Sagittaria & Vallisneria
For lighting I have 2 40 watt
tubes... 1) 10000K and one CoralLife Nutra Grow Plant lamp. This gives me 80 watts for my 75 gallon. That is not enough. That's why your plants aren't growing. I would at least double that light. Another light strip, a shop light, something. I suspect your algae problem will go away once your lighting is adequate. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Hi.
I planted some Sagittaria and Vallisneria about 6 months ago and they were growing great for a couple of months. Most of them even produced a number of baby plant shoots. But for the past several months, the baby shoots as well as the original plants have not been growing much. The daughter plants got to about 2 inches and just stopped growing. I have a 75 gallon tank with these plants as well as 3 large Amazon Swords, some Annubias, Java Fern, Melon Sword, and some Onion bulbs. My plants look good but not like I want them to. I use Florish liquid 2 or 3 times per week as well as the carbon and some Potassium about once per week. For lighting I have 2 40 watt tubes... 1) 10000K and one CoralLife Nutra Grow Plant lamp. This gives me 80 watts for my 75 gallon. Should I have more light and what would be a better combination? I have Florite for the substrate. For filter I have one Ehiem Professional II 2028 with surface extractor. The filter contains Black Diamond carbon on the bottom tray, the ceramic tubes on the second, and the course rock on the top along with the sponge seperators. I also added some floss under the first stage before the water goes through the carbon. How does this sound to you guys? This was recommend from a guy at The Fish Store & More here in Atlanta. I keep the water temperature at 78. That is all I have for circulation. No other power heads. Would you recommend for water current? Also, another question is that my Amazon Swords get algae on their leaves. Most of the leaves are nice, but some of the leaves have started getting algea growth towards the end of the leaves. Its a dark green algea that could almost be described as a sheet of algea. I have trimmed off a handful of the older leaves that were about half covered. I have no algea growth on any rocks, the bottom, or other plants except some algea growth on some of the older Annubias leaves. I have no surface scum. I do have to wipe the inside front of the tank every couple of weeks to remove algea. Just light green stuff. My water stays nice and clear with no green color or discoloration. I do about 15% water change every 2 or 3 weeks. My fish consist of 2 large Angelfish, 6 2" Clown Loaches, several Otto and Chinese algea eater, 5 brochis splendens, 2 medium sized rainbow fish, and a school of 8 of both Serpae and Red-Eye tetras. Oh, and one Whiptail catfish. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Hi, Thanks for the "more light" advice. I kinda thought that would be
the case. I will buy another fixture today. I wanted to update my post with my current water conditions, before lights come on in the morning. PH = 7.5 KH = 4 NO2 = .3 mg/l GH = ~2 NH3 = .25 mg/l Thanks for the time taken reading my post. Thanks, Jesse |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
You can probably grow decent sags at that light level, although they will
get tall and be a bit mangy. Thin and space them out regularly to keep light getting into the centers of the clumps. The vals will never make it, though, sorry. kush SlimFlem wrote in message om... Hi. I planted some Sagittaria and Vallisneria about 6 months ago and they were growing great for a couple of months. Most of them even produced a number of baby plant shoots. But for the past several months, the baby shoots as well as the original plants have not been growing much. The daughter plants got to about 2 inches and just stopped growing. I have a 75 gallon tank with these plants as well as 3 large Amazon Swords, some Annubias, Java Fern, Melon Sword, and some Onion bulbs. My plants look good but not like I want them to. I use Florish liquid 2 or 3 times per week as well as the carbon and some Potassium about once per week. For lighting I have 2 40 watt tubes... 1) 10000K and one CoralLife Nutra Grow Plant lamp. This gives me 80 watts for my 75 gallon. Should I have more light and what would be a better combination? I have Florite for the substrate. For filter I have one Ehiem Professional II 2028 with surface extractor. The filter contains Black Diamond carbon on the bottom tray, the ceramic tubes on the second, and the course rock on the top along with the sponge seperators. I also added some floss under the first stage before the water goes through the carbon. How does this sound to you guys? This was recommend from a guy at The Fish Store & More here in Atlanta. I keep the water temperature at 78. That is all I have for circulation. No other power heads. Would you recommend for water current? Also, another question is that my Amazon Swords get algae on their leaves. Most of the leaves are nice, but some of the leaves have started getting algea growth towards the end of the leaves. Its a dark green algea that could almost be described as a sheet of algea. I have trimmed off a handful of the older leaves that were about half covered. I have no algea growth on any rocks, the bottom, or other plants except some algea growth on some of the older Annubias leaves. I have no surface scum. I do have to wipe the inside front of the tank every couple of weeks to remove algea. Just light green stuff. My water stays nice and clear with no green color or discoloration. I do about 15% water change every 2 or 3 weeks. My fish consist of 2 large Angelfish, 6 2" Clown Loaches, several Otto and Chinese algea eater, 5 brochis splendens, 2 medium sized rainbow fish, and a school of 8 of both Serpae and Red-Eye tetras. Oh, and one Whiptail catfish. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Per recommendations of several people and the LFS, I bought a Compact
