Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

I see that home center sells some chemical weed killers that are
supposed to be used in a flower garden. Are they good? Can I safely
use those chemicals around plants that I have planted in the garden? I
don't hear much about this type of product. Seem like I hear mostly
about similar products that we use in lawn, but not in a garden.

I would like to find a way to keep weeds out of my flower garden in
order to reduce the never ending task of pulling weeds out from the
garden.

Thanks.

Jay Chan

----------------------------------------------------------
The following is the reason why I want to use weeds killer instead of
mulch. This is not directly related to this post. But I mention the
reason here just in case someone wonders why I don't use mulch.
----------------------------------------------------------

I know I could have put mulch to suppress weeds and to ease the task
of pulling out weeds. In the first year after I put mulch in the
flower garden, I found that the mulch really helped me to reduce weeds
in my flower garden. But a couple years later, the mulch is pretty
much rotted and decomposed to be similar to soil. This means it no
longer functions as mulch.

If I keep adding mulch, I will do more harm than good. The reason is
that the flower garden is a rised bed around the house foundation.
There is only 8" clearance between the mulch and the wooden structure
of my house. I am afraid that putting more mulch will reduce the
clearance to a point that I will invite termites into my house.
Actually, I may decide to remove the existing mulch from around the
foundation garden just to increase the clearance between the wooden
structure from the soil.

And I really don't like to use inorganic mulch (such as stones) in
areas where I will be actively doing planting every year.

I guess the other alternative is to replace the existing mulch with
new mulch, and do this every two years or so. This sounds like a lot
of work though; I probably prefer hand pulling weeds than replacing
the mulch.

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Mulch. You are not going to get a huge buildup as it breaks down over time.
Every 5-7 years, you can remove the top layer, but you are not going to get
a huge buildup by adding mulch annually.

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Mulch. You are not going to get a huge buildup as it breaks down over time.
Every 5-7 years, you can remove the top layer, but you are not going to get
a huge buildup by adding mulch annually.

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Jay Chan wrote:

I know I could have put mulch to suppress weeds and to ease the task
of pulling out weeds. In the first year after I put mulch in the
flower garden, I found that the mulch really helped me to reduce weeds
in my flower garden. But a couple years later, the mulch is pretty
much rotted and decomposed to be similar to soil. This means it no
longer functions as mulch.

If I keep adding mulch, I will do more harm than good. The reason is
that the flower garden is a rised bed around the house foundation.
There is only 8" clearance between the mulch and the wooden structure
of my house. I am afraid that putting more mulch will reduce the
clearance to a point that I will invite termites into my house.

Unless your raised bed around the house is sitting on a slab of
concrete, the soil and mulch will settle over time, and by the time the
mulch "no longer functions as mulch", you'll probably have enough
settling that you'll be able to put new mulch right on top.

You could also use a stone or gravel mulch right next to the house --
like the first 6-12" from the foundation, and start the organic mulch
away from the house. You shouldn't be planting that close to the house,
and you can probably find a stone that goes well with your organic
mulch. For example, red lava rock would work well in the back of a bed
mulched with a red or brown bark mulch.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Blatant Plug: Spend your Amazon gift certificates he
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/associateshop.html

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"Sunflower" wrote in message . ..
Mulch. You are not going to get a huge buildup as it breaks down over time.
Every 5-7 years, you can remove the top layer, but you are not going to get
a huge buildup by adding mulch annually.

Why do you suppose archeological finds are usually under 10-15 feet of
soil? They don't sink, they get covered up with mulched plant
material.

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Unless your raised bed around the house is sitting on a slab of
concrete, the soil and mulch will settle over time, and by the time the
mulch "no longer functions as mulch", you'll probably have enough
settling that you'll be able to put new mulch right on top.

You are right to say that the mulch will settle. The mulch in my
garden probably has settled by half of the original thickness after
three years. I probably can put in one more inch of mulch over the
existing mulch without reducing the clearance around the house
foundation by too much.

Thanks for pointing this out.

You could also use a stone or gravel mulch right next to the house --
like the first 6-12" from the foundation, and start the organic mulch
away from the house.

I have thought of that. But I have a feeling that the organic mulch
will spill over to the inorganic mulch and I will have a hard time
cleaning the mix of organic mulch and inorganic mulch. This is one of
the reason why I don't like to use inorganic mulch.

Seem like no one suggests using weed killer. Oh well...

Jay Chan

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Try landscape fabric. It blocks a lot of weeds and makes pulling the
others easier. However, manufacturers recommend you cover the fabric
with X inches (cm) of mulch.

As for using herbicides, I never had to do it, so I don't know. (Have
had landscape fabric installed 2-3 years now).

Actually, I had already had landscape fabric installed before I put
mulch. As I said, it helps in the first one or two years. Now, four
years later, I find that the following things makes it increasing less
effective in blocking weeds:

- I like to plant new stuffs (such as annuals). Therefore, I keep
digging through the landscape fabrics; this not only making holes on
the landscape fabrics, but also causing soil to be spreaded on top of
the mulch and got all mixed together.

- As mentioned previously, the mulch has decomposed significantly and
become more like soil than mulch.

Moreover, I become less and less like to use landscape fabrics (and
mulch) because it prevents me from easily adding fertilizer or other
goodies directly to the soil. Seem like the only way to add fertilizer
is using liquid fertilizer.

Thanks.

Jay Chan

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...
Try landscape fabric. It blocks a lot of weeds and makes pulling the
others easier. However, manufacturers recommend you cover the fabric
with X inches (cm) of mulch.

As for using herbicides, I never had to do it, so I don't know. (Have
had landscape fabric installed 2-3 years now).

Actually, I had already had landscape fabric installed before I put
mulch. As I said, it helps in the first one or two years. Now, four
years later, I find that the following things makes it increasing less
effective in blocking weeds:

- I like to plant new stuffs (such as annuals). Therefore, I keep
digging through the landscape fabrics; this not only making holes on
the landscape fabrics, but also causing soil to be spreaded on top of
the mulch and got all mixed together.

- As mentioned previously, the mulch has decomposed significantly and
become more like soil than mulch.

