TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those
countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it climate? Too
windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?

On 5/7/2008 3:53 PM, Way Back Jack wrote:
TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those
countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it climate? Too
windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?

I read somewhere (I think it might have been in Winston Churchill's "A
History of the English-Speaking Peoples") that a medieval king of
England ordered the planting of oaks so that a later generation might
have the raw materials to build war ships. However, trees take up land
that might instead be used for crops or pastures.

On my own standard tract lot, I have 14 trees. Some are trees only in
name. Three are dwarf citrus and will never be tree-like. But nine of
them are truly trees in size and shape.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening pages at http://www.rossde.com/garden/

My assumption would be the same situation as The Epic of Gilgamesh. In
that myth Gilgamesh sets out to appease the God of the Forest and
thereby gain immortality. Gilgamesh is a hero of ancient Sumeria, but
over the centuries Gilgamesh fell upon hard times. You see, Sumeria's
power was based on the manufacture of bronze, which required large
amounts of fuel. The original hardwood forests of Mesopotamia offered
unlimited fuel, and Sumeria's power was a result of harvesting that
fuel to manufacture bronze weapons and tools. But over the centuries
the trees were harvested and woodcutters had to travel farther and
farther to harvest fuel. This is known as the law of diminishing
returns. The original lesson in unsutustainable economics. The
Sumerians didn't know about ecology or economics, so an angry God was
punishing them for destroying the forest. In the end, Sumeria meets
her extinction and Gilgamesh is shown to be a mortal. The god of the
forest destroys Sumeria and to this day that region is essentially
desert. The Epic of Gilgamesh is the first documented case of a human
caused environmental disaster.

The Romans continued the tradition of unlimited military conquest to
feed their need for fuel. By that time iron was the metal of choice.
Iron required more heat than bronze, and soon the hardwood forests of
the Mediterranean were depleted. Because of their proximity to
waterways, the British Isles were targeted to supply hardwood for
metal smelting. Once the trees were harvested, sheep and goats ensured
the forest could not regrow. A large part of the poverty in Europe
through the centuries was the result of the stripping of resources by
the Romans. Most people are willig to give the Romans credit for
building good roads, but in reality those roads would not have been
built if there was not fuel to harvest and transport to the smelter.

Ironically, the United States is repeating the same pattern now with
petroleum. We have a state-sponsored military that enforces the
harvesting of a fuel and we are leaving nothing for them in return. It
seems the human race has learned very little from history, and at this
rate history will have very little good to say about the United
States.

-- Gnarlodious
http://Gnarlodious.com/

David E. Ross wrote:
On 5/7/2008 3:53 PM, Way Back Jack wrote:
TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in
those countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it
climate?
Too windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?

I read somewhere (I think it might have been in Winston Churchill's
"A
History of the English-Speaking Peoples") that a medieval king of
England ordered the planting of oaks so that a later generation
might
have the raw materials to build war ships. However, trees take up
land that might instead be used for crops or pastures.

"O bonny Portmore, I am sorry to see
Such a woeful destruction of your ornament tree
For it stood on your shore for many's the long day
Till the long boats from Antrim came to float it away.

"O bonny Portmore, you shine where you stand
And the more I think on you the more I think long
If I had you now as I had once before
All the lords in Old England would not purchase Portmore.

"All the birds in the forest they bitterly weep
Saying, "Where shall we shelter, where shall we sleep?"
For the Oak and the Ash, they are all cutten down
And the walls of bonny Portmore are all down to the ground."

"O bonny Portmore, you shine where you stand
And the more I think on you the more I think long
If I had you now as I had once before
All the Lords of Old England would not purchase Portmore."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnrNYtOsbEg

Portmore Castle was destroyed in 1716. The song dates to about 1745.

On my own standard tract lot, I have 14 trees. Some are trees only
in
name. Three are dwarf citrus and will never be tree-like. But nine
of them are truly trees in size and shape.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Way Back Jack" wrote in message
...
TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those
countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it climate? Too
windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?

A few thousand years of human habitation and their domestic animals has
greatly reduced the trees. Prior to high densities of humans much of Europe
was heavily forested as the gulf stream moderates the temperature considerably
compared to similar latitudes in Asia or America.

David

In article ,
(Way Back Jack) wrote:

TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those
countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it climate? Too
windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?

Long story short, the British built ships with which to conquer
and colonize the world.
--

Billy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

On May 8, 5:40 am, Billy wrote:
In article ,
(Way Back Jack) wrote:

TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those
countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it climate? Too
windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?

