hello all,

i'm trying to rescue a few tulip beds and
will be redoing them from scratch this year,
the bulbs that are already there i would like
to lift and store, but i haven't done much
with actually storing them before (i usually
plant them and leave them in the ground).

i will lift them rinse them and dunk them in a
antifungal to make sure i'm not moving the fungus
along with them.

when i try to find fungus stuff to dunk in i'm
coming up with Bordeaux mix and not much
else, but there should be some other things that
are not so toxic to the other good critters out
there? my main concern here is that some had
fungus attacking them this year and i'd like to
move them and leave the fungus behind...

i was thinking that limewater alone would
probably be ok as long as they were not soaking
in it for too long? (calcium hydroxide powder
mixed in water, not too strong, perhaps a few
tablespoons per gallon) then let them dry.

as for actual storage, dusting with anti-fungal
powders is recommended, but what would you use
here? corn starch and a little baking soda mixed
together? or?

i have shredded paper to use as a storage
material, and was going to dunk and dry this
too as extra measure against spores falling off
and sticking to the bedding, i'll layer them in
box tops stacked crosswise so they'll have
plenty of air.

the trouble i see here mostly is that it will be
warm where i store them (and dry other than
the ambient humidity) and i'll be able to keep
an eye on them. perhaps up into the 90s for
a few days here or there. i always thought that
tulips liked hot and dry so i wasn't worried
about this, but some reading has me wondering...

i wish i had a root cellar or other storage place,
but not yet... i thought at first that i could dig
a hole for them and that would keep them
cooler, but they need to be kept dry too and
that's not going to work for any holes hereabouts.

thank you for your answers, insight, questions,
etc.

other musings in other posts...


songbird

On 6/9/10 8:36 AM, songbird wrote:
hello all,

i'm trying to rescue a few tulip beds and
will be redoing them from scratch this year,
the bulbs that are already there i would like
to lift and store, but i haven't done much
with actually storing them before (i usually
plant them and leave them in the ground).

i will lift them rinse them and dunk them in a
antifungal to make sure i'm not moving the fungus
along with them.

when i try to find fungus stuff to dunk in i'm
coming up with Bordeaux mix and not much
else, but there should be some other things that
are not so toxic to the other good critters out
there? my main concern here is that some had
fungus attacking them this year and i'd like to
move them and leave the fungus behind...

i was thinking that limewater alone would
probably be ok as long as they were not soaking
in it for too long? (calcium hydroxide powder
mixed in water, not too strong, perhaps a few
tablespoons per gallon) then let them dry.

as for actual storage, dusting with anti-fungal
powders is recommended, but what would you use
here? corn starch and a little baking soda mixed
together? or?

i have shredded paper to use as a storage
material, and was going to dunk and dry this
too as extra measure against spores falling off
and sticking to the bedding, i'll layer them in
box tops stacked crosswise so they'll have
plenty of air.

the trouble i see here mostly is that it will be
warm where i store them (and dry other than
the ambient humidity) and i'll be able to keep
an eye on them. perhaps up into the 90s for
a few days here or there. i always thought that
tulips liked hot and dry so i wasn't worried
about this, but some reading has me wondering...

i wish i had a root cellar or other storage place,
but not yet... i thought at first that i could dig
a hole for them and that would keep them
cooler, but they need to be kept dry too and
that's not going to work for any holes hereabouts.

thank you for your answers, insight, questions,
etc.

other musings in other posts...


songbird

I don't think lime water is effective as a fungicide. If you really had
a fungus and not a virus, I would use sulfur.

Buy some DUSTING sulfur. Don't get granular soil sulfur. Make sure it
is dust, which can still be used in the soil. Sulfur is a natural
element, not something manufactured.

Wait until all foliage dies and the bulbs go dormant. Dig them up and
discard any that are already infected.

Put the remaining bulbs -- a few at a time -- in a paper or plastic bag
with a generous amount of dusting sulfur. Gently shake the bag to
ensure each bulb is well coated with sulfur.

