The setting: house in a clearing in mature hardwood forest, the clearing
ringed by 70 to 80-foot tall oaks, maples, hickories, etc. Zone 6b. The
front 2/3 of the clearing, in front of the one-story house, is a "lawn"
comprised of a nice mess of weeds, grass, etc. - and, in the spring, wild
Claytonia virginica that looks lovely - that does OK being mowed. The
driveway is two gravel strips that run from the front of the lot (north),
about half way across the lawn towards the house (and have a huge red oak
between them). The lawn is punctuated by several large tree-stumps that have
nice things on or around them: one is a natural planter for petunias and
mums, one has mint, another has wild roses and one has rotted away and
yielded to a mass of intertwined 4 o'clocks and moonflowers I planted.
Looking toward the house, there's a garden frame for herbs, rhubarb, etc. on
the right (west) side of the clearing, with a small (16' x 2') flower border
in front of it. Along the front of the house are several boxwoods and a
couple of arborvitaes that were here before I was, azaleas, lilacs, hostas,
bleeding hearts, hellebores, pulmonaria, sweet box and Asarum canadense;
along the left (east) side of the house is northern bay and sweet woodruff.

The area I want to do something with, because it's so interesting-looking,
is on the left (east) side of the clearing. It's an approximately 16-foot
wide part of a slope down from a small knoll on which are two gigantic
chestnut oaks, two small maples and a gum tree. Jutting out of the slope at
an upward angle is an irregular shelf of shale, which runs for about 10 feet
of the area. There's a foot to a foot and a half of space between the rock
and the big trees, and about 3 feet width from the bottom of the
outcropping, to the driveway. The soil on top of the rocks is really just
oak leaf mold, with a lot of smaller pieces of shale that I've been picking
out of it. Dig in 6 to 8 inches, and you hit the big rock shelf. I've just
torn out a mass of honeysuckle that had overrun the area. Behind the big
trees is an understory featuring sassafras, Virginia creeper, poison ivy,
chokecherry, hackberry, more honeysuckle, and, in the spring, garlic mustard
that I've been hand-pulling each year.

I'd be interested in suggestions for two things:

* Ground-cover that would trail down over the rocks. Creeping thyme would do
OK, I think, but it's rather a long shelf to do all in one cover. I might
try some creeping phlox, except I doubt there's enough sun, even in spring.
The area gets about 3-4 hours of direct sun from the southeast, from midday
to late afternoon. The afternoon sun was enough that daylilies did OK, apart
from being eaten by deer, on the adjacent section of the slope. What about
Lamium and Woolly Veronica? I wouldn't mind encouraging the rampant Virginia
creeper to come down this way, though it would require digging up and moving
chunks of it from elsewhere, I suppose. I would try partridgeberry, except
it's been very disappointing in other areas where I'm trying to get it
started as a groundcover.

* Plants for below the shale outcropping. I don't want to tear up and
replace the soil, but will amend it. It's currently oak-leaf mold on top of
hard clay, with intermittent shale. Will leave intact a nice stand of starry
false Solomon's seal. Maybe I should just echo what's along the front of the
house and in my flower border (hellebores, hostas, sweet woodruff, Asarum
canadense, lamb's ears, columbine, bleeding hearts, coreopsis) - or, maybe
someone has other ideas? Lilies of the valley? I don't want anything too
tall, or it will obscure the outcropping, which is about 18-24" high. And I
don't want non-natives that will become invasive - although with
decades-worth of garlic mustard and honeysuckle in the woods, not to mention
a 60-foot high Norway maple, it's somewhat of a losing battle. I picked up a
couple of pots of soapwort (deadnettle) on sale the other day, but then read
more about it and destroyed those plants.

"Rachel" wrote in message
hlink.net...
The setting: house in a clearing in mature hardwood forest, the clearing
ringed by 70 to 80-foot tall oaks, maples, hickories, etc. Zone 6b. The
front 2/3 of the clearing, in front of the one-story house, is a "lawn"
snip

If you'd like to be buried in interesting ideas, buy the book "The Complete
Shade Gardener", by George Schenk. Absolutely awesome resource.

