Billy wrote:
In article ,
Nad R wrote:

Tilling is a good way in my book for first time ground prepping. After that
no more tilling is needed ever. Be it for new lawn or garden.

"Double digging" is certainly to be recommended for a new garden, as it
speeds up the development of the bed, but it isn't necessary otherwise.
Rototillers create a hardpan, a layer of compacted soil, at the bottom
of the tilled zone. This may be acceptable for lawns, but for gardens it
is advised to break up this compacted zone. Insert a broad fork or
digging fork deeply into the soil at 6 inch intervals to break up any
compaction and to allow air and water below the depth of tillage.
Breaking this up with a fork permits the roots of plants to grow deeper
than the tilled area, and also allows plants to find water and nutrients
deep in the soil. Loosening allows for better percolation of rain water
and irrigation.

You are correct, rototiling does create a hardpan layer. For a lawn it may
not make much of a difference since grass only goes about 3 inches down.
For a garden soil a foot is better. If your soil is already compacted and
hard as a rock tilling is going to be better that a shovel by hand and risk
a heart attack. Double digging is the best way for small gardens. If your
garden is large or soil already compacted, rototilling can make life
easier. If the first six inches is broken up, one could the take a garden
fork and poke holes in the bottom of the hardpan layer.

If the soil is already compacted, worms are not like to be around to begin
with. When the soil becomes looser the worms may come around more.

--
Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

Nad R wrote:
Tilling is a good way in my book for first time ground prepping.
After that no more tilling is needed ever. Be it for new lawn or
garden.

I agree breaking ground is the only time I have ever used motorised
equipment or dug more than 10cm down, normally I rake in manures etc once or
twice a year. I just don't see the need for all this digging.

I have no idea what is achieved by frequent tilling, I suppose it gives a
feeling of neatness and uniformity to see all that fluffy soil so regularly
disturbed. In a garden you will grow much more for your efforts if you
spend less time on neatness and uniformity.

David

Gunner wrote:
On Apr 25, 10:33 am, Billy wrote:

Rototillers create a hardpan, a layer of compacted soil, at the
bottom of the tilled zone.

...leastwise that is what ya read in your eco-fringy blogs right?

No that's what the local agronomist tells me can happen in some
circumstances. Sustainable and traditional (for want of a better word)
garden management practices are not all eco-fringy there is good reason and
sound science behind much of it, there is also some like moon planting and
biodynamics that is well meaning nonsense.

David

On Apr 25, 4:48*pm, "David Hare-Scott" wrote:
Gunner wrote:
On Apr 25, 10:33 am, Billy wrote:

Rototillers create a hardpan, a layer of compacted soil, at the
bottom of the tilled zone.

...leastwise that is what ya read in your eco-fringy blogs right?

No that's what the local agronomist tells me can happen in some
circumstances. *Sustainable and traditional (for want of a better word)
garden management practices are not all eco-fringy there is good reason and
sound science behind much of it, there is also some like moon planting and
biodynamics that is well meaning nonsense.

David

My point again, David.... CAN, MAY, PERHAPS, COULD, MIGHT ....all
the rest of the weasel words for all those many instances when ...
may, can, might, should, maybe, kinda, perhaps... don't work.

Take a step back and read what you and dyslectic dan write here, your
preaching teaching. Then you express such surprise, positively
miffed, by the fact that you do not SEE the need for such work.

" the local agronomist tells me can happen in some
circumstances……."

Well, then it must be true, right? ….Have your agronomist call my
agronomist and they can discuss why there maybe, perhaps, could,
possibly be a difference of opinion as to what is sustainable and
traditional or as we like to say, BEST PRACTICE…I assume your local
guy/gal knows all about soil horizons and how each of us garden? For
me, I want some OM mixed into my B horizon if that is alright with
you. Its good for MY soil, and I don’t have this problem of a roto
induced plow sole you boys keep telling me definitely will maybe
happen.

On Apr 25, 4:34*pm, Nad R wrote:

You are correct, rototiling does create a hardpan layer.....

Then you didn't do it right.

On Apr 25, 4:39*pm, "David Hare-Scott" wrote:


I have no idea what is achieved by frequent tilling...

and yet you will tell us?

Gunner wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:48 pm, "David Hare-Scott" wrote:
Gunner wrote:
On Apr 25, 10:33 am, Billy wrote:

Rototillers create a hardpan, a layer of compacted soil, at the
bottom of the tilled zone.

...leastwise that is what ya read in your eco-fringy blogs right?

No that's what the local agronomist tells me can happen in some
circumstances. Sustainable and traditional (for want of a better
word) garden management practices are not all eco-fringy there is
good reason and sound science behind much of it, there is also some
like moon planting and biodynamics that is well meaning nonsense.