If you live in a cold-winter climate suitable for tulips, replant them
immediately. Don't bother storing them. If you live in a mild-winter
climate, store them in a cool, dark place in slightly moist peat moss,
which inhibits fungus; then refrigerate them in the vegetable bin for
about 6-8 weeks just before planting.

Whenever you replant them, stir a handful of bone meal into the bottom
of the planting hole. Stir a half-handful of sulfur into the rest of
the soil from the hole. Place about an inch of the sulfured soil above
the bone meal area so that the bulb does not directly touch the
fertilizer. Plant.

The bone meal will supply phosphorus, which promotes flowers, roots, and
new bulbs. The sulfur will be slowly converted into sulfuric acid,
which will act as a fungicide.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

David E. Ross wrote:
songbird wrote:

hello all,

i'm trying to rescue a few tulip beds and
will be redoing them from scratch this year,
the bulbs that are already there i would like
to lift and store, but i haven't done much
with actually storing them before (i usually
plant them and leave them in the ground).
....
I don't think lime water is effective as a fungicide. If you
really
had a fungus and not a virus, I would use sulfur.

whups i forgot to mention i'm Zone 5b here (mid
michigan USA). we get some cold snaps in the
winter but rarely below -15F.



and definitely fungus.

some reading has mentioned soaking the bulbs in
a fungicidal solution of some kind, but they have not
mentioned what they used...


Buy some DUSTING sulfur. Don't get granular soil sulfur. Make
sure
it is dust, which can still be used in the soil. Sulfur is a
natural
element, not something manufactured.

right, gotcha there.


Wait until all foliage dies and the bulbs go dormant. Dig them
up and
discard any that are already infected.

if they look sound and healthy i would like to try
keeping them all. i'm not talking about bulb rot
type of fungus (those i would discard). i haven't
had troubles with bulb rot this year that i can tell
(amazing considering how wet it has been).


Put the remaining bulbs -- a few at a time -- in a paper or
plastic
bag with a generous amount of dusting sulfur. Gently shake the
bag to
ensure each bulb is well coated with sulfur.

can i find this at a farmer/grain elevator type place?


If you live in a cold-winter climate suitable for tulips,
replant them
immediately. Don't bother storing them. If you live in a
mild-winter
climate, store them in a cool, dark place in slightly moist
peat moss,
which inhibits fungus; then refrigerate them in the vegetable
bin for
about 6-8 weeks just before planting.

cold winter, but too wet in the summer, and i can't
replant them immediately as i'm redoing their gardens
so they need to be out of the way for a bit. in the
past i have replanted immediately and they seem to
do ok, but i think some species like it drier than what
we get. so a few months out of the ground would
do that for sure.


Whenever you replant them, stir a handful of bone meal into the
bottom
of the planting hole. Stir a half-handful of sulfur into the
rest of
the soil from the hole. Place about an inch of the sulfured
soil
above the bone meal area so that the bulb does not directly
touch the
fertilizer. Plant.

hm, i've avoided bone-meal for quite a while now because of
the disease problems (prion, brain sponge good bye memories).
however, i've been happy with a small layer of sharp sand in
between the bulb and the mixture below.

the mixture below i'm planning on using sharp sand and
some composted cow manure (perhaps 75/25 mix), but
avoiding peat moss entirely as it holds water and i don't
need any water retention. (the whole idea of raising the
beds and redoing them is to get things dryer). in the past
i'd used a mix of sand, clay and peat moss, but that has
turned out poorly (too wet too long and pH is too low).


The bone meal will supply phosphorus, which promotes flowers,
roots,
and new bulbs. The sulfur will be slowly converted into
sulfuric
acid, which will act as a fungicide.

that sounds about like what i was looking for in terms of
the dusting powder. thanks for your reply,


songbird

On 6/9/10 10:18 AM, songbird wrote:
David E. Ross wrote:
songbird wrote:

hello all,

i'm trying to rescue a few tulip beds and
will be redoing them from scratch this year,
the bulbs that are already there i would like
to lift and store, but i haven't done much
with actually storing them before (i usually
plant them and leave them in the ground).
...
I don't think lime water is effective as a fungicide. If you
really
had a fungus and not a virus, I would use sulfur.

whups i forgot to mention i'm Zone 5b here (mid
michigan USA). we get some cold snaps in the
winter but rarely below -15F.



and definitely fungus.

some reading has mentioned soaking the bulbs in
a fungicidal solution of some kind, but they have not
mentioned what they used...