In article k.net,
"Rachel" wrote:

The setting: house in a clearing in mature hardwood forest, the clearing
ringed by 70 to 80-foot tall oaks, maples, hickories, etc. Zone 6b. The
front 2/3 of the clearing, in front of the one-story house, is a "lawn"
comprised of a nice mess of weeds, grass, etc. - and, in the spring, wild
Claytonia virginica that looks lovely - that does OK being mowed. The
driveway is two gravel strips that run from the front of the lot (north),
about half way across the lawn towards the house (and have a huge red oak
between them). The lawn is punctuated by several large tree-stumps that have
nice things on or around them: one is a natural planter for petunias and
mums, one has mint, another has wild roses and one has rotted away and
yielded to a mass of intertwined 4 o'clocks and moonflowers I planted.
Looking toward the house, there's a garden frame for herbs, rhubarb, etc. on
the right (west) side of the clearing, with a small (16' x 2') flower border
in front of it. Along the front of the house are several boxwoods and a
couple of arborvitaes that were here before I was, azaleas, lilacs, hostas,
bleeding hearts, hellebores, pulmonaria, sweet box and Asarum canadense;
along the left (east) side of the house is northern bay and sweet woodruff.

The area I want to do something with, because it's so interesting-looking,
is on the left (east) side of the clearing. It's an approximately 16-foot
wide part of a slope down from a small knoll on which are two gigantic
chestnut oaks, two small maples and a gum tree. Jutting out of the slope at
an upward angle is an irregular shelf of shale, which runs for about 10 feet
of the area. There's a foot to a foot and a half of space between the rock
and the big trees, and about 3 feet width from the bottom of the
outcropping, to the driveway. The soil on top of the rocks is really just
oak leaf mold, with a lot of smaller pieces of shale that I've been picking
out of it. Dig in 6 to 8 inches, and you hit the big rock shelf. I've just
torn out a mass of honeysuckle that had overrun the area. Behind the big
trees is an understory featuring sassafras, Virginia creeper, poison ivy,
chokecherry, hackberry, more honeysuckle, and, in the spring, garlic mustard
that I've been hand-pulling each year.

I'd be interested in suggestions for two things:

* Ground-cover that would trail down over the rocks. Creeping thyme would do
OK, I think, but it's rather a long shelf to do all in one cover. I might
try some creeping phlox, except I doubt there's enough sun, even in spring.
The area gets about 3-4 hours of direct sun from the southeast, from midday
to late afternoon. The afternoon sun was enough that daylilies did OK, apart
from being eaten by deer, on the adjacent section of the slope. What about
Lamium and Woolly Veronica? I wouldn't mind encouraging the rampant Virginia
creeper to come down this way, though it would require digging up and moving
chunks of it from elsewhere, I suppose. I would try partridgeberry, except
it's been very disappointing in other areas where I'm trying to get it
started as a groundcover.

* Plants for below the shale outcropping. I don't want to tear up and
replace the soil, but will amend it. It's currently oak-leaf mold on top of
hard clay, with intermittent shale. Will leave intact a nice stand of starry
false Solomon's seal. Maybe I should just echo what's along the front of the
house and in my flower border (hellebores, hostas, sweet woodruff, Asarum
canadense, lamb's ears, columbine, bleeding hearts, coreopsis) - or, maybe
someone has other ideas? Lilies of the valley? I don't want anything too
tall, or it will obscure the outcropping, which is about 18-24" high. And I
don't want non-natives that will become invasive - although with
decades-worth of garlic mustard and honeysuckle in the woods, not to mention
a 60-foot high Norway maple, it's somewhat of a losing battle. I picked up a
couple of pots of soapwort (deadnettle) on sale the other day, but then read
more about it and destroyed those plants.

You will have endless choices of shade plants if you can get water to it
regularly & deepen the soil, but as you say it is also rocky, I'm assuming
rather dry shade. The list you make is a good list to start with. You
could also consider:

Cyclamen hederifolium loves dry shade conditions.