David

My point again, David.... CAN, MAY, PERHAPS, COULD, MIGHT ....all
the rest of the weasel words for all those many instances when ...
may, can, might, should, maybe, kinda, perhaps... don't work.

So you are looking for certainty, for some Truth that you can always apply
without exception. I wonder if you are any kind of gardner at all with that
attitude. Why does this have to be treated like a religion? Both you are
Billy are missing the point that gardening is complex and different
approaches work in different situations, getting dogmatic and calling names
gets neither of you anywhere in my estimation you are both just blowing hot
air.


Take a step back and read what you and dyslectic dan write here, your
preaching teaching. Then you express such surprise, positively
miffed, by the fact that you do not SEE the need for such work.

I do not see the need because I haven't had a garden yet where it was
necessary.


" the local agronomist tells me can happen in some
circumstances……."

Well, then it must be true, right? ….

I mention the agronomist because of your snarky "eco-fringy" comment, this
is an agricultural problem that is very much mainstream. It has been
observed and documented, it is not imaginary. That doesn't mean it happens
in all cases. If you want something that is invariably true take up
mathematics.

Have your agronomist call my
agronomist and they can discuss why there maybe, perhaps, could,
possibly be a difference of opinion as to what is sustainable and
traditional or as we like to say, BEST PRACTICE…I assume your local
guy/gal knows all about soil horizons and how each of us garden? For
me, I want some OM mixed into my B horizon if that is alright with
you. Its good for MY soil, and I don’t have this problem of a roto
induced plow sole you boys keep telling me definitely will maybe
happen.


You are now confirming what I said that the problem varies with
circumstance. Why do you have to be so argumentative to get to that? If
you want to talk about substance please reply if you want to continue a
religious battle with Billy and others I won't be reading.

David

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Gunner wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:48 pm, "David Hare-Scott" wrote:
Gunner wrote:
On Apr 25, 10:33 am, Billy wrote:

Rototillers create a hardpan, a layer of compacted soil, at the
bottom of the tilled zone.

...leastwise that is what ya read in your eco-fringy blogs right?

No that's what the local agronomist tells me can happen in some
circumstances. Sustainable and traditional (for want of a better
word) garden management practices are not all eco-fringy there is
good reason and sound science behind much of it, there is also some
like moon planting and biodynamics that is well meaning nonsense.

David

My point again, David.... CAN, MAY, PERHAPS, COULD, MIGHT ....all
the rest of the weasel words for all those many instances when ...
may, can, might, should, maybe, kinda, perhaps... don't work.

So you are looking for certainty, for some Truth that you can always apply
without exception. I wonder if you are any kind of gardner at all with that
attitude. Why does this have to be treated like a religion? Both you are
Billy are missing the point that gardening is complex and different
approaches work in different situations, getting dogmatic and calling names
gets neither of you anywhere in my estimation you are both just blowing hot
air.

Mr. Hare-Scott, where in this thread did I blow hot air?? I twice
referenced, with sources, hard pan resulting from rototilling. Where in
this thread did I miss the point that gardening is complex and different
approaches work in different situations? I'm far from calling Gunny
names, because my life became simpler when I KF'd him. I suggest that in
the future you save your B.S. for your garden.

I'm not responsible for your, or Gunny's "gruntelment". Please, make an
effort to get it right next time, or take your poison somewhere else.


Take a step back and read what you and dyslectic dan write here, your
preaching teaching. Then you express such surprise, positively
miffed, by the fact that you do not SEE the need for such work.

I do not see the need because I haven't had a garden yet where it was
necessary.


" the local agronomist tells me can happen in some
circumstancesŠŠ."

Well, then it must be true, right? Š.

I mention the agronomist because of your snarky "eco-fringy" comment, this
is an agricultural problem that is very much mainstream. It has been
observed and documented, it is not imaginary. That doesn't mean it happens
in all cases. If you want something that is invariably true take up
mathematics.

Have your agronomist call my
agronomist and they can discuss why there maybe, perhaps, could,
possibly be a difference of opinion as to what is sustainable and
traditional or as we like to say, BEST PRACTICEŠI assume your local
guy/gal knows all about soil horizons and how each of us garden? For
me, I want some OM mixed into my B horizon if that is alright with
you. Its good for MY soil, and I don¹t have this problem of a roto
induced plow sole you boys keep telling me definitely will maybe
happen.


You are now confirming what I said that the problem varies with
circumstance. Why do you have to be so argumentative to get to that? If
you want to talk about substance please reply if you want to continue a
religious battle with Billy and others I won't be reading.

