On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 04:56:32 +0000, Registered User wrote:

I am about to move to an area in the Dallas/Ft. Worth
metroplex where the soil is a hard black clay. I have a neighbor that also
recently moved out there and has a small tractor with a tiller/front end
loader. Earlier today we made a few trips and brought in two trailer loads
of top soil from a sand pit. We tilled it into the clay soil and it seemed
to loosen the soil and make it more workable. They also have, "Padding"
sand that is used by construction workers before pouring concrete slabs...
the guy at the sand pit couldnt tell me which would make a better clay
additive. He seemed to think that the top soil had more plant nutrients,
but would be less likely to loosen the soil as well as the Padding Soil.
We are both pretty new to gardening and I was hoping someone could give us
some advice on making the clay soil more of a viable mix for growing a
vegetable garden. I really need something that when mixed with the clay
will prevent it from becoming so hard and compacted... I dont see anything
growing in that soil - without some sort of improvement.


Sand is a poor soil amendment. Work organic material, i.e., compost, into
the soil to give it better texture. Also, it will benefit you most to
have a soil test done for nutrients and composition. The soil lab will
give recommendations.

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 04:56:32 GMT, Registered User
wrote:

I am about to move to an area in the Dallas/Ft. Worth
metroplex where the soil is a hard black clay. I have a neighbor that
also recently moved out there and has a small tractor with a
tiller/front end loader. Earlier today we made a few trips and brought
in two trailer loads of top soil from a sand pit. We tilled it into
the clay soil and it seemed to loosen the soil and make it more
workable. They also have, "Padding" sand that is used by construction
workers before pouring concrete slabs... the guy at the sand pit
couldnt tell me which would make a better clay additive. He seemed to
think that the top soil had more plant nutrients, but would be less
likely to loosen the soil as well as the Padding Soil. We are both
pretty new to gardening and I was hoping someone could give us some
advice on making the clay soil more of a viable mix for growing a
vegetable garden. I really need something that when mixed with the
clay will prevent it from becoming so hard and compacted... I dont see
anything growing in that soil - without some sort of improvement.


Clay soil is actually better than sandy soil. At least clay has some
nutrients. Gypsum help break up clay soil. Working compost into the
clay soil is much better than adding sand. The compost will invite
earthworms and they too will help aerate the soil. Order a
truckload of compost for your garden and till it in.

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 05:43:49 +0000, Salty Thumb wrote:

Registered User wrote in
:

snip
likely to loosen the soil as well as the Padding Soil. We are both
pretty new to gardening and I was hoping someone could give us some
advice on making the clay soil more of a viable mix for growing a
vegetable garden. I really need something that when mixed with the clay
will prevent it from becoming so hard and compacted... I dont see
anything growing in that soil - without some sort of improvement.

I've heard that adding gypsum will help break up clay soil.


This will alter the pH.

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 05:43:49 +0000, Salty Thumb wrote:

Registered User wrote in
:

snip
likely to loosen the soil as well as the Padding Soil. We are both
pretty new to gardening and I was hoping someone could give us some
advice on making the clay soil more of a viable mix for growing a
vegetable garden. I really need something that when mixed with the clay
will prevent it from becoming so hard and compacted... I dont see
anything growing in that soil - without some sort of improvement.

I've heard that adding gypsum will help break up clay soil.


This will alter the pH.

In article ,
says...
I am about to move to an area in the Dallas/Ft. Worth
metroplex where the soil is a hard black clay. I have a neighbor that
also recently moved out there and has a small tractor with a
tiller/front end loader. Earlier today we made a few trips and brought
in two trailer loads of top soil from a sand pit. We tilled it into
the clay soil and it seemed to loosen the soil and make it more
workable. They also have, "Padding" sand that is used by construction
workers before pouring concrete slabs... the guy at the sand pit
couldnt tell me which would make a better clay additive. He seemed to
think that the top soil had more plant nutrients, but would be less
likely to loosen the soil as well as the Padding Soil. We are both
pretty new to gardening and I was hoping someone could give us some
advice on making the clay soil more of a viable mix for growing a
vegetable garden. I really need something that when mixed with the
clay will prevent it from becoming so hard and compacted... I dont see
anything growing in that soil - without some sort of improvement.