Big-root geranium (Geranium macrorrhizum) forms a lovely
spring-through-autumn foliage in dry shade, but do need sun to flower.

Bergenia produce their enormous low leaves in almost any condition
including dry shade, but won't bloom much if it's too much shade.

Epimediums (bishop's hats) are the premiere dry shade plants for gorgeous
leaves & interesting flowers. Many species & varieties, they're worthy of
becoming a special collection of different kinds, among which might be
dispersed Vancouveria hexandra or Vanouveria planipetala for further
variety.

Oregon grapes do well in dryish shade, & you can select from different
species that range from low creepers to large upright shrubs.

Evergreen Iris foetidissima ("Stinking Iris" but it doesn't really stink
unless you bust open the roots) has subdued flowers as irises go, but
unlike other irises it thrives in dryish shade, & its autumn berries are
more impressive than flowers.

Liriope muscari & Liriope spicita like dryish shade, producing spikes of
purple flowers followed by persisting black berries. It can be invasive in
zone 8, but in your zone ought to be more restrained. Cultivars of L.
muscari are not usually as aggressive.

Scilla thrives in dryish shade, in the worst coerners where virtually
nothing else would be happy.

The western sword fern is one of the more drought-hardy ferns. It needs
either lots of water to look good in a bright spot, but holds its good
looks even without much water in a deep shade spot. This can also be said
of the Japanese Tassel Fern, & a few others in the same genus.

There are other Asarums than the A. canadense you mention, including some
mottled giant-leafed Asian species worth having.

Deadnettle/Lamium cultivars aren't as bad as you seem to have been led to
believe. They're not as aggressive as liriope or sweet william certainly.
They only look their best in moist well draining loose soil, though, & the
fact that they don't die in imperfect conditions doesn't speak to how
awful they look if neglected.

Japanese anemones, one of the more spectacular perennials to flower best
in shade.

Dwarf variegated english ivy. The fancier the cultivar the slower its
spread, it'll never take over like regular english ivy.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

(paghat) in
news
In article k.net,
"Rachel" wrote:

The setting: house in a clearing in mature hardwood forest, the
clearing ringed by 70 to 80-foot tall oaks, maples, hickories, etc.
Zone 6b. The front 2/3 of the clearing, in front of the one-story
house, is a "lawn" comprised of a nice mess of weeds, grass, etc. -
and, in the spring, wild Claytonia virginica that looks lovely - that
does OK being mowed. The driveway is two gravel strips that run from
the front of the lot (north), about half way across the lawn towards
the house (and have a huge red oak between them). The lawn is
punctuated by several large tree-stumps that have nice things on or
around them: one is a natural planter for petunias and mums, one has
mint, another has wild roses and one has rotted away and yielded to a
mass of intertwined 4 o'clocks and moonflowers I planted. Looking
toward the house, there's a garden frame for herbs, rhubarb, etc. on
the right (west) side of the clearing, with a small (16' x 2') flower
border in front of it. Along the front of the house are several
boxwoods and a couple of arborvitaes that were here before I was,
azaleas, lilacs, hostas, bleeding hearts, hellebores, pulmonaria,
sweet box and Asarum canadense; along the left (east) side of the
house is northern bay and sweet woodruff.

The area I want to do something with, because it's so
interesting-looking, is on the left (east) side of the clearing. It's
an approximately 16-foot wide part of a slope down from a small knoll
on which are two gigantic chestnut oaks, two small maples and a gum
tree. Jutting out of the slope at an upward angle is an irregular
shelf of shale, which runs for about 10 feet of the area. There's a
foot to a foot and a half of space between the rock and the big
trees, and about 3 feet width from the bottom of the outcropping, to
the driveway. The soil on top of the rocks is really just oak leaf
mold, with a lot of smaller pieces of shale that I've been picking
out of it. Dig in 6 to 8 inches, and you hit the big rock shelf. I've
just torn out a mass of honeysuckle that had overrun the area. Behind
the big trees is an understory featuring sassafras, Virginia creeper,
poison ivy, chokecherry, hackberry, more honeysuckle, and, in the
spring, garlic mustard that I've been hand-pulling each year.