Buy some DUSTING sulfur. Don't get granular soil sulfur. Make
sure
it is dust, which can still be used in the soil. Sulfur is a
natural
element, not something manufactured.

right, gotcha there.


Wait until all foliage dies and the bulbs go dormant. Dig them
up and
discard any that are already infected.

if they look sound and healthy i would like to try
keeping them all. i'm not talking about bulb rot
type of fungus (those i would discard). i haven't
had troubles with bulb rot this year that i can tell
(amazing considering how wet it has been).


Put the remaining bulbs -- a few at a time -- in a paper or
plastic
bag with a generous amount of dusting sulfur. Gently shake the
bag to
ensure each bulb is well coated with sulfur.

can i find this at a farmer/grain elevator type place?

You might find it there, but you might have to buy in bulk. I buy only
5-10 lbb at a time. Unlike plants, which I buy only at nurseries, I
sometimes buy sulfur and other supplies at a lumber yard or hardware
store. But any comprehensive nursery should have sulfur.



If you live in a cold-winter climate suitable for tulips,
replant them
immediately. Don't bother storing them. If you live in a
mild-winter
climate, store them in a cool, dark place in slightly moist
peat moss,
which inhibits fungus; then refrigerate them in the vegetable
bin for
about 6-8 weeks just before planting.

cold winter, but too wet in the summer, and i can't
replant them immediately as i'm redoing their gardens
so they need to be out of the way for a bit. in the
past i have replanted immediately and they seem to
do ok, but i think some species like it drier than what
we get. so a few months out of the ground would
do that for sure.

Then store as I indicated for mild-winter areas. Just make sure the
peat moss is slightly damp, not wet.


Whenever you replant them, stir a handful of bone meal into the
bottom
of the planting hole. Stir a half-handful of sulfur into the
rest of
the soil from the hole. Place about an inch of the sulfured
soil
above the bone meal area so that the bulb does not directly
touch the
fertilizer. Plant.

hm, i've avoided bone-meal for quite a while now because of
the disease problems (prion, brain sponge good bye memories).
however, i've been happy with a small layer of sharp sand in
between the bulb and the mixture below.

the mixture below i'm planning on using sharp sand and
some composted cow manure (perhaps 75/25 mix), but
avoiding peat moss entirely as it holds water and i don't
need any water retention. (the whole idea of raising the
beds and redoing them is to get things dryer). in the past
i'd used a mix of sand, clay and peat moss, but that has
turned out poorly (too wet too long and pH is too low).

Sand won't provide phosphorus. Unless you plan to eat the tulips, I
would not worry about mad cow disease. However, you can substitute same
amount of superphosphate for the bone meal. A single dose of either
before planting -- where the roots will find it -- should last several
years. By the way, the handful is per bulb.

Topping the layer of soil that has the bone meal or superphosphate with
some sand is a good alternative to using the sulfured soil. However,
there should be at least a small amount of sulfured soil underneath the
bulbs; they should be completely surrounded with sulfured soil to
prevent fungus. If you soil is already somewhat acidic, use a
quarter-handful per bulb instead of a half-handful. Acidic soil tends
to discourage fungus.

If the soil is retaining too much water, omit adding any clay. Top your
beds with gypsum (powdered soil gypsum, not decorative gypsum rock) and
let the summer rains rinse it into the soil. This will improve drainage.


The bone meal will supply phosphorus, which promotes flowers,
roots,
and new bulbs. The sulfur will be slowly converted into
sulfuric
acid, which will act as a fungicide.

that sounds about like what i was looking for in terms of
the dusting powder. thanks for your reply,


songbird



--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

songbird wrote:
David E. Ross wrote:



Put the remaining bulbs -- a few at a time -- in a paper or plastic
bag with a generous amount of dusting sulfur. Gently shake the bag to
ensure each bulb is well coated with sulfur.

can i find this at a farmer/grain elevator type place?


