In article ,
Bud wrote:

On 2010-04-30, Naga Jolokia wrote:
Hi all,

Many thanks for your answers, suggestions.

That clay needs lots and lots and lots of peat moss.

Can you explain why that is? Peat moss is expensive, and only produces
short term water adsorption, which, with clay soil, isn't a problem.


It would be better for Naga to save his money and look at this site:
http://gardening.about.com/od/soil/a/GardenSoil.htm
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:16:03 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
brooklyn1 wrote:

Naga Jolokia wrote:

Many thanks for your answers, suggestions.

I am quite sure that the compost is derived from wood chips, grass
clippings, and leaves. It's not the sewer sludge type through.

Your only problem is one of short arm disease... your arms are too
short to reach your wallet.

In my experience (when I was very young and very foolish) the FREE
"compost" from municipal sources is not compost at all, it's
rotted/fermented organic matter in various levels of doneness,
typically not very done at all... if you can see the wood chips and
discern all the other bits of organic matter it's certainly not
composted or even rotted (composted and fermented are more different
than night and day). Also those wood chips (and other debris) are
collected willy nilly from various sources, most usually
contaminated with nefarious insect larvae, fungi, and quite possibly
toxins, especially toxins from lawn clippings... usually
shredded/chipped branches from roadsides collected by utility
companies and highway departments, but can well be chipped chemically
treated lumber, and even scraped up roadside soil containing oil
spills. The two times I availed myself of the freebies it was
definitively mulch (extremely poor quality mulch), not compost.
Placing it in my beds was a serious mistake, the insects/plant
diseases it harbored nearly destroyed all my shrubs and trees.
Fermented sewage sludge is a lot worse. If you really want compost I
strongly suggest you make your own, or buy bagged *sterilized*
compost. But (like ground meat) it's best to make your own, that's
the only way you'll know what/who is in it. If that FREE compost was
of any quality at all it would not be free, they'd bag it and sell
it... they are using citizen's property for supplimenting municipal
landfill sites.... it's called spreading the wealth around, so when
the inspectors arrive they won't designate your town dump another
Super Fund site.

Per your suggestions, I am going to mix it with some sand to improve
drainage.

Sand needs nothing to improve drainage, sand drains perfectly well on
it's own... adding compost to sand inhibits drainage... compost will
fill the voids between the sand particles. The compost won't last
long but for the short term it will hinder drainage... a lot of sweat
labor for nothing. To improve drainage look towards creating proper
grading, installing culverts, adding drainage ditches, placing
perforated piping, burying shale, etc. Adding compost will not
improve drainage... otherwise folks whose basements flood would get
rid of their sump pumps and spread compost about the basement floor.

I will also try it straight to see if the result is different
or not. I can't use the native soil in my back yard since it's like
pure clay. You need a hammer to break it when it's dry. And when it's
wet, you can't even work on it.

Mixing compost with poor soil will literally do nothing, nada,
zilch... compost will NOT improve soil one iota, certainly not the
kind of soil you describe. Compost is pure organic material that will
continue to decompose until in a very short time (less than a year)
will be totally gone... it will become dust that blows away from wind
and/or washes away from rain. Compost is a very short term
improvement that should be used in direct contact with plant roots on
a very temporary basis, as though it were potting medium. Working
compost into *your* soil is fine if you want to save on gym fees. What
you need, from your own words, is many 10 yard dump truck loads of
quality top soil, enough to cover your entire gardening area at least
six inches deep, preferably a full foot deep... but first tend to any
drainage problems with excavation.

After reading this group for a few years I've discovered that
absolutely no one (not even one person) knows what compost is, they
don't know the difference between compost and mulch... they are not
synonymous, in fact they are the exact opposites... compost is
decomposed organic material that *promotes* plant growth, mulch is any
material that *inhibits* plant growth (mulch is not necessarily
organic).

Free compost... nothing is free... fergedaboudit... t he only solution
to your problem is to grow longer arms.

The above comments DO NOT reflect the majority opinion of rec.gardens.
--
- Billy

This is not contradicting your particular stance about this issue, but
have you consulted everyone reading this group to establish that this
is the majority view, bearing in mind that not everyone who reads this
group, and has an opinion, actually posts to it in every thread? You
should be very careful about extrapolating views. It's like the people
who jump on posters they disagree with to say "we do not want you
here", and assume that they have the right to speak for everyone who
reads the newsgroup.

Geoff
Philosophically you raise a good question, but empirically, it is easy.
How many people have you ever seen agree with Shelly, a.k.a. brooklyn1?
How many people have you ever seen disagree with Shelly, a.k.a.
brooklyn1?
I rest my case.

The best garden soil is 30 - 40% sand, 30 - 40% silt, 20 - 30% clay, to
this add 5 - 10% organic material (such as your compost and/or manure),
and don't forget bone meal, or rock phosphate, and some wood ashes. If
you have any small pieces of charcoal (from real wood), or charcoal
dust, mix that in as well. Turn soil one time. It will be the last time
that you need to dig.

You can vastly improve the soil (in a raised bed or not, sandy or clay
soils) by growing rye, or buckwheat on it. These plants make miles of
root hairs. With further plantings, include legumes, or clover for
nitrogen. Look for seed mixes called "Green Manure".

There after use what is called lasagna gardening, or sheet mulching
(same, same).
http://organicgardening.about.com/od...en/a/lasagnaga
rden.htm
and/or
http://www.agroforestry.net/pubs/Sheet_Mulching.html
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:55:19 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:16:03 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
brooklyn1 wrote:

Naga Jolokia wrote:

Many thanks for your answers, suggestions.

