Legal/Ethical Dilemma?
 

Three years ago, my neighbors were storing a canoe up against the chain link
fence that separates our backyards. It was an eyesore. My opinion is that I
have no right complaining to my neighbors about what they do on their own
property, so I took a pro-active approach instead. I planted some Silver
Lace vines on the chain link fence. This worked very well, and by the end of
summer it hid the canoe, and it looked really nice.

The following year, they got rid of the canoe and planted a flower garden in
its place. Even though I no longer needed the vines, they looked so
beautiful that I kept them.

Now, three years later, they are a magnificent backdrop to the rest of my
flower garden. It's a backdrop to their flower garden too, and they didn't
even have to pay for it.

During teh Christmas holidays, I invited these neighbors over for a holiday
drink, and James said "Michelle, you're going to have to do something about
those vines." When I asked him what he meant, he said that the vines were
growing into their yard and are strangling their plants.

I told him that it's a vine, and all vines need trimming occasionally. I
told him I trim my side of the vine every two or three weeks in the summer,
and it only takes about five minutes each time. I said that's a small price
to pay for having such a beautiful plant that is covering what was an ugly
chain link fence.

He told me that he and his wife shouldn't have to trim it at all, because it
was my vine. He said if I were willing to trim it on their side of the fence
from now on, they wouldn't have a problem with it, but if I don't do this,
I'd have to "do something about my vines". He of course means I should kill
the plants to make him happy.

I changed the topic and wasn't the same for the rest of the evening. I was
insulted that they would come into my home, drink my wine, and use it as an
opportunity to criticize me. Plus, it's winter! Why is he bringing that up
in the middle of winter?

I have already decided that I will trim the vines on their side of the
fence. But now I'm wondering who is right, and who is wrong, in this
situation? Am I right to think my neighbors are cranky? Does the law
obligate me to trim vines that enter my neighbors yard? Should they accept
the minor chore of vine trimming in return for having such a beautiful
backdrop (their words) to their garden?

TIA!
Michelle

Michelle C wrote:
Three years ago, my neighbors were storing a canoe up against the chain link
fence that separates our backyards. It was an eyesore. My opinion is that I
have no right complaining to my neighbors about what they do on their own
property, so I took a pro-active approach instead. I planted some Silver
Lace vines on the chain link fence. This worked very well, and by the end of
summer it hid the canoe, and it looked really nice.

The following year, they got rid of the canoe and planted a flower garden in
its place. Even though I no longer needed the vines, they looked so
beautiful that I kept them.

Now, three years later, they are a magnificent backdrop to the rest of my
flower garden. It's a backdrop to their flower garden too, and they didn't
even have to pay for it.

During teh Christmas holidays, I invited these neighbors over for a holiday
drink, and James said "Michelle, you're going to have to do something about
those vines." When I asked him what he meant, he said that the vines were
growing into their yard and are strangling their plants.

I told him that it's a vine, and all vines need trimming occasionally. I
told him I trim my side of the vine every two or three weeks in the summer,
and it only takes about five minutes each time. I said that's a small price
to pay for having such a beautiful plant that is covering what was an ugly
chain link fence.

He told me that he and his wife shouldn't have to trim it at all, because it
was my vine. He said if I were willing to trim it on their side of the fence
from now on, they wouldn't have a problem with it, but if I don't do this,
I'd have to "do something about my vines". He of course means I should kill
the plants to make him happy.

I changed the topic and wasn't the same for the rest of the evening. I was
insulted that they would come into my home, drink my wine, and use it as an
opportunity to criticize me. Plus, it's winter! Why is he bringing that up
in the middle of winter?

I have already decided that I will trim the vines on their side of the
fence. But now I'm wondering who is right, and who is wrong, in this
situation? Am I right to think my neighbors are cranky? Does the law
obligate me to trim vines that enter my neighbors yard? Should they accept
the minor chore of vine trimming in return for having such a beautiful
backdrop (their words) to their garden?

TIA!
Michelle




Your neighbor is an ass, and you can't possibly win this.

If you trim the vines on their side, they will complain you didn't do it
good enough or you stepped on some of their plants or something. They
will also expect you to keep them trimmed, and to do a better job next time.

If you do nothing, they will probably spray the vines on their side with
weed killer in an attempt to destroy them on both sides of the fence.

Best regards,
Bob

Since it only takes 5 minutes, just walk over there and trim it. If you
think they're really picky, ask one of them to come out and tell you if it's
done the way they like it. Of all the neighbor problems you could have, this
is like a .25 on a scale of 0 through 10. Don't make it worse. As far as
them "drinking your wine", you invited them, right? They probably figured it
would be good to broach the subject when everyone was loosened up a bit.

Shall I tell you about my neighbor, who thought it was OK to let their
ChemLawn moron hose down my vegetable garden with pesticides, and how I was
prepared to get an injunction from our town justice, which would've directed
the cops to arrest the neighbor if the spraying actually took place? That's
an 8 on the scale. A convicted child molester moving in next door - that's a
10.

In article , "Michelle C"
wrote:

Three years ago, my neighbors were storing a canoe up against the chain link
fence that separates our backyards. It was an eyesore. My opinion is that I
have no right complaining to my neighbors about what they do on their own
property, so I took a pro-active approach instead. I planted some Silver
Lace vines on the chain link fence. This worked very well, and by the end of
summer it hid the canoe, and it looked really nice.

The following year, they got rid of the canoe and planted a flower garden in
its place. Even though I no longer needed the vines, they looked so
beautiful that I kept them.

Now, three years later, they are a magnificent backdrop to the rest of my
flower garden. It's a backdrop to their flower garden too, and they didn't
even have to pay for it.

During teh Christmas holidays, I invited these neighbors over for a holiday
drink, and James said "Michelle, you're going to have to do something about
those vines." When I asked him what he meant, he said that the vines were
growing into their yard and are strangling their plants.