Moreover, I become less and less like to use landscape fabrics (and
mulch) because it prevents me from easily adding fertilizer or other
goodies directly to the soil. Seem like the only way to add fertilizer
is using liquid fertilizer.

Thanks.

Jay Chan

Your last paragraph is exactly right. Gimmicks get in the way eventually.
So:

Get yourself a good weeding tool that allows you to do the job WITHOUT
KNEELING. With the right tool, it's effortless. And, weeding slows you down
long enough to notice things happening (good or bad) in the garden. The
trick is to make the whole thing easy.

www.smithandhawken.com
Go to tools, digging and cultivation. Check out the Precision Weeder hand
tool (for on-the-knees weeding - an AMAZING tool), and the Long-Handled
Weeder. I've been using these two tools for years. Not only do they take
care of weeding, but they also fluff the upper layer of soil slightly, which
helps it retain moisture. Keep a sharpening stone in the garage to touch up
the blades when necessary.

No experience with this one, but a friend swears by it:
Cape cod weeder:
www.seedsofchange.com
Go to the tools section, and then to the Digging and Cultivating section.

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...

Moreover, I become less and less like to use landscape fabrics (and
mulch) because it prevents me from easily adding fertilizer or other
goodies directly to the soil. Seem like the only way to add
fertilizer
is using liquid fertilizer.

If you using mulch and without landscape fabrics, adding fertilizer in
the mulch are better than add it to soil. I read some articles about
this before, but sorry had forgot the details.

I prefer to add fertilizer to my compost than soil or mulch, it will
buffer up the nutrient and mix up better in the compost.

Regards,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:

Moreover, I become less and less like to use landscape fabrics (and
mulch) because it prevents me from easily adding fertilizer or other
goodies directly to the soil. Seem like the only way to add
fertilizer is using liquid fertilizer.

Thanks.

Jay Chan

Your last paragraph is exactly right. Gimmicks get in the way
eventually. So:

Get yourself a good weeding tool that allows you to do the job WITHOUT
KNEELING. With the right tool, it's effortless. And, weeding slows you
down long enough to notice things happening (good or bad) in the
garden. The trick is to make the whole thing easy.

The other day, I weeded my flower beds, which consisted of bending over
to pull a total of 4 weeds with my bare hand (no glove even). The weeds
were reasonably sized, 3-5" across but had the root systems of a 2 day
old pansy.

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

I'm using large pine bark nuggets and haven't noticed a problem with
that. What kind of mulch are you using?

I use shredded cedar chips mulch. Seem like large nuggets that you use
work better than shredder chips because they last longer. I even found
two groups of termintes in the shredder cedar chips after I had put
them in the flower garden for just two years. This is one of the
reason why I want to remove the mulch (but I keep delaying doing this
for one thing or the others). I probably need to remove them and put
them in a compost pile (that I should have done one year ago).

Do you think termintes will bother large pine bark nuggets? How long
do you think the large nuggets will remain effective in keeping
termintes out?

I don't add stuff to my flower bed, but I guess you could make more flaps
next to your plants and stick stuff in a pile under them. If you're
feeling the need to mix things in, well that's another story.

Sooner or later, you will need to put amendment to the soil, right?
How do you get away from doing this?

Jay Chan

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

If you using mulch and without landscape fabrics, adding fertilizer in
the mulch are better than add it to soil. I read some articles about
this before, but sorry had forgot the details.

Why will this work? Does this have something to do with the mulch may
absorb the liquid fertilizer and slowly release it, or something like
that?

I prefer to add fertilizer to my compost than soil or mulch, it will
buffer up the nutrient and mix up better in the compost.

I heard that we need to add fertilizer or blood meal into compost pile
because the composting process uses a lot of nitrogen or something
like that. Is this one of the reason why you add fertilizer into your
compost pile? In fact, I have already been doing this.

The problem is that there is no easy way to get the compost into the
soil without removing the mulch and the landscape fabric. So far, I
can only use my compost into the vegetable garden. But I cannot use it
in my flower garden near the house foundation because it is covered
with mulch and landscape fabric. So I end up dumping all the remaining
finished compost into the vegetable garden, and I have to use liquid
fertilizer onto the flower garden. Well, at least, the green peppers
are doing well (and they taste great too).

Jay Chan

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Hi Jay Chan,

As a guy work by project basic in software development, I got a habit
to scan through all the available information, pinpoint and go into
the detail what are applicable to the project, but ignore all the rest
that is not relevant.

Since I will not supplement nutrients by top dressing, so I donot try
to memorize or keep notes on this. What I recalled may not be
reliable.

My English vocabulary are computer line oriented, I know very little
about English in other field. So I may use wrong words.

Sorry about this. :-(

If you using mulch and without landscape fabrics, adding
fertilizer in
the mulch are better than add it to soil. I read some articles
about
this before, but sorry had forgot the details.

Why will this work? Does this have something to do with the mulch
may
absorb the liquid fertilizer and slowly release it, or something
like
that?

For what I know, nutrient availability are mainly affect by two
factor:
1. Lost by leaching, erosion(with soil), volatilization(nitrogen)...
2. Fixation/bind with other nitrient.

Mulch and the life form(fungus, insect...) in it will hold the
nutrient from fertilizer(reduce the nutrient lost), and slowly release
it(reduce nutrient binding).

I prefer to add fertilizer to my compost than soil or mulch, it
will
buffer up the nutrient and mix up better in the compost.

I heard that we need to add fertilizer or blood meal into compost
pile
because the composting process uses a lot of nitrogen or something
like that. Is this one of the reason why you add fertilizer into
your
compost pile? In fact, I have already been doing this.

What I try to say are, if the nutrient from material that make up the
compost are not enough to supply what plant needed, we can either add
the fertilizer(synthetic/organic) to soil/mulch or compost heap.

Add fertilizer to soil may cause lost and bindup. Add to mulch, it
will not distribute evenly, and will cause mulch decompose faster if
it contain nitrogen(mulch suppose to be long lasting). Add to compost
heap, it will mixed up nicely by man(turning the compost) or other
life form(moving/carry around).

The problem is that there is no easy way to get the compost into the
soil without removing the mulch and the landscape fabric.