I am quite sure that the compost is derived from wood chips, grass
clippings, and leaves. It's not the sewer sludge type through.

Your only problem is one of short arm disease... your arms are too
short to reach your wallet.

In my experience (when I was very young and very foolish) the FREE
"compost" from municipal sources is not compost at all, it's
rotted/fermented organic matter in various levels of doneness,
typically not very done at all... if you can see the wood chips and
discern all the other bits of organic matter it's certainly not
composted or even rotted (composted and fermented are more different
than night and day). Also those wood chips (and other debris) are
collected willy nilly from various sources, most usually
contaminated with nefarious insect larvae, fungi, and quite possibly
toxins, especially toxins from lawn clippings... usually
shredded/chipped branches from roadsides collected by utility
companies and highway departments, but can well be chipped chemically
treated lumber, and even scraped up roadside soil containing oil
spills. The two times I availed myself of the freebies it was
definitively mulch (extremely poor quality mulch), not compost.
Placing it in my beds was a serious mistake, the insects/plant
diseases it harbored nearly destroyed all my shrubs and trees.
Fermented sewage sludge is a lot worse. If you really want compost I
strongly suggest you make your own, or buy bagged *sterilized*
compost. But (like ground meat) it's best to make your own, that's
the only way you'll know what/who is in it. If that FREE compost was
of any quality at all it would not be free, they'd bag it and sell
it... they are using citizen's property for supplimenting municipal
landfill sites.... it's called spreading the wealth around, so when
the inspectors arrive they won't designate your town dump another
Super Fund site.

Per your suggestions, I am going to mix it with some sand to improve
drainage.

Sand needs nothing to improve drainage, sand drains perfectly well on
it's own... adding compost to sand inhibits drainage... compost will
fill the voids between the sand particles. The compost won't last
long but for the short term it will hinder drainage... a lot of sweat
labor for nothing. To improve drainage look towards creating proper
grading, installing culverts, adding drainage ditches, placing
perforated piping, burying shale, etc. Adding compost will not
improve drainage... otherwise folks whose basements flood would get
rid of their sump pumps and spread compost about the basement floor.

I will also try it straight to see if the result is different
or not. I can't use the native soil in my back yard since it's like
pure clay. You need a hammer to break it when it's dry. And when it's
wet, you can't even work on it.

Mixing compost with poor soil will literally do nothing, nada,
zilch... compost will NOT improve soil one iota, certainly not the
kind of soil you describe. Compost is pure organic material that will
continue to decompose until in a very short time (less than a year)
will be totally gone... it will become dust that blows away from wind
and/or washes away from rain. Compost is a very short term
improvement that should be used in direct contact with plant roots on
a very temporary basis, as though it were potting medium. Working
compost into *your* soil is fine if you want to save on gym fees. What
you need, from your own words, is many 10 yard dump truck loads of
quality top soil, enough to cover your entire gardening area at least
six inches deep, preferably a full foot deep... but first tend to any
drainage problems with excavation.

After reading this group for a few years I've discovered that
absolutely no one (not even one person) knows what compost is, they
don't know the difference between compost and mulch... they are not
synonymous, in fact they are the exact opposites... compost is
decomposed organic material that *promotes* plant growth, mulch is any
material that *inhibits* plant growth (mulch is not necessarily
organic).

Free compost... nothing is free... fergedaboudit... t he only solution
to your problem is to grow longer arms.

The above comments DO NOT reflect the majority opinion of rec.gardens.
--
- Billy

This is not contradicting your particular stance about this issue, but
have you consulted everyone reading this group to establish that this
is the majority view, bearing in mind that not everyone who reads this
group, and has an opinion, actually posts to it in every thread? You
should be very careful about extrapolating views. It's like the people
who jump on posters they disagree with to say "we do not want you
here", and assume that they have the right to speak for everyone who
reads the newsgroup.

Geoff
Philosophically you raise a good question, but empirically, it is easy.
How many people have you ever seen agree with Shelly, a.k.a. brooklyn1?
How many people have you ever seen disagree with Shelly, a.k.a.
brooklyn1?
I rest my case.

The best garden soil is 30 - 40% sand, 30 - 40% silt, 20 - 30% clay, to
this add 5 - 10% organic material (such as your compost and/or manure),
and don't forget bone meal, or rock phosphate, and some wood ashes. If
you have any small pieces of charcoal (from real wood), or charcoal
dust, mix that in as well. Turn soil one time. It will be the last time
that you need to dig.

You can vastly improve the soil (in a raised bed or not, sandy or clay
soils) by growing rye, or buckwheat on it. These plants make miles of
root hairs. With further plantings, include legumes, or clover for
nitrogen. Look for seed mixes called "Green Manure".

There after use what is called lasagna gardening, or sheet mulching
(same, same).
http://organicgardening.about.com/od...en/a/lasagnaga
rden.htm
and/or
http://www.agroforestry.net/pubs/Sheet_Mulching.html
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html


Sorry, you have not proved your case. If you wish to make your claim
on the basis of posts actually appearing on this newsgroup that it
would appear that most posts support your view, then you would be on
somewhat safer ground with this qualification, and I would not
necessarily quibble with you, although I would have to research
properly in the newsgroup archives as to whether this particular
assertion is correct. However, this is not actually what you said, and
to assume globally that your view is the majority view of everyone
(from around the world) who may read the newsgroup could be completely
false and indefensible. Have you conducted a poll of a defined sample
of people? Do you know everyone who reads this newsgroup? I have
lurked and occasionally posted here for years but I have not posted an
opinion on everything that has been raised. There are many issues in
which I prefer to see both sides of the debate, in which I am happy to
see yours as well as others in the group. I would certainly not wish
to censor anyone (and I hasten to add, that you don't appear to want
to do so either). Some people want to form an opinion and keep it to
themselves, so will not necessarily post. However, just because you
are pro-active in promoting your cause and are here regularly doing so
in this group does not mean that you can claim to speak for everyone
who reads it, which is what your statement appeared to be doing in
your original post.