I told him that it's a vine, and all vines need trimming occasionally. I
told him I trim my side of the vine every two or three weeks in the summer,
and it only takes about five minutes each time. I said that's a small price
to pay for having such a beautiful plant that is covering what was an ugly
chain link fence.

He told me that he and his wife shouldn't have to trim it at all, because it
was my vine. He said if I were willing to trim it on their side of the fence
from now on, they wouldn't have a problem with it, but if I don't do this,
I'd have to "do something about my vines". He of course means I should kill
the plants to make him happy.

I changed the topic and wasn't the same for the rest of the evening. I was
insulted that they would come into my home, drink my wine, and use it as an
opportunity to criticize me. Plus, it's winter! Why is he bringing that up
in the middle of winter?

I have already decided that I will trim the vines on their side of the
fence. But now I'm wondering who is right, and who is wrong, in this
situation? Am I right to think my neighbors are cranky? Does the law
obligate me to trim vines that enter my neighbors yard? Should they accept
the minor chore of vine trimming in return for having such a beautiful
backdrop (their words) to their garden?

I wouldn't risk trespassing on the property of people loony enough to
prefer a stark ugly chainlink fenced to vines. I think what you need is a
pleasant natural wooden fence of your own. six feet tall, against which
you can grow five kinds of vines if you like, PLUS you will never again
have to look at that ugly-ass chainlink fence or anything they lean up
against it in the future. You also need much better judgement about who
you invite into your house.

As for "law" -- ordinances vary from place to place but in general a fence
is not supposed to be placed right on a property line UNLESS both property
owners cooperate & agree to place the fence right on the property line.
Whoever puts up a fence inside their property line is legally required to
maintain the fence. A fence is usually a foot or so inside their property
line, & the owners of the fence have access to both sides. If nobody ever
signed a Fence Compliance Form showing mutual agreement to be directly on
a property line, it has to be inside the fence owner's property. If the
fence is right on the property line without mutual agreement, you can
force them move it to conform to the local ordinance, with fun
neighbor-wars resulting.

Many ordinances require a fence to be set back "a reasonable distance"
which is defined as enough space to allow the fence owner to access both
sides of the fence for its maintenance. If their fence meets this legal
requirement, they can even come on your side of the fence & remove
anything attached to it, or paint it, or whatever they decidce to do to
it. If it is placed right on the property line with mutually signed Fence
Compliance Form signed by all parties, then you are responsible both for
the mainteance of your side of the fence & for keeping anything from
afflicting their side of the fence.

In any case, what grows through a fence or over a fence to the other side
they can legally remove. But where a chainlink is involved, where really
does a vine tresspass to the other side? If one side of the fence wants to
see vines, and the other side of the fence does not want them, there's no
possibility of mutually satisfactory use, which is just one more reason
why a fence that ugly-ass should never be used to separate properties.
Which underscores your need for a privacy-providing & vastly more
attractive natural wood fence of your own, placed according to ordinance
requirements if they will not enter into a mutual agreement to have a more
aesthetic fence placed directly on the property line.

They don't sound like reasonable people but the law is almost certainly on
their side. If they ARE reasonable you might be able to convince them to
permit you to replace a fence that does not allow for mutually agreeable
use (you cannot grow vines on it when there is no way to keep them on your
side), & at your expense put up an aesthetic fence that does not allow
such free penetration of plant life. Your side cna be rich & green, theirs
they can paint purple polka dot if they like. Or just put it inside your
property & you maintain both sides of the fence.

Most regulations require a fence to be no higher than six feet (some city
or county ordinances allow 8 feet) in a back yard or along an alley; no
higher than three feet at the front of a house (sometimes four feet); no
closer than a foot from sidewalks, interfering with no easements, blocking
no street-corner visibility from vehicles, with a minimum of one
four-foot-wide access gate in case of fire or other emergency. Sometimes a
fence building permit is needed, that costs very little with the building
department, but some areas require a permit only for fences that one wants
exceptions to not conform to an ordinance (for instance a seven or eight
foot fence might need a permit for the variance, but a six foot or smaller
that adheres to all requirements would not require a permit).

Placement of a fence also requires that the rights of adjacent property
owners are not allowed to be hindered; if the present fence is directly
on the property line, it could be argued that your right to grow vines on
a fence has definitely been hindered by their right to not have vines on
their side of the fence, forcing the issue of either replacing it witha
fence that protects both sides' rights equally, or requiring them to move
the fence away from the property line so that they alone maintain both
sides of it & which provides you room to have your own fence with access
to both sides.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

"Michelle C" wrote in message
...
Three years ago, my neighbors were storing a canoe up against the chain
link
fence that separates our backyards. It was an eyesore. My opinion is that
I
have no right complaining to my neighbors about what they do on their own
property, so I took a pro-active approach instead. I planted some Silver
Lace vines on the chain link fence. This worked very well, and by the end
of
summer it hid the canoe, and it looked really nice.

The following year, they got rid of the canoe and planted a flower garden
in
its place. Even though I no longer needed the vines, they looked so
beautiful that I kept them.

Now, three years later, they are a magnificent backdrop to the rest of my
flower garden. It's a backdrop to their flower garden too, and they didn't
even have to pay for it.

During teh Christmas holidays, I invited these neighbors over for a
holiday
drink, and James said "Michelle, you're going to have to do something
about
those vines." When I asked him what he meant, he said that the vines were
growing into their yard and are strangling their plants.

I told him that it's a vine, and all vines need trimming occasionally. I
told him I trim my side of the vine every two or three weeks in the
summer,
and it only takes about five minutes each time. I said that's a small
price
to pay for having such a beautiful plant that is covering what was an ugly
chain link fence.

