Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

In article ,
Omelet wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

well.... we have one sports car, one gas efficient mazda and a trailer for
when we
need to haul stuff instead of an SUV or van. we moved into the city and DH
is now 1
mile from work, I am 5 miles. no more big commutes. we shop locally and I
mostly
buy online so there arent a lot of shopping trips. we dont do "car"
vacations and
long trips. our gasoline needs have really dropped. Ingrid

I can't move closer to work. It's not practical so I use close to 2
gallons per day during my commute.

But I make sure that I do most of my shopping on the way home from work
as a slightly different route will pass me thru town on the way home,
and shopping trips to Austin are severely limited.

I'm on vacation this week and won't be going anywhere. I have too much
to do here anyway. ;-)

I also shop by phone somewhat before going out so I can make just one
trip to one store.

I don't like to shop on line as credit card interest rates are too high
so I limit their use to what I can pay off each month.

Get a debit card. No interest. We got one just for shopping online and
on ebay. (We don't believe in credit cards.)

Jan

--
Bedouin proverb: If you have no troubles, buy a goat.

Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

In article ,
Jan Flora wrote:

I don't like to shop on line as credit card interest rates are too high
so I limit their use to what I can pay off each month.

Get a debit card. No interest. We got one just for shopping online and
on ebay. (We don't believe in credit cards.)

Jan

I do have a debit card.

It's not recommended that a debit card be used for on line purchases as
there is no way to recover the funds if there is a problem. Once the
money is gone, it's gone.

Credit card purchases have their own built in warantee.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

Omelet expounded:


I do have a debit card.

It's not recommended that a debit card be used for on line purchases as
there is no way to recover the funds if there is a problem. Once the
money is gone, it's gone.

Credit card purchases have their own built in warantee.

That depends. My debit card is a MasterCard, and it has all the
protection of a credit card. And I've had to use that protection in
the past, so I know it works.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

In article ,
Ann wrote:

Omelet expounded:


I do have a debit card.

It's not recommended that a debit card be used for on line purchases as
there is no way to recover the funds if there is a problem. Once the
money is gone, it's gone.

Credit card purchases have their own built in warantee.

That depends. My debit card is a MasterCard, and it has all the
protection of a credit card. And I've had to use that protection in
the past, so I know it works.

Ok, that's good info, thanks!
My debit card is a visa.

I'll have to talk to my bank. I am new to debit cards.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

"Omelet" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ann wrote:

Omelet expounded:


I do have a debit card.

It's not recommended that a debit card be used for on line purchases as
there is no way to recover the funds if there is a problem. Once the
money is gone, it's gone.

Credit card purchases have their own built in warantee.

That depends. My debit card is a MasterCard, and it has all the
protection of a credit card. And I've had to use that protection in
the past, so I know it works.

Ok, that's good info, thanks!
My debit card is a visa.

I'll have to talk to my bank. I am new to debit cards.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack
Nicholson

Mine is has the visa logo also. Any debit cards with a major credit card
logo have the same perks as a credit without all the downfalls. or that's
the way it works around here anyway. definitely check with your bank - but
if you have the logo - you should be fine.

rae

Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

In article ,
"Rachael Simpson" wrote:

Mine is has the visa logo also. Any debit cards with a major credit card
logo have the same perks as a credit without all the downfalls. or that's
the way it works around here anyway. definitely check with your bank - but
if you have the logo - you should be fine.

rae

Thanks again. :-)

I have managed to pay off all of my credit card debt and am trying to
totally avoid using them at all. Interest rates are usery!
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

Before I retired I was a lawyer, and did some research concerning this.

The federal law that provides the protection for credit cards covered
only credit cards.

I think the very similar protections given with debit cards, even those
bearing a credit card logo, are given by the issuing institution, not by
the law.

I believe that with using the credit card, the credit card companies
hold a certain amount that has been charged against the merchant, rather
than paying everything to the merchant right away, so it is fairly easy
for the credit card company to return your money from this withholding,
when a charge is shown to be invalid.

I don't know what the current procedure is with debit cards, but if
recovery is under the control of the issuing bank, they may be more
reluctant to make a final determination in your favor, if they don't
have that cushion of money due the merchant, and they may not have the
massive staff that the credit card companies maintain to deal with such
situations.

I don't personally know anyone who has not gotten their money back from
a debit card transaction, who deserved it. But at the same time, most
of the people I know don't use a debit card (other than the ATM component).

