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#1
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missing garden friends.........
Well apparently there are quite a few missing friends from our cyber backyard. Grdngal has lost her newsgroups capability, and now I've found that the other Marilyn up in Ohio has lost HER newsgroups thanks to AOL dropping them. This is horrible!! It's like walking down the street to visit a friend's garden and discovering in the night that the whole yard has been whisked away! I guess I'll have to personally e-mail some of my garden friends to see if they're having newsgroup withdrawal. I wonder why AOL would do this? (and the server that Pam, aka grdngal, has)
madgardener up on the snowy ridge, where we FINALLY got snow (it's all gone Eastwards to North Carolina every time!) back in Faerie Holler, overlooking a beautiful wintery English Mountain in Eastern Tennessee, zone 7?, Sunset zone 36 |
#2
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They can use Google.com to read and post to Newsgroup, even if they are silly enough to stay with AOL.
I would guess AOL did this for at least a couple of reasons. -Newsgroup activity can use up a lot of bandwidth and AOL is slow enough the way it is, some readers download and upload a great deal of data. -AOL can not put spam pop-ups in your newsgroup, they want you back on their home page, clicking and buying it up, reading their advertisements. Cheers, Jim "madgardener" wrote in message ... Well apparently there are quite a few missing friends from our cyber backyard. Grdngal has lost her newsgroups capability, and now I've found that the other Marilyn up in Ohio has lost HER newsgroups thanks to AOL dropping them. This is horrible!! It's like walking down the street to visit a friend's garden and discovering in the night that the whole yard has been whisked away! I guess I'll have to personally e-mail some of my garden friends to see if they're having newsgroup withdrawal. I wonder why AOL would do this? (and the server that Pam, aka grdngal, has) madgardener up on the snowy ridge, where we FINALLY got snow (it's all gone Eastwards to North Carolina every time!) back in Faerie Holler, overlooking a beautiful wintery English Mountain in Eastern Tennessee, zone 7?, Sunset zone 36 |
#3
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Play4abuck wrote:
I would guess AOL did this for at least a couple of reasons. -Newsgroup activity can use up a lot of bandwidth and AOL is slow enough the way it is, some readers download and upload a great deal of data. So few ISP customers even know what newsgroups are that bandwidth is not an issue. In the case of AOL, a proprietary interface was used (you couldn't use a real newsreader), and it was crappy enough for text messages. I seriously doubt that they had a problem with people downloading or uploading huge quanities of binaries. -AOL can not put spam pop-ups in your newsgroup, they want you back on their home page, clicking and buying it up, reading their advertisements. It's been a while since you've been on AOL, hasn't it. Or do you not have any personal experience, and are just perpetuating misconceptions held dear by so many others who also really don't have any personal experience? Quite simplely the issue is that not enough people used newsgroups on AOL to make it worth the expense. AOL may be one of the first to completely dump Usenet because they had the additional costs associated with their proprietary interface (or a choice of revamping the service to allow real nntp traffic.) Other ISP's are finding their costs too high even without an interface to maintain. The first step, which is already pretty common, is outsourcing their Usenet servers. Next will come limiting monthly transfers to contain the costs of providing wholesale accounts to customers. Eventually Usenet will be dropped completely. For many ISP's, even if they lost every single customer to whom Usenet service is important, they'd still come out ahead. And once their compeditors stop offering unlimited Usenet, the likelyhood of losing any customers goes down. The bottom line is if every ISP dropped Usenet service tomorrow, it might make the headlines at some techie websites, and it might be worth a column inch or two on an inside page of the local paper's business section, but it wouldn't even get a passing mention on the nightly news. We Usenet users are a very small faction in today's gentified Internet community. -- Warren H. ========== Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife. Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants to go outside now. Black and Decker cordless landscaping tools: http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blac...ker/index.html |
#4
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wow, thanks for educating me Warren. to think of the gardeners as a small
