As I noted in a previous post, I am recently getting interested in
taking a more active role in my back yard. We have an older place with
an "established" landscaping, meaning a bunch of plants that have been
allowed to run wild for 20 years. I have, for the past decade or so,
taken the Darwinistic approach to gardening -- plant lots of plants
more or less at random and cheer on the survivors.

Among the survivors are a number of old garden roses. They are very bushy,
about 4 or 5 feet in diameter and about 6 feet high. They bloom like
crazy this time of the year -- there are probably 50 good-sized blooms
on each. The only thing I have done with them in the past decade has
been to cut them back from pathways so I could get in and out of the backyard.

At the moment they are are very green, but in a couple of weeks, all
the leaves will turn yellow and fall off. It starts with a few
black spots, then the entire leaf turns yellow, and then falls
off. By the end of the summer, all I have are green skeletons of
the bushes with a few new leaves where new growth is. It looks
like something out of an Addams Family movie. The roses look like
death warmed over by fall, but come out hail and hearty in the
spring.

I live in suburban Maryland, near DC.

Any ideas of what this might be, and what I might do were I to
actually try to do something?


billo

"Bill Oliver" wrote in message
I live in suburban Maryland, near DC.

Hi, neighbor! I live in suburban Maryland, near DC too. Well not
super-near--we're about 10 minutes from the Shady Grove metro.

Any ideas of what this might be, and what I might do were I to
actually try to do something?

Sounds like blackspot, a fungal disease. There are some organic sprays that
are supposed to prevent it, one involves mixing baking soda with water and
the other mixes milk with water. I don't remember the exact proportions for
the baking soda mixture.

"Bill Oliver" wrote in message
...


Any ideas of what this might be, and what I might do were I to
actually try to do something?


I'm not a rose expert. All I know is that I haven't had the time or
inclination to find "old" varieties which haven't had natural resistance
bred out of them. I guess other things have taken priority in my garden.
What I *do* know is that for your particular roses (which sound like hybrid
tea roses), you have a choice of either fussing endlessly with various
sprays, or getting rid of the plants. If you really want roses, I'd contact
the American Rose Society to find out about disease-resistant varieties:

http://www.ars.org/explore.cfm

Hint: I have what some call "beach roses", and I don't know the Latin name.
Some research should lead you to the answer. They've been in my yard for 75
years, according to ancient neighbors. In the 20 years that they've been in
my care, I've never seen ANYTHING attack them. They produce mostly single
flowers, a few doubles, but nothing like the tea roses you get when you buy
someone a dozen roses. However, they have a scent that lights up the entire
back yard. Perhaps because of the way I trim them, all the flowers grow at
about the same distance out on the branches. So, when they fade, it's easy
to deadhead many at one time using big garden scissors. A month later, I get
more flowers. These plants thumb their noses at snow, salt, and being
encased in ice.

In another spot, I have some roses whose flowers are fluffy and irregular,
like carnations. Their smell is amazing, and like the others, they've had no
problems with diseases. When I moved in, the old Italian lady on that
property line told me all I had to do was trim them "six a to twelve a incha
froma da ground" in early March. Other than care for the soil, that's all
I've done, and these bushes are 7' high by mid-May, loaded with flowers.

Anyway...I'd go out and find better roses if I were you.

In article ,
Doug Kanter wrote:

Anyway...I'd go out and find better roses if I were you.


Heh. Well, that was sort of my Darwinistic approach -- I'd buy
roses that were supposed to be hardy and just see how hardy they
were. These are the survivors.

In fact, they are not the hybrid tea roses, but were variously called
Old English or Old Garden or some such when I bought them (at least the
ones I bought -- I don't have a clue about the others). As I said,
they grow well -- they have survived drouth, hard winters, wet, deer,
rabbits, dog pee, and many godchildren -- they just lose their leaves
as the season goes on.


billo

In article ,
Julia Green wrote:

"Bill Oliver" wrote in message
I live in suburban Maryland, near DC.

Hi, neighbor! I live in suburban Maryland, near DC too. Well not
super-near--we're about 10 minutes from the Shady Grove metro.


Hi! I live out that way myself -- though I am loathe to publish
my address on the net.


Any ideas of what this might be, and what I might do were I to
actually try to do something?

Sounds like blackspot, a fungal disease. There are some organic sprays that
are supposed to prevent it, one involves mixing baking soda with water and
the other mixes milk with water. I don't remember the exact proportions for
the baking soda mixture.



Yeah. I looked up black spot on the net, and the pictures match
fairly well. The recipe from www.acplace.com/recipes/lrose.htm
is:

1tbs liquid dish soap
1tbs baking soda
1gal water


She also says that placing small containers of water under the
rose bushes will attract ladybugs. I'd never heard of that, either.

billo

On 9 Jun 2003 18:10:31 GMT, (Bill Oliver) wrote:

In article ,
Doug Kanter wrote:

Anyway...I'd go out and find better roses if I were you.


Heh. Well, that was sort of my Darwinistic approach -- I'd buy
roses that were supposed to be hardy and just see how hardy they
were. These are the survivors.

In fact, they are not the hybrid tea roses, but were variously called
Old English or Old Garden or some such when I bought them (at least the
ones I bought -- I don't have a clue about the others). As I said,
they grow well -- they have survived drouth, hard winters, wet, deer,
rabbits, dog pee, and many godchildren -- they just lose their leaves
as the season goes on.