Geoff

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:55:19 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:16:03 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
brooklyn1 wrote:

Naga Jolokia wrote:

Many thanks for your answers, suggestions.

I am quite sure that the compost is derived from wood chips, grass
clippings, and leaves. It's not the sewer sludge type through.

Your only problem is one of short arm disease... your arms are too
short to reach your wallet.

In my experience (when I was very young and very foolish) the FREE
"compost" from municipal sources is not compost at all, it's
rotted/fermented organic matter in various levels of doneness,
typically not very done at all... if you can see the wood chips and
discern all the other bits of organic matter it's certainly not
composted or even rotted (composted and fermented are more different
than night and day). Also those wood chips (and other debris) are
collected willy nilly from various sources, most usually
contaminated with nefarious insect larvae, fungi, and quite possibly
toxins, especially toxins from lawn clippings... usually
shredded/chipped branches from roadsides collected by utility
companies and highway departments, but can well be chipped chemically
treated lumber, and even scraped up roadside soil containing oil
spills. The two times I availed myself of the freebies it was
definitively mulch (extremely poor quality mulch), not compost.
Placing it in my beds was a serious mistake, the insects/plant
diseases it harbored nearly destroyed all my shrubs and trees.
Fermented sewage sludge is a lot worse. If you really want compost I
strongly suggest you make your own, or buy bagged *sterilized*
compost. But (like ground meat) it's best to make your own, that's
the only way you'll know what/who is in it. If that FREE compost was
of any quality at all it would not be free, they'd bag it and sell
it... they are using citizen's property for supplimenting municipal
landfill sites.... it's called spreading the wealth around, so when
the inspectors arrive they won't designate your town dump another
Super Fund site.

Per your suggestions, I am going to mix it with some sand to improve
drainage.

Sand needs nothing to improve drainage, sand drains perfectly well on
it's own... adding compost to sand inhibits drainage... compost will
fill the voids between the sand particles. The compost won't last
long but for the short term it will hinder drainage... a lot of sweat
labor for nothing. To improve drainage look towards creating proper
grading, installing culverts, adding drainage ditches, placing
perforated piping, burying shale, etc. Adding compost will not
improve drainage... otherwise folks whose basements flood would get
rid of their sump pumps and spread compost about the basement floor.

I will also try it straight to see if the result is different
or not. I can't use the native soil in my back yard since it's like
pure clay. You need a hammer to break it when it's dry. And when
it's
wet, you can't even work on it.

Mixing compost with poor soil will literally do nothing, nada,
zilch... compost will NOT improve soil one iota, certainly not the
kind of soil you describe. Compost is pure organic material that will
continue to decompose until in a very short time (less than a year)
will be totally gone... it will become dust that blows away from wind
and/or washes away from rain. Compost is a very short term
improvement that should be used in direct contact with plant roots on
a very temporary basis, as though it were potting medium. Working
compost into *your* soil is fine if you want to save on gym fees. What
you need, from your own words, is many 10 yard dump truck loads of
quality top soil, enough to cover your entire gardening area at least
six inches deep, preferably a full foot deep... but first tend to any
drainage problems with excavation.

After reading this group for a few years I've discovered that
absolutely no one (not even one person) knows what compost is, they
don't know the difference between compost and mulch... they are not
synonymous, in fact they are the exact opposites... compost is
decomposed organic material that *promotes* plant growth, mulch is any
material that *inhibits* plant growth (mulch is not necessarily
organic).

Free compost... nothing is free... fergedaboudit... t he only solution
to your problem is to grow longer arms.

The above comments DO NOT reflect the majority opinion of rec.gardens.
--
- Billy

This is not contradicting your particular stance about this issue, but
have you consulted everyone reading this group to establish that this
is the majority view, bearing in mind that not everyone who reads this
group, and has an opinion, actually posts to it in every thread? You
should be very careful about extrapolating views. It's like the people
who jump on posters they disagree with to say "we do not want you
here", and assume that they have the right to speak for everyone who
reads the newsgroup.

Geoff
Philosophically you raise a good question, but empirically, it is easy.
How many people have you ever seen agree with Shelly, a.k.a. brooklyn1?
How many people have you ever seen disagree with Shelly, a.k.a.
brooklyn1?
I rest my case.

The best garden soil is 30 - 40% sand, 30 - 40% silt, 20 - 30% clay, to
this add 5 - 10% organic material (such as your compost and/or manure),
and don't forget bone meal, or rock phosphate, and some wood ashes. If
you have any small pieces of charcoal (from real wood), or charcoal
dust, mix that in as well. Turn soil one time. It will be the last time
that you need to dig.

You can vastly improve the soil (in a raised bed or not, sandy or clay
soils) by growing rye, or buckwheat on it. These plants make miles of
root hairs. With further plantings, include legumes, or clover for
nitrogen. Look for seed mixes called "Green Manure".

