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Soil Dumping
I'm slowly converting my tiny suburban back area into a garden.
Progress is slowed because of a chronic problem of landscapers dumping unused overburden on it. I understand why, because our local landfill charges $200 a yard to dump the stuff. (Ask Me How I Know This.) I shovel and vacuum the dirt up off the clay, but a month later, I'm gifted with another half-a-yard of fill dirt, neatly distributed over the surface and pushed into the crawlspace under an outbuilding. Every week for the last decade, I've filled my garbage can full of this soil but the amount in the back yard is a constant, not a variable. The next larger trash can would cost me an additional $30 a month, which I don't have to spare. I have a Freecycle ad offering this clean fill but I have no takers. How would you solve this problem? Thanks! --Winston |
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David E. Ross wrote:
(...) If you really own the property, the dumping you describe is most likely illegal. Well, you are right, there. :) You need to identify the source accurately, taking photos or even a video. Then file a police complaint, not only for dumping but also for trespassing. You might also consider a civil lawsuit against the dumper. I don't understand. If I give money to a lawyer, how would that limit the amount of extra soil left on my property? I know very little about the law, but I've never seen a lawyer knowingly use a shovel in a moral and honest manner. You do understand that the three individuals involved all know where I live, yes? The police in my area are busy dealing with murder, home invasions, arson, robbery (serious stuff). As painful as this nuisance is, I'm not interested in being the victim of a crime that the police would find noteworthy. --Winston |
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" writes:
I'm slowly converting my tiny suburban back area into a garden. Progress is slowed because of a chronic problem of landscapers dumping unused overburden on it. Are these landscapers you've asked to come and work on your property? I understand why, because our local landfill charges $200 a yard to dump the stuff. (Ask Me How I Know This.) I shovel and vacuum the dirt up off the clay, but a month later, I'm gifted with another half-a-yard of fill dirt, neatly distributed over the surface and pushed into the crawlspace under an outbuilding. Every week for the last decade, I've filled my garbage can full of this soil but the amount in the back yard is a constant, not a variable. The next larger trash can would cost me an additional $30 a month, which I don't have to spare. I have a Freecycle ad offering this clean fill but I have no takers. How would you solve this problem? The rest of your post makes no sense to me. Are these your landscapers doing something you don't like or some random landscapers illegally dumping soil on your land? Or are you just having us on? -- Dan Espen |
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Frank wrote:
(...) Don't know where you live but there are other authorities besides police. Violation of county codes here can result in a fine by a county inspector for example. Also here, a small civil suit can be brought before a magistrate without using a lawyer. Years ago I successfully sued the Ford motor company for a few thousand dollars in repairs they wanted me to do. First you should identify who is doing it and get proof. I'd set up something like a trail camera that functions in low light. OK. Thank you. --Winston |
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David E. Ross wrote:
(...) Even if the police do nothing, you should still file a criminal complaint. You need a copy of the complaint to sue those who are dumping on your property. You can sue in small claims court using the copy of the complaint as part of the evidence. You can also hire an attorney and sue for an amount greater than the small claims limit, not only for actual damages (the cost of removing the dumped dirt) but also for your costs (the attorney's fees), for punitive damages, and for exemplary damages. No, I do not believe in suing at the drop of a hat. In my 70+ years, I have been a plaintiff only once and been sued only once. However, repeated offenses should be punished. If the police will not do anything, a good, solid lawsuit is a great punishment against wrong-doers. Also, having filed a complaint with the police and having good evidence (e.g., photos, videos) might indeed prompt a criminal prosecution, especially if you are not the only victim. Thanks for your insight, David. --Winston |
Soil Dumping
David Hare-Scott wrote:
(...) You describe what is clearly a legal problem but you refuse to consider legal remedies. You know who is doing it but won't take any action against them. What are we to make of this? I begin to suspect trolling for entertainment. These three folks are criminals who have only one reaction to having moral weaknesses pointed out to them. I don't want to be 'reacted against'. This has nothing to do with gardening. Try rec.free.legal.advice or alt.pointless.whining I'm losing all my gardening time recovering from vandalism. Otherwise, my mulching project would be much further along. --Winston |