Flor light. It has 2 10000K and 2 6500K. Each bulb is 65 watts. I also kept one of the standard strip lights in the front of the tank with a plant bulb in it. I did this mainly to ensure my Mellon Sword has enough light. I think it is a 6500K as well. The tank is much brighter, but not too bright. For the PH, the local LFS recommened I bring it down to 6.5. I am using SeaChem's Stabilizer and Discus Buffer to do this. My Anglefish and Loaches should enjoy the lower PH and the plants should respond better as well. -jesse (SlimFlem) wrote in message . com... Hi, Thanks for the "more light" advice. I kinda thought that would be the case. I will buy another fixture today. I wanted to update my post with my current water conditions, before lights come on in the morning. PH = 7.5 KH = 4 NO2 = .3 mg/l GH = ~2 NH3 = .25 mg/l Thanks for the time taken reading my post. Thanks, Jesse |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Per recommendations of several people and the LFS, I bought a Compact
Flor light. It has 2 10000K and 2 6500K. Each bulb is 65 watts. I also kept one of the standard strip lights in the front of the tank with a plant bulb in it. I did this mainly to ensure my Mellon Sword has enough light. I think it is a 6500K as well. The tank is much brighter, but not too bright. Yikes! Four 65 W PCFs over a 75 gallon tank is a *lot* of light. Plus the strip light! That's too much! If you're going to have 4x65W of light over this tank, you need a compressed CO2 system. It's *not* optional. Until you get a compressed CO2 system set up, turn off half the lights. Two 65W bulbs will be plenty over this tank. For the PH, the local LFS recommened I bring it down to 6.5. I am using SeaChem's Stabilizer and Discus Buffer to do this. My Anglefish and Loaches should enjoy the lower PH and the plants should respond better as well. Either you misunderstood what they told you, or they don't know what they are talking about. Lower the pH in and of itself does not help plants. Adding CO2 lowers pH, and it's the CO2 that the plants need. Lowering the pH by other means is useless. To repeat, use only half your new lights until you get a compressed CO2 system set up. There *is* such a thing as too much light! Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
For filter I have one Ehiem Professional II 2028 with surface
extractor. The filter contains Black Diamond carbon on the bottom tray, the ceramic tubes on the second, and the course rock on the top along with the sponge seperators. I also added some floss under the first stage before the water goes through the carbon. If you are injecting CO2, then you should consider more lighting. About 1 watt per gallon in a non-injected tank is ok, and 2-4 watts per gallon in an injected tank. IME, as plants grow in, and lamps age, more lighting may be needed than was initially the case when the tank is first set up. So, initially your 80 watts might have been minimally enough light. Now, it may not be. I am not sure how much Flourish you are adding. Are you checking your iron levels? There are test kits available that can give you a rough idea of how much iron is in the water. I use this level as a guide to whether I need to add more "micronutrient" fertilizer (i.e., Flourish or Tropica Master Grow) or not. With a relatively low light level, I would be surprised if you need to add Flourish three times a week. If your iron is around .1 ppm, then you need not add fertilizer. If you have a lot more than this, then you are probably overdosing. (Seachem makes a good iron test kit.) Change your water more often, and change more of it. If you have not discovered the python, this is a beautiful tool. It makes water changes much easier. I would change 40 to 50 percent of your tank water once per week. The sheet algae you mention sounds like blue-green slime algae, which is actually a bacteria. If it is indeed blue green algae, it normally rubs off of your plants and tank equipment quite easily. Typically, this type of algae kinda smells bad too. Erythromycin and other antibiotics can treat it, though if you do not get your light and nutrient mix correct it will return. Many claim that low nitrate levels cause blue-green algae to appear. In the case of low nitrate levels, the blue green algae tends to form on the filter return or somewhere that gets air easily. (I understand that this type of bacteria can extract nitrogen from the air directly, and so tends to favor locations where this can happen more easily.) I always recommend Chuck Gadd's site, lots of very good and accessible articles there to help you understand everything from CO2 injection to fertilizing your plants. Check it out: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/. He has an article there about plant nutrients that you should read. He also has an article about dosing your tank with nitrate should it need it. (With the amount of water you are changing and the frequency that you are changing it, I find it hard to believe that you have a shortage of nitrates. Low nitrates are not the only reason blue green algae can appear, but that is a scenario I am familiar with. Other readers may be able to help me understand the circumstances under which blue-green algae occurs.) Also, I would take the carbon out of the filter. Certain important trace elements that you are trying to maintain (by adding Flourish) may well get partially or entirely absorbed by the carbon, especially just after you put new carbon in. I would get rid of the carbon in favor of some of the ceramic loops that Eheim sells. You are really just trying to create a hospitable place for nitrifying bacteria to live. The other filter substrate Eheim sells is probably better for a planted tank, since it accomplishes this without taking out trace elements. |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