There after use what is called lasagna gardening, or sheet mulching
(same, same).
http://organicgardening.about.com/od...en/a/lasagnaga
rden.htm
and/or
http://www.agroforestry.net/pubs/Sheet_Mulching.html
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html


Sorry, you have not proved your case. If you wish to make your claim
on the basis of posts actually appearing on this newsgroup that it
would appear that most posts support your view, then you would be on
somewhat safer ground with this qualification, and I would not
necessarily quibble with you, although I would have to research
properly in the newsgroup archives as to whether this particular
assertion is correct. However, this is not actually what you said, and
to assume globally that your view is the majority view of everyone
(from around the world) who may read the newsgroup could be completely
false and indefensible. Have you conducted a poll of a defined sample
of people? Do you know everyone who reads this newsgroup? I have
lurked and occasionally posted here for years but I have not posted an
opinion on everything that has been raised. There are many issues in
which I prefer to see both sides of the debate, in which I am happy to
see yours as well as others in the group. I would certainly not wish
to censor anyone (and I hasten to add, that you don't appear to want
to do so either). Some people want to form an opinion and keep it to
themselves, so will not necessarily post. However, just because you
are pro-active in promoting your cause and are here regularly doing so
in this group does not mean that you can claim to speak for everyone
who reads it, which is what your statement appeared to be doing in
your original post.

Geoff

'Ats a fair cop. Praps a bit'o hyperbole there. I'm not saying Shelly is
always wrong, no, no no, no. Like the analog watch he can be right twice
a day. Sometimes he can be spot on, but it's not worth the risk.

For a better understanding of Shelly, come with me down memory lane.

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:51:49 GMT
brooklyn1 wrote:
"'Mike'" wrote in message
...


"Colin" wrote in message
...
What's good for killing ivy without harming nearby fruit trees?
The neighbouring land (not someone's garden) has a couple of
seriously overgrown ivy plants and they're growing onto my property
and also growing all over the fruit trees next to them. I'd like
some sort off weedkiller to kill them that won't harm the trees.



Have you talked to the owner?

I would.

Mike


DUH!

You'd be one of those rare but pitiful neighbors where it would be
best to proceed with eraticating their invasive growth without giving
a heads up.

Why do so many of your posts include personal attacks? Do you enjoy
being
pointlessly nasty?

David
----

From: "brooklyn1"
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:51:49 GMT
It's only those who live on puny city lots or live in a furnished room
in a
tenement building who think wild rose is a nuisance plant... it's folks
who
have a few acres who appreciate wild rose as excellent wildlife habitat.
And it's extremely easy to keep wild rose, or any prolific plant, under
control with loppers and mowers... of course those who live in a
furnished
room wouldn't have a clue.

--------

And my personal favorite.

From: Sheldon
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 10:51:22 -0700 (PDT)

Christian wrote:
I own a business "Professional Pond Maintenance and Fish Care".

That's your first untruth... you *operate* a business.... you don't
own a business until your IRS return doesn't show you're operating at
a loss.

I'm not here to promote my business.

That's your second untruth.

I'm wanting to get any and all feedback, positive or negative,
on a website I designed recently to go with it. I advertise locally
and direct folks to my site for more information.

Here is the link:http://allyoudoisfeedthefish.net/index.html

What do you think of the basic design?
Can you read it easily?
Ads or no ads?

I'm thinking people here are close to my target audience, being that
garden lovers usually like ponds even if they don't personally have
one.

Thank You,
Christian

Your parents must have had high hopes for you to succeed in the
arts... you're not going to do well in business unless you change your
name.
----

Heck of a guy, huh?
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

In article
,
Billy wrote:

To recapitulate, Naga would best be served by mixing his compost at 5 -
10% of his soil. The ideal soil is 30-40% sand, 30-40% silt, and 10-20%
clay. Even the poorest of soils will be improved by growing rye or
buckwheat. Buckwheat has many health benefits, so I would probably chose
it. Once these plants have loosened the soil, I would grow a crop of
"green manure" to make the soil fertile. These two steps aren't necessary
for gardening but they will improve your yields. Clay and humus (from
the compost that you add) hold water and nutrients. Sand allows for
draining, and the silt is a happy medium to keep the soil from getting
too wet or drying out too fast.

The main problem as I see it with 100% compost, is too damp an
environment, and since the compost slowly, and inexorably, decays into
CO2 and water, the anchoring ability of the compost will be reduced, and
his plants may fall over, or their roots will be exposed.

The rehabilitation of Shelly is totally another matter, which should not
obfuscate the information that Naga needs.

Good gardening, Naga.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:11:51 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:55:19 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:16:03 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
brooklyn1 wrote:

Naga Jolokia wrote:

Many thanks for your answers, suggestions.

I am quite sure that the compost is derived from wood chips, grass
clippings, and leaves. It's not the sewer sludge type through.

Your only problem is one of short arm disease... your arms are too
short to reach your wallet.

In my experience (when I was very young and very foolish) the FREE
"compost" from municipal sources is not compost at all, it's
rotted/fermented organic matter in various levels of doneness,
typically not very done at all... if you can see the wood chips and
discern all the other bits of organic matter it's certainly not
composted or even rotted (composted and fermented are more different
than night and day). Also those wood chips (and other debris) are
collected willy nilly from various sources, most usually
contaminated with nefarious insect larvae, fungi, and quite possibly
toxins, especially toxins from lawn clippings... usually
shredded/chipped branches from roadsides collected by utility
companies and highway departments, but can well be chipped chemically
treated lumber, and even scraped up roadside soil containing oil
spills. The two times I availed myself of the freebies it was
definitively mulch (extremely poor quality mulch), not compost.
Placing it in my beds was a serious mistake, the insects/plant
diseases it harbored nearly destroyed all my shrubs and trees.
Fermented sewage sludge is a lot worse. If you really want compost I
strongly suggest you make your own, or buy bagged *sterilized*
compost. But (like ground meat) it's best to make your own, that's
the only way you'll know what/who is in it. If that FREE compost was
of any quality at all it would not be free, they'd bag it and sell
it... they are using citizen's property for supplimenting municipal
landfill sites.... it's called spreading the wealth around, so when
the inspectors arrive they won't designate your town dump another
Super Fund site.

