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Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
RJBL wrote: Cl. tetani; Cl. Welchii; various E.coli and salmonella strains and Cryptosporidium all are risks from the use of farmyard and stable manures. Historically, the biggest risk to agricultural labourers and gardeners has been tetanus and gas-gangrene infections of, often, very trivial wounds. The extent to which the organic veg growing fad has been responsible for the increase, over the last few decades is unestimated. Best to keep your AT injections up to date and wash and boil everything that you eat from your veg / salad patch Oh, nuts! WHAT increase in tetanus and gas-gangrene in the UK? The historical dangers were because a LOT of farm animals died from tetanus, anthrax etc. and the spores were everywhere. Well, they still are, but are not transmitted by that route any more because of the efficiency with which infected animals are detected and disposed of. Yes, keep your tetanus innoculation up to date, but don't use two century old information as a guide to safe practices. A lot of the others you mention are something that most people have some immunity to, or even aren't pathogens at all (for example, you NEED E. coli to stay healthy). There is also increasing evidence that preventing children from being exposed to them increases the risk of much more serious problems. Exercise your immune system and stop fussing. Yes, of course, some people are at special risk. Don't START training your immune system in old age or when ill, and so on. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
#3
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Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote: Depends which E. coli you are talking about. Many strains are highly pathogenic; I wouldn't like 0157 in me, for example, immunosuppressed or not. More info here if you don't mind being too bored: http://textbookofbacteriology.net/e.coli.html For "highly", read "slightly"! I wouldn't worry about 0157 - indeed, I may have it, for all I know to the contrary - as it is dangerous only to the very young, very old and immunosuppressed. If you look at the reference you gave, most of the pathogenic forms are described as dangerous to infants. All forms (even the symbiotic ones) are dangerous if they grow in the wrong place, which is one of the reasons you need immunity to a wide range of them. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
#4
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Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
wrote: In article , Jeff Layman wrote: Depends which E. coli you are talking about. Many strains are highly pathogenic; I wouldn't like 0157 in me, for example, immunosuppressed or not. More info here if you don't mind being too bored: http://textbookofbacteriology.net/e.coli.html For "highly", read "slightly"! I wouldn't worry about 0157 - indeed, I may have it, for all I know to the contrary - as it is dangerous only to the very young, very old and immunosuppressed. If you look at the reference you gave, most of the pathogenic forms are described as dangerous to infants. In the Odwall Apple juice case an 18 month old infant died. In the Dole spinach case, 3 octagenarians died, and in the latest, Nestle Toll House Refrigerated Cookie Dough, no one died. However, it is reported that e. coli O157:H7 really opens the sluices at both ends. Maybe not deadly, but not a walk in the park, either. The FDA suggested that you "contact your health care professional immediately, if you or your family have recently eaten recalled cookie dough and have had stomach cramps, vomiting, or diarrhea, with or without bloody stools." 'Nuff said. All forms (even the symbiotic ones) are dangerous if they grow in the wrong place, which is one of the reasons you need immunity to a wide range of them. Regards, Nick Maclaren. -- - Billy There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Will Rogers http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn |
#5
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Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
wrote:
In article , Jeff Layman wrote: Depends which E. coli you are talking about. Many strains are highly pathogenic; I wouldn't like 0157 in me, for example, immunosuppressed or not. More info here if you don't mind being too bored: http://textbookofbacteriology.net/e.coli.html For "highly", read "slightly"! Depends. May be true for neonatal meningitis (1:2000), but certainly not for UTI. Quote "Uropathogenic E. coli (UPEC) cause 90% of the urinary tract infections (UTI) in anatomically-normal, unobstructed urinary tracts.". I am amazed that the figure is so high. There are a lot of women out there with UTIs caused by UPEC. I wouldn't worry about 0157 - indeed, I may have it, for all I know to the contrary - as it is dangerous only to the very young, very old and immunosuppressed. I'm not arguing about how dangerous it is, merely commenting on pathogenicity. I've not had E. coli gut problems, but have had Salmonella, so can speak from experience about the pathogenicity of bacteria affecting the gut. Certainly not dangerous, but very debilitating, especially in a tropical climate. If you look at the reference you gave, most of the pathogenic forms are described as dangerous to infants. True for neonatal meningitis (couldn't really be anything else with that name!). but not so for UTI - see above quote. All forms (even the symbiotic ones) are dangerous if they grow in the wrong place, which is one of the reasons you need immunity to a wide range of them. I definitely agree with you on that. Constant exposure to low levels of bacteria is needed to keep the immune system ticking over properly. "Use it or lose it" applies here! -- Jeff |