Any garden center - even the chains - should have it - it's a "basic
basic" gardening product.

Tony M.

David E. Ross wrote:
songbird wrote:
David E. Ross wrote:
....
Put the remaining bulbs -- a few at a time -- in a paper or
plastic
bag with a generous amount of dusting sulfur. Gently shake
the
bag to
ensure each bulb is well coated with sulfur.

can i find this at a farmer/grain elevator type place?

You might find it there, but you might have to buy in bulk. I
buy
only 5-10 lbb at a time. Unlike plants, which I buy only at
nurseries, I sometimes buy sulfur and other supplies at a
lumber yard
or hardware store. But any comprehensive nursery should have
sulfur.

i'll see what i can find. thanks.


If you live in a cold-winter climate suitable for tulips,
replant them
immediately. Don't bother storing them. If you live in a
mild-winter
climate, store them in a cool, dark place in slightly moist
peat moss,
which inhibits fungus; then refrigerate them in the vegetable
bin for
about 6-8 weeks just before planting.

cold winter, but too wet in the summer, and i can't
replant them immediately as i'm redoing their gardens
so they need to be out of the way for a bit. in the
past i have replanted immediately and they seem to
do ok, but i think some species like it drier than what
we get. so a few months out of the ground would
do that for sure.

Then store as I indicated for mild-winter areas. Just make
sure the
peat moss is slightly damp, not wet.

some reading i've been doing is recommending very dry
and hot for some varieties, so i would not use this as a
blanket recommendation.


Whenever you replant them, stir a handful of bone meal into
the
bottom
of the planting hole. Stir a half-handful of sulfur into the
rest of
the soil from the hole. Place about an inch of the sulfured
soil
above the bone meal area so that the bulb does not directly
touch the
fertilizer. Plant.

hm, i've avoided bone-meal for quite a while now because of
the disease problems (prion, brain sponge good bye memories).
however, i've been happy with a small layer of sharp sand in
between the bulb and the mixture below.

the mixture below i'm planning on using sharp sand and
some composted cow manure (perhaps 75/25 mix), but
avoiding peat moss entirely as it holds water and i don't
need any water retention. (the whole idea of raising the
beds and redoing them is to get things dryer). in the past
i'd used a mix of sand, clay and peat moss, but that has
turned out poorly (too wet too long and pH is too low).

Sand won't provide phosphorus. Unless you plan to eat the
tulips, I
would not worry about mad cow disease. However, you can
substitute
same amount of superphosphate for the bone meal. A single dose
of
either before planting -- where the roots will find it --
should last
several years. By the way, the handful is per bulb.

ok, i'll look into using that for the perennial tulips i plan
to leave in.

bone meal isn't a hazard if you don't have to handle it
at all, but i don't want even a whiff of the dust so i'll
avoid it completely. i'm not even sure i can get it
locally very easily at all (i don't see it in the stores).


Topping the layer of soil that has the bone meal or
superphosphate
with some sand is a good alternative to using the sulfured
soil.
However, there should be at least a small amount of sulfured
soil
underneath the bulbs; they should be completely surrounded with
sulfured soil to prevent fungus.

ok, i'll give it a shot and see what happens. actually,
i am likely to do several versions and compare
results now that i'm redoing anyways. this sort of
thing appeals to the tinkerer/scientist in me and
i'm finally getting a chance to do it the way i'd like.

i get big management brownie points if i use the
words "decorative, rocks, pebbles, and beach
stones".


If you soil is already somewhat
acidic, use a quarter-handful per bulb instead of a
half-handful.
Acidic soil tends to discourage fungus.

my mix for one bed was about a third peat, a third clay and
a third sand. the texture is wonderful to weed (compared to
full clay anything but cement is wonderful to weed ). we had
so much rain this year and the weather was perfect for fungus
early. i didn't notice it right away.

the other bed has been going for several years now
and is due for replacement. i have bulbs popping out the
surface. i'll do both at once since they are in the same
area and use the chance to reshape and redo the
surrounding pathways. all these have been on my list
to do for a few years now so it's about time.