fraction of users humbles me (I am most sincere in this statement) and what on earth will we do if we can't visit each other at rec.gardens?? I've made life friends here on the newsgroup over these last seven years, and hope to touch more gardeners out there with my foolish but passionate rambles and what not postings. I'm not selfish, I just appreciate what we have here. My alternative is gardenweb who is strictly monitored by Spike and I've been careful not to overstep my limits with him because I understand he can banish me from the whole thing to the Disney website. (something that smacks of freedom of speech to me, although I don't use offensive words most times, but there comes a limit to the "political correctness" that is tolerable. I posted one of my rambles on his newgroup forum but before I posted it, I had to remove my phrase of dawg eating shit from a picket fence because I knew I'd be slapped for saying the phrase no matter the appropriate description. I wonder how close sometimes we're getting to the world portrayed in the sci fi where people were fined for language use (Stallone and Bullock and Snipes) and other improper offences. (I think of the "President Swartzenegger library and have to laugh, because who would have thought of even the possibility of Gov. Swartz. back then? LOL) But again, thanks for the insightful reasonings. I'll watch closer and appreciate what I have here more. madgardener "Warren" wrote in message ... Play4abuck wrote: I would guess AOL did this for at least a couple of reasons. -Newsgroup activity can use up a lot of bandwidth and AOL is slow enough the way it is, some readers download and upload a great deal of data. So few ISP customers even know what newsgroups are that bandwidth is not an issue. In the case of AOL, a proprietary interface was used (you couldn't use a real newsreader), and it was crappy enough for text messages. I seriously doubt that they had a problem with people downloading or uploading huge quanities of binaries. -AOL can not put spam pop-ups in your newsgroup, they want you back on their home page, clicking and buying it up, reading their advertisements. It's been a while since you've been on AOL, hasn't it. Or do you not have any personal experience, and are just perpetuating misconceptions held dear by so many others who also really don't have any personal experience? Quite simplely the issue is that not enough people used newsgroups on AOL to make it worth the expense. AOL may be one of the first to completely dump Usenet because they had the additional costs associated with their proprietary interface (or a choice of revamping the service to allow real nntp traffic.) Other ISP's are finding their costs too high even without an interface to maintain. The first step, which is already pretty common, is outsourcing their Usenet servers. Next will come limiting monthly transfers to contain the costs of providing wholesale accounts to customers. Eventually Usenet will be dropped completely. For many ISP's, even if they lost every single customer to whom Usenet service is important, they'd still come out ahead. And once their compeditors stop offering unlimited Usenet, the likelyhood of losing any customers goes down. The bottom line is if every ISP dropped Usenet service tomorrow, it might make the headlines at some techie websites, and it might be worth a column inch or two on an inside page of the local paper's business section, but it wouldn't even get a passing mention on the nightly news. We Usenet users are a very small faction in today's gentified Internet community. -- Warren H. ========== Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife. Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants to go outside now. Black and Decker cordless landscaping tools: http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blac...ker/index.html |
#5
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madgardener wrote:
wow, thanks for educating me Warren. to think of the gardeners as a small fraction of users humbles me Usenet users are who I was referring to as being a small faction. There are plenty of gardeners, of varying degrees of commitment. Someone is taking care of all those beds and lawns out there. But Usenet users are a rare breed. -- Warren H. ========== Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife. Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants to go outside now. Black and Decker cordless landscaping tools: http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blac...ker/index.html |
#6
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"Warren" wrote in message