I'd be interested in suggestions for two things:

* Ground-cover that would trail down over the rocks. Creeping thyme
would do OK, I think,

nedds sun

but it's rather a long shelf to do all in one
cover. I might try some creeping phlox, except I doubt there's enough
sun, even in spring. The area gets about 3-4 hours of direct sun from
the southeast, from midday to late afternoon. The afternoon sun was
enough that daylilies did OK, apart from being eaten by deer,


deer will be big limitiatoin :-)

on the
adjacent section of the slope. What about Lamium


said ot be good in shade.

and Woolly Veronica?
I wouldn't mind encouraging the rampant Virginia creeper to come down
this way, though it would require digging up and moving chunks of it
from elsewhere, I suppose. I would try partridgeberry, except it's
been very disappointing in other areas where I'm trying to get it
started as a groundcover.

* Plants for below the shale outcropping. I don't want to tear up and
replace the soil, but will amend it. It's currently oak-leaf mold on
top of hard clay, with intermittent shale. Will leave intact a nice
stand of starry false Solomon's seal.

check out rock gardens and plants, unless your shale 'outcrop' is
mostly clay-clotted. i hope you saved teh shale bits. grit and rocky
soil make excellent growing medium for many fantasitc plants. they'll
grow nicely inot the edge of of your driveway



Maybe I should just echo what's
along the front of the house and in my flower border (hellebores,
hostas, sweet woodruff, Asarum canadense, lamb's ears, columbine,
bleeding hearts, coreopsis) - or, maybe someone has other ideas?
Lilies of the valley?

some ppl say that's a weed. (in wetter and/or shorter season regions)


I don't want anything too tall, or it will
obscure the outcropping, which is about 18-24" high. And I don't want
non-natives that will become invasive - although with decades-worth
of garlic mustard and honeysuckle in the woods, not to mention a
60-foot high Norway maple, it's somewhat of a losing battle. I picked
up a couple of pots of soapwort (deadnettle) on sale the other day,
but then read more about it and destroyed those plants.

You will have endless choices of shade plants if you can get water to
it regularly & deepen the soil, but as you say it is also rocky, I'm
assuming rather dry shade. The list you make is a good list to start
with. You could also consider:

Cyclamen hederifolium loves dry shade conditions.

Big-root geranium (Geranium macrorrhizum) forms a lovely
spring-through-autumn foliage in dry shade, but do need sun to flower.

Bergenia produce their enormous low leaves in almost any condition
including dry shade, but won't bloom much if it's too much shade.

like moist soil, or they just recede while you feel as if you're
constantly watering thme. but our season may be too long for them.

.. i thikn they prefer low spots, too.

Epimediums (bishop's hats) are the premiere dry shade plants for
gorgeous leaves & interesting flowers. Many species & varieties,
they're worthy of becoming a special collection of different kinds,
among which might be dispersed Vancouveria hexandra or Vanouveria
planipetala for further variety.

Oregon grapes do well in dryish shade, & you can select from different
species that range from low creepers to large upright shrubs.

yes. mahonia

Evergreen Iris foetidissima ("Stinking Iris" but it doesn't really
stink unless you bust open the roots) has subdued flowers as irises
go, but unlike other irises it thrives in dryish shade, & its autumn
berries are more impressive than flowers.

very dry summer tolerant. leaves bleach dry in sunny areas, unles well
waterd. will reseed nicely. easy transplant.

Liriope muscari & Liriope spicita like dryish shade, producing spikes
of purple flowers followed by persisting black berries. It can be
invasive in zone 8, but in your zone ought to be more restrained.
Cultivars of L. muscari are not usually as aggressive.

Scilla thrives in dryish shade, in the worst coerners where virtually
nothing else would be happy.

The western sword fern is one of the more drought-hardy ferns. It
needs either lots of water to look good in a bright spot, but holds
its good looks even without much water in a deep shade spot. This can
also be said of the Japanese Tassel Fern, & a few others in the same
genus.

sword ferns might get tall.