Here is a helpful link for you. http://froebuck.home.texas.net/toppage4.htm

Also check the Texas A&M site...should be plenty of help there too.

--
It is said that the early bird gets the worm,
but it is the second mouse that gets the cheese.

Lar. (to e-mail, get rid of the BUGS!!

Lotsa suggestions here so wouldn't it be a good idea to pose some of them to
your county extention agent? He may have another approach as well.




"Registered User" wrote in message
...
I am about to move to an area in the Dallas/Ft. Worth
metroplex where the soil is a hard black clay. I have a neighbor that
also recently moved out there and has a small tractor with a
tiller/front end loader. Earlier today we made a few trips and brought
in two trailer loads of top soil from a sand pit. We tilled it into
the clay soil and it seemed to loosen the soil and make it more
workable. They also have, "Padding" sand that is used by construction
workers before pouring concrete slabs... the guy at the sand pit
couldnt tell me which would make a better clay additive. He seemed to
think that the top soil had more plant nutrients, but would be less
likely to loosen the soil as well as the Padding Soil. We are both
pretty new to gardening and I was hoping someone could give us some
advice on making the clay soil more of a viable mix for growing a
vegetable garden. I really need something that when mixed with the
clay will prevent it from becoming so hard and compacted... I dont see
anything growing in that soil - without some sort of improvement.

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:45:21 -0600, WiGard opined:

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:10:22 +0000, escapee wrote:

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:45:28 -0600, WiGard opined:

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 05:43:49 +0000, Salty Thumb wrote:

Registered User wrote in
:

snip
likely to loosen the soil as well as the Padding Soil. We are both
pretty new to gardening and I was hoping someone could give us some
advice on making the clay soil more of a viable mix for growing a
vegetable garden. I really need something that when mixed with the
clay will prevent it from becoming so hard and compacted... I dont see
anything growing in that soil - without some sort of improvement.

I've heard that adding gypsum will help break up clay soil.


This will alter the pH.

Gypsum does not alter the pH of soil.



A handy reference page:

http://www.awgypsum.com/why_use_gypsum.htm

Apparently gypsum does affect pH.

The reference to it, originally, was that it would raise the pH, which was not
correct. It can neutralize it, but not raise it in already high pH soils. I
suppose I should have been more specific. I have gardened in Dallas soils, so
know the problems.

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 04:56:32 GMT, Registered User
wrote:

I am about to move to an area in the Dallas/Ft. Worth
metroplex where the soil is a hard black clay. I have a neighbor that
also recently moved out there and has a small tractor with a
tiller/front end loader. Earlier today we made a few trips and brought
in two trailer loads of top soil from a sand pit. We tilled it into
the clay soil and it seemed to loosen the soil and make it more
workable.

Compost, compost, compost. Organic matter. Clay soil appears to have
good nutrition -- it's the texture that's the problem. Real "topsoil"
is essentially compost/humus -- the top 1-3" of stuff covering a
relatively undisturbed site where plant matter has been accumulating
and decaying for some time, and migrating a bit into whatever kind of
dirt is underneath. "Topsoil" from a sand pit sounds like somewhat of
a contradiction in terms, although possible. Clay plus sand usually
produces something like cement. Clay plus sand plus organic material
produces 'loam' -- a good diet for plants. Compost doesn't provide a
great deal in terms of nutrients, but *greatly* improves water
retention/drainage, aeration, and general happiness of plants.

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:10:22 +0000, escapee wrote:

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:45:28 -0600, WiGard opined:

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 05:43:49 +0000, Salty Thumb wrote:

Registered User wrote in
:

snip
likely to loosen the soil as well as the Padding Soil. We are both
pretty new to gardening and I was hoping someone could give us some
advice on making the clay soil more of a viable mix for growing a
vegetable garden. I really need something that when mixed with the
clay will prevent it from becoming so hard and compacted... I dont see
anything growing in that soil - without some sort of improvement.