... It's been a while since you've been on AOL, hasn't it. Or do you not have any personal experience, and are just perpetuating misconceptions held dear by so many others who also really don't have any personal experience? Quite simplely the issue is that not enough people used newsgroups on AOL to make it worth the expense. AOL may be one of the first to completely dump Usenet because they had the additional costs associated with their proprietary interface (or a choice of revamping the service to allow real nntp traffic.) Other ISP's are finding their costs too high even without an interface to maintain. The first step, which is already pretty common, is outsourcing their Usenet servers. Next will come limiting monthly transfers to contain the costs of providing wholesale accounts to customers. Eventually Usenet will be dropped completely. For many ISP's, even if they lost every single customer to whom Usenet service is important, they'd still come out ahead. And once their compeditors stop offering unlimited Usenet, the likelyhood of losing any customers goes down. The bottom line is if every ISP dropped Usenet service tomorrow, it might make the headlines at some techie websites, and it might be worth a column inch or two on an inside page of the local paper's business section, but it wouldn't even get a passing mention on the nightly news. We Usenet users are a very small faction in today's gentified Internet community. -- Warren H. Several strange reasoning-points seem to have gone into aol's decision: AOL settled a suit last year brought against them by Harlan Ellison for fascilitating usenet copyright infringement. It looks like AOL for liability reasons, real or imagined, wants more of a Big Brother control of its users. They could not easily control what their users did on UseNet. For so long as AOL was storing newsgroups in their own system's memory for AOLosers' access, they may have shared liaibility for copyright-infringements. AOL proprietary system was never particularly compatible interfacing with usenet & their non-standard hook-up always cost them more to maintain. Their incompatibility did not permit aolosers to use the majority of third-party newsreader programs separate from or part of browsers (this was partly the effect of their antique system, partly intentional to keep AOLosers "coralled" & "stuck" with AOL). To hook up a third-party newsreader from an AOL connection was unnecessarily complex or required too much research for novice or would-be users of usenet to easily figure out. AOL's usenet binary access was so hamstrung & bug-ridden that it was estimated the cost to the REST of the web in transmitting AOL binaries was 700 million dollars a year, & the poky system could actually crash FTP sites. Many sites in consequence either denied access to AOL users, or allowed only one-way access so that files could be obtained but not deposited. When AOL finally decided to do something about this, it was only because of the liability issues over copyrights, not because they wanted in any way to better serve their own client base. AOL is just flat-out an inferior service & their disdain for freewheeling UseNet was always obvious. AOLosers should take this as their cue to sign up with a local ISP that will provide better support all-round. AOL had years ago cut back the number of groups they could access & attempted to start an AOLosers-only alternative to UseNet so they could better control their user-losers & limit user access to groups that were largely about easy it is to get rid of AOL. Because their own platform is second-rate & incompatible, UseNet access was a major loss-leader for AOL in ways that are not true for other ISPs. The service gave them no opportunities to increase their own profits selling their own bulletin-board usenet-like service. AOL encouratges pay-as-you-go packaged entertainment, & discourages freewheeling independence. They have attempted to charge their client base for poor versions of service that a free from any other ISP, but as this didn't pay off positively, it was always an option that if they experienced a financial pinch or needed to improve their bottom-line in a hurry, UseNet would be one of the first cost-cutting measure. AOL not only filtered & edited UseNet so heavily that continuity was impossible for some users, but their own alternate to UseNet is even more heavily censored. AOL's alternate to usenet was extremely adverse to free speech, thus was populated by weanies. AOLosers (& for a while webTV webbies, who're dying off now thank gawd) are the ones who turn up in gardening forums asking, "Can I plant flowers in dirt?" or in book collecting forums asking "how do I tell if my copy of JAWS is a first edition ora book club?" -- lowering the intellilgence level of group after group. AOL cultivates ignorance because only the ignorant would use AOL. It is the opinion of some that denying the weanier AOLosers access to UseNet is a good thing, but personally I believe in the full equal rights of the mentally retarded. That AOL is consciously adverse to free speech on Usenet was proven in 1995/96 when they interferred with news.groups.reviews due to intelligent discussions that erupted there about the failings of AOL. AOL gave access to this intelligent discussion under a new title imposed by themselves "FLAMES of AOL." It was really very clever. It attracted flamers to the group who didn't care about anything except flames, & the intelligent warnings about