#6
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Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote: Depends. May be true for neonatal meningitis (1:2000), but certainly not for UTI. Quote "Uropathogenic E. coli (UPEC) cause 90% of the urinary tract infections (UTI) in anatomically-normal, unobstructed urinary tracts.". I am amazed that the figure is so high. There are a lot of women out there with UTIs caused by UPEC. I believe that you have misunderstood that. What I have been told and read is that ALL variants are uropathogenic, if they establish there, and the vast majority of such infections are normal gut flora that have got into the wrong place. And it's not rare in men, either! So what it means is that 90% of such UTIs are E. coli, variant unknown. They don't usually bother to serotype further, as it doesn't affect the treatment. So one recommendation should definitely be not to indulge in kinky practices with fresh horse manure :-) More seriously, that is the reason for the various hand washing and body washing order recommendations, and instructions to parents on how to bathe children, especially girls. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
#7
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Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
it is a trade off, but organically produced food is safer according to this
report...... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31766160...h-food_safety/ "Avoiding MRSA Follow these tips to help reduce your risk of exposure to MRSA in meats: Shop smarter Look for the USDA organic seal. Organic meat might be less likely to have antibiotic-resistant or disease-causing organisms, as the animal hasn't been fed antibiotics, hormones to promote growth, or animal by-products. Other labels, such as no antibiotics added, are not verified by independent testing. Log on to eatwellguide.org to search for listings of stores and restaurants that offer no-antibiotic-use, grass-fed, or organic meats. Stock up on nonmeat protein sources such as beans, lentils, and tofu and swap them in for meat now and then. Visit prevention.com/veggies for recipe ideas. " "You may not have the same close contact with meat that a processing plant worker has, but scientists warn there is reason for concern: Most of us handle meat daily, as we bread chicken cutlets, trim fat from pork, or form chopped beef into burgers. Cooking does kill the microbe, but MRSA thrives on skin, so you can contract it by touching infected raw meat when you have a cut on your hand, explains Stuart Levy, MD, a Tufts University professor of microbiology and medicine. MRSA also flourishes in nasal passages, so touching your nose after touching meat gives the bug another way into your body, adds Smith. Tainted meat exposed Extensive research in Europe and Asia has found MRSA in many food animal species, and in the past year, US researchers have begun testing meat sold here. Scientists at Louisiana State University Agricultural Center tested 120 cuts of locally purchased meat and found MRSA in 4 percent of the pork and 1 percent of the beef. A University of Maryland scientist found it in 1 out of 300 pork samples from the Washington, DC, area. And a study in Canada (from which we import thousands of tons of meat annually) found MRSA in 9 percent of 212 pork samples. The percentages may be small, but according to the USDA, Americans eat more than 180 million pounds of meat every day. "When you consider the tiny size of the meat studies, the fact that they found any contamination at all is amazing," says Steven Roach, public health program director for Food Animal Concerns Trust. In some cases, the tainted meat probably came from infected animals; in others, already infected humans could have passed on MRSA to the meat during processing. Regardless of where it originated, even a small proportion of contaminated meat could mean a tremendous amount of MRSA out there. "We need more US research to figure out what's going on," says Roach." Somewhere between zone 5 and 6 tucked along the shore of Lake Michigan on the council grounds of the Fox, Mascouten, Potawatomi, and Winnebago |
#8
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Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
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#9
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Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
RJBL wrote: The various enteritis illness, some trivial some not so, have increased in frequency by a couple of orders of magnitude since the 1960's. ... Oh, really? Do you have any evidence that this is anything more than a recording artifact? Back in the 1960s, most people didn't call a doctor for mere D&V, whereas they do now. Related to this, there has been a HUGE increase in the number of people who are seriously infirm, because modern medical aid prevents them dying from other causes. A secondary effect, which particularly affects the serious incidents, is that the population has much less immunity now than it did then, because it has not had the exposure. It isn't clear how much that affects the statistics. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
