http://www.denverpost.com/rss/ci_18302226?source=rss
Taking gardening to new heights

"Aviad's rooftop garden serves not just as our apartment's source of
herbs and produce, but also as a gathering place to have a beer, watch
the sunset and talk about our lives," neighbor David Pflaum says. "This
man has single- handedly educated us about the possibilities of urban
gardening while simultaneously bringing together a diverse group of
tenants that might otherwise not ever socialize beyond the simple
mailroom pleasantries."

But gardening in the heights adds a complicated set of issues for the
home grower to consider: Load. Weight. Drainage. Wind. Evaporation.
Anyone pondering a do-it- yourself rooftop garden needs professional
advice, says Ed Maurer, an associate professor of civil engineering at
Santa Clara University.

"You must contact an expert on roofs ‹ either a roof contractor or an
engineer ‹ who can tell you if your roof is safe. The expert can also
tell you exactly what kind of load it can handle," Maurer says. "If you
don't know what you are doing and are exceeding the load of the roof,
you might be left with extremely costly and dangerous roof damage."
Also, Maurer says: "Make sure you spend a lot of time and effort
waterproofing between the bottom of your garden and the roof material,
or else you will have a leaky roof on your hands."
--
- Billy
Both the House and Senate budget plan would cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy.

Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for
elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans
"appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of
waste, fraud and abuse."
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re
p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/


[W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And it¹s not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. That¹s hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they don¹t get away with no taxation.
- Ralph Nader
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis

Billy wrote:

....about rooftop gardens...

check out a radio show called _The Story_ out of one
of the Carolina state public radio stations. they did
an excellent show on a rooftop garden in NYC a bit ago.


Denver,

i wonder if they have a graywater recycling system
from the building plumbing available?


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

i wonder if they have a graywater recycling system
from the building plumbing available?


songbird

It sounds like they shunt all the gray water to one line that can be
switched to the garden, or the sewer.

Was that the question?
--
- Billy
Both the House and Senate budget plan would cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy.

Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for
elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans
"appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of
waste, fraud and abuse."
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re
p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/

[W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And it¹s not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. That¹s hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they don¹t get away with no taxation.
- Ralph Nader
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:

i wonder if they have a graywater recycling system
from the building plumbing available?

It sounds like they shunt all the gray water to one line that can be
switched to the garden, or the sewer.

Was that the question?

yes, water being scarce out there i can't
imagine it being feasible to keep a large
rooftop garden off the regular water supply.


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:

i wonder if they have a graywater recycling system
from the building plumbing available?

It sounds like they shunt all the gray water to one line that can be
switched to the garden, or the sewer.

Was that the question?

yes, water being scarce out there i can't
imagine it being feasible to keep a large
rooftop garden off the regular water supply.


songbird

They said that they wanted a bigger cistern, but they didn't have the
room for it. If it would allow a 25% savings, that would be great. It
doesn't have to save everything to be good. Many small solutions would
be as good, or better than 1 big solution.
--
- Billy
Both the House and Senate budget plan would cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy.

Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for
elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans
"appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of
waste, fraud and abuse."
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re
p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/

[W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And it¹s not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. That¹s hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they don¹t get away with no taxation.
- Ralph Nader
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis

On Jul 31, 9:10*pm, songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
*songbird wrote:

* i wonder if they have a graywater recycling system
from the building plumbing available?

It sounds like they shunt all the gray water to one line that can be
switched to the garden, or the sewer.

Was that the question?

* yes, water being scarce out there i can't
imagine it being feasible to keep a large
rooftop garden off the regular water supply.

* songbird

I would say try hydroponics but it was invented more than a thousand
years ago and saves too much water!

Gunner wrote:
On Jul 31, 9:10 pm, songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:

i wonder if they have a graywater recycling system
from the building plumbing available?

It sounds like they shunt all the gray water to one line that can be
switched to the garden, or the sewer.

