Browsing thekrib.com, the actwins mailing list archives, and everywhere on
the net, I noticed that there are significant differences in the
formulation of the CO2 mixture.

I know the fundamentals are Mostly Water + Sugar + Yeast + Baking Soda.

What would be helpful is to get a % (percentage) recipe. I.e.

70% Water by volume, 25% Sugar by volume + 3% Yeast by volume + 2% Baking
Soda by volume.


Thanks on any information you can provide.

FYI: I just purchased the Nutrafin (Hagen) CO2 Plant system and I don't
plan on buying any more "Activator" and "stabilizer" packets. I noticed
that the mixture they suggested didn't seem to use too much sugar (about
10% by volume)


--

"David Wee" wrote in message
...
Browsing thekrib.com, the actwins mailing list archives, and everywhere on
the net, I noticed that there are significant differences in the
formulation of the CO2 mixture.

I know the fundamentals are Mostly Water + Sugar + Yeast + Baking Soda.

What would be helpful is to get a % (percentage) recipe. I.e.

70% Water by volume, 25% Sugar by volume + 3% Yeast by volume + 2% Baking
Soda by volume.


Thanks on any information you can provide.

FYI: I just purchased the Nutrafin (Hagen) CO2 Plant system and I don't
plan on buying any more "Activator" and "stabilizer" packets. I noticed
that the mixture they suggested didn't seem to use too much sugar (about
10% by volume)

Your are making the mistake if thinking the recipe is exact, I suspect
everyone uses something just a bit different. Heck try jello ;-) It is
supposed to work.

Bob

In article om,
Robert Flory wrote:

"David Wee" wrote in message
...
70% Water by volume, 25% Sugar by volume + 3% Yeast by volume + 2% Baking
Soda by volume.
Your are making the mistake if thinking the recipe is exact, I suspect
everyone uses something just a bit different. Heck try jello ;-) It is
supposed to work.


Yeah, I know. Rather, I just realized that after doing some more reading.

Perhaps i could get a comment on the current recipe/technique Im using
right now

1. Warm up water with the stove. Dissolve sugar in it.
2. Cool it down by adding cold water to the sugar water.

3. Seaparately, in the bottle, I add a pinch of yeast + about a teaspoon
of baking soda + two teaspoons of flour + more cool water.

4. Mix it up in the bottle.

Comments? Does this sound okay? Im using the flour because I read flour
gives some longetivity and increased yeast activity.

--

(David Wee) wrote:

1. Warm up water with the stove. Dissolve sugar in it.
2. Cool it down by adding cold water to the sugar water.
3. Seaparately, in the bottle, I add a pinch of yeast + about a teaspoon
of baking soda + two teaspoons of flour + more cool water.
4. Mix it up in the bottle.

Seems like more effort that you need, but if it's working for you, run
with it.

I put 1.5 cups of sugar into an empty two liter bottle. Then I put in
about one liter of warm water (use the baby bottle test - see if it's
too hot for your inner wrist) straight from the tap, filling the
bottle halfway.

I add a teaspoon of yeast (probably more than I need), put a cap on
it, and shake vigorously. The sugar dissolves in the warm water pretty
quickly, and I'm ready to go. I remove the cap, and attach the bottle
to my CO2 line into the tank.

The only real problem I have with my CO2 system is that I've got two
bottles, so I can rotate a fresh one on each week. Every flipping time
I mess with the bottles, one of them falls over. Without fail. Even
when I'm being very careful. This, of course, gets smelly yeasty
sticky sugary water into the CO2 line, and gums up the works, blocks
the flow, and generally annoys me.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

This happens on mine too, but very rarley. Usually after a water cahnge, so
it may have to do with water chemistry as you say.


"David Wee" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Eric Schreiber wrote:
(David Wee) wrote:

Seems like more effort that you need, but if it's working for you, run
with it.

Bah, the mixture is working great, i got bubbling within 15 minutes but
the problem is with the much-lauded NutraFin (Hagen) "3-dimensional"
diffuser.

The diffuser starts by bubbling the Co2 at the bottom of a grid where the
bubble then travels back and forth, upwards at a gentle angle, where it is
designed to get smaller and smaller (showing that its diffusing) as it
keeps going upwards a series of inverted ramps. Problem is, the bubbles
sometimes lose their "momentum" and just stop at a random place along its
upward path on the series of ramps. This causes a "bubble" traffic
congestion, and multiple bubbles start coalescing into one gigantic bubble
that sits there for often 3 minutes or more. Eventually after more and
more nudges from new bubbles that are getting blocked, the big giant
bubble finally moves again, but its so massive, the bubble goes up those
ramps in a split second, leaving very little time for diffusion.

Now, this could be the result of some strange water chemistry between
adhesion between pockets of air /water/the plastic material that makes up
the diffuser, or simply due to the fact that the gentle upward angles are
not steep enough.

Sigh.

Either I need to start greasing the ramps with a little bit of cooking
oil, or I think I need a new diffuser. Suggestions? (i'm half serious
about greasing the diffuser).