He told me that he and his wife shouldn't have to trim it at all, because
it
was my vine. He said if I were willing to trim it on their side of the
fence
from now on, they wouldn't have a problem with it, but if I don't do this,
I'd have to "do something about my vines". He of course means I should
kill
the plants to make him happy.

I changed the topic and wasn't the same for the rest of the evening. I was
insulted that they would come into my home, drink my wine, and use it as
an
opportunity to criticize me. Plus, it's winter! Why is he bringing that up
in the middle of winter?

I have already decided that I will trim the vines on their side of the
fence. But now I'm wondering who is right, and who is wrong, in this
situation? Am I right to think my neighbors are cranky? Does the law
obligate me to trim vines that enter my neighbors yard? Should they accept
the minor chore of vine trimming in return for having such a beautiful
backdrop (their words) to their garden?

TIA!
Michelle



Perhaps you could move your vine, or take cuttings, to another spot away
from them, and plant some less invasive climber like a clematis?

Thanks for your reply, Bob.

I intend to trim the vine as short as possible on their side, so as to
require less trimming, and less bitching from them. It will also deprive
them of the beauty of the plant.

If they still complain, I'll remove it and put up a privacy fence.

- Michelle

PS These same neighbors complain that my oak trees drop leaves into their
yard each fall. I don't think they are reasonable people.




Your neighbor is an ass, and you can't possibly win this.

If you trim the vines on their side, they will complain you didn't do it
good enough or you stepped on some of their plants or something. They
will also expect you to keep them trimmed, and to do a better job next
time.

If you do nothing, they will probably spray the vines on their side with
weed killer in an attempt to destroy them on both sides of the fence.

Best regards,
Bob

Hi Doug,

These same neighbors have complained about my oaks and elms dropping leaves
into their yard each fall, and of shading their pool too much during the
summer. Personally, I think they are a pain in the ass, but I want to hear
what others think.

You're right though... at the end of the day, this 'problem' is only a minor
irritation.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Since it only takes 5 minutes, just walk over there and trim it. If you
think they're really picky, ask one of them to come out and tell you if
it's done the way they like it. Of all the neighbor problems you could
have, this is like a .25 on a scale of 0 through 10. Don't make it worse.
As far as them "drinking your wine", you invited them, right? They
probably figured it would be good to broach the subject when everyone was
loosened up a bit.

Shall I tell you about my neighbor, who thought it was OK to let their
ChemLawn moron hose down my vegetable garden with pesticides, and how I
was prepared to get an injunction from our town justice, which would've
directed the cops to arrest the neighbor if the spraying actually took
place? That's an 8 on the scale. A convicted child molester moving in next
door - that's a 10.

WOW! You must be a lawyer! Thanks for your reply, paghat!

You're right... I'll probably end up getting a privacy fence. But if I do,
I'll pay for the entire thing myself. They aren't the most co-operative of
neighbors.

"Michelle C" wrote in message
...
WOW! You must be a lawyer! Thanks for your reply, paghat!

You're right... I'll probably end up getting a privacy fence. But if I do,
I'll pay for the entire thing myself. They aren't the most co-operative of
neighbors.


Some vines still find their way through every crack in those fences.

Michelle:
Sounds like if there's rain with a little wind coming from your direction,
they'll say it's YOUR rain overwatering their yard. These people need a
condo, not a house. Are they the kinds of ******s who case 3 leaves around
the yard with a leaf blower for 8 hours straight?


"Michelle C" wrote in message
...
Hi Doug,

These same neighbors have complained about my oaks and elms dropping
leaves into their yard each fall, and of shading their pool too much
during the summer. Personally, I think they are a pain in the ass, but I
want to hear what others think.

You're right though... at the end of the day, this 'problem' is only a
minor irritation.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Since it only takes 5 minutes, just walk over there and trim it. If you
think they're really picky, ask one of them to come out and tell you if
it's done the way they like it. Of all the neighbor problems you could
have, this is like a .25 on a scale of 0 through 10. Don't make it worse.
As far as them "drinking your wine", you invited them, right? They
probably figured it would be good to broach the subject when everyone was
loosened up a bit.

Shall I tell you about my neighbor, who thought it was OK to let their
ChemLawn moron hose down my vegetable garden with pesticides, and how I
was prepared to get an injunction from our town justice, which would've
directed the cops to arrest the neighbor if the spraying actually took
place? That's an 8 on the scale. A convicted child molester moving in
next door - that's a 10.

"Michelle C" wrote in message
...

I have already decided that I will trim the vines on their side of the
fence. But now I'm wondering who is right, and who is wrong, in this
situation? Am I right to think my neighbors are cranky? Does the law
obligate me to trim vines that enter my neighbors yard? Should they accept
the minor chore of vine trimming in return for having such a beautiful
backdrop (their words) to their garden?


We have a problem neighbor too. What we did was build three trellis
structures separated by evergreen trees about 2 feet inside the fenceline
(there is an existing three rail cedar fence). Because there is no height
restriction on the trellis, they are eight feet tall and I have rambling and
climbing roses growing on them, and I can trim both sides. They block the
objectionable view and look lovely in bloom. Your neighbors sound as
unreasonable as ours and I wish you luck.

Karen

we not only have to trim all the crappy brush grows thru our 700 foot long fence
along our drive, we gotta cart all the trimmings away rather than tossing them over
the fence into their wild trashy brush. Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"Michelle C" wrote in message
...
Three years ago, my neighbors were storing a canoe up against the chain
link
fence that separates our backyards. It was an eyesore. My opinion is that
I
have no right complaining to my neighbors about what they do on their own
property, so I took a pro-active approach instead. I planted some Silver
Lace vines on the chain link fence. This worked very well, and by the end
of
summer it hid the canoe, and it looked really nice.

The following year, they got rid of the canoe and planted a flower garden
in
its place. Even though I no longer needed the vines, they looked so
beautiful that I kept them.