Was that the question?

yes, water being scarce out there i can't
imagine it being feasible to keep a large
rooftop garden off the regular water supply.

songbird

I would say try hydroponics but it was invented more than a thousand
years ago and saves too much water!

Who invented hydroponics more than 1000 years ago? I'll bet it was William
the Conqueror who used it to feed all those stormin Normans.

D

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Gunner wrote:
On Jul 31, 9:10 pm, songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:

i wonder if they have a graywater recycling system
from the building plumbing available?

It sounds like they shunt all the gray water to one line that can be
switched to the garden, or the sewer.

Was that the question?

yes, water being scarce out there i can't
imagine it being feasible to keep a large
rooftop garden off the regular water supply.

songbird
I'm sorry, I posted 2 different articles:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...7_lowwater07.h
tml
Couple incorporates cutting-edge water-savers in their home
and
http://www.denverpost.com/rss/ci_18302226?source=rss
Taking gardening to new heights

"Taking gardening to new heights" doesn't mention any special watering
system.


I would say try hydroponics but it was invented more than a thousand
years ago and saves too much water!

Who invented hydroponics more than 1000 years ago? I'll bet it was William
the Conqueror who used it to feed all those stormin Normans.

D
--
- Billy
Both the House and Senate budget plan would cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy.

Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for
elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans
"appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of
waste, fraud and abuse."
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re
p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/

[W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And it¹s not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. That¹s hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they don¹t get away with no taxation.
- Ralph Nader
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis

On Aug 7, 6:31*pm, "David Hare-Scott" wrote:
Gunner wrote:
On Jul 31, 9:10 pm, songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:

i wonder if they have a graywater recycling system
from the building plumbing available?

It sounds like they shunt all the gray water to one line that can be
switched to the garden, or the sewer.

Was that the question?

yes, water being scarce out there i can't
imagine it being feasible to keep a large
rooftop garden off the regular water supply.

songbird

I would say try hydroponics but it was invented more than a thousand
years ago and saves too much water!

Who invented hydroponics more than 1000 years ago? *

Dr. Howard M. Resh: "The hanging gardens of Babylon, the floating
gardens of the Aztecs of Mexico and those of the Chinese are examples
of 'Hydroponic' culture. Egyptian hieroglyphic records dating back
several hundred years B.C. describe the growing of plants in water."
Hydroponics is hardly a new method of growing plants. However, giant
strides have been made over the years in this innovative area of
agriculture.

I'll bet it was William
the Conqueror who used it to feed all those stormin Normans.

This must mean something to ya, yet really nothing here....A slow
winter for ya?.

Air...water... food... in that order.

Gunner wrote:
On Aug 7, 6:31 pm, "David Hare-Scott" wrote:
Gunner wrote:
On Jul 31, 9:10 pm, songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:

i wonder if they have a graywater recycling system
from the building plumbing available?

It sounds like they shunt all the gray water to one line that can
be switched to the garden, or the sewer.

Was that the question?

yes, water being scarce out there i can't
imagine it being feasible to keep a large
rooftop garden off the regular water supply.

songbird

I would say try hydroponics but it was invented more than a thousand
years ago and saves too much water!

Who invented hydroponics more than 1000 years ago?

Dr. Howard M. Resh: "The hanging gardens of Babylon, the floating
gardens of the Aztecs of Mexico and those of the Chinese are examples
of 'Hydroponic' culture. Egyptian hieroglyphic records dating back
several hundred years B.C. describe the growing of plants in water."
Hydroponics is hardly a new method of growing plants. However, giant
strides have been made over the years in this innovative area of
agriculture.


This is interesting. I would like to see the primary sources for this to
establish if (and how far) the author is stretching the definition of
"hydroponics". Two things come to mind, why did Resh put the word in
quotes, was he indicating that it was a stretch? I get the impression he
was deliberately using a broad definition by his standards to make a point
but not having read the man I can't be sure.