Per your suggestions, I am going to mix it with some sand to improve
drainage.

Sand needs nothing to improve drainage, sand drains perfectly well on
it's own... adding compost to sand inhibits drainage... compost will
fill the voids between the sand particles. The compost won't last
long but for the short term it will hinder drainage... a lot of sweat
labor for nothing. To improve drainage look towards creating proper
grading, installing culverts, adding drainage ditches, placing
perforated piping, burying shale, etc. Adding compost will not
improve drainage... otherwise folks whose basements flood would get
rid of their sump pumps and spread compost about the basement floor.

I will also try it straight to see if the result is different
or not. I can't use the native soil in my back yard since it's like
pure clay. You need a hammer to break it when it's dry. And when
it's
wet, you can't even work on it.

Mixing compost with poor soil will literally do nothing, nada,
zilch... compost will NOT improve soil one iota, certainly not the
kind of soil you describe. Compost is pure organic material that will
continue to decompose until in a very short time (less than a year)
will be totally gone... it will become dust that blows away from wind
and/or washes away from rain. Compost is a very short term
improvement that should be used in direct contact with plant roots on
a very temporary basis, as though it were potting medium. Working
compost into *your* soil is fine if you want to save on gym fees. What
you need, from your own words, is many 10 yard dump truck loads of
quality top soil, enough to cover your entire gardening area at least
six inches deep, preferably a full foot deep... but first tend to any
drainage problems with excavation.

After reading this group for a few years I've discovered that
absolutely no one (not even one person) knows what compost is, they
don't know the difference between compost and mulch... they are not
synonymous, in fact they are the exact opposites... compost is
decomposed organic material that *promotes* plant growth, mulch is any
material that *inhibits* plant growth (mulch is not necessarily
organic).

Free compost... nothing is free... fergedaboudit... t he only solution
to your problem is to grow longer arms.

The above comments DO NOT reflect the majority opinion of rec.gardens.
--
- Billy

This is not contradicting your particular stance about this issue, but
have you consulted everyone reading this group to establish that this
is the majority view, bearing in mind that not everyone who reads this
group, and has an opinion, actually posts to it in every thread? You
should be very careful about extrapolating views. It's like the people
who jump on posters they disagree with to say "we do not want you
here", and assume that they have the right to speak for everyone who
reads the newsgroup.

Geoff
Philosophically you raise a good question, but empirically, it is easy.
How many people have you ever seen agree with Shelly, a.k.a. brooklyn1?
How many people have you ever seen disagree with Shelly, a.k.a.
brooklyn1?
I rest my case.

The best garden soil is 30 - 40% sand, 30 - 40% silt, 20 - 30% clay, to
this add 5 - 10% organic material (such as your compost and/or manure),
and don't forget bone meal, or rock phosphate, and some wood ashes. If
you have any small pieces of charcoal (from real wood), or charcoal
dust, mix that in as well. Turn soil one time. It will be the last time
that you need to dig.

You can vastly improve the soil (in a raised bed or not, sandy or clay
soils) by growing rye, or buckwheat on it. These plants make miles of
root hairs. With further plantings, include legumes, or clover for
nitrogen. Look for seed mixes called "Green Manure".

There after use what is called lasagna gardening, or sheet mulching
(same, same).
http://organicgardening.about.com/od...en/a/lasagnaga
rden.htm
and/or
http://www.agroforestry.net/pubs/Sheet_Mulching.html
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html


Sorry, you have not proved your case. If you wish to make your claim
on the basis of posts actually appearing on this newsgroup that it
would appear that most posts support your view, then you would be on
somewhat safer ground with this qualification, and I would not
necessarily quibble with you, although I would have to research
properly in the newsgroup archives as to whether this particular
assertion is correct. However, this is not actually what you said, and
to assume globally that your view is the majority view of everyone
(from around the world) who may read the newsgroup could be completely
false and indefensible. Have you conducted a poll of a defined sample
of people? Do you know everyone who reads this newsgroup? I have
lurked and occasionally posted here for years but I have not posted an
opinion on everything that has been raised. There are many issues in
which I prefer to see both sides of the debate, in which I am happy to
see yours as well as others in the group. I would certainly not wish
to censor anyone (and I hasten to add, that you don't appear to want
to do so either). Some people want to form an opinion and keep it to
themselves, so will not necessarily post. However, just because you
are pro-active in promoting your cause and are here regularly doing so
in this group does not mean that you can claim to speak for everyone
who reads it, which is what your statement appeared to be doing in
your original post.

Geoff

'Ats a fair cop. Praps a bit'o hyperbole there. I'm not saying Shelly is
always wrong, no, no no, no. Like the analog watch he can be right twice
a day. Sometimes he can be spot on, but it's not worth the risk.

For a better understanding of Shelly, come with me down memory lane.

snip

Heck of a guy, huh?
--
- Billy

Billy, I've snipped the "memory lane" just for brevity and not to
censor your words. I remember some of those episodes well and agree
with you that they were unsavoury. However, I still defend the right
of anybody who wishes to express a view or describe an experience
relating to gardening issues here in a public forum to go ahead and do
so. You say that he (Shelly) sometimes "can be spot on, but it's not
worth the risk". For that reason alone I would contend that it *is*
worth the risk and surely people can make up their own minds about
what he says, especially if there are diligent well argued replies to
counter his views from other posters, such as yourself, when
expressing your own opinion. I've made my point and will retreat back
to "lurkdom"!

best wishes

Geoff

GMT, wrote:

Billy, I've snipped the "memory lane" just for brevity and not to
censor your words. I remember some of those episodes well and agree
with you that they were unsavoury.