If the soil is retaining too much water, omit adding any clay.
Top
your beds with gypsum (powdered soil gypsum, not decorative
gypsum
rock) and let the summer rains rinse it into the soil. This
will
improve drainage.

i was reading about gypsum, but wasn't sure i'd need any
at all if i raised the bed above grade and used plenty of
sharp sand along with the drain tubes... i'm probably
going to have to add some other kind of soil lightener
(perlite perhaps) because i don't want to go back to
peat moss again. what i have left i'm probably going to
turn into fake tufa stone with plenty of hollow spots for
bulbs... (with drain holes ).

we'll see what gets done.

thanks again,


songbird

Tony wrote:
songbird wrote:
David E. Ross wrote:
....
Put the remaining bulbs -- a few at a time -- in a paper or
plastic
bag with a generous amount of dusting sulfur. Gently shake
the bag
to ensure each bulb is well coated with sulfur.

can i find this at a farmer/grain elevator type place?


Any garden center - even the chains - should have it - it's a
"basic
basic" gardening product.

i drew a big blank last time i looked around for
various chemicals/amendments. all the chains
have topsoil, garden soil, mulch, fertilizer, weed
killers, and insecticides up the wazoo. simple
chemicals seem to be scarce... i'm not much of
a shopper... i will practice some more tomorrow.

thanks,


songbird

In article ,
"songbird" wrote:

David E. Ross wrote:
songbird wrote:
David E. Ross wrote:
...
Put the remaining bulbs -- a few at a time -- in a paper or
plastic
bag with a generous amount of dusting sulfur. Gently shake
the
bag to
ensure each bulb is well coated with sulfur.

can i find this at a farmer/grain elevator type place?

You might find it there, but you might have to buy in bulk. I
buy
only 5-10 lbb at a time. Unlike plants, which I buy only at
nurseries, I sometimes buy sulfur and other supplies at a
lumber yard
or hardware store. But any comprehensive nursery should have
sulfur.

i'll see what i can find. thanks.


If you live in a cold-winter climate suitable for tulips,
replant them
immediately. Don't bother storing them. If you live in a
mild-winter
climate, store them in a cool, dark place in slightly moist
peat moss,
which inhibits fungus; then refrigerate them in the vegetable
bin for
about 6-8 weeks just before planting.

cold winter, but too wet in the summer, and i can't
replant them immediately as i'm redoing their gardens
so they need to be out of the way for a bit. in the
past i have replanted immediately and they seem to
do ok, but i think some species like it drier than what
we get. so a few months out of the ground would
do that for sure.

Then store as I indicated for mild-winter areas. Just make
sure the
peat moss is slightly damp, not wet.

some reading i've been doing is recommending very dry
and hot for some varieties, so i would not use this as a
blanket recommendation.


Whenever you replant them, stir a handful of bone meal into
the
bottom
of the planting hole. Stir a half-handful of sulfur into the
rest of
the soil from the hole. Place about an inch of the sulfured
soil
above the bone meal area so that the bulb does not directly
touch the
fertilizer. Plant.

hm, i've avoided bone-meal for quite a while now because of
the disease problems (prion, brain sponge good bye memories).
however, i've been happy with a small layer of sharp sand in
between the bulb and the mixture below.

the mixture below i'm planning on using sharp sand and
some composted cow manure (perhaps 75/25 mix), but
avoiding peat moss entirely as it holds water and i don't
need any water retention. (the whole idea of raising the
beds and redoing them is to get things dryer). in the past
i'd used a mix of sand, clay and peat moss, but that has
turned out poorly (too wet too long and pH is too low).