Now, three years later, they are a magnificent backdrop to the rest of my
flower garden. It's a backdrop to their flower garden too, and they didn't
even have to pay for it.

During teh Christmas holidays, I invited these neighbors over for a
holiday
drink, and James said "Michelle, you're going to have to do something
about
those vines." When I asked him what he meant, he said that the vines were
growing into their yard and are strangling their plants.

I told him that it's a vine, and all vines need trimming occasionally. I
told him I trim my side of the vine every two or three weeks in the
summer,
and it only takes about five minutes each time. I said that's a small
price
to pay for having such a beautiful plant that is covering what was an ugly
chain link fence.

He told me that he and his wife shouldn't have to trim it at all, because
it
was my vine. He said if I were willing to trim it on their side of the
fence
from now on, they wouldn't have a problem with it, but if I don't do this,
I'd have to "do something about my vines". He of course means I should
kill
the plants to make him happy.

I changed the topic and wasn't the same for the rest of the evening. I was
insulted that they would come into my home, drink my wine, and use it as
an
opportunity to criticize me. Plus, it's winter! Why is he bringing that up
in the middle of winter?

I have already decided that I will trim the vines on their side of the
fence. But now I'm wondering who is right, and who is wrong, in this
situation? Am I right to think my neighbors are cranky? Does the law
obligate me to trim vines that enter my neighbors yard? Should they accept
the minor chore of vine trimming in return for having such a beautiful
backdrop (their words) to their garden?

TIA!
Michelle

And definitely, DO NOT invite them to any more social gatherings at your
home! What a waste of "social time"... Too bad we can't pick our
neighbors; I know I'd have one that would definitely be a goner.

Cheryl

Michelle C wrote:

PS These same neighbors complain that my oak trees drop leaves into
their yard each fall. I don't think they are reasonable people.


And yet you invite them over for a drink?

The only way to deal with unreasonable people is to avoid them. That
would preclude actually inviting them over, and giving them wine.

On the other hand, it really could be that they have different
expectations about the vine. Perhaps they haven't trimmed it because
they're afraid you're an unreasonable person who'll freak-out because
they're chopping away at your vine. Perhaps where they grew-up, people
trimmed plants that went into other people's yards. Maybe they expect
that reasonable people clean-up leaves from their trees that fall on
their neighbor's lawn.

I have a neighbor who doesn't have a tree in his front yard. I have a
huge tree that even extends over part of his lawn. When I vac up the
leaves on my yard, I continue past the lot line, and get the heavy leaf
fall. I don't go and grab every leaf that's blown across his lawn, but
once I'm done, he really doesn't have to rake. If the tables were
turned, I probably wouldn't complain about raking, but I'd notice the
irony of needing to rake when I don't even have a tree.

So maybe they just didn't want to trim your vine. And it's really not so
far out there to expect that you would trim your vine -- even the part
going over the lot line. Perhaps your reaction caught them off guard,
and it's not that they would mind doing it now that they know they're
allowed to. It may just be that they were surprised that you *expected*
them to trim *your* vine.

Maybe they are unreasonable people. But there's not enough information
to tell. They could be reasonable people with different expectations and
customs than you.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Compare the newest tax preparation software apps:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/taxes/index.html

" And yet you invite them over for a drink?

Yes, in the spirit of Christmas and in the hopes that we could get along.
My mistake. Sorry.



Perhaps they haven't trimmed it because they're afraid you're an
unreasonable person who'll freak-out because they're chopping away at your
vine.

That's ridiculous.


Maybe they expect that reasonable people clean-up leaves from their trees
that fall on their neighbor's lawn.

Add that is beyond ridiculous.

Hey - you don't live next door to me, do you?

Michelle C wrote:
Perhaps they haven't trimmed it because they're afraid you're an
unreasonable person who'll freak-out because they're chopping away at
your vine.

That's ridiculous.

Why? Because *you* know you're not an unreasonable person? Based on the
way you've dismissed what I've said as rediculous, I'm already getting
the impression that you're an unreasonable person who isn't willing to
accept that differnt people have different perspectives. If that's how
you treat them, I wouldn't be surprised to hear from them that you're an
unreasonable neighbor.

The dynamics of how the neighborhood I grew up in and where I live now
are completely different. Neighbors expect different things from each
other 40 years and 2000 miles away. There isn't just one right way of
viewing a situation like this. But maybe you think that's ridiculous,
too.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Compare the newest tax preparation software apps:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/taxes/index.html

Based on the way you've dismissed what I've said as rediculous, I'm
already getting the impression that you're an unreasonable person who
isn't willing to accept that differnt people have different perspectives.

It's "rediculous" (sic) because you're making judgements about me and you
don't even know me.

"Michelle C" wrote in message
...
:: During teh Christmas holidays, I invited these neighbors over for a
holiday
: drink, and James said "Michelle, you're going to have to do something
about
: those vines." When I asked him what he meant, he said that the vines were
: growing into their yard and are strangling their plants.
:
....snip....

: TIA!
: Michelle
:
:

I have no idea about the law in your area and an internatonal forum may not
be the best place to get ideas on that side of the issue.

As others have said you may not have the best neighbours in the world;
however if you really want to keep the vine AND the neighbours could you
move the vine?

What I mean is put a trellis in front of the fence (say) a yard on your side
and train the vine forward on to it over a period of time. You would then
be able to keep it off the fence from your side. They cannot complain and
the fence is still hidden by the vine that you like. This may be cheaper
than the privacy fence also.

David

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:24:19 -0500, "Michelle C"
wrote:

Three years ago, my neighbors were storing a canoe up against the chain link
fence that separates our backyards. It was an eyesore.

Use of this term always makes me bristle. Clean laundry on a line is
an "eyesore." Car restoration/repair in a driveway is an "eyesore."
Unless the canoe was emiting noxious vapors, it probably didn't
actually hurt your eyes.