My remarks were not unsavory, except to those wusses ascared of
*truth*. And WTF are you to make yourself judge and jury... when you
don't play the game you don't get to make the rules... you're only a
scumbag cowardly lurker who contributes absolutely nothing but your
occasionally oozing out from under your rock to cause a putrid stench
and to do some COWARDLY left handed opportunist sniping before
scurrying back to your slime.... you may envision yourself some hero
type but in fact you ARE *unsavory* _garbage_. You're far worse than
Billygoat, he contributes nothing useful either but at least he's not
hiding. Your only purpose for making your presense was to highlight
the Billygoat's manure, regardless your claim of innocent
protectionism... you're as phony as any politico. Now stay TF away.

All my gardening posts are based on my own personal- hands in the
ground -*practical* experience, unlike the Billygoat's theoretical
-never touched dirt- fantasies. If even one person benefits from my
posts that fine with me, the rest of you obviously envious bashers can
drop dead.

Ode to Billy:
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/3/23/17556/4451

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:11:51 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:55:19 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:16:03 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
brooklyn1 wrote:

Naga Jolokia wrote:

Many thanks for your answers, suggestions.

I am quite sure that the compost is derived from wood chips, grass
clippings, and leaves. It's not the sewer sludge type through.

Your only problem is one of short arm disease... your arms are too
short to reach your wallet.

In my experience (when I was very young and very foolish) the FREE
"compost" from municipal sources is not compost at all, it's
rotted/fermented organic matter in various levels of doneness,
typically not very done at all... if you can see the wood chips and
discern all the other bits of organic matter it's certainly not
composted or even rotted (composted and fermented are more different
than night and day). Also those wood chips (and other debris) are
collected willy nilly from various sources, most usually
contaminated with nefarious insect larvae, fungi, and quite possibly
toxins, especially toxins from lawn clippings... usually
shredded/chipped branches from roadsides collected by utility
companies and highway departments, but can well be chipped
chemically
treated lumber, and even scraped up roadside soil containing oil
spills. The two times I availed myself of the freebies it was
definitively mulch (extremely poor quality mulch), not compost.
Placing it in my beds was a serious mistake, the insects/plant
diseases it harbored nearly destroyed all my shrubs and trees.
Fermented sewage sludge is a lot worse. If you really want compost
I
strongly suggest you make your own, or buy bagged *sterilized*
compost. But (like ground meat) it's best to make your own, that's
the only way you'll know what/who is in it. If that FREE compost
was
of any quality at all it would not be free, they'd bag it and sell
it... they are using citizen's property for supplimenting municipal
landfill sites.... it's called spreading the wealth around, so when
the inspectors arrive they won't designate your town dump another
Super Fund site.

Per your suggestions, I am going to mix it with some sand to
improve
drainage.

Sand needs nothing to improve drainage, sand drains perfectly well
on
it's own... adding compost to sand inhibits drainage... compost will
fill the voids between the sand particles. The compost won't last
long but for the short term it will hinder drainage... a lot of
sweat
labor for nothing. To improve drainage look towards creating proper
grading, installing culverts, adding drainage ditches, placing
perforated piping, burying shale, etc. Adding compost will not
improve drainage... otherwise folks whose basements flood would get
rid of their sump pumps and spread compost about the basement
floor.

I will also try it straight to see if the result is different
or not. I can't use the native soil in my back yard since it's
like
pure clay. You need a hammer to break it when it's dry. And when
it's
wet, you can't even work on it.

Mixing compost with poor soil will literally do nothing, nada,
zilch... compost will NOT improve soil one iota, certainly not the
kind of soil you describe. Compost is pure organic material that
will
continue to decompose until in a very short time (less than a year)
will be totally gone... it will become dust that blows away from
wind
and/or washes away from rain. Compost is a very short term
improvement that should be used in direct contact with plant roots
on
a very temporary basis, as though it were potting medium. Working
compost into *your* soil is fine if you want to save on gym fees.
What
you need, from your own words, is many 10 yard dump truck loads of
quality top soil, enough to cover your entire gardening area at
least
six inches deep, preferably a full foot deep... but first tend to
any
drainage problems with excavation.

After reading this group for a few years I've discovered that
absolutely no one (not even one person) knows what compost is, they
don't know the difference between compost and mulch... they are not
synonymous, in fact they are the exact opposites... compost is
decomposed organic material that *promotes* plant growth, mulch is
any
material that *inhibits* plant growth (mulch is not necessarily
organic).

Free compost... nothing is free... fergedaboudit... t he only
solution
to your problem is to grow longer arms.

The above comments DO NOT reflect the majority opinion of rec.gardens.
--
- Billy

This is not contradicting your particular stance about this issue, but
have you consulted everyone reading this group to establish that this
is the majority view, bearing in mind that not everyone who reads this
group, and has an opinion, actually posts to it in every thread? You
should be very careful about extrapolating views. It's like the people
who jump on posters they disagree with to say "we do not want you
here", and assume that they have the right to speak for everyone who
reads the newsgroup.

Geoff
Philosophically you raise a good question, but empirically, it is easy.
How many people have you ever seen agree with Shelly, a.k.a. brooklyn1?
How many people have you ever seen disagree with Shelly, a.k.a.
brooklyn1?
I rest my case.

The best garden soil is 30 - 40% sand, 30 - 40% silt, 20 - 30% clay, to
this add 5 - 10% organic material (such as your compost and/or manure),
and don't forget bone meal, or rock phosphate, and some wood ashes. If
you have any small pieces of charcoal (from real wood), or charcoal
dust, mix that in as well. Turn soil one time. It will be the last time
that you need to dig.