Soil Dumping
Dan Espen wrote:
t writes: I'm slowly converting my tiny suburban back area into a garden. Progress is slowed because of a chronic problem of landscapers dumping unused overburden on it. Are these landscapers you've asked to come and work on your property? The guy I'll call Dale was. He and his team did extensive hardscape work. I supplied him with a requirements sheet that specified that the grade at the finish of the project was to be no higher than the grade at the start of the project. I reinforced this verbally a couple times during the project. Dale is not a real good listener. Dale was assisted by a guy I will call Richie, who stared at me and said "I know where to put extra dirt." when I mentioned how disappointed I was that my requirement for an 'existing grade' finish was being ignored. The third guy who I will call Martin did some work for a neighbor over the back fence this week. I had my yard all vacuumed up, with nothing but the cracked adobe showing, ready for me to scoop it out and replace with mulch, again. A couple days after Martin started my neighbor's project, my back yard was under half an inch of powdery gravel once more. I sighed heavily and began shoveling and vacuuming, again. I find it interesting that these donations coincide with landscaper visits (to neighboring properties) to a high degree. I understand why, because our local landfill charges $200 a yard to dump the stuff. (Ask Me How I Know This.) I shovel and vacuum the dirt up off the clay, but a month later, I'm gifted with another half-a-yard of fill dirt, neatly distributed over the surface and pushed into the crawlspace under an outbuilding. Every week for the last decade, I've filled my garbage can full of this soil but the amount in the back yard is a constant, not a variable. The next larger trash can would cost me an additional $30 a month, which I don't have to spare. I have a Freecycle ad offering this clean fill but I have no takers. How would you solve this problem? The rest of your post makes no sense to me. Are these your landscapers doing something you don't like or some random landscapers illegally dumping soil on your land? Both. Or are you just having us on? No. I continue to hope that one of my new friends on rec.gardens will be willing to talk about how they: * Converted dusty gravel into a nutritious mulch :) * Traded dusty gravel to a pal that needed road base for a paver project * Found that the county would visit and pull up clean fill dirt as a donation on a monthly basis * Or anything that would allow me to actually work on my garden without having all my time wasted cleaning up someone else's mess :) --Winston |
Soil Dumping
Kay Lancaster wrote:
On Thu, 02 Aug 2012 07:59:08 -0700, wrote: I'm slowly converting my tiny suburban back area into a garden. Progress is slowed because of a chronic problem of landscapers dumping unused overburden on it. Do you own the land? If so, they're trespassing and you can pursue legal action. Yes, but what then? I'd've given money to a lawyer that I cannot afford, and now I've got a team of sore losers out for blood. I don't believe these criminals will see the error of their ways and never bother me again afterward. Call me pessimistic. For them, trespassing and vandalism is just 'business'. I can imagine what they consider 'retaliation'. I briefly considered labeling my buckets of donated overburden with: "Platinum ore samples. Please do not steal." They would be gone in minutes. :) --Winston |
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" writes:
Dan Espen wrote: t writes: I'm slowly converting my tiny suburban back area into a garden. Progress is slowed because of a chronic problem of landscapers dumping unused overburden on it. Are these landscapers you've asked to come and work on your property? The guy I'll call Dale was. He and his team did extensive hardscape work. I supplied him with a requirements sheet that specified that the grade at the finish of the project was to be no higher than the grade at the start of the project. I reinforced this verbally a couple times during the project. Dale is not a real good listener. Dale was assisted by a guy I will call Richie, who stared at me and said "I know where to put extra dirt." when I mentioned how disappointed I was that my requirement for an 'existing grade' finish was being ignored. Perhaps he was as mystified as I am about why you wanted cracked adobe instead of soil. But if you didn't want the soil you should not have let them put it down. The third guy who I will call Martin did some work for a neighbor over the back fence this week. I had my yard all vacuumed up, with nothing but the cracked adobe showing, ready for me to scoop it out and replace with mulch, again. A couple days after Martin started my neighbor's project, my back yard was under half an inch of powdery gravel once more. I sighed heavily and began shoveling and vacuuming, again. I find it interesting that these donations