Long story short, the British built ships with which to conquer
and colonize the world.
--

Billyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.nethttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related

For some reason or other, I had been invited to a high level meeting
of a planned economy country dealing with timber products. I had had
some previous run in with Minister regarding the load of whiskey in my
office and had refused to use it. On the way in the door the Minister
asked me how I liked my whiskey.

"I'll take it neat"

For some reason I was placed at the head of the large boardroom table
with the Minister at the other. Someone next to me poured a large
measure into my glass so I quaffed it down, put my elbows on the table
in the manner of - right, now, let's get down to business. I know it
now, but did not then, that the culture was; that if the glass was
empty, it had to be refilled; but I quaffed that down as well. After
some time I realised that people had stopped talking in English and
instead used various other languages, which I didn't understand. I
started talking Gaelic, but all that could come out of my roundabout
brain was an old Irish poem 'What are we going to do when all the wood
is gone?...'

To my amazement, the Minister translated the poem into English - there
were English bankers at the meeting, and he gave the same explanation
for the removal of trees as your good self. When I looked at my glass
again, it was full to the brim. I can't explain it but it happened.

I have been experimenting with trees for fuel for about fifteen years
and, for the record; Eucl. Viminalis wins by a mile.


Donal

The countryside is created by human requirements. Factors a

Climate change over the past few thousand years - palaeo-biology indicates how trees have come and gone.
Increased need to feed the populace - an increasing world problem
Use of timber for construction and fuel - necessary for human survival


There is a mistaken belief that Britain and Ireland were coated with trees in the past. As so often, trees grow where it suits them, and where it doesn't there aren't any. Western Ireland is too wet and warm for trees to grow well. The Highlands of Scotland and the Welsh mountains were too exposed, apart from the valleys and gullies where trees were protected from harsh wind. Where there are flood plains, trees with water-resistance can survive such as willows or alders, but tend not to form large groups. In much of the English countryside, trees are found as much in hedges as in woodland.

On Wed, 07 May 2008 22:53:06 GMT, (Way Back Jack)
wrote:

TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those
countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it climate? Too
windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?

Ireland was covered in trees before the English needed timber to built
the fleet that fought the Spanish Armada.

Nik

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On Thu, 08 May 2008 18:21:09 +1200, Someone else
wrote:

Ireland was covered in trees before the English needed timber to built
the fleet that fought the Spanish Armada.

All else being equal, if they cut down every large tree in Ireland for
the task (and I doubt they'd need so many), one presumes the smaller
trees would have grown to replace them within fifty years, so
something more of an explanation would seem called for.

For example farming and firewood, especially as the population grew
into the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

J.

"Way Back Jack" wrote in message

TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those
countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it climate? Too
windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?

I've not noticed a lack of trees in most of Britain when I've been there.
The north western parts of Scotland certainly lack trees and the vegetation
of the Burren in Ireland is well known internationally (but not for it's
trees). Scotland used to be covered by the Calidonian Forest and had wolves
and beaver but I can't recall why it went belly up. Ireland suffered from
ice coverage during the Ice Ages so any trees there had to come back as
pioneer species.

Large numbers of people, 'modern farming' and trees don't go together. As
the population grew the trees would have had to go, or in some instances,
'modern farming' methods were the cause of clearance too. Ireland's
population exploded after the introduction of the potato and you can't grow
spuds in forests so even if there had been a desire to grow more trees,
there would have been a strong disincentive to do so.

On Thu, 8 May 2008 16:57:04 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:

"Way Back Jack" wrote in message

TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those
countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it climate? Too
windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?

I've not noticed a lack of trees in most of Britain when I've been there.
The north western parts of Scotland certainly lack trees and the vegetation
of the Burren in Ireland is well known internationally (but not for it's
trees). Scotland used to be covered by the Calidonian Forest and had wolves
and beaver but I can't recall why it went belly up. Ireland suffered from
ice coverage during the Ice Ages so any trees there had to come back as
pioneer species.

Large numbers of people, 'modern farming' and trees don't go together. As
the population grew the trees would have had to go, or in some instances,
'modern farming' methods were the cause of clearance too. Ireland's
population exploded after the introduction of the potato and you can't grow
spuds in forests so even if there had been a desire to grow more trees,
there would have been a strong disincentive to do so.