The second is that if you allow "growing plants in water" to be hydroponics
then anybody with pond plants is doing it and it has probably been been
carried out for much longer than 1000 years. If you define it as growing
plants in nutrient solutions then it seems hydroponics was toyed with in the
17th century but only got going in the 20th. Which makes sense as the
solutes would not have been available nor would the knowledge of chemistry.
I would be interested to know if there is any evidence of it in ancient
times by the tighter definition and how they did it.

David

On Aug 13, 3:34*pm, "David Hare-Scott" wrote:
Gunner wrote:
On Aug 7, 6:31 pm, "David Hare-Scott" wrote:
Gunner wrote:
On Jul 31, 9:10 pm, songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:

i wonder if they have a graywater recycling system
from the building plumbing available?

It sounds like they shunt all the gray water to one line that can
be switched to the garden, or the sewer.

Was that the question?

yes, water being scarce out there i can't
imagine it being feasible to keep a large
rooftop garden off the regular water supply.

songbird

I would say try hydroponics but it was invented more than a thousand
years ago and saves too much water!

Who invented hydroponics more than 1000 years ago?

Dr. Howard M. Resh: "The hanging gardens of Babylon, the floating
gardens of the Aztecs of Mexico and those of the Chinese are examples
of 'Hydroponic' culture. Egyptian hieroglyphic records dating back
several hundred years B.C. describe the growing of plants in water."
Hydroponics is hardly a new method of growing plants. However, giant
strides have been made over the years in this innovative area of
agriculture.

This is interesting. *I would like to see the primary sources for this to
establish if (and how far) the author is stretching the definition of
"hydroponics". * Two things come to mind, why did Resh put the word in
quotes, was he indicating that it was a stretch? *I get the impression he
was deliberately using a broad definition by his standards to make a point
but not having read the man I can't be sure.

The second is that if you allow "growing plants in water" to be hydroponics
then anybody with pond plants is doing it and it has probably been been
carried out for much longer than 1000 years. *If you define it as growing
plants in nutrient solutions then it seems hydroponics was toyed with in the
17th century but only got going in the 20th. * Which makes sense as the
solutes would not have been available nor would the knowledge of chemistry.
I would be interested to know if there is any evidence of it in ancient
times by the tighter definition and how they did it.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I will ask the Hydroponic ALLOWING committee to reconsider per your
comments.

Gunner wrote:
On Aug 13, 3:34 pm, "David Hare-Scott" wrote:
Gunner wrote:
On Aug 7, 6:31 pm, "David Hare-Scott" wrote:
Gunner wrote:
On Jul 31, 9:10 pm, songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:

i wonder if they have a graywater recycling system
from the building plumbing available?

It sounds like they shunt all the gray water to one line that
can be switched to the garden, or the sewer.

Was that the question?

yes, water being scarce out there i can't
imagine it being feasible to keep a large
rooftop garden off the regular water supply.

songbird

I would say try hydroponics but it was invented more than a
thousand years ago and saves too much water!

Who invented hydroponics more than 1000 years ago?

Dr. Howard M. Resh: "The hanging gardens of Babylon, the floating
gardens of the Aztecs of Mexico and those of the Chinese are
examples of 'Hydroponic' culture. Egyptian hieroglyphic records
dating back several hundred years B.C. describe the growing of
plants in water." Hydroponics is hardly a new method of growing
plants. However, giant strides have been made over the years in
this innovative area of agriculture.

This is interesting. I would like to see the primary sources for
this to establish if (and how far) the author is stretching the
definition of "hydroponics". Two things come to mind, why did Resh
put the word in quotes, was he indicating that it was a stretch? I
get the impression he was deliberately using a broad definition by
his standards to make a point but not having read the man I can't be
sure.