coincide with landscaper visits (to neighboring properties) to a high degree. A half inch of gravel got over your fence? Did it rain? Are you down hill? If so, put in a barrier (a low wall). Still have no idea what you are trying to do. I understand why, because our local landfill charges $200 a yard to dump the stuff. (Ask Me How I Know This.) I shovel and vacuum the dirt up off the clay, but a month later, I'm gifted with another half-a-yard of fill dirt, neatly distributed over the surface and pushed into the crawlspace under an outbuilding. Every week for the last decade, I've filled my garbage can full of this soil but the amount in the back yard is a constant, not a variable. The next larger trash can would cost me an additional $30 a month, which I don't have to spare. I have a Freecycle ad offering this clean fill but I have no takers. How would you solve this problem? The rest of your post makes no sense to me. Are these your landscapers doing something you don't like or some random landscapers illegally dumping soil on your land? Both. Or are you just having us on? No. I continue to hope that one of my new friends on rec.gardens will be willing to talk about how they: * Converted dusty gravel into a nutritious mulch :) Mulch is not nutritious. It's not meant to be. * Traded dusty gravel to a pal that needed road base for a paver project * Found that the county would visit and pull up clean fill dirt as a donation on a monthly basis * Or anything that would allow me to actually work on my garden without having all my time wasted cleaning up someone else's mess :) Still can't figure out how this stuff is getting in your yard from your description. -- Dan Espen |
Soil Dumping
Dan Espen wrote:
(...) Legal problem? He's complaining that someone left something that costs money on his property. Landscapers don't dump gravel that they have to pay for on random lots. Only on those lots with 'unimproved' soil. They figure, apparently that the owner won't be able to tell the difference. The story makes no sense. Lots of true things make no sense. :) --Winston |
Soil Dumping
" writes:
Dan Espen wrote: (...) Legal problem? He's complaining that someone left something that costs money on his property. Landscapers don't dump gravel that they have to pay for on random lots. Only on those lots with 'unimproved' soil. They figure, apparently that the owner won't be able to tell the difference. Uh no. A contractor doesn't just find extra soil on his truck. He buys it at a yard. Not where I live anyway. I don't know where you are but I don't think contractors get free soil anywhere. Even if they got free soil it's not free to put it in your yard. The story makes no sense. Lots of true things make no sense. :) But you're telling a story about a problem you have and claim to want useful answers. Now you are agreeing that your story doesn't make sense... Beats me what's going on. -- Dan Espen |
Soil Dumping
Dan Espen wrote:
t writes: (...) Perhaps he was as mystified as I am about why you wanted cracked adobe instead of soil. I'm remediating the adobe. I notice that my shovel is more effective in scooping it up for disposal and remediation if there is no gravel on top of it. If I expose the adobe, it tends to dry, which really lowers the humidity in the house, too. Is the gravel in your area particularly soft? :) But if you didn't want the soil you should not have let them put it down. What was I supposed to do, show up with a gun? :) I did what I could. I told them what I wanted in printed and spoken instructions. I kept shoveling the overburden out and when the contractor had the temerity to ask for a recommendation, I was very silent on the subject. I'm a very enthusiastic supporter of those few businesspeople that just 'do their jobs' and often offer recommendations. Not this time. (...) I find it interesting that these donations coincide with landscaper visits (to neighboring properties) to a high degree. A half inch of gravel got over your fence? Did it rain? Are you down hill? If so, put in a barrier (a low wall). A low wall is unlikely to provide much of a barrier when a 6' fence proved ineffective. Still have no idea what you are trying to do. I'm trying to 'garden'. My first step is to improve the soil from it's current deplorable state. I have begun removing and disposing of the extra clay that was added by my contractor and I'm slowly digging past the original clay and adding mulch. After I have soil, I hope to learn more here about the kinds of solutions you all have developed to problems I'm likely to encounter. My local landfill values the overburden so highly that they will accept nothing less than $200 a yard to allow me to dump it on their lot. (It is not exactly gold, Dan.) (...) I continue to hope that one of my new friends on rec.gardens will be willing to talk about how they: * Converted dusty gravel into a nutritious mulch :) Mulch is not nutritious. It's not meant to be. My smiley indicates that I was joshing about the possibility of changing rock into a material likely to provide fertilizer, temperature moderation and soil enrichment. (I was kidding.) * Traded dusty gravel to a pal that needed road base for a paver project * Found that the county would visit and pull up clean fill dirt as a donation on a monthly basis * Or anything that would allow me to actually work on my garden without having all my time wasted cleaning up someone else's mess :) Still can't figure out how this stuff is getting in your yard from your description. I don't know either. I suspect the use of shovels, however. --Winston |