Sand won't provide phosphorus. Unless you plan to eat the
tulips, I
would not worry about mad cow disease. However, you can
substitute
same amount of superphosphate for the bone meal. A single dose
of
either before planting -- where the roots will find it --
should last
several years. By the way, the handful is per bulb.

ok, i'll look into using that for the perennial tulips i plan
to leave in.

bone meal isn't a hazard if you don't have to handle it
at all, but i don't want even a whiff of the dust so i'll
avoid it completely. i'm not even sure i can get it
locally very easily at all (i don't see it in the stores).


Topping the layer of soil that has the bone meal or
superphosphate
with some sand is a good alternative to using the sulfured
soil.
However, there should be at least a small amount of sulfured
soil
underneath the bulbs; they should be completely surrounded with
sulfured soil to prevent fungus.

ok, i'll give it a shot and see what happens. actually,
i am likely to do several versions and compare
results now that i'm redoing anyways. this sort of
thing appeals to the tinkerer/scientist in me and
i'm finally getting a chance to do it the way i'd like.

i get big management brownie points if i use the
words "decorative, rocks, pebbles, and beach
stones".


If you soil is already somewhat
acidic, use a quarter-handful per bulb instead of a
half-handful.
Acidic soil tends to discourage fungus.

my mix for one bed was about a third peat, a third clay and
a third sand. the texture is wonderful to weed (compared to
full clay anything but cement is wonderful to weed ). we had
so much rain this year and the weather was perfect for fungus
early. i didn't notice it right away.

the other bed has been going for several years now
and is due for replacement. i have bulbs popping out the
surface. i'll do both at once since they are in the same
area and use the chance to reshape and redo the
surrounding pathways. all these have been on my list
to do for a few years now so it's about time.


If the soil is retaining too much water, omit adding any clay.
Top
your beds with gypsum (powdered soil gypsum, not decorative
gypsum
rock) and let the summer rains rinse it into the soil. This
will
improve drainage.

i was reading about gypsum, but wasn't sure i'd need any
at all if i raised the bed above grade and used plenty of
sharp sand along with the drain tubes... i'm probably
going to have to add some other kind of soil lightener
(perlite perhaps) because i don't want to go back to
peat moss again. what i have left i'm probably going to
turn into fake tufa stone with plenty of hollow spots for
bulbs... (with drain holes ).

we'll see what gets done.

thanks again,


songbird

Towards the end of your season, try planting buckwheat or rye as a cover
crop. They will lighten your soil considerably by introducing large
quantities of fine roots into it.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Billy wrote:
....
Towards the end of your season, try planting buckwheat or rye
as a
cover crop. They will lighten your soil considerably by
introducing
large quantities of fine roots into it.

i've, coincidentally, just gotten a few
buckwheat seeds to see what kind of
plant they are, and a much larger amount
of birdsfoot trefoil seeds to spread on
a few areas i've been spading.

we'd planted alfalfa in the general
area to improve the soil and to break
through the hardpacked clay layer but
it didn't get enough color to be left wild
like i would have done. now it is being
mowed. the trefoil eventually will fill in
and improve things on a smaller scale.

the tulib beds i am redoing (the cause
of my initial post in this thread) will be
getting completely new soil and i am
going to try various mixes both
below and above the bulbs and various
toppings to see what does the best
(and taking notes).

my friendly greenhouse guy says
my plans sound good for what i'm
trying to accomplish. but i forgot
to ask him about my other question
that i haven't had answered yet (
about what liquid i can dunk the
existing bulbs in to drench them
before they get air dried and put
into storage). i'll stop in again today
on my way past and see what he says.


songbird

In article ,
"songbird" wrote:

Billy wrote:
...
Towards the end of your season, try planting buckwheat or rye
as a
cover crop. They will lighten your soil considerably by
introducing
large quantities of fine roots into it.

i've, coincidentally, just gotten a few
buckwheat seeds to see what kind of
plant they are, and a much larger amount
of birdsfoot trefoil seeds to spread on
a few areas i've been spading.

we'd planted alfalfa in the general
area to improve the soil and to break
through the hardpacked clay layer but
it didn't get enough color to be left wild
like i would have done. now it is being
mowed. the trefoil eventually will fill in
and improve things on a smaller scale.