AOL were soon lost among the greater bulk of trolls & flamers encouraged by AOL to do this. The group soon ceased to be used for anyone but trolls. Because AOL encourages ignorance, flaming & trolling is all right by them, but intelligent discourse does not serve AOL interests. As the overall worldwide use of the web & all e-services increases, the percentage of that enormous population who accesses UseNet is a minority that does not need to be well served by AOL which relies not on continuous customer service but new novices continuously signing on unaware that almost any ISP would be an improvement. By the time AOLosers figure out how to get to UseNet, they have also begun to figure out AOL sucks, so they're the least important people to cater to inasmuch as most of them will be dumping AOL anyway. In the 1980s & 1990s Usenet was frankly a more intelligent user-friendly place. Many web historians credit 1993's AOL launch with the deterioration of UseNet's slow deterioriation until, today, the sheer weight of trolls & binary-group pornography weaken UseNet's overall value, inducing many of the more sophisticated sorts of users to forge new communities in the blogosphere instead. This is another reason some people thing cutting out AOL will improve Usenet to become more of what it once was, but I don't think AOL's initial destructive impact has been that big a factor in the last three or four years. But AOL encourages the blogosphere while discouraging UseNet because it sells packages for blogging & has more options for AOL controlling dialogues. The one component of the web that least serves corporate interests is UseNet. Corporate as well as political interests do have full-time payed bloggers to promote their agendas (although they cannot stop counter-blogging, they can at least put up pages that have no unfiltered responses). But Usenet is 100% worthless for corporate agendizing & advertising, thus restricting UseNet is something AOL has always attempted. Their enemy is "community," any community which they cannot control. Imagine what would happen if AOL spammed UseNet the way they send junkmail to every resident on earth with a mail box. Every special offer from AOL if inserted onto UseNet as "news" would be followed by hundreds of angry flames & helpful ex-AOLosers eager to tell fellow UseNet users about the oh-so-many better choices. AOL's deserved thrashing on UseNet (as well as in the blogosphere) has been one of many years duration, encouraging AOL's longstanding censorship of & eventual ditching of UseNet. AOLosers should be able to get access by checking out easynews.com or usenet.com at least until they work up the gumption to get a QUALITY isp that doesn't censor & does provide all services. Remember the world wide slogan, AOL SUCKS: http://pages.sbcglobal.net/cybersaur/aol_sucks.htm Why AOL is not a wise choice: http://geocities.com/tara_d8/aolsux2.html -paghat the ratgirl -- Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government." -Thomas Jefferson |
#7
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On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:25:14 -0500, "madgardener"
wrote: wow, thanks for educating me Warren. to think of the gardeners as a small fraction of users humbles me (I am most sincere in this statement) and what on earth will we do if we can't visit each other at rec.gardens?? I've made life friends here on the newsgroup over these last seven years, and hope to touch more gardeners out there with my foolish but passionate rambles and what not postings. I'm not selfish, I just appreciate what we have here. My alternative is gardenweb who is strictly monitored by Spike and I've been careful not to overstep my limits with him because I understand he can I realize that my message here is doing little more than taking up space, but I must add that I am also greatly appreciative that this group has hung together so well for so long. My interest here follows the seasons, I generally drop out near the end of the summer and resubscribe in January, when the gardening itch demands scratching. I've participated in numerous groups, both Usenet and Listservs, over the years, and I'm so happy that this group has not been overtaken by spammers or control freaks. Thanks guys. -- Mr Gardener -- Zone 5 - On The Maine Coast |
#8
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makes sense to me. That and my server's secretary said that the lovers of porn were messing it up for those of us who garden. (don't flame me about the porn comment, what you look at is your business and part of freedoms taken forgranted, I just don't agree with pushing your tastes on those who don't want it). The band width thing is exactly what is all the hubbub. I myself despise that all those pop up's are everywhere and that they're also applying tracking methods to monitor me. I can't visit my comics page without my spydoc telling me I'm stepping into shark infested waters................sigh........................ ...