Soil Dumping
Dan Espen wrote:
t writes: Dan Espen wrote: (...) Legal problem? He's complaining that someone left something that costs money on his property. Landscapers don't dump gravel that they have to pay for on random lots. Only on those lots with 'unimproved' soil. They figure, apparently that the owner won't be able to tell the difference. Uh no. A contractor doesn't just find extra soil on his truck. It becomes 'extra' when the job is complete and there is no requirement for the remainder. It is now a very expensive liability. The contractor is not about to load it on his truck and find a safe, legal, moral way to dispose of it if he can merely litter a neighbor's lot with it. It's just faster and cheaper to litter, especially at $200 a yard to toss it. He buys it at a yard. Not where I live anyway. I don't know where you are but I don't think contractors get free soil anywhere. Even if they got free soil it's not free to put it in your yard. Let's do some arithmetic. Half a yard of soil to dispose on a neighbor's unimproved lot: A quarter hour of labor to break on to the property, wheel the soil in, distribute it evenly: About 5 bucks. Done properly, it is more expensive. An hour of labor: $20 10 miles of gas: $4 Entrance fee to a proper disposal site: $100 I figure $124 is more than $5 even ignoring the 'opportunity cost' of tying up a laborer to move the soil to the proper site. The story makes no sense. Lots of true things make no sense. :) But you're telling a story about a problem you have and claim to want useful answers. Yes. Here are more examples: * Tell me how to make it *more* expensive to dump this stuff on my lot than to dispose of it properly (without endangering me or my family). * Tell me who will vacuum this stuff up for free and use it for some noble purpose for the benefit of mankind, monthly. * Tell me how to cheaply convert this stuff into a valuable commodity that I can sell for huge bucks on eBay. :) Now you are agreeing that your story doesn't make sense... Yes. While you're at it, here are some other true things that make no sense: * Why are people buying photovoltaics at more than say 4c per peak watt when the buyback period is much longer than the owner's remaining life expectancy? * Why are people burning diesel to convert corn into alcohol that causes car mileage to decrease? * Why am I expected to drive my car to do practically *anything*. * Why are we so focused on politics when there is not a shred of evidence it makes any difference? There are lots of things like that. :) Beats me what's going on. Check under your ground cover some time. The castoff chunks of concrete debris are courtesy of your local building contractor. Please thank them for their valuable contribution to your savings. :) --Winston |
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" writes:
Dan Espen wrote: t writes: Dan Espen wrote: (...) Legal problem? He's complaining that someone left something that costs money on his property. Landscapers don't dump gravel that they have to pay for on random lots. Only on those lots with 'unimproved' soil. They figure, apparently that the owner won't be able to tell the difference. Uh no. A contractor doesn't just find extra soil on his truck. It becomes 'extra' when the job is complete and there is no requirement for the remainder. It is now a very expensive liability. The contractor is not about to load it on his truck and find a safe, legal, moral way to dispose of it if he can merely litter a neighbor's lot with it. It's just faster and cheaper to litter, especially at $200 a yard to toss it. If a contractor buys soil at a yard, they can return any unused soil for refund. If you show up with some junk from your yard, they are not going to take it. Yes. While you're at it, here are some other true things that make no sense: How very unhelpful. Beats me what's going on. Check under your ground cover some time. The castoff chunks of concrete debris are courtesy of your local building contractor. Please thank them for their valuable contribution to your savings. :) Burying building materials on a new home site is not done where I live. Sounds like you're in the SouthWest somewhere. Can't say what your laws or practices are. Also don't know how to enrich your "soil", but mulch is a cover meant to keep down weeds. I can assure you there are no building materials buried anywhere on my property. I've been here long enough to know. I've dug just about everywhere on the property in over 30 years. -- Dan Espen |
Soil Dumping
Dan Espen wrote:
t writes: (...) If a contractor buys soil at a yard, they can return any unused soil for refund. The labor to load it on his truck and the time and labor cost to drive it to the yard far exceeds the value of the commodity. 'Better to vandalize and flee. Much cheaper and faster. :) If you show up with some junk from your yard, they are not going to take it. I wouldn't even try. Yes. While you're at it, here are some other true things that make no sense: How very unhelpful. :) Beats me what's going on. Check under your ground cover some time. The castoff chunks of concrete debris are courtesy of your local building contractor. Please thank them for their valuable contribution to your savings. :) Burying building materials on a new home site is not done where I live. It's done here all the time. 'Mostly on older, well - established home sites, though. Sounds like you're in the SouthWest somewhere. Can't say what your laws or practices are. Silicon Gulch California. We have laws but our criminals tend to disobey them. Also don't know how to enrich your "soil", but mulch is a cover meant to keep down weeds. That too. I can assure you there are no building materials buried anywhere on my property. I've been here long enough to know. I've dug just about everywhere on the property in over 30 years. Congratulations on your great luck! --Winston |
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wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote: On Thu, 02 Aug 2012 07:59:08 -0700, wrote: I'm slowly converting my tiny suburban back area into a garden. Progress is slowed because of a chronic problem of landscapers dumping unused overburden on it. Do you own the land? If so, they're trespassing and you can pursue legal action. Yes, but what then? I'd've given money to a lawyer that I cannot afford, and now I've got a team of sore losers out for blood. I don't believe these criminals will see the error of their ways and never bother me again afterward. Call me pessimistic. For them, trespassing and vandalism is just 'business'. I can imagine what they consider 'retaliation'. What a wuss! |
Soil Dumping
Bob F wrote:
(...) If you aren't going to deal with the vandalism, then it's your problem. Yes. And? Did you have a suggestion of how to do that effectively without suffering an accidental fire, accidental smashed window, etc likely to be meted out by these guys if I haul them into court? Do you have some better information about the motivation for the vandalism than I've conjectured here so that I can make it more valuable for them to dump elsewhere? Thanks! --Winston |
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Bob F wrote:
wrote: (...) For them, trespassing and vandalism is just 'business'. I can imagine what they consider 'retaliation'. What a wuss! Ah but an honest, law abiding likable wuss. :) --Winston |
Soil Dumping
songbird wrote:
wrote: ... I have a Freecycle ad offering this clean fill but I have no takers. How would you solve this problem? clearly tresspassing, how would you deal with people coming on your property that aren't wanted? My question exactly. Can you talk more about that please? how are they getting through your 6 foot fence? is the gate locked? Yes, with a padlock. It apparently takes them several seconds to open it. The padlock has kept thousands of law abiding folks on their side of the fence. Criminals? Not quite so many. :) --Winston |
Troll alert: (was) Soil Dumping
A professional victim on usenet and (unless the entire story is fabricated)
in life. D |
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On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 12:40:10 -0700, "
wrote: songbird wrote: wrote: ... I have a Freecycle ad offering this clean fill but I have no takers. How would you solve this problem? clearly tresspassing, how would you deal with people coming on your property that aren't wanted? My question exactly. Can you talk more about that please? how are they getting through your 6 foot fence? is the gate locked? Yes, with a padlock. It apparently takes them several seconds to open it. The padlock has kept thousands of law abiding folks on their side of the fence. Criminals? Not quite so many. :) --Winston 12 gauge shotgon.Preferable pump with 4 magnum shots. Enjoy. |
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songbird writes:
wrote: songbird wrote: ... clearly tresspassing, how would you deal with people coming on your property that aren't wanted? My question exactly. Can you talk more about that please? here? i'd take pictures and call the police. temporarily setting up a motion sensitive very bright light so that if it is happening at night they get a bright light in the face when the get in the yard... to make sure the camera gets a good picture. ;) Yes, he should definitely call the police. I did some research and soil dumping has become a serious problem in the SouthWest. Next to pedophilia more people have had their entire lives ruined from this serious epidemic. The police will give this their highest priority. -- Dan Espen |
Troll alert: (was) Soil Dumping
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