It sounds as if you came up with a very satisfactory solution. For
you. Were you initially aware the vine would spread? You say you trim
*your* side every 2-3 weeks. Many people don't care for plants that
require that much maintenance.

Your neighbor very reasonably brought to your attention that *your*
plants were becoming a nuisance. Perhaps they don't regard your
"magnificent backdrop" in the same light as you do. They might even
regard it as an "eyesore." At any rate, it's become troublesome to
them.

I believe you are wrong in thinking they are unreasonable. They very
nicely said they'd be perfectly happy if you'd take care of
maintenance on their side of the fence. They did *not* ask you to
remove the plants entirely. They merely told you you had created a
quite real problem for *them* and suggested a remedy.

Well, my $0.02 would be to plant a natural fence that will block the
view...I don't know, something like Golden Bamboo :)

Before long, they won't be able to see them ATVs either if they aren't
willing to put in their yard-work time. Course that's a rude thing to do to
your OTHER neighbors....

John
snickering in this balmy houston weather

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Michelle C" wrote in message
...
WOW! You must be a lawyer! Thanks for your reply, paghat!

You're right... I'll probably end up getting a privacy fence. But if I
do,
I'll pay for the entire thing myself. They aren't the most co-operative
of
neighbors.


Some vines still find their way through every crack in those fences.

If you want revenge, bindweed's also an option, but only after you've sold
your place and are preparing to leave. :-) According to everyone I've asked,
the only way to really kill it is to use chemicals even the military is wary
of.

"Tex John" wrote in message
...
Well, my $0.02 would be to plant a natural fence that will block the
view...I don't know, something like Golden Bamboo :)

Before long, they won't be able to see them ATVs either if they aren't
willing to put in their yard-work time. Course that's a rude thing to do
to
your OTHER neighbors....

John
snickering in this balmy houston weather

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Michelle C" wrote in message
...
WOW! You must be a lawyer! Thanks for your reply, paghat!

You're right... I'll probably end up getting a privacy fence. But if I
do,
I'll pay for the entire thing myself. They aren't the most co-operative
of
neighbors.


Some vines still find their way through every crack in those fences.

Yes, Janet, I asked for opinions. I did not however ask for people who know
nothing about me to rudely criticize me for being an "unreasonable person".

Thanks anyway, and have a terrific day



But you invited "ethical" comments, and asked us to judge your
neighbours reactions and intentions, even though we don't know them. If
everyone shared your personal opinions there would be no "dilemma" in
the first place!

Oh, for God's sake! "Eyesore" is a commonly accepted figure of speech,
meaning 'unpleasant to view'. Obviously the canoe didn't cause physical pain
to my eyes.





Use of this term (eyesore) always makes me bristle. Clean laundry on a
line is
an "eyesore." Car restoration/repair in a driveway is an "eyesore."
Unless the canoe was emiting noxious vapors, it probably didn't
actually hurt your eyes.

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...

Use of this term always makes me bristle. Clean laundry on a line is
an "eyesore."

I had a neighbor who hung her laundry out. This woman must've traveled the
world to find the ugliest panties. Believe me when I tell you.....there is
an absolute definition of "eyesore". I happen to be a professionally trained
and licensed connoiseur of ladies' underwear (preferably with ladies in
them), and I'm here to tell you.....damn. I almost quit the profession.

On 1/11/05 1:37 PM, in article , "Doug
Kanter" wrote:

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...

Use of this term always makes me bristle. Clean laundry on a line is
an "eyesore."

I had a neighbor who hung her laundry out. This woman must've traveled the
world to find the ugliest panties. Believe me when I tell you.....there is
an absolute definition of "eyesore". I happen to be a professionally trained
and licensed connoiseur of ladies' underwear (preferably with ladies in
them), and I'm here to tell you.....damn. I almost quit the profession.



Doug,

If you only knew how bad I needed that laugh!


Cheryl
--
Cheryl Isaak
AHS Region 4, USDA Zone 4B/5A
growing, stitching and reading in NH

"Cheryl Isaak" wrote in message
...
On 1/11/05 1:37 PM, in article , "Doug
Kanter" wrote:

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...

Use of this term always makes me bristle. Clean laundry on a line is
an "eyesore."

I had a neighbor who hung her laundry out. This woman must've traveled
the
world to find the ugliest panties. Believe me when I tell you.....there
is
an absolute definition of "eyesore". I happen to be a professionally
trained
and licensed connoiseur of ladies' underwear (preferably with ladies in
them), and I'm here to tell you.....damn. I almost quit the profession.



Doug,

If you only knew how bad I needed that laugh!


Cheryl

The house next to mine is empty. I believe I've made you smile in the past.
Git on over here, woman!

Michelle C wrote:
Yes, Janet, I asked for opinions. I did not however ask for people who
know nothing about me to rudely criticize me for being an
"unreasonable person".

Yet you're willing to call other people ridiculous even though you know
nothing about them.

I think we're finding out far more about who you really are than you
think. For example you've made it quite clear that you only want people
to agree with your perspective. You won't even entertain viewpoints
different than your own, and quickly dismiss them. That much is quite
clear. From everything you've said in this thread so far, I'm sure your
neighbors have been walking on eggshells hoping not to be called
unreasonable or ridiculous simply for having a valid, but different
viewpoint than you.

Of course you could just present yourself poorly, and you really are a
reasonable person who is willing to view things from other perspectives.
But that's not who we're seeing.

Or is that an opinion you don't want to entertain as well?

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Compare the newest tax preparation software apps:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/taxes/index.html

Yet you're willing to call other people ridiculous even though you know
nothing about them.

Thats' not true, Warren. I did not call you ridiculous. . It was your
negative personal **comments** about me that I termed ridiculous.