You can top dress the compost/fertilizer on the mulch, the nutrient
release will bring down to plant root by rain water in liquid
form. But somehow this will also encourage weed grow on top of your
landscape fabric.

I donot and will not use landscape fabric. I do adding new mulch on
top of old mulch to maintain the thickness of mulch.

HTH,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

As a guy work by project basic in software development, I got a habit
to scan through all the available information, ... but ignore all the rest
that is not relevant.

Same here, same here.

My English vocabulary are computer line oriented, I know very little
about English in other field. So I may use wrong words.

For what I know, nutrient availability are mainly affect by two
factor:
1. Lost by leaching, erosion(with soil), volatilization(nitrogen)...
2. Fixation/bind with other nitrient.

"Leaching" and "erosion" are not the words that I normally use (I
always need to look up my electronic dictionary for these type of
words). Seem like you are ahead of me in this area.

You can top dress the compost/fertilizer on the mulch, the nutrient
release will bring down to plant root by rain water in liquid
form. But somehow this will also encourage weed grow on top of your
landscape fabric.

I donot and will not use landscape fabric. I do adding new mulch on
top of old mulch to maintain the thickness of mulch.

This is something that I still cannot figure out how to solve -- I
mean I cannot solve it without a lot of effort.

Jay Chan

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...
As a guy work by project basic in software development, I got a habit
to scan through all the available information, ... but ignore all the
rest
that is not relevant.

Same here, same here.

My English vocabulary are computer line oriented, I know very little
about English in other field. So I may use wrong words.

For what I know, nutrient availability are mainly affect by two
factor:
1. Lost by leaching, erosion(with soil), volatilization(nitrogen)...
2. Fixation/bind with other nitrient.

"Leaching" and "erosion" are not the words that I normally use (I
always need to look up my electronic dictionary for these type of
words). Seem like you are ahead of me in this area.

You can top dress the compost/fertilizer on the mulch, the nutrient
release will bring down to plant root by rain water in liquid
form. But somehow this will also encourage weed grow on top of your
landscape fabric.

I donot and will not use landscape fabric. I do adding new mulch on
top of old mulch to maintain the thickness of mulch.

This is something that I still cannot figure out how to solve -- I
mean I cannot solve it without a lot of effort.

Jay Chan

Jay, you're making this into too big a problem. As I mentioned before, get
the right tools and weeding can be a pleasure. You can do it with a beer in
one hand.

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...
As a guy work by project basic in software development, I got a
habit
to scan through all the available information, ... but ignore all
the rest
that is not relevant.

Same here, same here.

Are you also a software developer? In what type of environment? End
user or vendor? Application development or system programming?

"Leaching" and "erosion" are not the words that I normally use (I
always need to look up my electronic dictionary for these type of
words). Seem like you are ahead of me in this area.

Agriculture are the second best of my English vocabulary, but far from
computer. :-)

You can top dress the compost/fertilizer on the mulch, the
nutrient
release will bring down to plant root by rain water in liquid
form. But somehow this will also encourage weed grow on top of
your
landscape fabric.

I donot and will not use landscape fabric. I do adding new mulch
on
top of old mulch to maintain the thickness of mulch.

This is something that I still cannot figure out how to solve -- I
mean I cannot solve it without a lot of effort.

No single solution will fit all the problem. The way you choose will
depend on your plan in mind and your current situation.

If your garden are small, hand weeding may be the best route for you
as what Doug Kanter suggested.

I'm going to large scale but without heavy machinary after the initial
grading and soil buildup, so I choose mulch.

Regards,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Are you also a software developer? In what type of environment? End
user or vendor? Application development or system programming?

I develop applications for our company -- mainly support the
production line operation.

If your garden are small, hand weeding may be the best route for you
as what Doug Kanter suggested.

My garden is small; but my time allocated to gardening is even
smaller... I will try the hand weeder tools that Doug Kanter has
suggested. They sound promising.

I'm going to large scale but without heavy machinary after the initial
grading and soil buildup, so I choose mulch.

Good luck with whatever way that you choose for your garden.

Jay Chan

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Cape cod weeder:
www.seedsofchange.com

It looks promising. But it is only 18" that seems like too short for
me.

www.smithandhawken.com ... Precision Weeder hand tool ... Long-Handled
Weeder.

The long handle version looks very good. Then, I can stand outside or
just inside the flower bed and remove weeds deep inside the flower
bed. My flower bed is almost 6-ft wide; therefore, a long handle
should come in handy. I probably will give it a try instead of using
chemical weed killer.

I am not so sure whether I will try the short version. I cannot see
myself walking around carrying two weeding tools.

I assume I am supposed to use this tool likes this:
- Place the blade over the weed and dig under it.
- Pull the blade toward myself; this action will cut the root of the
weed.
- Leave the weed where it falls and let it decompose.

I have two questions:

- Do you think I can use this tool in area where there are a lot of
weeds? Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)
with many weeds very quickly? Here, the area is still have around
1-inch of mulch left.

- Will it work if the area is already covered with landscape fabric
under the mulch? Will I be cutting through the landscape fabric? No
big loss; I don't like the landscape fabric anyway.

Thanks.

Jay Chan

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...

Good luck with whatever way that you choose for your garden.

Thanks! :-)

I intend to setup a community, the food raise are use for support the
community. I don't know should call it as garden or farm. g

Cheers,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...
Cape cod weeder:
www.seedsofchange.com

It looks promising. But it is only 18" that seems like too short for
me.

www.smithandhawken.com ... Precision Weeder hand tool ... Long-Handled
Weeder.

The long handle version looks very good. Then, I can stand outside or
just inside the flower bed and remove weeds deep inside the flower
bed. My flower bed is almost 6-ft wide; therefore, a long handle
should come in handy. I probably will give it a try instead of using
chemical weed killer.

Standing outside the bed is good because you won't constantly compress the
soil with your weight. The long tool contributes to this good practice. But,
if there's a spot you can't reach, buy just one piece of flagstone or some
such thing and locate it so you can step into the middle.


I am not so sure whether I will try the short version. I cannot see
myself walking around carrying two weeding tools.