... A professional victim on usenet and (unless the entire story is fabricated) in life. :-)) There is a woman like that on rec.food.cooking. She plays the victim and always has excuses for why she can't accept any advice given to her. I dont know why anyone ever bothers to reply to her and I decided the same would probalby apply in this instance. |
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Troll alert: (was) Soil Dumping
On 03 Aug 2012, "Farm1" wrote in rec.gardens:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message ... A professional victim on usenet and (unless the entire story is fabricated) in life. :-)) There is a woman like that on rec.food.cooking. She plays :the victim and always has excuses for why she can't accept any advice given to her. I dont know why anyone ever bothers to reply to her and I decided the same would probalby apply in this instance. There's actually a name for this behavior. It's called the "Why Don't You / Yes But" Game. It involves one party asking for help with a problem, but rejecting all suggestions. The real goal is not to solve their problem, but to get attention and keep the game going on as long as possible. This article describes it more completely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transac..._You.2FYes_But In this case, Party 1 is "enhancing" the game by being vague and making the would-be helpers laboriously tease out bits of the story, scrap by incomplete scrap. Almost every newsgroup attracts YDYYB game players eventually. |
Troll alert: (was) Soil Dumping
In article , "Farm1"
wrote: "David Hare-Scott" wrote in message ... A professional victim on usenet and (unless the entire story is fabricated) in life. :-)) There is a woman like that on rec.food.cooking. She plays the victim and always has excuses for why she can't accept any advice given to her. I dont know why anyone ever bothers to reply to her and I decided the same would probalby apply in this instance. Amen. -- Welcome to the New America. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg or E Pluribus Unum Green Party Nominee Jill Stein & Running Mate, Cheri Honkala http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/13/green_party_nominee_jill_stein_running |
Troll alert:
Nil writes:
On 03 Aug 2012, "Farm1" wrote in rec.gardens: "David Hare-Scott" wrote in message ... A professional victim on usenet and (unless the entire story is fabricated) in life. :-)) There is a woman like that on rec.food.cooking. She plays :the victim and always has excuses for why she can't accept any advice given to her. I dont know why anyone ever bothers to reply to her and I decided the same would probalby apply in this instance. There's actually a name for this behavior. It's called the "Why Don't You / Yes But" Game. It involves one party asking for help with a problem, but rejecting all suggestions. The real goal is not to solve their problem, but to get attention and keep the game going on as long as possible. This article describes it more completely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transac..._You.2FYes_But In this case, Party 1 is "enhancing" the game by being vague and making the would-be helpers laboriously tease out bits of the story, scrap by incomplete scrap. Almost every newsgroup attracts YDYYB game players eventually. Don't think I every heard of this before. Thanks! So what Winston is looking for here is justification for not doing yard work. Interesting. This makes a lot more sense than the "call the police" answers. -- Dan Espen |
Soil Dumping
Thanks everyone for your constructive criticism,
suggestions and, in some cases, snarky yet ignorant babble. :) I've decided to cover the entire undeveloped area with mulch. That way, my friends will see that any further contributions will be immediately visible. Hopefully that will be sufficient deterrent. I can temporarily shop vac up a spot of mulch and continue to use my post-hole digger to lift the clay into a nearby bucket until the hole drains itself. Deposit mulch in hole to surface, rinse, lather, repeat. At some point in the distant future, I'll rent a tiller and combine all the goodness. :) --Winston |
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In article ,
" wrote: Thanks everyone for your constructive criticism, suggestions and, in some cases, snarky yet ignorant babble. :) I've decided to cover the entire undeveloped area with mulch. That way, my friends will see that any further contributions will be immediately visible. Hopefully that will be sufficient deterrent. I can temporarily shop vac up a spot of mulch and continue to use my post-hole digger to lift the clay into a nearby bucket until the hole drains itself. Deposit mulch in hole to surface, rinse, lather, repeat. At some point in the distant future, I'll rent a tiller and combine all the goodness. :) --Winston Whatever. See you again when my KF freezes over. -- Welcome to the New America. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg or E Pluribus Unum Green Party Nominee Jill Stein & Running Mate, Cheri Honkala http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/13/green_party_nominee_jill_stein_running |
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