The second is that if you allow "growing plants in water" to be
hydroponics then anybody with pond plants is doing it and it has
probably been been carried out for much longer than 1000 years. If
you define it as growing plants in nutrient solutions then it seems
hydroponics was toyed with in the 17th century but only got going in
the 20th. Which makes sense as the solutes would not have been
available nor would the knowledge of chemistry. I would be
interested to know if there is any evidence of it in ancient times
by the tighter definition and how they did it.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I will ask the Hydroponic ALLOWING committee to reconsider per your
comments.

Why do you have to be caustic to me? When have I ever said anything about
allowing hydroponics?

I am interested in the history of the technique, maybe you can enlighten me.
Feel free to offer your knowledge and we will have a conservation. If all
you want to do is take jabs at people or ideas that you see as targets then
we won't.

David

I would say try hydroponics but it was invented more than a
thousand years ago and saves too much water!

Who invented hydroponics more than 1000 years ago?

Dr. Howard M. Resh: "The hanging gardens of Babylon, the floating
gardens of the Aztecs of Mexico and those of the Chinese are
examples of 'Hydroponic' culture. Egyptian hieroglyphic records
dating back several hundred years B.C. describe the growing of
plants in water." Hydroponics is hardly a new method of growing
plants. However, giant strides have been made over the years in
this innovative area of agriculture.


The second is that if you allow "growing plants in water" to be
hydroponics then anybody with pond plants is doing it and it has
probably been been carried out for much longer than 1000 years. If
you define it as growing plants in nutrient solutions then it seems
hydroponics was toyed with in the 17th century but only got going in
the 20th. Which makes sense as the solutes would not have been
available nor would the knowledge of chemistry. I would be
interested to know if there is any evidence of it in ancient times
by the tighter definition and how they did it.

David- Hide quoted text -

I will ask the Hydroponic ALLOWING committee to reconsider per your
comments.

Why do you have to be caustic to me? *When have I ever said anything about
allowing hydroponics?

I am interested in the history of the technique, maybe you can enlighten me.
Feel free to offer your knowledge and we will have a conservation. *If all
you want to do is take jabs at people or ideas that you see as targets then
we won't.

David

Then put it in neutral... wait...then and ask yourself why you framed
it as an either/or?

Don't get too wrapped around Resh's quotes, I grabbed the first one
from a long time hydro advocate I trust. It was one of Resh’s books
that started me on Hydro 20+ years back.

Resh has been at this for a while (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Howard_M._Resh). The Wiki link even refers to Resh's contributions
to the roof top technology lil billy is advocating even while billy
is attempting to denigrate Resh using juvenile propaganda tricks.
billy boy still does not read past his googlie searches and sonstantly
screws them up. FWIW The “thousand years” was a slight to the
songbird's touting her Organo low/no cost superior technology used
for "a thousand years" that the other side just “can’t” claim.
That 1000 year reference is “Irony” lost on zealots as you may see
later .

Most of the hydro history blurbs are not accurate… they’re pretty much
the same hair splitting anal or overly liberal hype among the many
advocates, as you can see from a quick scan of the billy's googlie
BS expert references. The myth/truth (most likely myth) claim of the
Hanging Gardens being hydro is not an important issue. It was the use
of the Archimedes screw ( think automation and pump flow) that helped
in building an oasis in the desert city that the Hydro advocates
relate with. ( Think business/home farms in the future.) If you are
of the mind set your still going to live in the little house on the
prairie and grow your own manure and be all “Locavore”
http://www.locavorenetwork.com/conte...nic-gardening… (BTW,
note the sponsors on that site!)..good on ya, but there are
predictions that 80% of the US population will be living w/in 100m of
a coast line by 2035. Water and space are gonna be biggies and the
term “urban” is going to take on a whole new meaning. So not just roof
tops but the whole building will be a hydro farm structure.

The Egyptian claim? I really do not care. No real follow-up leads
there but if you feel anal ..go for it.