LeighMo wrote ... ...turn off half the lights. Two 65W bulbs will be plenty over this tank. Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2. ...Lowering the pH by other means is useless. Much, much, much worse than useless if those products contain phosphates! If you're proposing to fire-up 4.5 watts per gallon over a solution of phosphates and nitrates, you had best be standing by with the scrapers and scouring pads because you are going to be able to watch that algae growing! Don't sweat the pH too much. My 75 gallon is steady at between 7.4 and 7.5 with three soda bottles of CO2 and 220 watts of lighting. The plants are flourishing and need to be pruned back weekly, and I have happy, healthy angelfish. You'll only really need to bring your pH down under 7 if you want to breed your angels. kush "You can't have everything - where would you put it?" |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too
dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2. My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only 130w. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Let me give a little more detail:
The LFS (The Fish Store & More in Atlanta) said with this new light, I should start by having only 8 hours of light per day and gradually increasing it to no more than 12. This will allow the plants time to adjust to the more intense lighting. Also, my tank is not shining like the sun, like some of you might be thinking. Again, the LFS said CO2 injection is not *really* required and all it is said to be just because of high lighting levels. Several of the guys there said they have never used CO2 with high light levels and have always had great results. In addition to using carbon or PuriGen. Thoughts? Concerning the PH, again the LFS said the Angels and Loaches would enjoy the 6.5 more than 7.5. The statement about the plants is that the 6.5 PH will allow the plants to synthisize elements/minerals/etc. better than at 7.5. How true this is, I'm not really sure. The way I am doing this is by using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus Buffer. These do contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad thing? The way I was told to use this product is to follow the ratio on the containers by mixing the product in a jug of my tank water and pouring it back in. This will be done once per week until the PH is at 6.5. Also, after water changes. Does this not sound correct? Why? Would it really hurt to do this? And, my tank is not couldy, the water is crystal clear. It sounds like you guys are thinking I am going to have an algea breakout from these new lights. The LFS guys did say initally there might be a slight increase in water algea, but it would go away after a few days since the plants will be robbing it of nutrients. Thoughts please. THanks. tose (LeighMo) wrote in message ... Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2. My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only 130w. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Two thoughts. First, Leigh is right. Four 65 watt lamps is a lot of light
for a non-injected tank. That coupled with the ph adjustment could spell trouble-- and here is why. Normally, ph adjustment products accomplish the ph reset by using a phosphate based ph buffer. This phosphate together with your high light levels could well set up an environment that is ideal for brush algae-- very ugly stuff that is hard to get rid of. These products do not last in the water anyhow. I would not use them. Why not reset your ph the way that has proven itself-- with CO2 injection? Having said these things, I will be very interested to see if all of these ramblings of mine turn out to be correct. I can only tell you what I have seen happen in my tanks-- I used a ph adjuster a long time back, before I was really into heavily planted tanks, for breading (or attempting to breed) harlequin rasboras. I never got the fish to spawn, but I did get all kinds of weird and smelly algae to grow. Please take a look at the web site I recommended. The light fixture you purchased will be perfect for you in the long run after you get CO2 going. On a side note, I did some further research to discover that in addition to the low nitrate scenario I mentioned in a previous post, blue-green algae can form in low oxygen conditions which frequently occur when circulation is poor. You mention you do not have much water movement. Your low light levels, low circulation environment may have caused low oxygen conditions. Improve the circulation, get your new lights going (I recommend 130 watts for now until you get CO2 going) and dose your tank with 200 mg of erythromycin phosphate per 10 gallons of water. This should clear the algae on your swords. -Bruce Geist "SlimFlem" wrote in message om... Let me give a little more detail: The LFS (The Fish Store & More in Atlanta) said with this new light, I should start by having only 8 hours of light per day and gradually increasing it to no more than 12. This will allow the plants time to adjust to the more intense lighting. Also, my tank is not shining like the sun, like some of you might be thinking. Again, the LFS said CO2 injection is not *really* required and all it is said to be just because of high lighting levels. Several of the guys there said they have never used CO2 with high light levels and have always had great results. In addition to using carbon or PuriGen. Thoughts? Concerning