You can vastly improve the soil (in a raised bed or not, sandy or clay
soils) by growing rye, or buckwheat on it. These plants make miles of
root hairs. With further plantings, include legumes, or clover for
nitrogen. Look for seed mixes called "Green Manure".

There after use what is called lasagna gardening, or sheet mulching
(same, same).
http://organicgardening.about.com/od...en/a/lasagnaga
rden.htm
and/or
http://www.agroforestry.net/pubs/Sheet_Mulching.html
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html


Sorry, you have not proved your case. If you wish to make your claim
on the basis of posts actually appearing on this newsgroup that it
would appear that most posts support your view, then you would be on
somewhat safer ground with this qualification, and I would not
necessarily quibble with you, although I would have to research
properly in the newsgroup archives as to whether this particular
assertion is correct. However, this is not actually what you said, and
to assume globally that your view is the majority view of everyone
(from around the world) who may read the newsgroup could be completely
false and indefensible. Have you conducted a poll of a defined sample
of people? Do you know everyone who reads this newsgroup? I have
lurked and occasionally posted here for years but I have not posted an
opinion on everything that has been raised. There are many issues in
which I prefer to see both sides of the debate, in which I am happy to
see yours as well as others in the group. I would certainly not wish
to censor anyone (and I hasten to add, that you don't appear to want
to do so either). Some people want to form an opinion and keep it to
themselves, so will not necessarily post. However, just because you
are pro-active in promoting your cause and are here regularly doing so
in this group does not mean that you can claim to speak for everyone
who reads it, which is what your statement appeared to be doing in
your original post.

Geoff

'Ats a fair cop. Praps a bit'o hyperbole there. I'm not saying Shelly is
always wrong, no, no no, no. Like the analog watch he can be right twice
a day. Sometimes he can be spot on, but it's not worth the risk.

For a better understanding of Shelly, come with me down memory lane.

snip

Heck of a guy, huh?
--
- Billy

Billy, I've snipped the "memory lane" just for brevity and not to
censor your words. I remember some of those episodes well and agree
with you that they were unsavoury. However, I still defend the right
of anybody who wishes to express a view or describe an experience
relating to gardening issues here in a public forum to go ahead and do
so. You say that he (Shelly) sometimes "can be spot on, but it's not
worth the risk". For that reason alone I would contend that it *is*
worth the risk and surely people can make up their own minds about
what he says, especially if there are diligent well argued replies to
counter his views from other posters, such as yourself, when
expressing your own opinion. I've made my point and will retreat back
to "lurkdom"!

best wishes

Geoff

Point taken. Good lurking ;O)
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

In article ,
brooklyn1 wrote:

GMT, wrote:

Billy, I've snipped the "memory lane" just for brevity and not to
censor your words. I remember some of those episodes well and agree
with you that they were unsavoury.

My remarks were not unsavory, except to those wusses ascared of
*truth*. And WTF are you to make yourself judge and jury... when you
don't play the game you don't get to make the rules... you're only a
scumbag cowardly lurker who contributes absolutely nothing but your
occasionally oozing out from under your rock to cause a putrid stench
and to do some COWARDLY left handed opportunist sniping before
scurrying back to your slime.... you may envision yourself some hero
type but in fact you ARE *unsavory* _garbage_. You're far worse than
Billygoat, he contributes nothing useful either but at least he's not
hiding. Your only purpose for making your presense was to highlight
the Billygoat's manure, regardless your claim of innocent
protectionism... you're as phony as any politico. Now stay TF away.

All my gardening posts are based on my own personal- hands in the
ground -*practical* experience, unlike the Billygoat's theoretical
-never touched dirt- fantasies. If even one person benefits from my
posts that fine with me, the rest of you obviously envious bashers can
drop dead.

ROFL ;O))
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

On Sat, 01 May 2010 09:41:14 -0400, brooklyn1
wrote:

GMT, wrote:

Billy, I've snipped the "memory lane" just for brevity and not to
censor your words. I remember some of those episodes well and agree
with you that they were unsavoury.

My remarks were not unsavory, except to those wusses ascared of
*truth*. And WTF are you to make yourself judge and jury... when you
don't play the game you don't get to make the rules... you're only a
scumbag cowardly lurker who contributes absolutely nothing but your
occasionally oozing out from under your rock to cause a putrid stench
and to do some COWARDLY left handed opportunist sniping before
scurrying back to your slime.... you may envision yourself some hero
type but in fact you ARE *unsavory* _garbage_. You're far worse than
Billygoat, he contributes nothing useful either but at least he's not
hiding. Your only purpose for making your presense was to highlight
the Billygoat's manure, regardless your claim of innocent
protectionism... you're as phony as any politico. Now stay TF away.

All my gardening posts are based on my own personal- hands in the
ground -*practical* experience, unlike the Billygoat's theoretical
-never touched dirt- fantasies. If even one person benefits from my
posts that fine with me, the rest of you obviously envious bashers can
drop dead.


I was expressing an opinion, Sheldon, just like you have ........

ROFL.

Geoff

On 2010-04-30, Billy wrote:
Bud wrote:

On 2010-04-30, Naga Jolokia wrote:
Hi all,

Many thanks for your answers, suggestions.

That clay needs lots and lots and lots of peat moss.

Can you explain why that is? Peat moss is expensive, and only produces
short term water adsorption, which, with clay soil, isn't a problem.