There are other Asarums than the A. canadense you mention, including
some mottled giant-leafed Asian species worth having.

Deadnettle/Lamium cultivars aren't as bad as you seem to have been led
to believe. They're not as aggressive as liriope

i 'have little exper with Liriop, AFAI(weakly)R, sunset says some
aren't creeprs (spreaders)

or sweet william

sun


certainly. They only look their best in moist well draining loose
soil, though, & the fact that they don't die in imperfect conditions
doesn't speak to how awful they look if neglected.

Japanese anemones, one of the more spectacular perennials to flower
best in shade.

i've seen impressive swatches of white ones... tho they like water, so
never tried them. i've notieced them only on flat ground, as a bed
filling perennial.

Dwarf variegated english ivy. The fancier the cultivar the slower its
spread, it'll never take over like regular english ivy.

-paghat the ratgirl



mix and match googles:
the name of states in your regoin or add local bioregoin names, such as
"blah blah basin", "allegheny", chesapeake , woodlands "dry woods"
etc

add to googles, such as
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...+habitats%22+%
7C+scree+%7C+screes+shaded


http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...t&ie=UTF-8&q=%
22new+england%22+shale+fern+%7Cspecies+%7C+native+

Thanks, Paghat, for a lot of new ideas, and for the
additional insights.

* Ground-cover that would trail down over the rocks. Creeping thyme
would do OK, I think,

nedds sun

It's thriving between the stepping stones in a path to the house door near
this area, so it seems that the 3+ hours of afternoon sun, and dappled in
the morning, is enough.

Lilies of the valley?

some ppl say that's a weed. (in wetter and/or shorter season regions)

It's OK with me - better to have lilies of the valley spread, than garlic
mustard.

You will have endless choices of shade plants if you can get water to
it regularly & deepen the soil, but as you say it is also rocky, I'm
assuming rather dry shade.

Well, there's been so much rain in these parts the last two years that
everywhere is a bit wet and the water table is very high in the whole
neighborhood, as tends to occur on small plateaus on a mountainside (this is
on the western side of the Blue Ridge), but normally this slope is
relatively dry. The water runs down towards, then around, the house. I don't
want to have to water the area except if some individual plants need to be
rescued during deep drought.

Cyclamen hederifolium loves dry shade conditions.

That sounds, and looks, great!

Epimediums (bishop's hats) are the premiere dry shade plants for
gorgeous leaves & interesting flowers. Many species & varieties,
they're worthy of becoming a special collection of different kinds,
among which might be dispersed Vancouveria hexandra or Vanouveria
planipetala for further variety.

Will start collecting.

Evergreen Iris foetidissima ("Stinking Iris" but it doesn't really
stink unless you bust open the roots) has subdued flowers as irises
go, but unlike other irises it thrives in dryish shade, & its autumn
berries are more impressive than flowers.

very dry summer tolerant. leaves bleach dry in sunny areas, unles well
waterd. will reseed nicely. easy transplant.

Scilla thrives in dryish shade, in the worst coerners where virtually
nothing else would be happy.

I have scilla all over the adjacent part of the slope.

Deadnettle/Lamium cultivars aren't as bad as you seem to have been led
to believe. They're not as aggressive as liriope

Sorry, I didn't mean to say deadnettle was such an invasive threat, but
rather soapwort. The latter seemed like the kind of thing that might get out
of control, spreading by seed, and compete with the springtime stands of
cutleaf toothwort, and small patches of rue anemone and wild geranium, in
the woods - native wildflowers that are hanging on, against the garlic
mustard and honeysuckle.

They only look their best in moist well draining loose
soil, though, & the fact that they don't die in imperfect conditions
doesn't speak to how awful they look if neglected.

Yeah, I don't like liriope, anyway.

Japanese anemones, one of the more spectacular perennials to flower
best in shade.

i've seen impressive swatches of white ones... tho they like water, so
never tried them. i've notieced them only on flat ground, as a bed
filling perennial.

Maybe at the foot of the rocks, where the soil stays moister.

Thanks, again!