the PH, again the LFS said the Angels and Loaches would enjoy the 6.5 more than 7.5. The statement about the plants is that the 6.5 PH will allow the plants to synthisize elements/minerals/etc. better than at 7.5. How true this is, I'm not really sure. The way I am doing this is by using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus Buffer. These do contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad thing? The way I was told to use this product is to follow the ratio on the containers by mixing the product in a jug of my tank water and pouring it back in. This will be done once per week until the PH is at 6.5. Also, after water changes. Does this not sound correct? Why? Would it really hurt to do this? And, my tank is not couldy, the water is crystal clear. It sounds like you guys are thinking I am going to have an algea breakout from these new lights. The LFS guys did say initally there might be a slight increase in water algea, but it would go away after a few days since the plants will be robbing it of nutrients. Thoughts please. THanks. tose (LeighMo) wrote in message ... Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2. My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only 130w. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
SlimFlem wrote ... The statement about the plants is that the 6.5 PH will allow the plants to synthisize elements/minerals/etc. better than at 7.5. How true this is, I'm not really sure. Mmm, there is something about trace elements precipitating out, which I think is related to total hardness, which is related to pH, but I'm not clear on the chemistry myself. Any water chemistry geeks tuned into this thread? ... using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus Buffer. These do contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad thing? This is a really, really bad thing for two reasons. First, you are providing more phosphate than your plants can readily use, thereby encouraging the proliferation of algae. Second, these products do not persist in the aquarium - because your plants and algae are using them, and you're dumping them when you perform water changes - which means you will be perpetually adjusting your water chemistry and struggling to achieve and maintain a desirable equilibrium. ... It sounds like you guys are thinking I am going to have an algea breakout from these new lights. Yes, we are; from the lights, the phosphates, and the lack of sufficient CO2 (see below). The LFS guys did say initally there might be a slight increase in water algea, but it would go away after a few days since the plants will be robbing it of nutrients. This COULD be true, provided the plants have everything they need to sustain vigorous growth in the correct balance. Biologic growth is limited by whatever factor is in least supply. If you are providing ample light for photosynthesis and abundant nutrients but the plants lack sufficient CO2, they will not repeat not grow. At the light levels you are proposing (even leaving aside the issue of the phosphates), supplementing with CO2 is NOT optional. With 4.5 watts per gallon and a nutrient-rich water stream, I would start with a minimum of three soda bottles of DIY CO2. Maybe more. Alternatively, I would get a signed and witnessed agreement from your LFS to clean your tank out for you after two months. Tee hee. Regarding the variable lighting schedule, I would recommend against that, too. The goal you are shooting for is to achieve a stable, desirable environment in your tank. The more factors you have to adjust, the harder that will be. I'd recommend a constant equatorial eleven hour day (where the first and last half hour of each day, the sun strikes the water at such an extreme angle that very little light penetrates more than a few inches into the water). kush "You can't have everything - where would you put it?" |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
In article ,
kush wrote: You can probably grow decent sags at that light level, although they will get tall and be a bit mangy. Thin and space them out regularly to keep light getting into the centers of the clumps. The vals will never make it, though, sorry. Disagree. I stuck one of those "red marble val" the huge one with red tiger stripes in a 30 gallon tank with a single 20W fluorescent. It did nothing for about 6 months then tok over the tank. I removed tons of small plants and the mother plans had about a dozen leaves all over 4 feet long. -- Richard Sexton | Mercedes Parts: http://parts.mbz.org http://www.mbz.org Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org W108, W126 Mercedes Classifieds: http://ads.mbz.org ** new -- Watch list: http://watches.list.mbz.org |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
SlimFlem wrote:
Again, the LFS said CO2 injection is not *really* required and all it is said to be just because of high lighting levels. Several of the guys there said they have never used CO2 with high light levels and have always had great results. In addition to using carbon or PuriGen. Thoughts? I have a 110 gallon tank with a 110 Watt compact fluorescent. I don't have CO2, but I do use Fluorish Excel when I remember... :) Most of my plants are doing great, including several so-called high-light plants like swords and crypts. I have to prune weekly my cabomba, hygrophilia, and myriophyllum. It's working for me. -- Victor M. Martinez | The University of Texas at Austin | Department of Chemical Engineering http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv | Austin, TX 78712 If we knew what we were doing it would not be called research, would it? |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
What kind of reflectors do you have in the hoods?