#10
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Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
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#11
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Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
The string of illness and death due to contaminated leaf spinach was traced to a
field across the street from a herd of cows. Wild pigs were running thru the cow pats and on into the field of spinach carrying the bacteria with them. Ingrid Somewhere between zone 5 and 6 tucked along the shore of Lake Michigan on the council grounds of the Fox, Mascouten, Potawatomi, and Winnebago |
#12
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Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
RJBL wrote: wrote: In article , RJBL wrote: The various enteritis illness, some trivial some not so, have increased in frequency by a couple of orders of magnitude since the 1960's. ... Oh, really? Do you have any evidence that this is anything more than a recording artifact? Back in the 1960s, most people didn't call a doctor for mere D&V, whereas they do now. Related to this, there has been a HUGE increase in the number of people who are seriously infirm, because modern medical aid prevents them dying from other causes. A secondary effect, which particularly affects the serious incidents, is that the population has much less immunity now than it did then, because it has not had the exposure. It isn't clear how much that affects the statistics. Regards, Nick Maclaren. Nick Thanks for your thoughtful response. No evidence that it is any more than a recording artifact at all, of course. As I infer that you know well already public health and epidemiological data is bedevilled by recording artifacts; changes in notifiability criteria; changes in clinical diagnostic fashions and changes in the availability of experimental subjects to clinical examination. The recorded data do, indeed, show a very large increase in the apparent incidence of the minor enteric illnesses since the 1960s; as was predicted by Betty Hobbs all those years ago when the home food freezer first entered the consumer market in volume and home freezing preservation became fashionable. I guess that most patients still don't consult their GP when hit by a simple D&V bug. Typically for the first 24hrs because they cannot, phyically, get to the Clinic and thereafter because they feel, obviously, sufficiently recovered not to need further treatment. I surmise that the public records may show that the increase has been in cases of illness perceived to be 'severe' rather than 'trivial'. The original point was that gardeners would be prudent to be aware of the potential bacteriological hazards of the organic gardening fashion. It appears to be true, from the WHO published data, that those societies which practice, per force, strictly organic animal and human faecal soil fertilisation suffer high incidences of the enteric illnesses. The possible exception being China - where food is invariably cooked, and at high temperatures, and drinking water is invariably boiled - and has been for at least the last two thousand years. Your secondary observation re change in population immune response is intriguing. Many allergies and allergy originated illnesses like asthma do, indeed, appear to have become much more frequent in the last thirty or so. Various estimates suggest that the frequency of childhood asthma has increased between one and two orders of magnitude over that time. It seems to have exactly paralleled the decline of tobacco smoking in the population over the same period, although it would, of course, be heretical to postulate any causal connection. Returning to the exam question as originally set:- 1. Hot composting of material including horse and cow dung will probably at least pasteurise the material and thus kill off most/all the pathogenic bacteria. It may not destroy any Clostridial spores that have been formed in the compost; these will remain, potentially, dangerous for decades. 2. Cold composting will, almost certainly, not leave the compost safe in respect to the common pathogens. These may well die out in the compost over time. Takeaway message, still, :- A. Keep your AT course up to date; B. Treat any organically raised garden produce as contaminated. Wash it thoroughly and cook it properly. rjbl Just rinse my organic carrots please. Here in the good ol' U.S.of A., we like our shit factory fresh. Whether it be rat or bat shit in our peanuts, or collateral damage from our CAFOs, we just suck it down. It costs money to run a clean operation. You can't expect a company to be into social welfare. They privatize the profits, and socialize the costs (doctor's visits). http://www.agpolicy.org/weekcol/467.html http://www.foodpoisonjournal.com/200...tion/usda-sees -the-light-on-e-coli-o157h7-and-meat/ And on the humane treatment of animals front, http://www.grist.org/article/2009-07...-e.-coli-meat/ -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7843430.stm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go |
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