As long as one can fully pay off what one charges on the credit card, I
see no advantage to the debit card. In fact, since the debit card
releases your money immediately, while the credit card usually has a
rather substantial period before your payment is due, you can earn a
little interest on your money by using the credit card (hardly enough to
get rich on, though).

So I remain a little leery of using a debit card. particularly in a
transaction that is not face to face. Perhaps eventually I will grow
more accepting. Right now, I see no advantage to the debit card.

Ann wrote:
Omelet expounded:

I do have a debit card.

It's not recommended that a debit card be used for on line purchases as
there is no way to recover the funds if there is a problem. Once the
money is gone, it's gone.

Credit card purchases have their own built in warantee.

That depends. My debit card is a MasterCard, and it has all the
protection of a credit card. And I've had to use that protection in
the past, so I know it works.

Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

"Not@home" expounded:

So I remain a little leery of using a debit card. particularly in a
transaction that is not face to face. Perhaps eventually I will grow
more accepting. Right now, I see no advantage to the debit card.

I will check with my bank tomorrow when they're open and post here
what they say.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

Ann expounded:

"Not@home" expounded:

So I remain a little leery of using a debit card. particularly in a
transaction that is not face to face. Perhaps eventually I will grow
more accepting. Right now, I see no advantage to the debit card.

I will check with my bank tomorrow when they're open and post here
what they say.

Ok, I checked with my bank (actually a federal credit union). They
use the dispute reconciliation system set up by MasterCard, which is
the credit card company that issues the debit cards. The credit union
is responsible monetarily for reimbursing, etc. but MC 'polices' the
process, so the same protection is extended to the debit card holder
as a credit card holder. At least that is how it was explained to me.
I don't really care who backs it up, as long as it is backed up - and
it has been for me.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 13:58:37 -0700, wrote:

the problem is, all carbon based fuels release CO2 when burned.

what we need is to break the hydrogen oxygen bond in water and then burn
the hydrogen
back to water. plants do this, they use solar energy to knock the
hydrogen off the
water, use the energy of the electrons to form a covalent bond (organic)
that stores
the energy (using CO2). That is really clean energy.

Ingrid


That sounds nice but it costs significantly more to extract hydrogen from
water then to produce it any other way. The most economical way at present
to produce hydrogen on a massive scale is steam reforming of the methane
in natural gas or coal gas in which the gas is combined with superheated
steam, releasing hydrogen and carbon dioxide. CH4+2H2O=4H2+CO2 if I got my
chemistry right. This is the Bush hydrogen initiative. No improvement in
carbon dioxide emissions, but it would be a boon for the natural gas and
coal industries. And that's the real point of it.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is
to be controlled by all that the coward fears. To be led by a fool is to
be led by the opportunists who control the fool. To be led by a thief is
to offer up your most precious treasures to be stolen. To be led by a liar
is to ask to be lied to. To be led by a tyrant is to sell yourself and
those you love into slavery."
Octavia Butler

Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

plants do it very economically. we just need to figure out how to
replicate it, probably using variations on the organic enzymes plants
use and do it in vitro. Ingrid

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:02:40 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 13:58:37 -0700, wrote:

the problem is, all carbon based fuels release CO2 when burned.

what we need is to break the hydrogen oxygen bond in water and then burn
the hydrogen
back to water. plants do this, they use solar energy to knock the
hydrogen off the
water, use the energy of the electrons to form a covalent bond (organic)
that stores
the energy (using CO2). That is really clean energy.

Ingrid


That sounds nice but it costs significantly more to extract hydrogen from
water then to produce it any other way. The most economical way at present
to produce hydrogen on a massive scale is steam reforming of the methane
in natural gas or coal gas in which the gas is combined with superheated
steam, releasing hydrogen and carbon dioxide. CH4+2H2O=4H2+CO2 if I got my
chemistry right. This is the Bush hydrogen initiative. No improvement in
carbon dioxide emissions, but it would be a boon for the natural gas and
coal industries. And that's the real point of it.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is
to be controlled by all that the coward fears. To be led by a fool is to
be led by the opportunists who control the fool. To be led by a thief is
to offer up your most precious treasures to be stolen. To be led by a liar
is to ask to be lied to. To be led by a tyrant is to sell yourself and
those you love into slavery."
Octavia Butler

Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

In article ,
wrote:

plants do it very economically. we just need to figure out how to
replicate it, probably using variations on the organic enzymes plants
use and do it in vitro. Ingrid

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:02:40 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 13:58:37 -0700, wrote:

the problem is, all carbon based fuels release CO2 when burned.

what we need is to break the hydrogen oxygen bond in water and then burn
the hydrogen
back to water. plants do this, they use solar energy to knock the
hydrogen off the
water, use the energy of the electrons to form a covalent bond (organic)
that stores
the energy (using CO2). That is really clean energy.