David

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://theuptake.org/2011/03/05/mich...wisconsin-is-b
roke/
--
- Billy

Dept. of Defense budget: $663.8 billion
Dept. of Health and Human Services budget: $78.4 billion


Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower, 16 April 1953

Not looking for certainty, David, just honesty. Lords knows we don't
want that evil rototiller to compact the little bit of dirt we have
left in our gardens, especially after we used all those evil
"chemfarts" and chemicals to make it look so pretty, now do we?

this is an agricultural problem that is very much mainstream.

Put the anecdotal voodoo science in billys cut and paste amazon eco
book of the week club aside for a moment. What is this "mainstream"
agricultural problem we need to avoid in our garden?
Rototilling?????? or is it the preception you WILL get Plow Sole?
really???? a mechanically induced hardpan will might happen under
certain conditions in my garden? Piling up a bunch of wet newspaper on
top of my clay soil is going to do just that.


.....are missing the point that gardening is complex and different
approaches work in different situations.

No, David, that is my point. There is NO ONE single method and to
that point, to demonize rototilling with such BS is intellectual
dishonesty.

I have no problem with anyone laying paper all over their property ,
but don't be "citationing" some very misleading anecdotal eco fringy
bullshit saying rototillers WILL cause hardpan and the seven plaques
of Egypt . Its the fool behind the tool.... or the keyboard in the
case of the OP and his posse.

Gunner wrote:

.....are missing the point that gardening is complex and different
approaches work in different situations.

No, David, that is my point. There is NO ONE single method and to
that point, to demonize rototilling with such BS is intellectual
dishonesty.

It is not dishonesty. Politics is in every subject on the planet. Their are
left wing people against nuclear power and right wing for nuclear power and
some in the middle. As in Gardening the Left Wing wants to be natural,
which is best for the planet. The right wing wants connivence and practical
but may not be what is best for the planet in the long run.

I find each person here is true to themselves and in my book diversity is a
good thing over conformity. One side can be wrong, if their is a balance in
society there is a good chance of survival. If one side grabs too much, I
could be very good or more than likely very bad. It is good to have
different views.

I am left to center and I suspect Gunner is left to right. Billy is far
left which is fine, the world needs a standard bearer for that view. Just
like Monsanto is the standard bearer of the far right. Since I am left to
center I will place Monsanto on the dark side. Billy to me is like the
priest and I am the occasional sinner of gardening.

Gardening in my book Gardening is an ART, not a science and views can
differ greatly.

--
Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

In article ,
Nad R wrote:

Gunner wrote:

.....are missing the point that gardening is complex and different
approaches work in different situations.

No, David, that is my point. There is NO ONE single method and to
that point, to demonize rototilling with such BS is intellectual
dishonesty.

It is not dishonesty. Politics is in every subject on the planet. Their are
left wing people against nuclear power and right wing for nuclear power and
some in the middle. As in Gardening the Left Wing wants to be natural,
which is best for the planet. The right wing wants connivence and practical
but may not be what is best for the planet in the long run.

I find each person here is true to themselves and in my book diversity is a
good thing over conformity. One side can be wrong, if their is a balance in
society there is a good chance of survival. If one side grabs too much, I
could be very good or more than likely very bad. It is good to have
different views.

I am left to center and I suspect Gunner is left to right. Billy is far
left which is fine, the world needs a standard bearer for that view. Just
like Monsanto is the standard bearer of the far right. Since I am left to
center I will place Monsanto on the dark side. Billy to me is like the
priest and I am the occasional sinner of gardening.

Gardening in my book Gardening is an ART, not a science and views can
differ greatly.

William Blake wrote about 1810. "No progress without contraries."

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

"The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow." - Anon

http://www.earthknowledge.net/map/

Billy wrote:

....

i've had mixed results with
rototilling.

the most recent round was last summer
when i killed off an invasive plant
species and then leveled a large area
(to eliminate a gully that was forming).

the tilling did help break the soil up
making raking and leveling a much easier
task. it also provided a nice fluffy
seedbed for the spiral design i planted
(too fluffy, i should have firmed it up
a bit before seeding it in).

