Hey everyone,
I'm a total newbie, but I've purchased 2 books about grass/lawn care
and one of them was Scotts "Lawns", a guide to a "beautiful lawn".
It's a great book and I highly recommend it, especially for greenhorns
like myself.

In December 2005, I purchased a home in San Antonio, Texas. During the
Spring, we had a severe drought condition and, being new to this whole
lawn thing, I neglected and did not take care of the grass. I've
attached some pictures of my lawn in hopes that it will help provide
some clues as to what is the best way for me to tackle this problem
and how I can bring it back and have the "toe-ticklinest turf in
town!"

Pics: http://www.ogmda.com/temp/lawn

My grass type: St. Augustine
Soil Test Results: Should be received this week! I am waiting for this
before I make a move on feeding the lawn

Question: With my lawn condition, should I just do some lawn patching
or do I need to renovate the lawn by killing the whole thing and then
starting over? What would you do?

What's the fastest way to get this lawn back in top shape?

Thanks for any advice!!
P.S I had Scotts do a free lawn analysis and they gave me the
following info: Turf density: Thin, Moderate shade, Aeration needed/
compacted soil, Clay loam, good mowing, drought stress, weeds: clover,
dandelion, dollarweed, oxalis, crabgrass, foxtail, goose grass, chinch
bugs(?)

"skunker" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hey everyone,
I'm a total newbie, but I've purchased 2 books about grass/lawn care
and one of them was Scotts "Lawns", a guide to a "beautiful lawn".
It's a great book and I highly recommend it, especially for greenhorns
like myself.

In December 2005, I purchased a home in San Antonio, Texas. During the
Spring, we had a severe drought condition and, being new to this whole
lawn thing, I neglected and did not take care of the grass. I've
attached some pictures of my lawn in hopes that it will help provide
some clues as to what is the best way for me to tackle this problem
and how I can bring it back and have the "toe-ticklinest turf in
town!"

Pics: http://www.ogmda.com/temp/lawn

My grass type: St. Augustine
Soil Test Results: Should be received this week! I am waiting for this
before I make a move on feeding the lawn

Question: With my lawn condition, should I just do some lawn patching
or do I need to renovate the lawn by killing the whole thing and then
starting over? What would you do?

What's the fastest way to get this lawn back in top shape?

Thanks for any advice!!
P.S I had Scotts do a free lawn analysis and they gave me the
following info: Turf density: Thin, Moderate shade, Aeration needed/
compacted soil, Clay loam, good mowing, drought stress, weeds: clover,
dandelion, dollarweed, oxalis, crabgrass, foxtail, goose grass, chinch
bugs(?)


Too busy here to respond in detail at the moment, but:

I'm not a big fan of dogs, but you apparently are. Keep in mind that the
Scott's franchises are in business to sell chemicals, none of which can be
legally tested for safety in humans. I have no idea if they've ever used
dogs as test subjects. Probably not.

I see you have some vegetables in the raised bed thing. Most lawn chemical
companies hire high school children to apply chemicals. They lie to these
employees, telling them that the stuff they're spraying is safe around food
crops. My one experience in this area involved walking out of my house about
30 seconds before a lawn spray child was about to contaminate MY vegetable
garden with a chemical which he claimed was safe, but was NOT legal to use
anywhere near food crops.

Everything else they told you is probably true (soil quality, etc), but you
can get that information in other ways. I would recommend that you contact
the cooperative extension service and get some advice from them. It's free,
and they don't sell anything. It's a service of your state university. It
exists to advise farmers and homeowners on agricultural issues. Go to google
and search using the words "cooperative extension texas". You'll find it.

The extension services I am aware of, especially Penn State are product
pushers.


Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"skunker" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hey everyone,
I'm a total newbie, but I've purchased 2 books about grass/lawn care
and one of them was Scotts "Lawns", a guide to a "beautiful lawn".
It's a great book and I highly recommend it, especially for greenhorns
like myself.

In December 2005, I purchased a home in San Antonio, Texas. During the
Spring, we had a severe drought condition and, being new to this whole
lawn thing, I neglected and did not take care of the grass. I've
attached some pictures of my lawn in hopes that it will help provide
some clues as to what is the best way for me to tackle this problem
and how I can bring it back and have the "toe-ticklinest turf in
town!"

Pics: http://www.ogmda.com/temp/lawn

My grass type: St. Augustine
Soil Test Results: Should be received this week! I am waiting for this
before I make a move on feeding the lawn

Question: With my lawn condition, should I just do some lawn patching
or do I need to renovate the lawn by killing the whole thing and then
starting over? What would you do?