Ingrid


That sounds nice but it costs significantly more to extract hydrogen from
water then to produce it any other way. The most economical way at present
to produce hydrogen on a massive scale is steam reforming of the methane
in natural gas or coal gas in which the gas is combined with superheated
steam, releasing hydrogen and carbon dioxide. CH4+2H2O=4H2+CO2 if I got my
chemistry right. This is the Bush hydrogen initiative. No improvement in
carbon dioxide emissions, but it would be a boon for the natural gas and
coal industries. And that's the real point of it.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is
to be controlled by all that the coward fears. To be led by a fool is to
be led by the opportunists who control the fool. To be led by a thief is
to offer up your most precious treasures to be stolen. To be led by a liar
is to ask to be lied to. To be led by a tyrant is to sell yourself and
those you love into slavery."
Octavia Butler

If you are planing on using the Citric Acid Cycle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid_cycle to power your car, you
can plan on zipping along at the speed of a growing plant. CO2 release
is only a problem if you add to the atmospheric load of CO2. CO2 already
exists in the atmosphere where it is part of the CO2 Cycle
http://www.google.com/search?q=CO2+c...aq=t&rls=org.m
ozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a . The Problem is in increasing
the amount of CO2 by the introduction of fossil fuels. Working within
the CO2 Cycle is a zero sum games with no CO2 increase.

H2 + O2 is a great source for energy but I don't think you want a
pressurized cylinder of it under the back seat of your car. If H2 could
be produced as needed, it may be safe (depending on the process).
Electric cars powered by central power stations across a grid would, to
me, make the most sense for daily needs. This would allow CO2 scrubbing
of smoke stacks to eliminate CO2 from being returned to the atmosphere
and allow the use of bio-mass for fuel.

Fossil fuel is the enemy.

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

not citric acid, not electron transport. use first stage of light
reaction in photosynthesis. H2O + photon -2 H+ and electrons and O

I am thinking more about make the hydrogen as you go AND have some
kind of storage for the hydrogen that is more stable, like H2CO3 =
H+ and HCO3. The actual electrons are what fuels ATP production
during the light cycle so electrons can be stored.
Ingrid

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:10:13 -0700, Billy Rose
wrote:
If you are planing on using the Citric Acid Cycle
H2 + O2 is a great source for energy but I don't think you want a
pressurized cylinder of it under the back seat of your car.

Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

In article ,
wrote:

not citric acid, not electron transport. use first stage of light
reaction in photosynthesis. H2O + photon -2 H+ and electrons and O

You mean
2 H2O + 2 NADP+ + 2 ADP + 2 Pi + light -- 2 NADPH + 2 H+ + 2 ATP + O2 ?
That is a mess of wet chemistry, you have in mind guy/girl.
Another way would be, by definition an acid releases H2 when it comes in
contact with a metal (yeah, there are a few exotics, but hyronium donors
do) but then there is the problem of all that acid sloshing around in
the vehicle. Seems to me, photovoltaic and a battery would be more
practical. Even more practical would be the electric plug in vehicle.
For the real hard core, we could go back to the Stanely Steamers. Then
Frag could just dry out some pasture pastries, toss 'em in the burner,
and sail off down the road. No fossil fuel. Might smell a little funky
though.

I think I have a recent article around here, some where, on H2 storage.
Lemme git back to ya.

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

I am thinking more about make the hydrogen as you go AND have some
kind of storage for the hydrogen that is more stable, like H2CO3 =
H+ and HCO3. The actual electrons are what fuels ATP production
during the light cycle so electrons can be stored.
Ingrid

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:10:13 -0700, Billy Rose
wrote:
If you are planing on using the Citric Acid Cycle
H2 + O2 is a great source for energy but I don't think you want a
pressurized cylinder of it under the back seat of your car.

Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative
 

electrical plugs just put off the problem. somebody somewhere gotta
burn something to make the electricity. if they are making hydrogen
from water, fine, if it is nuclear less than ideal.

platinum is typically used to catalyze the splitting of water, used
with an electrical current in an ionic but not necessarily acidic
environment. Ingrid

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:35:35 -0700, Billy Rose
wrote:
Even more practical would be the electric plug in vehicle.