I've heard that adding gypsum will help break up clay soil.


This will alter the pH.

Gypsum does not alter the pH of soil.

I lived in Dallas for 6 years and I gardened in the black gumbo clay every
year of it. I amended my soil with tons of compost and I used lavasand,
which is readily available everywhere up in the Dallas area. Stop into
Northaven Garden Center or see them online first at www.nhg.com Also,
Rohde's Garden Center in Garland is a great resource for information.
Listen to J. Howard Garrett on 820 am on the weekends, Sat at 11a, Sun at
8a till noon. I can't stand him for personal reasons, but he does give
good information about soil amendment.

Adding sand is okay, but it's a waste of money. Adding compost is
superior to that, and making native and adapted plant selections is
appropriate. The junk they call "sandy loam" in Texas is just that, junk.
It's mined from dead lake beds and has no biota what so ever. It can
ruin your soil worse than it already is. You need to double dig or at the
very least till to a depth of 12 inches and raise the beds up. You don't
need to build anything for raised beds. Just fluff the existing soil when
it's not soaking wet, and you have pretty good soil.



http://www.awgypsum.com/why_use_gypsum.htm
It does effect pH.
Clay gets a bad wrap. Actually, clay soils are superior to sandy soils in
that they have very high contents of nutrients. However, those nutrients
are locked up in the elevated pH. If you use compost and more compost,
the soil will slowly, over time, mellow and you will have a pH closer to
7.5 than the 8.5-9.0 which most black clay soils have.

If you do use gypsum as an amendment (which has worked for me) try to find
the pellet form. I believe you can buy that at a garden center on 35
called, Strong's. They also have a nice selection of plant material, or
they did when I lived up there.

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:10:22 +0000, escapee wrote:

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:45:28 -0600, WiGard opined:

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 05:43:49 +0000, Salty Thumb wrote:

Registered User wrote in
:

snip
likely to loosen the soil as well as the Padding Soil. We are both
pretty new to gardening and I was hoping someone could give us some
advice on making the clay soil more of a viable mix for growing a
vegetable garden. I really need something that when mixed with the
clay will prevent it from becoming so hard and compacted... I dont see
anything growing in that soil - without some sort of improvement.

I've heard that adding gypsum will help break up clay soil.


This will alter the pH.

Gypsum does not alter the pH of soil.

I lived in Dallas for 6 years and I gardened in the black gumbo clay every
year of it. I amended my soil with tons of compost and I used lavasand,
which is readily available everywhere up in the Dallas area. Stop into
Northaven Garden Center or see them online first at www.nhg.com Also,
Rohde's Garden Center in Garland is a great resource for information.
Listen to J. Howard Garrett on 820 am on the weekends, Sat at 11a, Sun at
8a till noon. I can't stand him for personal reasons, but he does give
good information about soil amendment.

Adding sand is okay, but it's a waste of money. Adding compost is
superior to that, and making native and adapted plant selections is
appropriate. The junk they call "sandy loam" in Texas is just that, junk.
It's mined from dead lake beds and has no biota what so ever. It can
ruin your soil worse than it already is. You need to double dig or at the
very least till to a depth of 12 inches and raise the beds up. You don't
need to build anything for raised beds. Just fluff the existing soil when
it's not soaking wet, and you have pretty good soil.



http://www.awgypsum.com/why_use_gypsum.htm
It does effect pH.
Clay gets a bad wrap. Actually, clay soils are superior to sandy soils in
that they have very high contents of nutrients. However, those nutrients
are locked up in the elevated pH. If you use compost and more compost,
the soil will slowly, over time, mellow and you will have a pH closer to
7.5 than the 8.5-9.0 which most black clay soils have.