The Aztec chinapasis claim on the other hand showed that the
Mesoamericans knew enough about plant biology to dig up the nutrient
rich lake silt to float their plants on (Deep Water Culture)and they
had an extensive knowledge/use of medicinal plants, most likely more
advanced than their “Saviors” had. Good bet it was these folks that
also developed one of the first GMOs; Corn. Plus, they knew enough of
the corn/bean secret to develop the three sisters to combat dietary
problems. So infer or not if they possessed mastery at a level you are
comfortable with. Yet we are still trying to learn their secrets.
Seems the zealots de jour decided the heathen's culture/language be
obliterated and so we cannot be sure we are interpreting the small
information saved is correct. They were in many ways farther advanced
than their Euro saviors.

as for your comments;

"The second is that if you allow "growing plants in water" to be
hydroponics
then anybody with pond plants is doing it and it has probably been
carried out for much longer than 1000 years.

and

"If you define it as growing plants in nutrient solutions then it
seems hydroponics was toyed with in the
17th century but only got going in the 20th. Which makes sense as
the solutes would not have been available nor would the knowledge of
chemistry.


Initially I did find your questions strange until I realized the
internet is redefining the term hydroponics as; plants growing in
solution and this group has been tempered in the organic/inorganic
camps for so long because of the likes of billy et. al. that you are
looking for a similar "us or them" pattern. As for "allowing" or not?
I don't know as there is an "Hydroponic Allowing Committee" nor do I
believe should there be. Any ignorant fool that wants to split hairs
on hydroponics is welcome to bark at that moon. They obviously a.)
do not understand science, b.)are a sophist or c.)a zealot or d.) all
three and named billy.

You do understand that hydroponics can be what you term "organic" as
demonstrated by the Chinapasis methodology. There are potential
biological issues that must/should be recognized, and monitored just
as there are in a hydroponic chemical environment. Which are really no
different than conventional or organo farming. Piling up a bunch of
bullshit before the snows fall is the same as overloading with
inorganic nitrogen. Sounds all organo but pure BS in practice. I
digress. Man was growing plants in waters on at least two continents
long before some European WASP started cataloging mineral salts and
essential elements for plants and this ludicrous organic debate began
Today most growers however, find it is much better to use the actual
mineral salts the plants use and in as pure a form as possible. You
don’t want to introduce potential pathogens in your system from some
suspect source and you don’t want to keep piling up crap hoping Nature
will have enough good bacteria in her bank to overcome your
stupidity. For those that are still in denial of science… The plant
does not care how it gets its essential nutrients, they are exactly
the same to a plant , just remember liquor is quicker. Now for more
stupid, If “chemferts” kill , how in hell does Hydro grow so well?
So for Stupid to assert a Hydro grower doesn’t understand his eco
system is, … well, what Stupid does. The water savings along should
be driving this train. Despite billy's little lame attempt at
denigration in highlighting the little Aerogarden which has hired Resh
for branding value, the product does work. I think of it as a toy
gimmick, not so much because of the hydro part but because of the
lighting, it has no horsepower.


Here is the challenge if you’re up for the game and you got the
science down. Develop an easily transportable hydro system to grow a
near complete 2000 k diet for a family of 4 refugee/displaced persons
in a camp situation. What caveman chemistry will work to keep it
growing. You should be able to outline the fertilizer requirements,
number of seeds, develop an effective IPM or some type control for
that region. Solar stills will/may help with H2O as does this
concept: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIDzBQ6meYY. Portable pumps
as well as portable filtration systems Realizing everything will
have to be region dependent, to include consideration of the medical
status of the indigenous population ( i.e. Don’t consider urea from a
high-risk group unless…!)

If you want to see where we think Hydro is headed:

http://www.highpants.com/renovation-planning/?p=588
vertical walls
http://www.tuvie.com/search/sun+flower
Kitchen Nano Garden

http://asia.cnet.com/crave/vege-62101032.htm
or
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006...rolux_desi.php
Electrolux VEGE Hydroponic station