Jay....be serious. Put down one tool and pick up the other. Or, go to Home
Depot & buy a large paint bucket for three bucks, and on of those canvas
things that hangs in the bucket and has slots for tools. I think it's called
a Bucketmouth, although there are other brands, too.



I assume I am supposed to use this tool likes this:
- Place the blade over the weed and dig under it.
- Pull the blade toward myself; this action will cut the root of the
weed.
- Leave the weed where it falls and let it decompose.

Correct. You glide the tool about 1" beneath the surface. But, you have to
get to know the root systems of your flowers, or you could slice them, too.
Very rare occurrence. Just stay a few inches away from the stems. As far as
leaving the weeds to decompose, do that with some, but not those which have
already developed flowers or seeds.

BUT: Keep in mind that this is NOT the tool to use for a garden which is an
utter disaster, especially if it's full of weeds with very tough or woody
stems. This tools is designed for working in a garden which has been
properly put in shape - after the big Spring cleanup.

Another tool: Go to the Smith & Hawken site I provided for you earlier. Go
to Tools, Digging & Cultivation, and look at the Gardenia hand rake. See the
orange handle? It's got a knob so you can remove the short handle and
replace it with a long one, so you can work standing up. Gardenia makes an
entire system of such tools. Memorize the colors and visit some local garden
stores, or call around first. Get the little rake and the long handle. Now,
you have the best tool in the world for removing lose stuff from between
tightly spaced plants.

My neighbors sometimes joke about how my raised vegetable beds look like
freshly dug graves. If anyone tried to make off with my Gardenia tools (and
a few others), the graves would not seem like a joke afterward. :-) These
are really great tools.



I have two questions:

- Do you think I can use this tool in area where there are a lot of
weeds? Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)
with many weeds very quickly? Here, the area is still have around
1-inch of mulch left.

I used this tool to manage a 25x8 vegetable garden. No problem. Keep in mind
that as the season progresses and your flowers get bigger, they should shade
out many of the weeds, so the job should get easier. And, some weeds really
don't matter anyway.


- Will it work if the area is already covered with landscape fabric
under the mulch? Will I be cutting through the landscape fabric? No
big loss; I don't like the landscape fabric anyway.

I've only handled landscape fabric in the store, but never used it. So, my
instinct would be to get down on hands & knees with a razor knife and remove
the fabric first. Otherwise, any tool might snag the fabric, pull it
sideways, and break the stems of tender plants.

In one of his newspaper columns, garden writer Henry Mitchell mentioned how
funny it is when people go to Europe, visit famous gardens like those at
Versailles, and comment about what amazing work the French kings had done
for them 300 years ago. They forget the fact that the beautiful garden
they're seeing is the result of just one thing: The work done yesterday. It
sounds to me like you're trying to create a situation that cannot exist: a
garden which needs no maintenance. If you want it to be beautiful, it'll
require a little time each week. And if you make it beautiful, it'll be a
pleasure to do the work.

The best you can hope for is this: Once or twice each season, you'll have to
do major work, probably on your knees, getting the garden as clean as you
can. Get to know which weeds appear at what time of year, and manage them
accordingly. Those with seeds & flowers, you hack away and remove completely
from the garden. The leafy ones can be left on the surface. In the summer
heat, they'll be shriveled up within an hour. Some weeds look innocent on
Monday and develop roots of steel by Friday. Get to know those, so when you
see them on Monday, you don't say "I'll deal with it on Friday". If you do
the hard work correctly, the rest of the season should be easy. And, if you
do things right, each year should become easier. After 20 years in the same
vegetable garden, mine was virtually effortless.

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Come to think of it, I did dig a hole next to a rose bush and buried a
couple of banana peels (potassium, etc) down there. I'm not really into
growing flowers, so if I needed a specific amendment, I probably wouldn't
know it.

Seem like you don't need to add any amendment to your garden yet.

Seem like if we need to add amendment to the soil where it is covered
in landscape fabric, we will have to open/remove the landscape fabric
partially or completely. This sounds like something that we need to
schedule it in advance (such as a plan like "I may need to remove the
landscape fabric after x years if a soil test indicates that the soil
is lack of something, and then I can put the landscape fabric back").

I am sure that this can be done. I just didn't think of this when I
put the landscape fabrics to my flower garden a couple years ago.
Without knowing this in advance and making a committment to do this, I
am now kind of surprised by the idea of removing and putting back the
landscape fabrics.

Honestly, I don't really have any better idea either. If I don't put
mulch on it, I will have to deal with a lot more weeds, and I may have
a hard time to remove weeds if they have formed solid root into the
soil. If I put mulch without landscape fabrics, the mulch will be
mixed with soil, and I will still need to deal with more weeds. If I
put mulch and landscape fabrics, I will have to remove/open landscape
fabrics to add amendment. Seem like I am better off sticking with
making as little change as possible; this means I should remove the
mulch that is infected with termintes (this is the minimum that I
should do), leave the landscape fabric there, and put fresh new mulch
(probably the kind that you use). Also order a long handle weeder to
remove weeds that manage to grow among the mulch. And worry about
adding amendment later.

This sounds like a plan.

Jay Chan

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...
Come to think of it, I did dig a hole next to a rose bush and buried a
couple of banana peels (potassium, etc) down there. I'm not really into
growing flowers, so if I needed a specific amendment, I probably
wouldn't
know it.

Seem like you don't need to add any amendment to your garden yet.

Seem like if we need to add amendment to the soil where it is covered
in landscape fabric, we will have to open/remove the landscape fabric
partially or completely. This sounds like something that we need to
schedule it in advance (such as a plan like "I may need to remove the
landscape fabric after x years if a soil test indicates that the soil
is lack of something, and then I can put the landscape fabric back").

I am sure that this can be done. I just didn't think of this when I
put the landscape fabrics to my flower garden a couple years ago.
Without knowing this in advance and making a committment to do this, I
am now kind of surprised by the idea of removing and putting back the
landscape fabrics.