All-Glass "reflectors" (and I use the term loosely) suck. I retrofitted my 48" hoods with CF bulbs and reflectors from AH Supply. It's AMAZING how much brighter they are with decent reflectors in them. I still use my All-Glass canopy, so I understand what you're asking. They have those little 22" "windows" in them which do somewhat serve to focus the light straight downward. If you were to place your light hoods directly over the tank (like I do when I'm pruning) without using the canopy, I'm sure you would see a big difference. For me, I trade a few watts of dispersed lighting for the convenience of all those slots and hinged openings. kush SlimFlem wrote in message om... Another thing about this new light (Coral Life 4 x 65), it only casts a lot of light to the back of the tank while the front gets less than it used to. I would say the light from this fixture is much more "focused" than regular tubes. Would you agree with this? Leigh, looking at your web site and reading you tank specs, it sounds like you have 2 CF fixtures with 2 bulbs each. Is that correct. Your tank looks so bright! Mine is bright, just not like yours is bright. If I take this CF light back and get two fixtures with 2 tubes each, I believe that would distribute the light better. What do you think? Also, how many of you use the "standard" glass tops like from All-Glass? Thanks for reading all the ranting, I just want to get my lighting like it should/needs to be. Thanks, Jesse tose (LeighMo) wrote in message ... Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2. My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only 130w. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
I have bad luck with vals, so I'm not going to try to pass myself off as an
authority. I always thought it was the light... hmmf. Certainly, 130 watts over a 75 gallon is plenty for the sags, although they will be taller and not grow as densely as they would with more light. kush LeighMo wrote in message ... Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2. My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only 130w. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Another thing about this new light (Coral Life 4 x 65), it only casts
a lot of light to the back of the tank while the front gets less than it used to. I would say the light from this fixture is much more "focused" than regular tubes. Would you agree with this? Leigh, looking at your web site and reading you tank specs, it sounds like you have 2 CF fixtures with 2 bulbs each. Is that correct. Your tank looks so bright! Mine is bright, just not like yours is bright. If I take this CF light back and get two fixtures with 2 tubes each, I believe that would distribute the light better. What do you think? Also, how many of you use the "standard" glass tops like from All-Glass? Thanks for reading all the ranting, I just want to get my lighting like it should/needs to be. Thanks, Jesse tose (LeighMo) wrote in message ... Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2. My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only 130w. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Thanks for all the advice and words of wisdom guys. I will take your
advice and use it. Kush, what is the best way for me to "inject" the DIY CO2 bottles into my water? Should I use a simple airstone or run a airtube into my filter intake or what?...or maybe a hard tube suctioned to the inside glass that bubbles up??? What have you done that works good? Thanks. "kush" wrote in message ... SlimFlem wrote ... The statement about the plants is that the 6.5 PH will allow the plants to synthisize elements/minerals/etc. better than at 7.5. How true this is, I'm not really sure. Mmm, there is something about trace elements precipitating out, which I think is related to total hardness, which is related to pH, but I'm not clear on the chemistry myself. Any water chemistry geeks tuned into this thread? ... using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus Buffer. These do contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad thing? This is a really, really bad thing for two reasons. First, you are providing more phosphate than your plants can readily use, thereby encouraging the proliferation of algae. Second, these products do not persist in the aquarium - because your plants and algae are using them, and you're dumping them when you perform water changes - which means you will be perpetually adjusting your water chemistry and struggling to achieve and maintain a desirable equilibrium. ... It sounds like you guys are thinking I am going to have an algea breakout from these new lights. Yes, we are; from the lights, the phosphates, and the lack of sufficient CO2 (see below). The LFS guys did say initally there might be a slight increase in water algea, but it would go away after a few days since the plants will be robbing it of nutrients. This COULD be true, provided the plants have everything they need to sustain vigorous growth in the correct balance. Biologic growth is limited by whatever factor is in least supply. If you are providing ample light for photosynthesis and abundant nutrients but the plants lack sufficient CO2, they will not repeat not grow. At the light levels you are proposing (even leaving aside the issue of the phosphates), supplementing with CO2 is NOT optional. With 4.5 watts per gallon and a nutrient-rich water stream, I would start with a minimum of three soda bottles of DIY CO2. Maybe more. Alternatively, I would get a signed and witnessed agreement from your LFS to clean your tank out for you after two months. Tee hee. Regarding the variable lighting schedule, I would recommend against that, too. The goal you are shooting for is to achieve a stable, desirable environment in your tank. The more factors you have to adjust, the harder that will be. I'd recommend a constant equatorial eleven hour day (where the first and last half hour of each day, the sun strikes the water at such an extreme angle that very little light penetrates more than a few inches into the water). kush "You can't have everything - where would you put it?" |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
I have three bottles on my 75 gallon.