If you do use gypsum as an amendment (which has worked for me) try to find
the pellet form. I believe you can buy that at a garden center on 35
called, Strong's. They also have a nice selection of plant material, or
they did when I lived up there.

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:45:28 -0600, WiGard opined:

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 05:43:49 +0000, Salty Thumb wrote:

Registered User wrote in
:

snip
likely to loosen the soil as well as the Padding Soil. We are both
pretty new to gardening and I was hoping someone could give us some
advice on making the clay soil more of a viable mix for growing a
vegetable garden. I really need something that when mixed with the clay
will prevent it from becoming so hard and compacted... I dont see
anything growing in that soil - without some sort of improvement.

I've heard that adding gypsum will help break up clay soil.


This will alter the pH.

Gypsum does not alter the pH of soil.

I lived in Dallas for 6 years and I gardened in the black gumbo clay every year
of it. I amended my soil with tons of compost and I used lavasand, which is
readily available everywhere up in the Dallas area. Stop into Northaven Garden
Center or see them online first at www.nhg.com Also, Rohde's Garden Center in
Garland is a great resource for information. Listen to J. Howard Garrett on 820
am on the weekends, Sat at 11a, Sun at 8a till noon. I can't stand him for
personal reasons, but he does give good information about soil amendment.

Adding sand is okay, but it's a waste of money. Adding compost is superior to
that, and making native and adapted plant selections is appropriate. The junk
they call "sandy loam" in Texas is just that, junk. It's mined from dead lake
beds and has no biota what so ever. It can ruin your soil worse than it already
is. You need to double dig or at the very least till to a depth of 12 inches
and raise the beds up. You don't need to build anything for raised beds. Just
fluff the existing soil when it's not soaking wet, and you have pretty good
soil.

Clay gets a bad wrap. Actually, clay soils are superior to sandy soils in that
they have very high contents of nutrients. However, those nutrients are locked
up in the elevated pH. If you use compost and more compost, the soil will
slowly, over time, mellow and you will have a pH closer to 7.5 than the 8.5-9.0
which most black clay soils have.

If you do use gypsum as an amendment (which has worked for me) try to find the
pellet form. I believe you can buy that at a garden center on 35 called,
Strong's. They also have a nice selection of plant material, or they did when I
lived up there.

Padding "sand" or "soil"? The use of sand to improve clay soil
is
controversial, whereas pumping in organic matter is
well-accepted.

There are mixes out there (Web) that are designed specifically
to improve
clay soil.

Yes. Look for "Turface" or "TerraGreen" or "MuleMix." All are
so-called, soil conditioners and consist of high-fired clay
granules. They will NOT break down and serve to let air into the
soil. They're essentially inorganic, so you sill will have to
mix compost in, but compost doesn't really help heavy clays
breathe. You can buy those soil conditioners at feed and
fertilizer stores (Like Grayco in my area). They also are used
as surfaces for tracks and baseball infields, so the
groundskeeper at the local high school or college athletic
department may be able to help you find a different source.

Wal-Mart sells something similar (Schult's Soil Conditioner, or
something like that), but it comes in tiny -- VASTLY
overpriced -- bags that would be useless for your purposes. The
names listed above come in 40-60 pound bags (about $7.00 per bag,
last time I bought some -- I use it as a component of bonsai
soils).

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:10:22 +0000, escapee wrote:

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:45:28 -0600, WiGard opined:

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 05:43:49 +0000, Salty Thumb wrote:

Registered User wrote in
:

snip
likely to loosen the soil as well as the Padding Soil. We are both
pretty new to gardening and I was hoping someone could give us some
advice on making the clay soil more of a viable mix for growing a
vegetable garden. I really need something that when mixed with the
clay will prevent it from becoming so hard and compacted... I dont see
anything growing in that soil - without some sort of improvement.

I've heard that adding gypsum will help break up clay soil.


This will alter the pH.

Gypsum does not alter the pH of soil.



A handy reference page:

http://www.awgypsum.com/why_use_gypsum.htm

Apparently gypsum does affect pH.