Rye and buckwheat aren't going to pass as ornamentals. They function
very well, though, in breaking up clay into a soil that is more workable.
At this point you could add your amendments (including sand to 30-40%,
organic material to 5-10%). Once your amendments are in, you may wish to
change to growing green manure, and avoid the cost of bagged animal
manure altogether.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
...
Towards the end of your season, try planting buckwheat or rye
as a
cover crop. They will lighten your soil considerably by
introducing
large quantities of fine roots into it.

i've, coincidentally, just gotten a few
buckwheat seeds to see what kind of
plant they are, and a much larger amount
of birdsfoot trefoil seeds to spread on
a few areas i've been spading.

we'd planted alfalfa in the general
area to improve the soil and to break
through the hardpacked clay layer but
it didn't get enough color to be left wild
like i would have done. now it is being
mowed. the trefoil eventually will fill in
and improve things on a smaller scale.

Rye and buckwheat aren't going to pass as ornamentals. They
function
very well, though, in breaking up clay into a soil that is more
workable. At this point you could add your amendments
(including sand
to 30-40%, organic material to 5-10%). Once your amendments are
in,
you may wish to change to growing green manure, and avoid the
cost of
bagged animal manure altogether.

i'm not planning any amendments for that
area at present (other than filling in the bare
spots with the trefoil). if we do a more
formal garden there it will be next year
or later... amendments at that time depending
upon what type of garden goes there. if it
more rocks and decorations then i won't
amend or mess with it at all beyond making
sure it is properly planned for water flow
and that there is some sort of good
layers of weed barrier and stone down.

behind this area is a planting of flax that
looks nice when i keep it clear of grasses
and daisies, but i didn't weed that this
spring -- it looked less tidy and full than
it did the year before. still a nice backdrop.
.... and now it is getting some milkweed
going through it and along the NE corner
some butterfly weed seeds took that i
scattered in there last year (which
will be flowering soon ). it's on my list
for this coming week to get some of
the daisies out of there (we have plenty
already thanks) and to take care of the
grasses before the seeds drop.

i'm in love!


songbird

In article ,
"songbird" wrote:

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
...
Towards the end of your season, try planting buckwheat or rye
as a
cover crop. They will lighten your soil considerably by
introducing
large quantities of fine roots into it.

i've, coincidentally, just gotten a few
buckwheat seeds to see what kind of
plant they are, and a much larger amount
of birdsfoot trefoil seeds to spread on
a few areas i've been spading.

we'd planted alfalfa in the general
area to improve the soil and to break
through the hardpacked clay layer but
it didn't get enough color to be left wild
like i would have done. now it is being
mowed. the trefoil eventually will fill in
and improve things on a smaller scale.

Rye and buckwheat aren't going to pass as ornamentals. They
function
very well, though, in breaking up clay into a soil that is more
workable. At this point you could add your amendments
(including sand
to 30-40%, organic material to 5-10%). Once your amendments are
in,
you may wish to change to growing green manure, and avoid the
cost of
bagged animal manure altogether.

i'm not planning any amendments for that
area at present (other than filling in the bare
spots with the trefoil). if we do a more
formal garden there it will be next year
or later... amendments at that time depending
upon what type of garden goes there. if it
more rocks and decorations then i won't
amend or mess with it at all beyond making
sure it is properly planned for water flow
and that there is some sort of good
layers of weed barrier and stone down.

behind this area is a planting of flax that
looks nice when i keep it clear of grasses
and daisies, but i didn't weed that this
spring -- it looked less tidy and full than
it did the year before. still a nice backdrop.
... and now it is getting some milkweed
going through it and along the NE corner
some butterfly weed seeds took that i
scattered in there last year (which
will be flowering soon ). it's on my list
for this coming week to get some of
the daisies out of there (we have plenty
already thanks) and to take care of the
grasses before the seeds drop.

i'm in love!


songbird

Maybe so, but there's still weeding to be done;O)
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html