Honestly, I don't really have any better idea either. If I don't put
mulch on it, I will have to deal with a lot more weeds, and I may have
a hard time to remove weeds if they have formed solid root into the
soil. If I put mulch without landscape fabrics, the mulch will be
mixed with soil, and I will still need to deal with more weeds. If I
put mulch and landscape fabrics, I will have to remove/open landscape
fabrics to add amendment. Seem like I am better off sticking with
making as little change as possible; this means I should remove the
mulch that is infected with termintes (this is the minimum that I
should do), leave the landscape fabric there, and put fresh new mulch
(probably the kind that you use). Also order a long handle weeder to
remove weeds that manage to grow among the mulch. And worry about
adding amendment later.

This sounds like a plan.

If I were you, I would pull out the landscape fabric, use wet newspaper
for weed suppression, and follow the lazy gardeners guide to........ lazy
gardening.

Lasagna Gardening
http://www.motherearthnews.com/menar...173-050-01.htm

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"Salty Thumb" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:

Moreover, I become less and less like to use landscape fabrics (and
mulch) because it prevents me from easily adding fertilizer or other
goodies directly to the soil. Seem like the only way to add
fertilizer is using liquid fertilizer.

Thanks.

Jay Chan

Your last paragraph is exactly right. Gimmicks get in the way
eventually. So:

Get yourself a good weeding tool that allows you to do the job WITHOUT
KNEELING. With the right tool, it's effortless. And, weeding slows you
down long enough to notice things happening (good or bad) in the
garden. The trick is to make the whole thing easy.

I have used one of these for several yrs. It very effective and pretty
effortless.

http://www.hound-dog.com/weed_hound.htm


Tyler

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

If I were you, I would pull out the landscape fabric, use wet newspaper
for weed suppression, and follow the lazy gardeners guide to........ lazy
gardening.

The landscape fabric is already there. I installed it a couple years
ago. I would have to remove the landscape fabric and replace it with
newspaper if I followed your advice. That would be more work for me
not less.

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper instead
of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using
newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble of
putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all
the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric
should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason of
using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

Jay Chan

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...
If I were you, I would pull out the landscape fabric, use wet newspaper
for weed suppression, and follow the lazy gardeners guide to........
lazy
gardening.

The landscape fabric is already there. I installed it a couple years
ago. I would have to remove the landscape fabric and replace it with
newspaper if I followed your advice. That would be more work for me
not less.

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper instead
of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using
newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble of
putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all
the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric
should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason of
using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

Jay Chan

Newspaper will decompose gradually, and if you want to add solid
"amendments", like compost, before the newspaper breaks down completely, all
you have to do is poke holes in it with your garden fork.

Jay, I'm curious about two things:

1) In any given week, how many hours of work do you think is appropriate to
keep your garden in shape?

2) During the "special weeks", at the beginning & end of season, how many
hours of work do you expect?

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

I'm outstanding with my job, so sometime when I asked a question,
people tend to think I'm "testing" them. The fact is, I really don't
know or just don't understand. :-(

Your words touching me. g So, I will try my best to reply you. ;-)

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper
instead
of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using
newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble
of
putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all
the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric
should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason
of
using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

After some thinking, I think comparing two may make it easier to
understand.

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment.
Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by roots.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters.
Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or else
only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid form,
but not much of organic matter.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done!
Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape fabric on
top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric that
have plant root grow into it.

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there, add
some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it can
last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this will
not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

HTH,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...
If I were you, I would pull out the landscape fabric, use wet newspaper
for weed suppression, and follow the lazy gardeners guide to........
lazy
gardening.

The landscape fabric is already there. I installed it a couple years
ago. I would have to remove the landscape fabric and replace it with
newspaper if I followed your advice. That would be more work for me
not less.

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper instead
of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using
newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble of
putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all
the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric
should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason of
using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

Well, Wong stated very good reasons and I agree with them, so I won't
repeat them here. I went to totally organic, lasagna gardening two years
ago, and my flower beds have never been better and have few weeds. It's all
in feeding the soil and feeding the earthworms. Plastic landscape fabric
defeats all those good things from happening.
And, I do much less work, since I just throw a new layer of mulch on top
and don't even work it in, just like Nature does. This retains the basic
soil structure and doesn't disturb all the biological organisms.

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"nswong" wrote in message
...
"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

I'm outstanding with my job, so sometime when I asked a question,
people tend to think I'm "testing" them. The fact is, I really don't
know or just don't understand. :-(

Your words touching me. g So, I will try my best to reply you. ;-)

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper
instead
of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using
newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble
of
putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all
the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric
should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason
of
using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

After some thinking, I think comparing two may make it easier to
understand.

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment.
Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by roots.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters.
Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or else
only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid form,
but not much of organic matter.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done!
Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape fabric on
top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric that
have plant root grow into it.

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there, add
some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it can
last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this will
not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

Thanks for the excellent analysis. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

wouldn't newspaper negate "organic".... ?
Unless you get a newspaper printed with organic ink... : )

-j


"nswong" wrote in message
...
"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

I'm outstanding with my job, so sometime when I asked a question,
people tend to think I'm "testing" them. The fact is, I really don't
know or just don't understand. :-(

Your words touching me. g So, I will try my best to reply you. ;-)

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper
instead
of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using
newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble
of
putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all
the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric
should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason
of
using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

After some thinking, I think comparing two may make it easier to
understand.

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment.
Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by roots.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters.
Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or else
only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid form,
but not much of organic matter.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done!
Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape fabric on
top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric that
have plant root grow into it.

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there, add
some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it can
last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this will
not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

HTH,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Almost all newspaper in this country is printed with soy based ink.
Personally, I'm not crazy about the newspaper idea, but you could do much
worse things to yourself than use it as mulch.

"jay" wrote in message
...
wouldn't newspaper negate "organic".... ?
Unless you get a newspaper printed with organic ink... : )

-j


"nswong" wrote in message
...
"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

I'm outstanding with my job, so sometime when I asked a question,
people tend to think I'm "testing" them. The fact is, I really don't
know or just don't understand. :-(

Your words touching me. g So, I will try my best to reply you. ;-)

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper
instead
of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using
newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble
of
putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all
the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric
should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason
of
using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

After some thinking, I think comparing two may make it easier to
understand.

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment.
Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by roots.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters.
Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or else
only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid form,
but not much of organic matter.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done!
Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape fabric on
top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric that
have plant root grow into it.