One bottle has airline tubing leading from the soda bottle to just inside the filter intake. Using this method, 100% of the CO2 is absorbed (resorbed?) by the time it comes out the filter outflow. I have had two bottles hooked up to my canister filter before and had just a few bubbles come all the way through - usually they'll build up inside and come out in a sudden rush just when you least expect it. At any rate, I just use one bottle there now. Depending on your filter model you might get a little rattling noise, too. The other two bottles I have leading into the bottom of UGF risers. The bubbles rise up the tubes and get smashed by the impeller on powerheads which results in very good, although not quite perfect, absorption. I've never tried the airstone method myself. I understand you need to keep an eye on the stone to see if it's getting gunked up. Maybe someone who knows better can comment? Note: before you do anything with the pH, wait a couple days after you set up your CO2 and test again. The CO2 will lower your pH. kush "You can't have everything - where would you put it?" SlimFlem wrote in message om... Thanks for all the advice and words of wisdom guys. I will take your advice and use it. Kush, what is the best way for me to "inject" the DIY CO2 bottles into my water? Should I use a simple airstone or run a airtube into my filter intake or what?...or maybe a hard tube suctioned to the inside glass that bubbles up??? What have you done that works good? Thanks. "kush" wrote in message ... SlimFlem wrote ... The statement about the plants is that the 6.5 PH will allow the plants to synthisize elements/minerals/etc. better than at 7.5. How true this is, I'm not really sure. Mmm, there is something about trace elements precipitating out, which I think is related to total hardness, which is related to pH, but I'm not clear on the chemistry myself. Any water chemistry geeks tuned into this thread? ... using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus Buffer. These do contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad thing? This is a really, really bad thing for two reasons. First, you are providing more phosphate than your plants can readily use, thereby encouraging the proliferation of algae. Second, these products do not persist in the aquarium - because your plants and algae are using them, and you're dumping them when you perform water changes - which means you will be perpetually adjusting your water chemistry and struggling to achieve and maintain a desirable equilibrium. ... It sounds like you guys are thinking I am going to have an algea breakout from these new lights. Yes, we are; from the lights, the phosphates, and the lack of sufficient CO2 (see below). The LFS guys did say initally there might be a slight increase in water algea, but it would go away after a few days since the plants will be robbing it of nutrients. This COULD be true, provided the plants have everything they need to sustain vigorous growth in the correct balance. Biologic growth is limited by whatever factor is in least supply. If you are providing ample light for photosynthesis and abundant nutrients but the plants lack sufficient CO2, they will not repeat not grow. At the light levels you are proposing (even leaving aside the issue of the phosphates), supplementing with CO2 is NOT optional. With 4.5 watts per gallon and a nutrient-rich water stream, I would start with a minimum of three soda bottles of DIY CO2. Maybe more. Alternatively, I would get a signed and witnessed agreement from your LFS to clean your tank out for you after two months. Tee hee. Regarding the variable lighting schedule, I would recommend against that, too. The goal you are shooting for is to achieve a stable, desirable environment in your tank. The more factors you have to adjust, the harder that will be. I'd recommend a constant equatorial eleven hour day (where the first and last half hour of each day, the sun strikes the water at such an extreme angle that very little light penetrates more than a few inches into the water). kush "You can't have everything - where would you put it?" |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
I have bad luck with vals, so I'm not going to try to pass myself off as an
authority. I always thought it was the light... hmmf. Certainly, 130 watts over a 75 gallon is plenty for the sags, although they will be taller and not grow as densely as they would with more light. With my Custom Sealife 2x65W light strip, over a 75 gallon tank, I had Vals -- jungle, corkscrew, marble, Italian, crystal -- coming out of my ears. And the dwarf Sag was as short and bushy as I've ever seen it. Neither of those plants improved when I added more light. Didn't hurt 'em, but it didn't help, either. The CS light strip has a very good reflector, though; perhaps that was the difference? Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