madgardener who got another good inch and quarter of needed snow up on the ridge, back in Faerie Holler, overlooking a snowy and picturesque English Mountain in Eastern Tennessee zone 7?, Sunset zone 36 "Play4abuck" wrote in message news:4J3Vd.9$Wy.4@okepread02... They can use Google.com to read and post to Newsgroup, even if they are silly enough to stay with AOL. I would guess AOL did this for at least a couple of reasons. -Newsgroup activity can use up a lot of bandwidth and AOL is slow enough the way it is, some readers download and upload a great deal of data. -AOL can not put spam pop-ups in your newsgroup, they want you back on their home page, clicking and buying it up, reading their advertisements. Cheers, Jim "madgardener" wrote in message ... Well apparently there are quite a few missing friends from our cyber backyard. Grdngal has lost her newsgroups capability, and now I've found that the other Marilyn up in Ohio has lost HER newsgroups thanks to AOL dropping them. This is horrible!! It's like walking down the street to visit a friend's garden and discovering in the night that the whole yard has been whisked away! I guess I'll have to personally e-mail some of my garden friends to see if they're having newsgroup withdrawal. I wonder why AOL would do this? (and the server that Pam, aka grdngal, has) madgardener up on the snowy ridge, where we FINALLY got snow (it's all gone Eastwards to North Carolina every time!) back in Faerie Holler, overlooking a beautiful wintery English Mountain in Eastern Tennessee, zone 7?, Sunset zone 36 |
#9
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madgardener wrote:
I myself despise that all those pop up's are everywhere Although I don't really know what I'm doing half the time on the computer, my cable connection works great for me. I started out with AOL and then my grown son had me switch to a local cheaper ISP. He said worse things about AOL than it sucked. After I got the hang of that, I went to cable. I don't have any pop ups, and so far, no spam. Not one bit since AOL. I remember Marilyn from my AOL days. I wish you could change your isp someday. Jean from Ohio too |
#10
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MY problem is where I live in Eastern Tennessee isn't offering cable
internet yet. I am tethered to an ISDN line thru BellSouth and my server provider is now businesses only but still has a few of us die hards who love his services who are residents. I am one of those die hards. When I can get cable internet (DSL) then I am outa there............I not only pay Bellsouth for the ISDN lines each month (it's a given considering it's my ONLY alternative, and yes I considered satellite service thru Direct t.v. but no thank you, bad enough when a really powerful storm cell knocks out my t.v. services including my desperately needed local stations I pay for and what good is that when there is a nasty tornado or storm approaching? but to also lose my internet capabilities too? no thank you but I also have my ISDN service fee's which cost me $49 every month...............huge sigh. one day I hope to have located either an affordable ISDN service, or DSL will come because so many people are moving here that actually HAVE computers! (the population here is astounding. apparently the slogan "tennessee is the place to be" is catching fire. EVERYONE is relocating here. Now if only the wages would rise at the jobs around here...........................and who knows? maybe we'll get that traffic light in town! LOL yeppers, we still don't have a traffic light in town. I think it'll come soon enough. one nasty traffic accident by some old person turning into the local store and someone not paying attention going in the opposite direction who shouldn't be driving faster than 40 will sadly be the reason we'll finally get that much needed light.............(we've needed two of them now for as long as I've been here, which is 13 years now) back to the subject, I just have to patiently wait for other options for internet services. despite that I love the quality of service provided by V.I.C. I'd leave in a heartbeat if I could cut my provider fee's in half and drop that ISDN line fee with Bellsouth..................... of course having DSL would be a whole different breed of cat too.......I better be careful what I wish for unless I know what I'm reaching into, right? madgardener trying to recover from spreading herself too thin these last three weeks "Jeana" wrote in message news:dToVd.1360$ju.1327@okepread07... madgardener wrote: I myself despise that all those pop up's are everywhere Although I don't really know what I'm doing half the time on the computer, my cable connection works great for me. I started out with AOL and then my grown son had me switch to a local cheaper ISP. He said worse things about AOL than it sucked. After I got the hang of that, I went to cable. I don't have any pop ups, and so far, no spam. Not one bit since AOL. I remember Marilyn from my AOL days. I wish you could change your isp someday. Jean from Ohio too |
#11
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In article , madgardener wrote:
one day I hope to have located either an affordable ISDN service, or DSL will come because so many people are moving here that actually HAVE computers! That's so odd. I'm just a little south of you in the even more rural NW Georgia, and we've had DSL for some time. I was hesitant to move out here in part because I was worried about connectivity, but there's actually competition between the Alltel's DSL and Charter cable. The only thing that has bothered me is that it is a little pricey to get a static IP address. billo |
#12
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Hi Maddy!!!