I think we're finding out far more about who you really are than you
think. For example you've made it quite clear that you only want people to
agree with your perspective.

That is not true either. I welcome opinions that are presented politely. I
have done so many times in this thread. But when someone attackes me
personally, I reserve the right to speak out.



You won't even entertain viewpoints different than your own, and quickly
dismiss them.

Wrong again. Many people have said that I should remove the plants, but I
did not dismiss either them or their views.


. From everything you've said in this thread so far, I'm sure your
neighbors have been walking on eggshells hoping not to be called
unreasonable or ridiculous simply for having a valid, but different
viewpoint than you.

Wrong again. (You're on a roll.) Even when their canoe was leaned against
my fence, I did not complain. My opinion is that they can do whatever they
wish on their property.



Of course you could just present yourself poorly, and you really are a
reasonable person who is willing to view things from other perspectives.
But that's not who we're seeing.

That may be what you are seeing, but that's not the response I got from most
people. I have already agreed to trim the vines, for example - a point that
you continually overlook. And I have not objected to most of the people who
said I should remove the plants. But then, those are the people who said it
politely - without the personal attacks.

Nice chatting with you. Have a nice day!

Michelle C wrote:
But now I'm wondering who is right, and who is wrong, in this
situation? Am I right to think my neighbors are cranky?

I think the gracious thing to do is take the vine out. It doesn't really
matter which one of you is the crank. ;)

Jean
Zone 5 Ohio
Go Tribe!

Replies to newsgroup only

"Michelle C" wrote in message
...
Yes, Janet, I asked for opinions. I did not however ask for people who
know nothing about me to rudely criticize me for being an "unreasonable
person".

Thanks anyway, and have a terrific day


Urgh! Actually, he didn't accuse you of being an unreasonable person. He
suggested that your neighbours might *think* you were. There was no
suggestion or even implication that they might be right. Actually, judging
by their suggestion that you go into their yard and trim the vine, they
sound a little loopy anyway, so maybe they believe 3 or 4 ridiculous things
before lunch.

"Michelle C" wrote in
:

Even when their canoe was leaned
against my fence, I did not complain. My opinion is that they can do
whatever they wish on their property.

Super Salty Seer says: Optimistic idealists like yourself will never get
along with short-sighted pragmatists.

Since it has been determined that you are the owner of the fence, it is
your prerogative or not to tell the other party to bugger off. However,
they do have right to trim encroaching parts of the vine in a manner that
does not result in the death of your vine and if they can show that your
vine is damaging their property (and not just being a nuisance) they may be
able to take action against you. Since you have indicated that you are not
adverse to trimming both sides, you may choose that solution until it
becomes odious for whatever reason at which time you will enact the
contigency plan that you had prepared in the interim.

"Salty Thumb" wrote in message
news:iSZEd.2135$SS6.938@trnddc07...
"Michelle C" wrote in
:

Even when their canoe was leaned
against my fence, I did not complain. My opinion is that they can do
whatever they wish on their property.

Super Salty Seer says: Optimistic idealists like yourself will never get
along with short-sighted pragmatists.

Since it has been determined that you are the owner of the fence, it is
your prerogative or not to tell the other party to bugger off. However,
they do have right to trim encroaching parts of the vine in a manner that
does not result in the death of your vine and if they can show that your
vine is damaging their property (and not just being a nuisance) they may
be
able to take action against you. Since you have indicated that you are
not
adverse to trimming both sides, you may choose that solution until it
becomes odious for whatever reason at which time you will enact the
contigency plan that you had prepared in the interim.


Sorry, but I have to side with Michelle C. From the moment the neighbors
mentioned the vine, it was apparent they were petty individuals. To bitch
about a 5 minute job every 2 - 3 weeks while much more time is spent tending
their own garden is petty and doesn't even deserve a serious discussion IMO.
If Michelle does not agree to trim their side of the fence, I expect some
repercussion from the petty ones like butchering the entire vine as trimming
or killing it as some kind of challenge. Such behavior is childish. So rip
out the fence Michelle and put up a board one. And make it high enough the
*******s can't see what you are doing. And if you invite them over in the
spirit of the holidays again, make sure they get the rot gut liquor.

"Michelle C" wrote in message
...
Oh, for God's sake! "Eyesore" is a commonly accepted figure of speech,
meaning 'unpleasant to view'. Obviously the canoe didn't cause physical
pain
to my eyes.





Use of this term (eyesore) always makes me bristle. Clean laundry on a
line is
an "eyesore." Car restoration/repair in a driveway is an "eyesore."
Unless the canoe was emiting noxious vapors, it probably didn't
actually hurt your eyes.



Eyesore is a relative term but no matter. An eyesore up against a fence for
months is a worse one than somebody's underwear on a clothes line for an
hour or two.

"James" wrote in
:


"Salty Thumb" wrote in message
news:iSZEd.2135$SS6.938@trnddc07...
"Michelle C" wrote in
:

Even when their canoe was leaned
against my fence, I did not complain. My opinion is that they can
do whatever they wish on their property.

Super Salty Seer says: Optimistic idealists like yourself will never
get along with short-sighted pragmatists.

Since it has been determined that you are the owner of the fence, it
is your prerogative or not to tell the other party to bugger off.
However, they do have right to trim encroaching parts of the vine in
a manner that does not result in the death of your vine and if they
can show that your vine is damaging their property (and not just
being a nuisance) they may be able to take action against you. Since
you have indicated that you are not adverse to trimming both sides,
you may choose that solution until it becomes odious for whatever
reason at which time you will enact the contigency plan that you had
prepared in the interim.