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there, add
some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it can
last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this will
not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

HTH,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

Thanks for the excellent analysis. I couldn't have said it better
myself.

Thanks for your compliment. :-)

Cheers,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"jay" wrote in message
...

wouldn't newspaper negate "organic".... ?
Unless you get a newspaper printed with organic ink... : )

Nowaday, most ink use for newspaper are soy based. :-)

Look at the Google search result below.

At my impression, for weeds management, mulch are mostly relate to
no-till, organic are heavy tillage with machinary. But there is
something call organic no-till, that is relied on heavy/deep mulch.
But I may be wrong. g

Regards,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Google Search: mulch newspaper soy Web Images Groups
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Web Results 1 - 10 of about 592 for mulch newspaper soy. (0.13
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Newspapers as mulch material
.... June 14, 1998. Editors note: I've asked every newspaper I ever
used
as mulch what they used as ink and they all said soy based. ...
supak.com/mort/newspapers.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

Gardening - Five Must-Have Ingredients for the Organic Gardener's ...
.... most newspapers are now printed with soy-based inks ... use this
method is
to place the
newspaper or cardboard ... springtime, the weeds are dead, the mulch
has
degraded ...
www.pioneerthinking.com/tv-organictoolkit2.html - 30k - Cached -
Similar pages

Good Enough to Eat: Using paper as mulch is colored by several ...
.... The PI uses soy-based colored inks; you can call ... Typically,
they're not
printed by
the newspaper, and their ... shredded office paper or newsprint work
as a mulch?
....
seattlepi.nwsource.com/ nwgardens/163035_goodtoeat04.html - 21k -
Cached -
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Marvelous Mulches | NRCS
.... organisms. Straw, shredded newspaper (soy-based ink only), and
grass
clippings are popular mulches that decompose easily. Popular ...
www.nrcs.usda.gov/feature/backyard/mrvmulch.html - 12k - Cached -
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Newspaper Mulch/add nitrogen? . ...
.... I'd like to mention soy-ink newspaper in an article I'm writing
about mulch
and
weed control, but won't be able to if I can't address the issue of
whether ...
www.ibiblio.org/rge/archive/970828_2970.html - 4k - Cached - Similar
pages

newspaper mulch
... The use of newspaper as a mulch may or may not be "organic"
because
... Most black
ink used in most newspaper is soy based which would probably be OK
....
www.ibiblio.org/rge/archive/980523_9875.html - 4k - Cached - Similar
pages
[ More results from www.ibiblio.org ]

The New Homemaker: Merits of Mulching
.... kind of ink they use. Soy based newspaper inks are nontoxic, and
fine to use for mulching. Because newspaper by itself is light ...
www.newhomemaker.com/hands/garden/mulch.html - 23k - Cached - Similar
pages

Links to General Emergency Preparedness Information presented by ...
.... herb + More cake-in-a-jar recipes + Newspaper Logs + Oil ... y2k
phone tip +
Potatoes
in the mulch + Smells in ... soya grits + Solar water distilling + Soy
cakes +
Soy ...
www.instantknowledgenews.com/P134.HTM - 78k - Cached - Similar pages

How do you recycle newspaper
.... With the advent of soy and other natural inks, papers can be
utilized for
.... Another
way to recycle newspapers is in the garden, using the newspaper as
mulch. ...
utut.essortment.com/newspaperrecycl_piz.htm - 5k - Cached - Similar
pages

The Value of Mulching Plants
.... I would like this to be used. Are you interested in this? "Dear
student,
I do not use newspaper mulch unless the ink is soy ink and safe. ...
http://www.organic-growers.com/forum...Question34.htm - 5k - Cached -
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Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

Personally, I'm not crazy about the newspaper idea, but you could do
much
worse things to yourself than use it as mulch.

I never try newspaper, but from what I read, I believe it's good for
organic no-till home gardenning. Old newspaper are available to
nearly
each home, using as a mulch are another choice from recycle, and far
better than go to landfill.

I don't using it because I'm going to large scale and sustainable, and
will try to avoid any external input. Instead of buying some old
newspaper, I prefer use plant debris from my land as mulch.

Regards,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Xref: kermit rec.gardens:284943

"nswong" wrote in
:

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment.
Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers are primarly carbon. According to one source[1] 'paper' (not
necessarily newspaper) contains 150-200:1 C/N, compared to sawdust at
100-500:1. Adding carbon will quite possibly detract from the amount of
N available to a plant. Adding N to compensate will degrade the weed
blocking utility of the newspaper as decomposition accelerates.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume carbon is of limited value
as a nutrient amendment, as plants (primarily?) obtain carbon from
atmospheric carbon dioxide during photosynthesis. At any rate, plants
do *excrete* carbon from their roots after periods of elevated carbon
dioxide[2].

However, I'll concede that the newspaper and newspaper debris may have
indirect and significant benefits (functioning similarly to deciduous
leaf litter) in providing habitat and food for beneficial insects and
microbes and enhancing soil structure.

While not directly contributing materiel, it is possible that landscape
fabric made of polyester (and perhaps also polypropylene) can fixate
minor amounts of atmospheric nitrogen via wind action and electrostatic
effect[3].

Yes, newspapers need to be replaced often compared to landscape fabric.
To me, this is not an advantage in permanent or semi-permanent
installations.

[1] http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/horticulture/g810.htm "Table I.
Carbon/Nitrogen Ratios of Some Common Organic Materials"
[2] http://www.co2science.org/subject/r/summaries/roots.htm
[3] http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/02/Spring/chubb.html "Findings"

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Unless nightcrawlers will chew a hole through newspaper to open their
covered burrow (quite possibly true), unbroken newspaper is as much a
barrier as landscape fabric. But assuming a population rate of 1-7 worms
per square meter[4] there should be sufficient openings in a typical
fabric installation such that the population is not impacted
significantly (assuming there is no reason why they would not choose to
use an available opening). Shallow burrowing earthworms do not share
nightcrawler feeding habit, but may exit their wandering burrows during
extensive rain[5].

[4] http://www.swcs.org/t_pubs_journal_2...acts_water.htm
[5] http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-279.html

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by roots.

