 3. Seaparately, in the bottle, I add a pinch of yeast + about a teaspoon of baking soda + two teaspoons of flour + more cool water. 4. Mix it up in the bottle. Seems like more effort that you need, but if it's working for you, run with it. I put 1.5 cups of sugar into an empty two liter bottle. Then I put in about one liter of warm water (use the baby bottle test - see if it's too hot for your inner wrist) straight from the tap, filling the bottle halfway. I add a teaspoon of yeast (probably more than I need), put a cap on it, and shake vigorously. The sugar dissolves in the warm water pretty quickly, and I'm ready to go. I remove the cap, and attach the bottle to my CO2 line into the tank. The only real problem I have with my CO2 system is that I've got two bottles, so I can rotate a fresh one on each week. Every flipping time I mess with the bottles, one of them falls over. Without fail. Even when I'm being very careful. This, of course, gets smelly yeasty sticky sugary water into the CO2 line, and gums up the works, blocks the flow, and generally annoys me. -- www.ericschreiber.com |
DIY CO2 Mixtu A definitive Answer?
Eric, glad to hear your getting the same results as I am with the Red
Star yeast. By the way, I also found that the Co2 production lasted much longer using this brand over the others. dpots Eric Schreiber wrote in message . .. (dpots) wrote: I did find that the "red star" brand of yeast seems to work better than the others After reading this yesterday, I bought some Red Star yeast last night, as I had run out of what I'd been using. Holy cow, this is a lot more active. I put a new bottle on my two-bottle setup perhaps two hours ago. At this moment, I'm getting a bubble rate of more than three per second! I've never had this level of CO2 production before, even with two fresh bottles of the other brand I was using (yellow-ish packets, forget the name). It'll be very interesting to do a pH reading in a few more hours to see what effect this has, and also to see how long this yeast continues the high production level. Thanks for the recommendation. |
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