The LFS (The Fish Store & More in Atlanta) said with this new light, I
should start by having only 8 hours of light per day and gradually increasing it to no more than 12. I see no point in doing this. Your lights are bright, but not *that* bright. Again, the LFS said CO2 injection is not *really* required and all it is said to be just because of high lighting levels. CO2 *is* required with high light levels. Otherwise, you will constantly be battling algae, and there will be undesirable daily pH swings. See my posts in the "75 or 90 for planted?" thread. Several of the guys there said they have never used CO2 with high light levels and have always had great results. I'd be curious to see what they consider high light. In general, CO2 is not necessary with less than 3 wpg (though it can help). Over 3 wpg, though, and CO2 is required, not optional. Concerning the PH, again the LFS said the Angels and Loaches would enjoy the 6.5 more than 7.5. I would not adjust the pH just for plants or fish. The vast majority of them will be fine with any reasonable pH. As long as you're not trying to breed cardinal tetras or something, leave the pH alone. The way I am doing this is by using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus Buffer. These do contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad thing? It will be, without CO2. If you want to lower your pH, adding CO2 is a much better, and easier, way. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
I have a 110 gallon tank with a 110 Watt compact fluorescent. I don't have
CO2, but I do use Fluorish Excel when I remember... :) Most of my plants are doing great, including several so-called high-light plants like swords and crypts. I have to prune weekly my cabomba, hygrophilia, and myriophyllum. It's working for me. You have 1 wpg. He's talking about a tank that will have almost 4 wpg. You don't need CO2. He does! And there is something to be said for tanks with moderate light levels. Especially for beginners. I did it that way, and I'm glad I did. Gave me a chance to learn to walk before trying to run. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Another thing about this new light (Coral Life 4 x 65), it only casts
a lot of light to the back of the tank while the front gets less than it used to. Yes, that's the problem with power compact flourescents -- the "compact" part. g That's why I ended up getting another light strip. It wasn't that my tank didn't have enough light; it was. Everything was growing great, with just one 2x65w strip. But with only one PCF light strip, I had to constantly move the strip around, or the plants would lean noticeably toward the light. I got the second light strip so I didn't have to worry about that any more. And the plants promptly started growing so fast that my Carbo-Plus couldn't keep up, and I had to get compressed CO2. I would say the light from this fixture is much more "focused" than regular tubes. Would you agree with this? Definitely. If I had to do it over again, I think I'd just get a 4' shop light or two. It would have been a heck of a lot cheaper. And you'd have a lot more control over the lighting. Leigh, looking at your web site and reading you tank specs, it sounds like you have 2 CF fixtures with 2 bulbs each. Is that correct. Yes. In back is a Custom Sealife 2x65w strip, and in front is an All-Glass 2x55w. Your tank looks so bright! Mine is bright, just not like yours is bright. That's odd. I would expect your light fixture to be extremely bright, especially when it's new. Maybe the Coralife has a bad reflector...but it surely can't be worse than the All-Glass one. As others have noted, All-Glass' reflectors are terrible. It's probably just that I have one of my light strips flush with the front of the tank, so it's very bright in front. (The low plants -- glosso, lilaeopsis, etc., are there, so I wanted light right over them.) If I take this CF light back and get two fixtures with 2 tubes each, I believe that would distribute the light better. What do you think? It probably would. OTOH, it does mean I have to pick up the front light strip and put it on top of the rear one every time I open the tank to feed the fish. FWIW, the Custom Sealife PCF light strips have much better reflectors than the All-Glass. If you get Custom Sealife, get the Britelite, not the Smartlite. But AH Supply or a big ol' shop light from Home Depot would be a lot cheaper. Also, how many of you use the "standard" glass tops like from All-Glass? That's what I use. It's inexpensive, easy, and sturdy. The cat can jump on the top the tank without any fear he'll fall in. You just have to remember to wipe the glass every once in awhile, to keep dust, hard water deposits, etc., from blocking the light. (I use a solution of vinegar and water.) BTW...with this much light in your tank, you need more than just Sag and Val in your tank. You must have enough fast-growing plants to out-compete the algae. You should plant 80% of the tank or more, and, at least at first, most of the plants should be fast-growing stem plants. Hygrophila, Cabomba, Limnophila, Rotala, etc. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Thanks for all the words of advice! I do have more plants than just Val and