I add a teaspoon of yeast (probably more than I need), put a cap on
it, and shake vigorously. The sugar dissolves in the warm water pretty
quickly, and I'm ready to go. I remove the cap, and attach the bottle
to my CO2 line into the tank.

The only real problem I have with my CO2 system is that I've got two
bottles, so I can rotate a fresh one on each week. Every flipping time
I mess with the bottles, one of them falls over. Without fail. Even
when I'm being very careful. This, of course, gets smelly yeasty
sticky sugary water into the CO2 line, and gums up the works, blocks
the flow, and generally annoys me.


--
www.ericschreiber.com


--

Another thought:

It seems that one can achieve a maximum CO2-water diffusion *rate* with a
powerhead/filter intake + bubble system, but retention of the CO2 will be
based on the water chemistry (pH, kH, not clear on this, but indeed it
seems chemically related).

The new "3-d" NutraFin/Hagen Diffuser seems to be a new spin on the
inverted bell system, by forcing the CO2 to move throughout the water ,
but without any outside assistance (like the powerhead/filter intake
method), while retaining the simplicity of a bell style system (the ramps
are inverted upside down), but still seems to belong primarily within the
inverted bell family of reactors.

It seems that inverted bell systems are better suited under conditions in
which the water chemistry (that is naturally or unnaturally (chemically
assisted)) is better able to retain CO2 since there is no mechanical aid
to increase the CO2-Water diffusion *rate*.

Likewise, Powerhead/Filter + bubble systems can be used under conditions
when you have water chemistry that is naturally less inclined to retain
CO2 but have a generator that can output alot of CO2 (the 5lb/10lb CO2
pressurized canister method) whereas inverted bell systems have the
restriction of being in water that retains/absorbs CO2 well.

In short, I think people (including myself) who have an inverted bell
type reactor should think twice about the efficiency of the reaction
method, and that reactors that don't "overflow" (big gulp of CO2 bubbling
to the top) don't necessarily mean that CO2-Water diffusion is operating
at maximum capacity.



--

"David Wee" wrote in message
...

Another thought:

It seems that one can achieve a maximum CO2-water diffusion *rate* with a
powerhead/filter intake + bubble system, but retention of the CO2 will be
based on the water chemistry (pH, kH, not clear on this, but indeed it
seems chemically related).

check out http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

Assuming no other buffering ions... there is a direct relationship between
pH, KH and CO2. Chuck Gadd has a calulator ... "The formula used for this
calculation is: CO2 (in PPM) = 3 * KH * 10( 7-pH ) where KH is Carbonate
Hardness in degrees. " The (7-pH) is an exponent, the formating got lost
in the cut and past.

I don't think water chemistry has anything to do with CO2 retention. That
is controlled by somebody or other's laws (hey it been 30 years since
college) that govern diffusion and etc.

Bob

In article om,
Robert Flory wrote:
"David Wee" wrote in message
...

Another thought:

It seems that one can achieve a maximum CO2-water diffusion *rate* with a
powerhead/filter intake + bubble system, but retention of the CO2 will be
based on the water chemistry (pH, kH, not clear on this, but indeed it
seems chemically related).

check out http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

Assuming no other buffering ions... there is a direct relationship between
pH, KH and CO2. Chuck Gadd has a calulator ... "The formula used for this
calculation is: CO2 (in PPM) = 3 * KH * 10( 7-pH ) where KH is Carbonate
Hardness in degrees. " The (7-pH) is an exponent, the formating got lost
in the cut and past.

Ahh. So is "CO2 = 3KH * 10^(7-pH)" an equation or a function? I.e. CO2 =
f(KH, pH). The differentiation matters if KH and pH are independent of
each other, so I am asking if kH and pH are independent.



I don't think water chemistry has anything to do with CO2 retention. That
is controlled by somebody or other's laws (hey it been 30 years since
college) that govern diffusion and etc.

Yeah, I think i used retention and current capacity equivalently, when I
should have made the distinction.


Dave
--

"Frank Mamone" wrote:

Eric,
What levels of CO2 are you acheiving with your mixture?
How big is your tank?

It's a 20 gallon with an Eclipse hood. I mention the hood because it
causes a lot of surface turbulence, which really impacts CO2
retention.

Having made that disclaimer, my CO2 levels are only about 10-13 ppm
(pH 7.5 and kH 13.5). Much lower than I'd like. However, I do have a
high bubble rate - I'm getting about one bubble per second into my
Hagen diffuser thingy.

So, I think I've got a good formula going, but I'm restricted by the
surface agitation.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

(David Wee) wrote:

the problem is with the much-lauded NutraFin (Hagen)
"3-dimensional" diffuser.
[...]
the bubbles sometimes lose their "momentum" and just
stop at a random place along its upward path
[...]
Either I need to start greasing the ramps with a
little bit of cooking oil, or I think I need a new
diffuser. Suggestions? (i'm half serious about greasing
the diffuser).