It would be better for Naga to save his money and look at this site:
http://gardening.about.com/od/soil/a/GardenSoil.htm

I looked, and so what? There is still a need to loosen the clay.
Start with a 3-4 inch layer of sand, add peat and if the soil is
clay, it needs at least 4-8 inches of peat moss. Use spading fork
to get a real work out or the easy way, a tiller. Go deep. Add
compost on top, if ya got it or as you say there are winter cover
crops, I'd prefer clover to add nitrogen and then plant what ever
you want to grow and produce some edible crops. You can grow some
beans and peas to increase nitrogen content in one area and then
put corn in the next year. Gardening is not a one time project,
it takes a few years to get the soil you want. And it is organic
soil. Yeah, one does notice the difference in taste.

There is nothing like getting ones hands in the dirt. Now I can't
but the several years I did, there is nothing like sitting in the
garden and watching what is going on with the insects ane how
they interact with the plants.
--
Bud

In article ,
Bud wrote:

On 2010-04-30, Billy wrote:
Bud wrote:

On 2010-04-30, Naga Jolokia wrote:
Hi all,

Many thanks for your answers, suggestions.

That clay needs lots and lots and lots of peat moss.

Can you explain why that is? Peat moss is expensive, and only produces
short term water adsorption, which, with clay soil, isn't a problem.

It would be better for Naga to save his money and look at this site:
http://gardening.about.com/od/soil/a/GardenSoil.htm

I looked, and so what? There is still a need to loosen the clay.
Start with a 3-4 inch layer of sand, add peat and if the soil is
clay, it needs at least 4-8 inches of peat moss. Use spading fork
to get a real work out or the easy way, a tiller. Go deep. Add
compost on top, if ya got it or as you say there are winter cover
crops, I'd prefer clover to add nitrogen and then plant what ever
you want to grow and produce some edible crops. You can grow some
beans and peas to increase nitrogen content in one area and then
put corn in the next year. Gardening is not a one time project,
it takes a few years to get the soil you want. And it is organic
soil. Yeah, one does notice the difference in taste.

There is nothing like getting ones hands in the dirt. Now I can't
but the several years I did, there is nothing like sitting in the
garden and watching what is going on with the insects ane how
they interact with the plants.

A damn fine answer, . . . to a different question.

On 4/29/10 8:58 AM, Naga Jolokia wrote:
Hi all,

Is it alright to use compost straight without mixing it with soil or
other additives? I plan to fill up some raised beds with cheap compost
that I can get from a local recycle center.

Thanks.

The above is the question that Naga wants answered. He has clay soil,
but is going to use raised beds. K?

By this time, I suspect he has both hands over his head, and is running
off into the bush, to escape the crazy people.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

In article ,
wrote:

On Sat, 01 May 2010 09:41:14 -0400, brooklyn1
wrote:

GMT, wrote:

Billy, I've snipped the "memory lane" just for brevity and not to
censor your words. I remember some of those episodes well and agree
with you that they were unsavoury.

My remarks were not unsavory, except to those wusses ascared of
*truth*. And WTF are you to make yourself judge and jury... when you
don't play the game you don't get to make the rules... you're only a
scumbag cowardly lurker who contributes absolutely nothing but your
occasionally oozing out from under your rock to cause a putrid stench
and to do some COWARDLY left handed opportunist sniping before
scurrying back to your slime.... you may envision yourself some hero
type but in fact you ARE *unsavory* _garbage_. You're far worse than
Billygoat, he contributes nothing useful either but at least he's not
hiding. Your only purpose for making your presense was to highlight
the Billygoat's manure, regardless your claim of innocent
protectionism... you're as phony as any politico. Now stay TF away.

All my gardening posts are based on my own personal- hands in the
ground -*practical* experience, unlike the Billygoat's theoretical
-never touched dirt- fantasies. If even one person benefits from my
posts that fine with me, the rest of you obviously envious bashers can
drop dead.


I was expressing an opinion, Sheldon, just like you have ........

ROFL.

Geoff

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few
who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric
fence and find out for themselves.
- Will Rogers

P.S. My nascent garden can be seen in alt.binaries.pictures.gardens
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

On 5/1/2010 1:21 PM, Billy wrote:

A damn fine answer, . . . to a different question.

Hi everyone,

I actually learn a lot from these answers.

I just got the first yard of compost today. Perhaps at least 5 more
loads during next week.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/...Waste/Home.htm

At about $25 a yard--more like three yards--to me, it's quite a much
better deal than the bagged stuff from Home Depot.

The stuff looks marvelous. It's all black with small pieces of
partially composted wood chips. I think that would help a lot with the
drainage but I am quite sure that without added sand, this stuff is
going to retain water for a much longer period. I initially plan to add
only sand to improve drainage, now per your suggestions, I think I have
to mix in some clay to help the stuff binding together.

My next question.

I need to redo the lawn. Currently, my lawn is really not a lawn at
all. It's mostly bared, hard clay soil with weeds and a few strains of
grass. It looks quite terrible. From my understanding, the grass roots
can't penetrate the clay and also that the water can't get down to the
soil deep enough to support the grass.

I plan to put a layer of compost mixed with screened fill dirt on top of
the clay.

My question is: How thick the new layer of soil should be to support
the grass and retain water for a reasonable period? I am looking for
the minimum thickness, not the optimal one, for the obvious reason of
cost. The question can be asked in another form: how deep the root of
the grass normally reach down into the soil?

Many thanks for your suggestions and help.

Naga

Bud wrote:
On 2010-04-30, Naga Jolokia wrote:
Hi all,

Many thanks for your answers, suggestions.

That clay needs lots and lots and lots of peat moss.

There are much better; that is cheaper and more effective ways to deal with
clay than by adding peat moss unless you are filling something the size of a
hanging basket, in which case you didn' t need to have the clay.

David