Ireland had extensive forest cover well prior to the arrival of
potatos in Europe...which, remember, were introduced by Sir Walter
Raleigh after he returned from the New World...so you're telling me
that in the roughly 150 years between the arrival of the potato in
western Europe, including Ireland, from South America, and the Potato
Famine of the 1840s that Ireland's population grew so much that it had
also become deforested?

Why do you neglect to mention the impact on farm ownership patterns
incurred by the Penal Laws?

http://local.law.umn.edu/irishlaw/land.html

Also you neglect to mention that the English desire to build a fleet
of warships to fight the Spanish Armada and where they obtained the
timber to do so...

You may (or may not) know a lot about Botany but you don't know much
about the natural and human history of Ireland.

Nik

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Someone else wrote:
On Thu, 8 May 2008 16:57:04 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:

"Way Back Jack" wrote in message

TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in
those countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it
climate? Too windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?

I've not noticed a lack of trees in most of Britain when I've been
there. The north western parts of Scotland certainly lack trees and
the vegetation of the Burren in Ireland is well known
internationally (but not for it's trees). Scotland used to be
covered by the Calidonian Forest and had wolves and beaver but I
can't recall why it went belly up. Ireland suffered from ice
coverage during the Ice Ages so any trees there had to come back as
pioneer species.

Large numbers of people, 'modern farming' and trees don't go
together. As the population grew the trees would have had to go, or
in some instances, 'modern farming' methods were the cause of
clearance too. Ireland's population exploded after the introduction
of the potato and you can't grow spuds in forests so even if there
had been a desire to grow more trees, there would have been a strong
disincentive to do so.

Ireland had extensive forest cover well prior to the arrival of
potatos in Europe...which, remember, were introduced by Sir Walter
Raleigh after he returned from the New World...so you're telling me
that in the roughly 150 years between the arrival of the potato in
western Europe, including Ireland, from South America, and the Potato
Famine of the 1840s that Ireland's population grew so much that it had
also become deforested?

Why do you neglect to mention the impact on farm ownership patterns
incurred by the Penal Laws?

http://local.law.umn.edu/irishlaw/land.html

Also you neglect to mention that the English desire to build a fleet
of warships to fight the Spanish Armada and where they obtained the
timber to do so...

You may (or may not) know a lot about Botany but you don't know much
about the natural and human history of Ireland.

Ireland's population grew to around 8 million. But that had little to do
with the state of the forests. Disease and over harvesting of trees were the
main causes of the deforestation. Manufacturing, farming, and the monies
being made out of harvesting the peat bogs were main causes. (Alas Bord Na
Mona, so much for greed).
Blaming the British, (English) is merely being paranoid and specious.
Britain had more than enough forests of her own to build all the ships she
wished!!

--
Hal Ó Mearadhaigh.

In article ,
Hal Ó Mearadhaigh. wrote:
Someone else wrote:
On Thu, 8 May 2008 16:57:04 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:

Ireland's population grew to around 8 million. But that had little to do
with the state of the forests. Disease and over harvesting of trees were
the main causes of the deforestation.

As Ireland had no coal, the needs of 8 million people for charcoal and
cooking woulkd certainly damage the forests. Peat was available of course
- but only after the forests had made room for it.

If local attitudes to trees were the same then as now, it is surprising
that any trees survived at all.

"That tree will knock that wall down - cut it down".

I've heard that sentence so often, it makes me sick.



Manufacturing, farming, and the
monies being made out of harvesting the peat bogs were main causes.
(Alas Bord Na Mona, so much for greed). Blaming the British, (English)
is merely being paranoid and specious. Britain had more than enough
forests of her own to build all the ships she wished!!

As far as I'm aware Britain got most of it's marine supplies from the
Baltic countries - that trade certainly is mentioned quite frequently in
various history books.

Jochen

--

------------------------------------
Limavady and the Roe Valley
http://www.jochenlueg.freeuk.com

jl wrote:
....
Manufacturing, farming, and the
monies being made out of harvesting the peat bogs were main causes.
(Alas Bord Na Mona, so much for greed). Blaming the British,
(English) is merely being paranoid and specious. Britain had more
than enough forests of her own to build all the ships she wished!!

As far as I'm aware Britain got most of it's marine supplies from the
Baltic countries - that trade certainly is mentioned quite frequently
in various history books.

I wonder if anyone wrote a poem or song about Irish trees being cut down.
That would be interesting.


--


J/

SOTW: "Let's Impeach The President" - Neil Young

www.tolife.shadowcat.name