Sorry, but I have to side with Michelle C. From the moment the
neighbors mentioned the vine, it was apparent they were petty
individuals. To bitch about a 5 minute job every 2 - 3 weeks while
much more time is spent tending their own garden is petty and doesn't
even deserve a serious discussion IMO. If Michelle does not agree to
trim their side of the fence, I expect some repercussion from the
petty ones like butchering the entire vine as trimming or killing it
as some kind of challenge. Such behavior is childish. So rip out the
fence Michelle and put up a board one. And make it high enough the
*******s can't see what you are doing. And if you invite them over in
the spirit of the holidays again, make sure they get the rot gut
liquor.


Well that's pretty much what I said but anyway, regardless of whether the
neighboors are assholes or not, legally, if the vines are damaging their
property, they can take legal action. It may not be cost effective to do
so, but they can do it. Likewise if Michelle can show that they caused the
death of her vine or maybe even cause any damage to the vine (on Michelle's
property) then she can take action against them. Since I guess Michelle is
not the litigious type and if in fact trimming twice as much vine is not a
big deal then why not? Of course I also think that any guest who utters
"your name here, you're going to have to do something about blah blah"
has about as much tact as a feces throwing monkey, to the end that any
amount of trimming will eventually become unsatisfactory, additional
demands will probably be made and Michelle will decide to effectively tell
the neighbors to bugger off and put up a solid fence or enact some other
suitable solution that obviates the original problem.

Ethically, if Michelle were the neighbor, having different circumstances
and different values, would doubtless not want somebody else's vines pretty
or no encroaching on her own flowers. So ethically, you would think
Michelle would want to do something about it. Now normally, I don't think
people go willy nilly into other people's yards to trim their own plants,
but as that solution has been presented as suitable to both parties at
least in temporarily, then it seems the best interim solution. I also
think that Michelle finds the neighbors in some way irksome, so I guess she
might get tired of the double trimming and enact a more permanent solution,
such as a new fence or moving the vine x distance inside her property onto
a trellis or some kind.

In article , "James"
wrote:

"Michelle C" wrote in message
...
Oh, for God's sake! "Eyesore" is a commonly accepted figure of speech,
meaning 'unpleasant to view'. Obviously the canoe didn't cause physical
pain
to my eyes.





Use of this term (eyesore) always makes me bristle. Clean laundry on a
line is
an "eyesore." Car restoration/repair in a driveway is an "eyesore."
Unless the canoe was emiting noxious vapors, it probably didn't
actually hurt your eyes.



Eyesore is a relative term but no matter. An eyesore up against a fence for
months is a worse one than somebody's underwear on a clothes line for an
hour or two.

Sheets & clothes & linens on a clothesline are kind of nostalgic to me, &
not an eyesoar. In this day & age everyone has a dryer; it's been a long
time since I've seen clothes out on a line. But I remember my
great-grandma Elva using a very old-fashioned washing machine with a
hand-turned pair of rollers for a "wringer," then everything after it had
been through the wringer at least twice was hung outside on three long
clotheslines. It was fun to run after the guinea-hens & chickens between
the rows of hanging garments & sheets & towels, & push one's face into a
stiffening sun-warmed sheet that smelled like summer.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

"Salty Thumb" wrote in message
news:sf0Fd.2694$SS6.986@trnddc07...
"James" wrote in
:


"Salty Thumb" wrote in message
news:iSZEd.2135$SS6.938@trnddc07...
"Michelle C" wrote in
:

Even when their canoe was leaned
against my fence, I did not complain. My opinion is that they can
do whatever they wish on their property.

Super Salty Seer says: Optimistic idealists like yourself will never
get along with short-sighted pragmatists.

Since it has been determined that you are the owner of the fence, it
is your prerogative or not to tell the other party to bugger off.
However, they do have right to trim encroaching parts of the vine in
a manner that does not result in the death of your vine and if they
can show that your vine is damaging their property (and not just
being a nuisance) they may be able to take action against you. Since
you have indicated that you are not adverse to trimming both sides,
you may choose that solution until it becomes odious for whatever
reason at which time you will enact the contigency plan that you had
prepared in the interim.


Sorry, but I have to side with Michelle C. From the moment the
neighbors mentioned the vine, it was apparent they were petty
individuals. To bitch about a 5 minute job every 2 - 3 weeks while
much more time is spent tending their own garden is petty and doesn't
even deserve a serious discussion IMO. If Michelle does not agree to
trim their side of the fence, I expect some repercussion from the
petty ones like butchering the entire vine as trimming or killing it
as some kind of challenge. Such behavior is childish. So rip out the
fence Michelle and put up a board one. And make it high enough the
*******s can't see what you are doing. And if you invite them over in
the spirit of the holidays again, make sure they get the rot gut
liquor.


Well that's pretty much what I said but anyway, regardless of whether the
neighboors are assholes or not, legally, if the vines are damaging their
property, they can take legal action. It may not be cost effective to do
so, but they can do it. Likewise if Michelle can show that they caused
the
death of her vine or maybe even cause any damage to the vine (on
Michelle's
property) then she can take action against them. Since I guess Michelle
is
not the litigious type and if in fact trimming twice as much vine is not a
big deal then why not? Of course I also think that any guest who utters
"your name here, you're going to have to do something about blah blah"
has about as much tact as a feces throwing monkey, to the end that any
amount of trimming will eventually become unsatisfactory, additional
demands will probably be made and Michelle will decide to effectively tell
the neighbors to bugger off and put up a solid fence or enact some other
suitable solution that obviates the original problem.

Ethically, if Michelle were the neighbor, having different circumstances
and different values, would doubtless not want somebody else's vines
pretty
or no encroaching on her own flowers. So ethically, you would think
Michelle would want to do something about it. Now normally, I don't think
people go willy nilly into other people's yards to trim their own plants,
but as that solution has been presented as suitable to both parties at
least in temporarily, then it seems the best interim solution. I also
think that Michelle finds the neighbors in some way irksome, so I guess
she
might get tired of the double trimming and enact a more permanent
solution,
such as a new fence or moving the vine x distance inside her property onto
a trellis or some kind.