Sag, I just failed to mention them. Here is what I have: A handful of Val and a handful of Sag 3 Amazon Swords (getting large, but not huge yet) 1 Melon Sword that has not grown much since I got it 6 months ago 1 Java Fern that is doing really good attached to some wood 3 "Onion" bulbs that are doing great, lapping on the top 3 Annubias that have grown fairly well but have the algea problem on the leaves (see first post) 2 small bunches of Ludwiga, I think...can't remember. I had many more plants like dwarf swords, some banana plants, some crypts but they all slowly died. Now I know it was due to low light levels. I really want to carpet the front of my tank with something but never had much luck in the past. I will start looking into a compressed CO2 setup. Thanks, Jesse "LeighMo" wrote in message ... Another thing about this new light (Coral Life 4 x 65), it only casts a lot of light to the back of the tank while the front gets less than it used to. Yes, that's the problem with power compact flourescents -- the "compact" part. g That's why I ended up getting another light strip. It wasn't that my tank didn't have enough light; it was. Everything was growing great, with just one 2x65w strip. But with only one PCF light strip, I had to constantly move the strip around, or the plants would lean noticeably toward the light. I got the second light strip so I didn't have to worry about that any more. And the plants promptly started growing so fast that my Carbo-Plus couldn't keep up, and I had to get compressed CO2. I would say the light from this fixture is much more "focused" than regular tubes. Would you agree with this? Definitely. If I had to do it over again, I think I'd just get a 4' shop light or two. It would have been a heck of a lot cheaper. And you'd have a lot more control over the lighting. Leigh, looking at your web site and reading you tank specs, it sounds like you have 2 CF fixtures with 2 bulbs each. Is that correct. Yes. In back is a Custom Sealife 2x65w strip, and in front is an All-Glass 2x55w. Your tank looks so bright! Mine is bright, just not like yours is bright. That's odd. I would expect your light fixture to be extremely bright, especially when it's new. Maybe the Coralife has a bad reflector...but it surely can't be worse than the All-Glass one. As others have noted, All-Glass' reflectors are terrible. It's probably just that I have one of my light strips flush with the front of the tank, so it's very bright in front. (The low plants -- glosso, lilaeopsis, etc., are there, so I wanted light right over them.) If I take this CF light back and get two fixtures with 2 tubes each, I believe that would distribute the light better. What do you think? It probably would. OTOH, it does mean I have to pick up the front light strip and put it on top of the rear one every time I open the tank to feed the fish. FWIW, the Custom Sealife PCF light strips have much better reflectors than the All-Glass. If you get Custom Sealife, get the Britelite, not the Smartlite. But AH Supply or a big ol' shop light from Home Depot would be a lot cheaper. Also, how many of you use the "standard" glass tops like from All-Glass? That's what I use. It's inexpensive, easy, and sturdy. The cat can jump on the top the tank without any fear he'll fall in. You just have to remember to wipe the glass every once in awhile, to keep dust, hard water deposits, etc., from blocking the light. (I use a solution of vinegar and water.) BTW...with this much light in your tank, you need more than just Sag and Val in your tank. You must have enough fast-growing plants to out-compete the algae. You should plant 80% of the tank or more, and, at least at first, most of the plants should be fast-growing stem plants. Hygrophila, Cabomba, Limnophila, Rotala, etc. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
Sagittaria & Vallisneria
I had many more plants like dwarf swords, some banana plants, some crypts
but they all slowly died. Now I know it was due to low light levels. I really want to carpet the front of my tank with something but never had much luck in the past. Well, with as much light as you have now and CO2, you should be able to grow a nice carpet! However, you really should get some fast growing plants. Stem plants. The plants you have now are almost all low-light plants (not surprisingly). Low-light plants tend to be slow growers. They don't suck up nutrients fast enough to keep algae at bay. And it's easier to prevent algae than to get rid of it once you have it.... Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
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