What's the fastest way to get this lawn back in top shape?

Thanks for any advice!!
P.S I had Scotts do a free lawn analysis and they gave me the
following info: Turf density: Thin, Moderate shade, Aeration needed/
compacted soil, Clay loam, good mowing, drought stress, weeds: clover,
dandelion, dollarweed, oxalis, crabgrass, foxtail, goose grass, chinch
bugs(?)


Too busy here to respond in detail at the moment, but:

I'm not a big fan of dogs, but you apparently are. Keep in mind that the
Scott's franchises are in business to sell chemicals, none of which can be
legally tested for safety in humans. I have no idea if they've ever used
dogs as test subjects. Probably not.

I see you have some vegetables in the raised bed thing. Most lawn chemical
companies hire high school children to apply chemicals. They lie to these
employees, telling them that the stuff they're spraying is safe around
food crops. My one experience in this area involved walking out of my
house about 30 seconds before a lawn spray child was about to contaminate
MY vegetable garden with a chemical which he claimed was safe, but was NOT
legal to use anywhere near food crops.

Everything else they told you is probably true (soil quality, etc), but
you can get that information in other ways. I would recommend that you
contact the cooperative extension service and get some advice from them.
It's free, and they don't sell anything. It's a service of your state
university. It exists to advise farmers and homeowners on agricultural
issues. Go to google and search using the words "cooperative extension
texas". You'll find it.

"symplastless" wrote in message
...
The extension services I am aware of, especially Penn State are product
pushers.

Some extension services use volunteers, so it's likely you're hearing their
personal opinions. Since we have two very accurate surveys proving that a
little over 50% of the population is pathetically stupid, you have to take
everything you hear with a grain of salt.

The best thing for gardeners to do is hire private detectives to help them
find their local library. Then, read some books, and take the least
poisonous or invasive approach to solving problems.

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
Too busy here to respond in detail at the moment, but:

But you will anyway, Doug Kanter.

I'm not a big fan of dogs, but you apparently are

Many people enjoy a dogs company Doug, you advocate killing your neighbors
dog if you can catch him or poison him with a bowl of antifreeze.

Scott's franchises are in business to sell chemicals, none of which can be
legally tested for safety in humans. I have no idea if they've ever used
dogs as test subjects. Probably not.

You hate dogs, you talk about leaving bowls of anti freeze out for them.

Most lawn chemical companies hire high school children to apply
chemicals.
Really? High school children?

I'm sure you have some data to back up your claim of children spraying
control product on lawns in the USA, right?

They hire grocery stock boys at that age first, ask your dad and your son,
then yourself.

They lie to these
employees, telling them that the stuff they're spraying is safe around
food
Most real applicators are pesticide certified by the state they're doing
business in. You can't lie to them.

Now go get your shine-box, stockboy Doug Kanter aka JoeSpareBedroom.

"Larry" wrote in message
...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
Too busy here to respond in detail at the moment, but:

But you will anyway, Doug Kanter.

I'm not a big fan of dogs, but you apparently are

Many people enjoy a dogs company Doug, you advocate killing your
neighbors dog if you can catch him or poison him with a bowl of
antifreeze.

Scott's franchises are in business to sell chemicals, none of which can be
legally tested for safety in humans. I have no idea if they've ever used
dogs as test subjects. Probably not.

You hate dogs, you talk about leaving bowls of anti freeze out for them.

Most lawn chemical companies hire high school children to apply
chemicals.
Really? High school children?

I'm sure you have some data to back up your claim of children spraying
control product on lawns in the USA, right?

They hire grocery stock boys at that age first, ask your dad and your son,
then yourself.

They lie to these
employees, telling them that the stuff they're spraying is safe around
food
Most real applicators are pesticide certified by the state they're doing
business in. You can't lie to them.

Now go get your shine-box, stockboy Doug Kanter aka JoeSpareBedroom.


High school children. Exactly what I said. I've seen it. Prove me wrong.
Right the **** now.

Prove me wrong.

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 02:27:42 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"

wrote:

"Larry" wrote in message
...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
Too busy here to respond in detail at the moment, but:

But you will anyway, Doug Kanter.

I'm not a big fan of dogs, but you apparently are

Many people enjoy a dogs company Doug, you advocate killing your
neighbors dog if you can catch him or poison him with a bowl of
antifreeze.

Scott's franchises are in business to sell chemicals, none of which can
be
legally tested for safety in humans. I have no idea if they've ever
used
dogs as test subjects. Probably not.