Yes. We agree on the neighbors but you talk as if this should maybe be a
legal case. Now I ask you, is a bloody vine worth the trouble of time and
money for the creeps that live next door. There are a number of ways that
the "problem could be handled". The simplest being to rip the damn vine out
in the first place and plant a bush when the canoe comes back (and it
probably will if not something worse). Neighbors (at least a lot of them)
love to moan and bitch about another neighbor and a private "one-upmanship"
begins. Those would be more fun to keep tabs on rather than legal ones.
Yeah, yeah, we are a llitigious society but this doesn't even measure up to
Judge Judy.

What Michelle should do IMO is either get rid of the vine and do something
else or create a smiling type war of irksome antics like erecting a board
fence with the other side painted a flourescent color. That kind of stuff.
Make the creep paint the thing, thinking he is getting even. Now THAT'S
entertainment for the whole neighborhood and she will make many friends for
those holiday parties.

"paghat" wrote in message
...
In article , "James"
wrote:

"Michelle C" wrote in message
...
Oh, for God's sake! "Eyesore" is a commonly accepted figure of speech,
meaning 'unpleasant to view'. Obviously the canoe didn't cause
physical
pain
to my eyes.





Use of this term (eyesore) always makes me bristle. Clean laundry on
a
line is
an "eyesore." Car restoration/repair in a driveway is an "eyesore."
Unless the canoe was emiting noxious vapors, it probably didn't
actually hurt your eyes.



Eyesore is a relative term but no matter. An eyesore up against a fence
for
months is a worse one than somebody's underwear on a clothes line for an
hour or two.

Sheets & clothes & linens on a clothesline are kind of nostalgic to me, &
not an eyesoar. In this day & age everyone has a dryer; it's been a long
time since I've seen clothes out on a line. But I remember my
great-grandma Elva using a very old-fashioned washing machine with a
hand-turned pair of rollers for a "wringer," then everything after it had
been through the wringer at least twice was hung outside on three long
clotheslines. It was fun to run after the guinea-hens & chickens between
the rows of hanging garments & sheets & towels, & push one's face into a
stiffening sun-warmed sheet that smelled like summer.

-paghat the ratgirl


A few still do that though not too often. I think they want the fresh airy
smell.

"James" wrote in
:

Yes. We agree on the neighbors but you talk as if this should maybe be
a legal case. Now I ask you, is a bloody vine worth the trouble of
time and money for the creeps that live next door. There are a number
of ways that the "problem could be handled". The simplest being to rip
the damn vine out in the first place and plant a bush when the canoe
comes back (and it probably will if not something worse). Neighbors
(at least a lot of them) love to moan and bitch about another neighbor
and a private "one-upmanship" begins. Those would be more fun to keep
tabs on rather than legal ones. Yeah, yeah, we are a llitigious
society but this doesn't even measure up to Judge Judy.

I don't think it should be a court case, however, the subject is
"Legal/Ethical Dilemma", not "how do I handle my unseemly neighbor".
However, if it comes that then it pays to be on the law's side. To
answer your question, if I like the vine, then I don't really care what
the neighbors think as long as I am not being unreasonable. Unreasonable
being if I planted an invasive vine that crawls all over the place,
destroys their property or eats their children or anything that otherwise
does not CMA legally.

What Michelle should do IMO is either get rid of the vine and do
something else or create a smiling type war of irksome antics like
erecting a board fence with the other side painted a flourescent
color. That kind of stuff. Make the creep paint the thing, thinking he
is getting even. Now THAT'S entertainment for the whole neighborhood
and she will make many friends for those holiday parties.

Fortunately I don't think Michelle is the type to be so petulant as to
bother to paint the neighbor's side of a new fence a fluorescent color.
At any rate, if she wanted to be spiteful, then why would choose your
first option and remove the vine? It's her fence. her vine. If the
neighbors have a problem with it, then it's their problem. If they
decide to spitefully ripe out the vine, then Michelle can take legal
action or she can move on. Of course if she wanted to waste her time
with little Mickey Mouse games, she could do that too. To be blunt, if
you think that painting a fence one color in order to induce a neighbor
to paint it a different color is anything other than stupid, then you
need to grow up.

On 1/11/05 2:19 PM, in article , "Doug
Kanter" wrote:


"Cheryl Isaak" wrote in message
...
On 1/11/05 1:37 PM, in article , "Doug
Kanter" wrote:

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...

Use of this term always makes me bristle. Clean laundry on a line is
an "eyesore."

I had a neighbor who hung her laundry out. This woman must've traveled
the
world to find the ugliest panties. Believe me when I tell you.....there
is
an absolute definition of "eyesore". I happen to be a professionally
trained
and licensed connoiseur of ladies' underwear (preferably with ladies in
them), and I'm here to tell you.....damn. I almost quit the profession.



Doug,

If you only knew how bad I needed that laugh!


Cheryl

The house next to mine is empty. I believe I've made you smile in the past.
Git on over here, woman!



Ok!

Cheryl

On 1/11/05 2:19 PM, in article , "Doug
Kanter" wrote:


"Cheryl Isaak" wrote in message
...
On 1/11/05 1:37 PM, in article , "Doug
Kanter" wrote:

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...

Use of this term always makes me bristle. Clean laundry on a line is
an "eyesore."

I had a neighbor who hung her laundry out. This woman must've traveled
the
world to find the ugliest panties. Believe me when I tell you.....there
is
an absolute definition of "eyesore". I happen to be a professionally
trained
and licensed connoiseur of ladies' underwear (preferably with ladies in
them), and I'm here to tell you.....damn. I almost quit the profession.



Doug,

If you only knew how bad I needed that laugh!


Cheryl

The house next to mine is empty. I believe I've made you smile in the past.
Git on over here, woman!




BTW - is it snowing there!
Cheryl