My neighbor here in SE Virginia loves roses and spends a lot of time
on them, but also follows Darwin. She was out there yesterday digging
up a very dramatic dark red rose that performed nicely for a year or
2, and has been declining for 3 or 4 now. She's had very good success
with Rugosa types. A few weeks ago I could see *lovely* sort of
garlands of bloom draping from a large bush. When I commented on this,
she sneered that "root stock" had taken over something more desirable.
Sure were pretty. She pruned heavily, but perhaps the mongrel will
emerge again next spring.

I'm not determined enough to try and grow roses here, but I'd look up
blackspot and the various fungal problems that happen in our (I think
relatively similar) climates. Pruning also can sometimes do wonders, I
hear. Or move to New Mexico. :-)

Good luck with your roses. Give them plenty of air and light, and hope
for the best.

This sounds like classic "black spot" disease. It is very common with
roses. Pruning off some of the top part to allow sun and air into
the plant helps. To prevent black spot, I use Ortho Rose Fungicide
every ten days (in a garden sprayer) from early spring until summer,
then once every two weeks. I have not seen black spot since 1998
(when I did not use the fungicide.) After black spot takes hold, it
is difficult to control. All you can do now is prune out some canes
and burn what is removed to prevent it from coming back next year.
I've tried a more environmental-friendly method using a baking soda
solution spray, but it did not work too well and the baking soda left
a white film on the leaves.

"Bill Oliver" wrote in message
Hi! I live out that way myself -- though I am loathe to publish
my address on the net.

Definitely not a good idea.

She also says that placing small containers of water under the
rose bushes will attract ladybugs. I'd never heard of that, either.

I'll tell you what attracts ladybugs--aphids. They like to eat them. As
long as you don't used poisons around your gardens the ladybugs will come
when needed. But they don't help blackspot at all.

Good, easy-care roses: rugosas and hybrid musks

Any standing water will attract mosquitoes, not lady bugs.
Then you will have a "red spot" problem along with your black spot problem
;-)

Thinning them out and a good dose of Ortho seems like your best bet. Also
remember to always clean up fallen leaves from around the base of the plant.

Cheers-
Erin

"Steve & Erin" wrote in message
news:2feFa.929202$Zo.213004@sccrnsc03...
Any standing water will attract mosquitoes, not lady bugs.
Then you will have a "red spot" problem along with your black spot problem
;-)

Thinning them out and a good dose of Ortho seems like your best bet. Also
remember to always clean up fallen leaves from around the base of the
plant.


Good lord.....don't simply tell a newbie to use "Ortho"! Provide a specific
product name so they buy only the correct thing, and nothing more.
Otherwise, they end up with a container of the wrong thing sitting in the
garage, until they finally decide to get rid of it, and probably not by
disposing of it correctly.

This is why 75% of places I like to fish have "don't eat" warnings on so
many species.

In article ,
Phisherman wrote:
This sounds like classic "black spot" disease...


Thanks for the advice!

billo

(Bill Oliver) wrote in message ...
At the moment they are are very green, but in a couple of weeks, all
the leaves will turn yellow and fall off. It starts with a few
black spots, then the entire leaf turns yellow, and then falls
off. By the end of the summer, all I have are green skeletons of
the bushes with a few new leaves where new growth is. It looks
like something out of an Addams Family movie.

By now, you know it's blackspot. I go through the same thing each
season since I don't use like to use chemical sprays . Do you know if
some of your bushes are more resistant to blackspot than others? This
year, I decided I have had enough and so am getting rid of the bush
that gets it early (Patient X). I know for a fact that the surrounding
bushes are much more blackspot resistant and have been getting an
extra helping of the blackspot from the Patient X bush.

The varieties I have planted that are more resistant (that just means
they don't get done in as quickly by blackspot):
Gruss an Aachen
Buck rose "Amiga Mia"
Rose de Rescht
You can research more varieties that are blackspot resistant.
I usually pluck off and get rid of the infected leaves at first sight.
This will delay the time somewhat before they become skeletons.
I also prune in a open style and make sure there's lots of air
circulation.

Hope this helps.

--Reva Narasimhan
Zone 6 NJ

Bill:
This weekend, I was re-reading a chapter on roses, in the late Henry
Mitchell's book "The Essential Earthman". There's some good advice on
resistant varieties. Definitely worth buying the book. I see Barnes & Noble
has it available.
Doug

"Bill Oliver" wrote in message
...

As I noted in a previous post, I am recently getting interested in
taking a more active role in my back yard. We have an older place with
an "established" landscaping, meaning a bunch of plants that have been
allowed to run wild for 20 years. I have, for the past decade or so,
taken the Darwinistic approach to gardening -- plant lots of plants
more or less at random and cheer on the survivors.

Among the survivors are a number of old garden roses. They are very
bushy,
about 4 or 5 feet in diameter and about 6 feet high. They bloom like
crazy this time of the year -- there are probably 50 good-sized blooms
on each. The only thing I have done with them in the past decade has
been to cut them back from pathways so I could get in and out of the
backyard.

At the moment they are are very green, but in a couple of weeks, all
the leaves will turn yellow and fall off. It starts with a few
black spots, then the entire leaf turns yellow, and then falls
off. By the end of the summer, all I have are green skeletons of
the bushes with a few new leaves where new growth is. It looks
like something out of an Addams Family movie. The roses look like
death warmed over by fall, but come out hail and hearty in the
spring.

I live in suburban Maryland, near DC.

Any ideas of what this might be, and what I might do were I to
actually try to do something?

In article ,
Doug Kanter wrote:

Bill:
This weekend, I was re-reading a chapter on roses, in the late Henry
Mitchell's book "The Essential Earthman". There's some good advice on
resistant varieties. Definitely worth buying the book. I see Barnes & Noble
has it available.
Doug



Thanks!!

billo