You hate dogs, you talk about leaving bowls of anti freeze out for them.

Most lawn chemical companies hire high school children to apply
chemicals.
Really? High school children?

I'm sure you have some data to back up your claim of children spraying
control product on lawns in the USA, right?

They hire grocery stock boys at that age first, ask your dad and your
son,
then yourself.

They lie to these
employees, telling them that the stuff they're spraying is safe around
food
Most real applicators are pesticide certified by the state they're doing
business in. You can't lie to them.

Now go get your shine-box, stockboy Doug Kanter aka JoeSpareBedroom.


High school children. Exactly what I said. I've seen it. Prove me wrong.
Right the **** now.

Prove me wrong.


In Connecticut, you can't be employed to apply pesticides or herbicides
under
the age of 18. I realize YOU were probably much older than that when and
if you
finished High School, but most kids are about 17 when they graduate.

CWM

Apparently, things are different in NY.

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 02:27:42 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"

wrote:

"Larry" wrote in message
...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
Too busy here to respond in detail at the moment, but:

But you will anyway, Doug Kanter.

I'm not a big fan of dogs, but you apparently are

Many people enjoy a dogs company Doug, you advocate killing your
neighbors dog if you can catch him or poison him with a bowl of
antifreeze.

Scott's franchises are in business to sell chemicals, none of which can
be
legally tested for safety in humans. I have no idea if they've ever
used
dogs as test subjects. Probably not.

You hate dogs, you talk about leaving bowls of anti freeze out for
them.

Most lawn chemical companies hire high school children to apply
chemicals.
Really? High school children?

I'm sure you have some data to back up your claim of children spraying
control product on lawns in the USA, right?

They hire grocery stock boys at that age first, ask your dad and your
son,
then yourself.

They lie to these
employees, telling them that the stuff they're spraying is safe around
food
Most real applicators are pesticide certified by the state they're
doing
business in. You can't lie to them.

Now go get your shine-box, stockboy Doug Kanter aka JoeSpareBedroom.


High school children. Exactly what I said. I've seen it. Prove me wrong.
Right the **** now.

Prove me wrong.


In Connecticut, you can't be employed to apply pesticides or herbicides
under
the age of 18. I realize YOU were probably much older than that when and
if you
finished High School, but most kids are about 17 when they graduate.

CWM

Apparently, things are different in NY.

Apparently you don't know your ass from a garden weasel, Doug.

Charlie Morgan wrote:




In Connecticut, you can't be employed to apply pesticides or herbicides under
the age of 18. I realize YOU were probably much older than that when and if you
finished High School, but most kids are about 17 when they graduate.

CWM

I would guess that would be the same in most states, but they probably
do allow under aged "helpers", not licensed to apply the pesticides, but
there to help keep the hoses untangled, get tools when needed, etc.
And I can see where Billy Bob SR. of BB's Bug Control would let Billy
Bob Jr actually do the application especially if he had been helping
Pops since he was 12.

Lar

"Lar" wrote in message
. ..
Charlie Morgan wrote:




In Connecticut, you can't be employed to apply pesticides or herbicides
under
the age of 18. I realize YOU were probably much older than that when and
if you
finished High School, but most kids are about 17 when they graduate.

CWM

I would guess that would be the same in most states, but they probably do
allow under aged "helpers", not licensed to apply the pesticides, but
there to help keep the hoses untangled, get tools when needed, etc. And I
can see where Billy Bob SR. of BB's Bug Control would let Billy Bob Jr
actually do the application especially if he had been helping Pops since
he was 12.

Lar


Exactly. And, since people that young have ZERO historical perspective, with
regard to chemicals, they'll believe anything they're told.

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 22:18:36 -0400, "Larry" wrote:


Most lawn chemical companies hire high school children to apply
chemicals.
Really? High school children?

I heard on the news tonight that one drugstore chain hires high school
children as assistants to dispense prescription drugs.

They showed one person who was crippled and couldn't talk and had a
contorted face after taking the wrong prescription. The drugstore
said that the teenager put in pills with ten times as much dosage, and
the pharmacist, who reviewed*** what the kid had done, missed the
mistake.

***They said he reviewed it anyhow.

They had another example also, who maybe died.

The drugstore said that there were only a couple cases out of millions
of prescriptions properly filled. But who knows how many mistakes
there really were, including those didn't cure like they should have,
but didn't have noticeable side effects. Etc.

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 23:11:30 -0400, mm
wrote:


Most lawn chemical companies hire high school children to apply
chemicals.
Really? High school children?