Newspapers will block water to the soil or at the minimum cause pooling
until drainage hole(s) are formed, which will not necessarily be
uniformly distributed. Landscape fabric is semi-porous or porous to
both air and water, as are roots. The mulch is more likely to block
water than the fabric.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters.
Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or else
only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid form,
but not much of organic matter.

Correct, although the fabric will not necessarily pass the suspended
nutrients, depending on the size of the pores in the fabric.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done!
Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape fabric on
top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Weeds other than certain monocotyledons will not find their way through
landscape fabric from below. If a plants attempts to colonize the top
of the fabric, it is easily picked off. Done! No need to dig or look
for a newspaper stand.

Landscape fabric is not overlayed because it is not necessary. However,
if you have made a hole in the fabric that you do not want, it can be
repaired by simply putting a new piece on top (or tucked below the
existing fabric).

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric that
have plant root grow into it.

Landscape fabric: Never need to replace. Period. Okay, not in 5-15
years at least. Landscape fabric can become embeded with roots
attempting to penetrate from below, but the removal of such fabric is of
minor difficulty. Removing stripable wallpaper takes more effort.

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there, add
some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it can
last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this will
not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

Landscape fabric is a long term installation and will take more time for
planning and preparation. The actual installation is simple.

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Hi Salty Thumb,

I start learnning agriculture by year 2001, that is after I went back
to my hometown and deal with my land.

In my learnning progress, I do read a lot. Most of the articles I read
are contrary with other articles. And it's hard to test it up who are
correct.

I do read before from some articles that talk about the views bring up
by you. But for going to sustainable and without bring in external
input(landscape fabric), I tend to remember those comment that say bad
words to landscape fabric. g

I'm not reach the level to able to tell which one are correct by now,
but will grad to find it out if it does not cost too much of effort.
Since I will not going to use landscape fabric, if you can share your
personal experience with me(not those you read from), I'm grateful to
this. :-)

I'm going off to my land now, will reply you when I'm back.

Cheers,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m


"Salty Thumb" wrote in message
...
"nswong" wrote in
:

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment.
Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers are primarly carbon. According to one source[1] 'paper'
(not
necessarily newspaper) contains 150-200:1 C/N, compared to sawdust
at
100-500:1. Adding carbon will quite possibly detract from the
amount of
N available to a plant. Adding N to compensate will degrade the
weed
blocking utility of the newspaper as decomposition accelerates.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume carbon is of limited
value
as a nutrient amendment, as plants (primarily?) obtain carbon from
atmospheric carbon dioxide during photosynthesis. At any rate,
plants
do *excrete* carbon from their roots after periods of elevated
carbon
dioxide[2].

However, I'll concede that the newspaper and newspaper debris may
have
indirect and significant benefits (functioning similarly to
deciduous
leaf litter) in providing habitat and food for beneficial insects
and
microbes and enhancing soil structure.

While not directly contributing materiel, it is possible that
landscape
fabric made of polyester (and perhaps also polypropylene) can fixate
minor amounts of atmospheric nitrogen via wind action and
electrostatic
effect[3].

Yes, newspapers need to be replaced often compared to landscape
fabric.
To me, this is not an advantage in permanent or semi-permanent
installations.

[1] http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/horticulture/g810.htm "Table I.
Carbon/Nitrogen Ratios of Some Common Organic Materials"
[2] http://www.co2science.org/subject/r/summaries/roots.htm
[3] http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/02/Spring/chubb.html "Findings"

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling
plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Unless nightcrawlers will chew a hole through newspaper to open
their
covered burrow (quite possibly true), unbroken newspaper is as much
a
barrier as landscape fabric. But assuming a population rate of 1-7
worms
per square meter[4] there should be sufficient openings in a typical
fabric installation such that the population is not impacted
significantly (assuming there is no reason why they would not choose
to
use an available opening). Shallow burrowing earthworms do not
share
nightcrawler feeding habit, but may exit their wandering burrows
during
extensive rain[5].

[4] http://www.swcs.org/t_pubs_journal_2...acts_water.htm
[5] http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-279.html

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by
roots.

Newspapers will block water to the soil or at the minimum cause
pooling
until drainage hole(s) are formed, which will not necessarily be
uniformly distributed. Landscape fabric is semi-porous or porous to
both air and water, as are roots. The mulch is more likely to block
water than the fabric.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters.
Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or
else
only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid
form,
but not much of organic matter.

Correct, although the fabric will not necessarily pass the suspended
nutrients, depending on the size of the pores in the fabric.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old
newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done!
Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape
fabric on
top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Weeds other than certain monocotyledons will not find their way
through
landscape fabric from below. If a plants attempts to colonize the
top
of the fabric, it is easily picked off. Done! No need to dig or
look
for a newspaper stand.

Landscape fabric is not overlayed because it is not necessary.
However,
if you have made a hole in the fabric that you do not want, it can
be
repaired by simply putting a new piece on top (or tucked below the
existing fabric).

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric
that
have plant root grow into it.

Landscape fabric: Never need to replace. Period. Okay, not in
5-15
years at least. Landscape fabric can become embeded with roots
attempting to penetrate from below, but the removal of such fabric
is of
minor difficulty. Removing stripable wallpaper takes more effort.

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there,
add
some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it
can
last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this
will
not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

Landscape fabric is a long term installation and will take more time
for
planning and preparation. The actual installation is simple.

Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?
 

Hi Salty Thumb,

After the second pass read though your message, I'm afraid that I can
only reply you in very short form. Due to my bad English, I had
problem in spelling and phasing my words, it do take great effort for
me to write in English. Sorry about that. :-(

"Salty Thumb" wrote in message
...
"nswong" wrote in
:

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment.
Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers are primarly carbon. According to one source[1] 'paper'
(not
necessarily newspaper) contains 150-200:1 C/N, compared to sawdust
at
100-500:1. Adding carbon will quite possibly detract from the
amount of
N available to a plant. Adding N to compensate will degrade the
weed
blocking utility of the newspaper as decomposition accelerates.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume carbon is of limited
value
as a nutrient amendment, as plants (primarily?) obtain carbon from
atmospheric carbon dioxide during photosynthesis. At any rate,
plants
do *excrete* carbon from their roots after periods of elevated
carbon
dioxide[2].