You're not far off with the grease idea, in my experience. How new is
your diffuser setup? For about the first week after I started mine, I
had the same thing you describe - bubbles sticking and piling up
instead of moving and diffusing.

However, after a week or so, this quit happening. I can only assume
that some process 'greased' the track. This is supported by a recent
bit of cleaning I did (I had cabomba fragments all over) where I poked
at the diffuser a bit with a sponge - I had bubble jams again for a
day or two.


Certainly you could look into some of the other diffusers available to
you, though I doubt you'll find another commercially made one as cheap
as the Hagen. Maybe try one of the DIY designs that are available on
the web.

--
www.ericschreiber.com

Eric Schreiber wrote:

my CO2 levels are only about 10-13 ppm (pH 7.5 and kH 13.5)

Correction. I did my weekly water tests just now, and have the CO2 up
to 19 (pH 7.4 and kH 16).

Any moment now my plants should start growing right out of the tank.
I'm waiting.

Waiting.







Any time now, plants!


--
www.ericschreiber.com

Currently the Nutrafin generator is giving out a bubble just over a
second. I posted to sci.chem under the thread labled "CO2 generation via
Yeast + Alcohol removal methods", hoping to find if there was a method
where you could have yeast multiply but then remove the alcohol.
They were all pretty informative, but the two most relevant posts were
something about "Turbo Yeast" which has a proven signficiantly higher
tolerance to alcohol than any other yeasts, and the other post was about
removing 80 to 90% of the mix after it slows down and just replenishing it
with sugar water. Could someone explain more about that? There seems to be
three parts to the mixtu the top froth, the middle highly aqueous
layer, and the bottom layer mush. SOmeone may care to check out that
thread on sci.chem.

Okay, so yesterday's pH reading was 7.5 (it has been at 7.5 historically),
and after one day of CO2 via not quite DIY Hagen/Nutrafin CO2, the pH is
now 6.9.

I also dropped on kH from 4 to 3 degrees. According to Chuck Gadd's chart,
(ph 7, kh 3), I have 9 ppM CO2 in my water. So I added a teaspoon of
crushed coral into my aquaclear sponge area, hoping to push teh kH back
from 3 up to at least 3.5. Is this a correct procedure?

I expect by morning the pH will be soemwhere around 6.8, but we'll see.

To eric: Yeah, the traffic bubble jam has stopped and the bubbles have
been going fine now. I secretly love my Nutrafin purchase. That gray
bottle looks nice.


--

LOL.

So you're using the Hagen diffuser with your own bottle?

I'm only getting 1 bubble per 6 seconds tops!

I'll try your recipe with my own bottle and see what happens. The thing is
it only lasts one week right?

I suppose you prepare your new bottle 1 day ahead of time?



"Eric Schreiber" wrote in message
...
Eric Schreiber wrote:

my CO2 levels are only about 10-13 ppm (pH 7.5 and kH 13.5)

Correction. I did my weekly water tests just now, and have the CO2 up
to 19 (pH 7.4 and kH 16).

Any moment now my plants should start growing right out of the tank.
I'm waiting.

Waiting.







Any time now, plants!


--
www.ericschreiber.com

"Frank Mamone" wrote:

So you're using the Hagen diffuser with your own bottle?

Correct. I wanted the diffuser from the moment I saw one in the store.
But I also wanted to go on the cheap as much as I could.

I'm only getting 1 bubble per 6 seconds tops!
I'll try your recipe with my own bottle and see what happens. The thing is
it only lasts one week right?
I suppose you prepare your new bottle 1 day ahead of time?

I'm cheating - I've got two bottles hooked up, with staggered start
times. The plan is that each week I'll replace the oldest bottle's
mixture, which means that I'm keeping each bottle on for two weeks.

And I also keep the bottles in the same cabinet as the ballasts for my
DIY lighting modification to the Eclipse hood. This keeps them
slightly warmer than room temperature, which probably contributes.

The plan hasn't had much chance to work in actual practice yet. As I
mentioned, I have a tendency to knock the bottles over which screws
things up. Plus, I did a poor job of sealing the airline connection to
the caps the first time around, and had to deal with that about two
weeks ago.

So this is really my first successful run - I haven't knocked the
bottles over all week.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

(David Wee) wrote in message ...

Problem is, the bubbles
sometimes lose their "momentum" and just stop at a random place along its
upward path on the series of ramps. This causes a "bubble" traffic
congestion, and multiple bubbles start coalescing into one gigantic bubble
that sits there for often 3 minutes or more.

Try fiddling with the diffuser. A slight angle helps some folks. The
bubbles will go faster in one direction, slam into the corner, then go
slow in the other direction getting much smaller.

Also of note, your bubbles will stop if you have a snail problem.
Those buggers park themselves on the stairs....some even park
themselves at the air tube end.

I've had my Nutrifin since Nov. Only issue is a slight algae growth
on the diffuser steps....my oto is small enough to fit, but it just
doesnt want to :-)