I just got cable as of Friday so now I can actually pull up this newsgroup the way I want to. I had to use google before and it was a pain. I'm so excited! This is way cool so I hope you get it too someday. I have been out today and edging one of my flower beds. It felt so good to be out doing stuff but I got tired and sore before I got done. I'm just getting old! Did I tell you that I'm into worm composting? I have even gotten my class to do it too. These "pets" are much easier to care for than most pets! Hope you had a good weekend. loony madgardener wrote: MY problem is where I live in Eastern Tennessee isn't offering cable internet yet. I am tethered to an ISDN line thru BellSouth and my server provider is now businesses only but still has a few of us die hards who love his services who are residents. I am one of those die hards. When I can get cable internet (DSL) then I am outa there............I not only pay Bellsouth for the ISDN lines each month (it's a given considering it's my ONLY alternative, and yes I considered satellite service thru Direct t.v. but no thank you, bad enough when a really powerful storm cell knocks out my t.v. services including my desperately needed local stations I pay for and what good is that when there is a nasty tornado or storm approaching? but to also lose my internet capabilities too? no thank you but I also have my ISDN service fee's which cost me $49 every month...............huge sigh. one day I hope to have located either an affordable ISDN service, or DSL will come because so many people are moving here that actually HAVE computers! (the population here is astounding. apparently the slogan "tennessee is the place to be" is catching fire. EVERYONE is relocating here. Now if only the wages would rise at the jobs around here...........................and who knows? maybe we'll get that traffic light in town! LOL yeppers, we still don't have a traffic light in town. I think it'll come soon enough. one nasty traffic accident by some old person turning into the local store and someone not paying attention going in the opposite direction who shouldn't be driving faster than 40 will sadly be the reason we'll finally get that much needed light.............(we've needed two of them now for as long as I've been here, which is 13 years now) back to the subject, I just have to patiently wait for other options for internet services. despite that I love the quality of service provided by V.I.C. I'd leave in a heartbeat if I could cut my provider fee's in half and drop that ISDN line fee with Bellsouth..................... of course having DSL would be a whole different breed of cat too.......I better be careful what I wish for unless I know what I'm reaching into, right? madgardener trying to recover from spreading herself too thin these last three weeks "Jeana" wrote in message news:dToVd.1360$ju.1327@okepread07... madgardener wrote: I myself despise that all those pop up's are everywhere Although I don't really know what I'm doing half the time on the computer, my cable connection works great for me. I started out with AOL and then my grown son had me switch to a local cheaper ISP. He said worse things about AOL than it sucked. After I got the hang of that, I went to cable. I don't have any pop ups, and so far, no spam. Not one bit since AOL. I remember Marilyn from my AOL days. I wish you could change your isp someday. Jean from Ohio too |
#13
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ISPs know that only a tiny fraction of their customers use, or even know
about, usenet, yet it ties up a lot of their time and equipment. They can improve their earnings by dropping usenet, as only a few customers will leave when they do that. Some ISPs just eliminate the equipment for usenet, and buy feed from one of the usenet services, at a discount. Mine does that and we never knew it when they made the switch, but now when I ask them to add a newsgroup, they say they can't, as it is out of their control. Google can be used, or if you want the best service, you can sign up with one of the usenet providers; I think most cost about $10 a month. madgardener wrote: Well apparently there are quite a few missing friends from our cyber backyard. Grdngal has lost her newsgroups capability, and now I've found that the other Marilyn up in Ohio has lost HER newsgroups thanks to AOL dropping them. This is horrible!! It's like walking down the street to visit a friend's garden and discovering in the night that the whole yard has been whisked away! I guess I'll have to personally e-mail some of my garden friends to see if they're having newsgroup withdrawal. I wonder why AOL would do this? (and the server that Pam, aka grdngal, has) madgardener up on the snowy ridge, where we FINALLY got snow (it's all gone Eastwards to North Carolina every time!) back in Faerie Holler, overlooking a beautiful wintery English Mountain in Eastern Tennessee, zone 7?, Sunset zone 36 -- SPAMBLOCK NOTICE! To reply to me, delete the h from apkh.net, if it is there. |
#14
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Quote:
Hi Madgardener, Your cyber friends can reach these posts at a free forum where I access it. It's the General Gardening catagory. https://www.gardenbanter.co.uk/ Newt
__________________
When weeding, the best way to make sure you are removing a weed and not a valuable plant is to pull on it. If it comes out of the ground easily, it is a valuable plant. |
#15
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Newt expounded:
Your cyber friends can reach these posts at a free forum where I access it. It's the General Gardening catagory. http://tinyurl.com/57ofx My goodness, Newt, you have the best links! Thanx for posting that one! -- Ann, gardening in Zone 6a South of Boston, Massachusetts e-mail address is not checked ****************************** |
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