However, I'll concede that the newspaper and newspaper debris may
have
indirect and significant benefits (functioning similarly to
deciduous
leaf litter) in providing habitat and food for beneficial insects
and
microbes and enhancing soil structure.

While not directly contributing materiel, it is possible that
landscape
fabric made of polyester (and perhaps also polypropylene) can fixate
minor amounts of atmospheric nitrogen via wind action and
electrostatic
effect[3].

Yes, newspapers need to be replaced often compared to landscape
fabric.
To me, this is not an advantage in permanent or semi-permanent
installations.

[1] http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/horticulture/g810.htm "Table I.
Carbon/Nitrogen Ratios of Some Common Organic Materials"
[2] http://www.co2science.org/subject/r/summaries/roots.htm
[3] http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/02/Spring/chubb.html "Findings"

Adding carbon will quite possibly detract from the amount of
N available to a plant. .

It depend on the carbon are in what form. If it's sugar or starch, it
do. If it's lignin or cellulose, the effect should be unnoticeable.
Newspaper are compose mostly by cellulose.

Adding N to compensate will degrade the weed
blocking utility of the newspaper as decomposition accelerates

Adding N will not always speed up the decompostion. It really depend
on situation.

Mulch supress weeds not just because the physical blocking ability, it
can also leach out some chemical harm weeds. Critters in mulch will
also help to supress weeds.

But to me, I will never add N to the mulch

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume carbon is of limited
value
as a nutrient amendment, as plants (primarily?) obtain carbon from
atmospheric carbon dioxide during photosynthesis. At any rate,
plants
do *excrete* carbon from their roots after periods of elevated
carbon
dioxide[2].

However, I'll concede that the newspaper and newspaper debris may
have
indirect and significant benefits (functioning similarly to
deciduous
leaf litter) in providing habitat and food for beneficial insects
and
microbes and enhancing soil structure.

Yes, here the soil amendment I'm refer to improve soil structure.

While not directly contributing materiel, it is possible that
landscape
fabric made of polyester (and perhaps also polypropylene) can fixate
minor amounts of atmospheric nitrogen via wind action and
electrostatic
effect[3].

I believe N fixed by bacterial using carbon as energy in orgainc mulch
will do a better job.

Yes, newspapers need to be replaced often compared to landscape
fabric.
To me, this is not an advantage in permanent or semi-permanent
installations.

For this I do facing problem to explain my view. In bussiness, we talk
about total cost of ownership. In here we talk about in the total life
span of the product, how much cost involve and how much the return
get.

For this, I'm not know enough to provide a view. Sorry about that.

[1] http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/horticulture/g810.htm "Table I.
Carbon/Nitrogen Ratios of Some Common Organic Materials"
[2] http://www.co2science.org/subject/r/summaries/roots.htm
[3] http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/02/Spring/chubb.html "Findings"

Thanks for the links, I will look at it later. :-)

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling
plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Unless nightcrawlers will chew a hole through newspaper to open
their
covered burrow (quite possibly true), unbroken newspaper is as much
a
barrier as landscape fabric. But assuming a population rate of 1-7
worms
per square meter[4] there should be sufficient openings in a typical
fabric installation such that the population is not impacted
significantly (assuming there is no reason why they would not choose
to
use an available opening). Shallow burrowing earthworms do not
share
nightcrawler feeding habit, but may exit their wandering burrows
during
extensive rain[5].

[4] http://www.swcs.org/t_pubs_journal_2...acts_water.htm
[5] http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-279.html

Unless nightcrawlers will chew a hole through newspaper to open
their
covered burrow (quite possibly true)

A few sheet of newspaper will not block earthworm.

But assuming a population rate of 1-7 worms
per square meter[4] there should be sufficient openings in a typical
fabric installation such that the population is not impacted
significantly (assuming there is no reason why they would not choose
to
use an available opening). Shallow burrowing earthworms do not
share
nightcrawler feeding habit, but may exit their wandering burrows
during
extensive rain[5].

I'm quite sure landscape fabric significantly reduce earthworm
population.

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by
roots.

Newspapers will block water to the soil or at the minimum cause
pooling
until drainage hole(s) are formed, which will not necessarily be
uniformly distributed. Landscape fabric is semi-porous or porous to
both air and water, as are roots. The mulch is more likely to block
water than the fabric.

Look at all short of filter we use, they all block. Do a test, remove
the mulch on top of your landscape fabric, put some water on top of
it, see how long it will pass through.

Mulch have critters making tunnel in it, except there is little
critter in it.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters.
Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or
else
only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid
form,
but not much of organic matter.

Correct, although the fabric will not necessarily pass the suspended
nutrients, depending on the size of the pores in the fabric.

I'm refer to those nutrien that resolve in water as liquid form.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old
newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done!
Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape
fabric on
top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Weeds other than certain monocotyledons will not find their way
through
landscape fabric from below. If a plants attempts to colonize the
top
of the fabric, it is easily picked off. Done! No need to dig or
look
for a newspaper stand.

Landscape fabric is not overlayed because it is not necessary.
However,
if you have made a hole in the fabric that you do not want, it can
be
repaired by simply putting a new piece on top (or tucked below the
existing fabric).

No comment. g

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric
that
have plant root grow into it.

Landscape fabric: Never need to replace. Period. Okay, not in
5-15
years at least. Landscape fabric can become embeded with roots
attempting to penetrate from below, but the removal of such fabric
is of
minor difficulty. Removing stripable wallpaper takes more effort.

Landscape fabric: Never need to replace. Period. Okay, not in
5-15
years at least.

From what I read, if landscape fabric are expose to sun, will not last
long.

Landscape fabric can become embeded with roots
attempting to penetrate from below, but the removal of such fabric
is of
minor difficulty.

From what I read, those user of landscape fabric donot take it as
"minor difficulty". g

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there,
add
some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it
can
last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this
will
not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

Landscape fabric is a long term installation and will take more time
for
planning and preparation. The actual installation is simple.

No comment. g

Sorry, I'm getting a bit impatience. :-(

Sorry,
Wong

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