8 months later... the seedlings have
crowns 3-5cm above the soil. i'm not
sure how the deer and bunnies will crop
them, but i'm hoping not too low. and
i'm also wondering how they will do if
we get a cold snap without snow cover.
if that will freeze-dry the crowns and
force them to start over from below.

last winter we had good snow cover and
i didn't lose much of anything. we'll
see how the next winter goes.

the major negative from the tilling
was the spread of a different invasive
plant species seeds through the area.
i now have about 20-30 more hours of hand
weeding to get it out and then consistent
weeding to keep it out (probably for a
few years before it will be gone).
luckily i've done this before for this
species so i know it can be done. i won't
resort to spraying again. most of the
seedlings are still alive under the
smothering growth, they just aren't going
to perform as well as i'd like until i
free them up.

the 9 hours of weeding i've already done
is looking nice as the rains have perked
the seedlings up. now a few more days of
sunshine to dry things out so i can finish
the rest. the plants need to get some
more growth on to be self-shading before
the hot and dryer period starts up.

the clay is about as compacted as it
was before i tilled. tilling didn't
accomplish much there. once the worms
finished up all the rotted organic
material from before i'm not seeing much
activity, except in the pathway where
i'm piling the weeds.

the next big project is to terrace the
red patch, i'm turning it into a mixed
garden. i won't till it because it has
hundreds of perennials already that i want
to leave in place as much as possible.
i hope i can start that tomorrow or the
next day. even if i can only get the
top few levels done that would be a big
help and a nice start.

i can't think of any other gardens
i would have to till. the biggest garden
i normally spade wouldn't do as well if i
tilled. i need the larger clumps of soil
to pile up for a long mound i make to
plant the cosmos on. it being a low spot
i use the trench to catch water and the
mound to keep the cosmos high, dry and
the roots happy. if it were tilled the
soil would run down faster and the cosmos
would fall over in the wind.

my other previous uses of tilling has
been mostly to mix amendments. for larger
areas now i've just mixed it by hoe in
the wheelbarrow and then spread it out.
for smaller already established gardens
i don't do that any more. if something
needs to be added, i put it in the mulch
and the worms, rain and gravity do their
thing to incorporate it. peaceful that
way...


songbird

Gunner wrote:
Not looking for certainty, David, just honesty. Lords knows we don't
want that evil rototiller to compact the little bit of dirt we have
left in our gardens, especially after we used all those evil
"chemfarts" and chemicals to make it look so pretty, now do we?

this is an agricultural problem that is very much mainstream.

Put the anecdotal voodoo science in billys cut and paste amazon eco
book of the week club aside for a moment. What is this "mainstream"
agricultural problem we need to avoid in our garden?
Rototilling?????? or is it the preception you WILL get Plow Sole?
really???? a mechanically induced hardpan will might happen under
certain conditions in my garden? Piling up a bunch of wet newspaper on
top of my clay soil is going to do just that.


.....are missing the point that gardening is complex and different
approaches work in different situations.

No, David, that is my point. There is NO ONE single method and to
that point, to demonize rototilling with such BS is intellectual
dishonesty.

I have no problem with anyone laying paper all over their property ,
but don't be "citationing" some very misleading anecdotal eco fringy
bullshit saying rototillers WILL cause hardpan and the seven plaques
of Egypt . Its the fool behind the tool.... or the keyboard in the
case of the OP and his posse.

So you spend another post the same as the last one saying that you agree
with me. Weird.

You are Billy should both get over your evangelism.

D

Billy wrote:
In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Gunner wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:48 pm, "David Hare-Scott" wrote:
Gunner wrote:
On Apr 25, 10:33 am, Billy wrote:

Rototillers create a hardpan, a layer of compacted soil, at the
bottom of the tilled zone.

...leastwise that is what ya read in your eco-fringy blogs right?

No that's what the local agronomist tells me can happen in some
circumstances. Sustainable and traditional (for want of a better
word) garden management practices are not all eco-fringy there is
good reason and sound science behind much of it, there is also some
like moon planting and biodynamics that is well meaning nonsense.

David

My point again, David.... CAN, MAY, PERHAPS, COULD, MIGHT ....all
the rest of the weasel words for all those many instances when ...
may, can, might, should, maybe, kinda, perhaps... don't work.

So you are looking for certainty, for some Truth that you can always
apply without exception. I wonder if you are any kind of gardner at
all with that attitude. Why does this have to be treated like a
religion? Both you are Billy are missing the point that gardening
is complex and different approaches work in different situations,
getting dogmatic and calling names gets neither of you anywhere in
my estimation you are both just blowing hot air.

Mr. Hare-Scott, where in this thread did I blow hot air?? I twice
referenced, with sources, hard pan resulting from rototilling. Where
in this thread did I miss the point that gardening is complex and
different approaches work in different situations? I'm far from
calling Gunny names, because my life became simpler when I KF'd him.
I suggest that in the future you save your B.S. for your garden.


You both should get over your evangelism.

D

On Apr 27, 3:48*pm, "David Hare-Scott" wrote:
Gunner wrote:


Yes David.... I agree with you that saying rototillers WILL cause
hardpan is a lie.

Is that easier to understand