I heard on the news tonight that one drugstore chain hires high school
children as assistants to dispense prescription drugs.

One more thing, the girl they interviewed was 16 years old.

They showed one person who was crippled and couldn't talk and had a
contorted face after taking the wrong prescription. The drugstore
said that the teenager put in pills with ten times as much dosage, and
the pharmacist, who reviewed*** what the kid had done, missed the
mistake.

***They said he reviewed it anyhow.

Scott's is a pesticide and synthetic fertilizer company so I would be
very weary of any advice they give to you. Having said that, you need
to water if you want a lawn, period. Each year I remove more and more
turf and replace it with perennial and annual plants which are native
or adapted to my area in Austin, TX.

You no longer have what I'd call a "lawn." If you want a "lawn" you
will have to remove all the turf and lay new sod and you must water it
every day, several times a day till it is established. After that,
St. Augustine can work well with one inch of water per week.

Everyone in Texas eventually gets chinch bugs, which can be regulated
using beneficial nematodes, but you must water to keep those alive.
Nematodes are un-segmented organisms which are microscopic and you can
get much more information about that online.

If it were my home, I'd remove most of that lawn and put in beds and
plant ground cover or have some interesting islands of companion
plants of differing color.


On 27 Mar 2007 06:56:26 -0700, "skunker" wrote:

Hey everyone,
I'm a total newbie, but I've purchased 2 books about grass/lawn care
and one of them was Scotts "Lawns", a guide to a "beautiful lawn".
It's a great book and I highly recommend it, especially for greenhorns
like myself.

In December 2005, I purchased a home in San Antonio, Texas. During the
Spring, we had a severe drought condition and, being new to this whole
lawn thing, I neglected and did not take care of the grass. I've
attached some pictures of my lawn in hopes that it will help provide
some clues as to what is the best way for me to tackle this problem
and how I can bring it back and have the "toe-ticklinest turf in
town!"

Pics: http://www.ogmda.com/temp/lawn

My grass type: St. Augustine
Soil Test Results: Should be received this week! I am waiting for this
before I make a move on feeding the lawn

Question: With my lawn condition, should I just do some lawn patching
or do I need to renovate the lawn by killing the whole thing and then
starting over? What would you do?

What's the fastest way to get this lawn back in top shape?

Thanks for any advice!!
P.S I had Scotts do a free lawn analysis and they gave me the
following info: Turf density: Thin, Moderate shade, Aeration needed/
compacted soil, Clay loam, good mowing, drought stress, weeds: clover,
dandelion, dollarweed, oxalis, crabgrass, foxtail, goose grass, chinch
bugs(?)

"skunker" wrote in message
Question: With my lawn condition, should I just do some lawn patching
or do I need to renovate the lawn by killing the whole thing and then
starting over? What would you do?

What's the fastest way to get this lawn back in top shape?



I didn't see an abundance of St. Augustine there- 90% of what you have are
weeds.

IMO the fastest way to get it into top shape would be to kill/remove all the
weeds and resod with a new and improved St. Augustine variety. Then maintain
it with good food and proper watering- not a buttload of chemical
applications from a service needing to justify monthly charges.

You could of course use selective herbicides to kill the weeds and just
nurture along what little St. Augustine you have, but that is in no way fast
and you'll have lots of mud in the interim. St. Augustine is fast, but I
still see it taking at least two years if you do it this way.


--
Toni
South Florida USA
USDA Zone 10
http://www.cearbhaill.com

On Mar 27, 12:57 pm, "Buderschnookie" wrote:
"skunker" wrote in message
Question: With my lawn condition, should I just do some lawn patching
or do I need to renovate the lawn by killing the whole thing and then
starting over? What would you do?

What's the fastest way to get this lawn back in top shape?

I didn't see an abundance of St. Augustine there- 90% of what you have are
weeds.

IMO the fastest way to get it into top shape would be to kill/remove all the
weeds and resod with a new and improved St. Augustine variety. Then maintain
it with good food and proper watering- not a buttload of chemical
applications from a service needing to justify monthly charges.

You could of course use selective herbicides to kill the weeds and just
nurture along what little St. Augustine you have, but that is in no way fast
and you'll have lots of mud in the interim. St. Augustine is fast, but I
still see it taking at least two years if you do it this way.

--
Toni
South Florida USA
USDA Zone 10http://www.cearbhaill.com

Thanks guys,
So is it faster if I just killed it and started over with new sod?
Can it be done in one year? I may sell in that timeframe, not sure yet.