bungadora wrote:
"Travis" wrote:

Google is your friend.

Actually I'm posting and reading through google at present so google
really is my friend. For some reason, I don't see most of your posts
unless you're quoted.

I was referring to Google the search engine.


Doug Kanter wrote:
She asked for comments from people reading this thread, not 289
pages of google results tangled like spaghetti.

Thanks. I googled. Interesting stuff but not really what I was
looking for. Apparently it is used in the petroleum industry, which
explains why there is a local manufacturer. But no one in the
google results actually reported back and said how well it worked.

Reading this thread, I vote for the raised bed option. My back yard
is post-developer clay. IME a heck of a lot of compost and other
conditioner is needed to do it all at one time and just get up to
workable soil. Which is OK. Digging up one bed a year is more my
speed. Some areas of the yard are worse than others. The bed I've
started by the back step just sucks up anything I give it, but it
still looks the same.

Dora

It is used in gardening. It is used in cattle/cows also.

--

Travis in Shoreline Washington

"bungadora" wrote in message
oups.com...

My back yard is
post-developer clay.

Ya know, I don't go around feeling other peoples' soil (although I'd like
to), but we see this type of comment here often enough to make me wonder
why. Is screwed up soil the result of compression from construction
equipment, or do some developers strip off a layer of soil? If the latter, I
have an unscientific not-enough-coffee-yet question: WTF??? Why do new home
buyers allow this to happen? Why not prohibit it, contractually in the
purchase agreement, and pace around the construction site in a menacing
fashion with a rifle?

And, why do some light beers taste better than others?

Doug Kanter wrote:
"bungadora" wrote in message
oups.com...

My back yard is
post-developer clay.

Ya know, I don't go around feeling other peoples' soil (although I'd
like
to), but we see this type of comment here often enough to make me
wonder
why. Is screwed up soil the result of compression from construction
equipment, or do some developers strip off a layer of soil? If the
latter, I
have an unscientific not-enough-coffee-yet question: WTF??? Why do
new home
buyers allow this to happen? Why not prohibit it, contractually in
the
purchase agreement, and pace around the construction site in a
menacing
fashion with a rifle?

Well, this place was developed in the 1970's-80's so I wasn't involved
in the construction. They scraped everything off and then bulldozed it
back on again. I remember biking by at the time 20 or so years ago. No
one who has lived in this unit since has done a thing. For the vast
majority of homes, I suspect too few people really care for it to
become a common practise.

From what I gather, with many new homes, the developer 'landscapes' but
that often doesn't include the soil quality. Usually it just pertains
to a couple of poor quality trees being plopped into the yard.

And, why do some light beers taste better than others?

Now that is a question to contemplate over the weekend.
Dora

"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:

"bungadora" wrote in message
oups.com...

My back yard is
post-developer clay.

Ya know, I don't go around feeling other peoples' soil (although I'd
like to), but we see this type of comment here often enough to make me
wonder why. Is screwed up soil the result of compression from
construction equipment, or do some developers strip off a layer of
soil? If the latter, I have an unscientific not-enough-coffee-yet
question: WTF??? Why do new home buyers allow this to happen? Why not
prohibit it, contractually in the purchase agreement, and pace around
the construction site in a menacing fashion with a rifle?

1. Developer clear cuts site, all dropped trees are ground up/hammered into
mulch.
2. Stumps and ground vegetation are bulldozed into piles and meet the same
fate.
3. All that organic material is taken to the landfill-- totally wasted.
4. 'Overburden' is scraped off the site-- i.e., all the organic topsoil
which is unstable. Depending upon the developer and size of the lot, the
overburden is either stored on site or sold to another developer.
5. Bulldozers, graders, and other massive treaded equipment is moved in and
the site gets manipulated to meet the grading requirements of the
development. 99.998% of the time, the architect/planners who designed the
development never even saw the space in which it's going to be built, nor
do they care-- the existing terrain is an obstacle to be overcome, smashed
and destroyed in order to make the site fit the houses, not the other way
around.

Now, somewhere around the third word of sentence 1., the equipment has
destroyed decades, perhaps centuries, of soil tilth and fertility. When a
heavy vehicle rolls over woodland terrain, the tilth is crushed right out
of the soil structure, just like an aluminum can getting crushed.

The developer's goal is to leave nothing but easily worked and stable clay
soil to use as backfill against foundations. After the homes are built,
individual lots are graded smooth by repeated passes of multi-ton
bulldozers and graders until the clay has all the fertility of portland
cement. My experience has been that few if any builders replace the topsoil
which was originally in place-- at the most they may put a thin layer of
manufactured topsoil where planned planting beds will go, but more likely
than not they simply slam the landscape plants into the ground and either
lay sod directly onto the backfill or shredded hardwood mulch around the
plants. Congratulations! You have a lovely new home!



--
David J. Bockman, Fairfax, VA (USDA Hardiness Zone 7)
email:
http://beyondgardening.com/Albums

David Bockman expounded:

4. 'Overburden' is scraped off the site-- i.e., all the organic topsoil
which is unstable. Depending upon the developer and size of the lot, the
overburden is either stored on site or sold to another developer.

Fortunately around here they aren't allowed to haul the topsoil away.
Bylaws state the developer needs to keep the topsoil onsite and use it
on the lots. Now whether or not they all do it is another story......
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

The top soil and the rest of the excavated soil is usually mixed and
then spread over the site with the top soil finally mixed with or
buried under the subsoil.

Buy Schultz Clay Soil Conditioner in 10 or 40 pound bags. Also sold as
Profile and Vole Blocker. It is a heat expanded and then crushed mineral
product and is a permanent fix for clay soils. I have used for 4 or 5 years
and the clay soil continues to be loose. Schultz recommends using 1 part
conditioner to 4 parts soil or a 1 inch layer mixed with the soil. I found
3 inches
to be better. It would still be good to add organic matter for the nutrient
value.

Over the years I have used perlite, vermiculite and small pea gravel which
also improve the air, water and solid mix.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
.....with a qualification: This is for a friend who hopes to grow a few
vegetables NOW. Onward: Went to a friend's house to help her put in a bunch
of plant seedlings before she left on a trip. When I went to weed the
planting area, I discovered clay like I've never dealt with before except in
a pottery class. You know how you try and break bad news gently to friends?
Not this time: "S, you have to be f~~king kidding me! How long have you
known about this?" Well, she's new at it, and not familiar with the wide
spectrum of possible soil conditions. To her, this was within the range of
acceptable. She'll find out otherwise when her carrots stage a rebellion. It
hadn't rained in a week, but a small handful of this stuff weighted about
300 lbs. :-) I made some nice figurines and a bowl out of it.

I know how to add improvements that will benefit her NEXT season (alfalfa
cover crop, etc). But, is there anything at all that'll lighten this stuff
up even a little, right now, assuming our backs are capable of turning over
more than 4 square feet of it per day?

Thanks for the tip - I spotted that yesterday at a garden center. It's on
the list of "possibles".

"nonews" wrote in message
.. .

Buy Schultz Clay Soil Conditioner in 10 or 40 pound bags. Also sold as
Profile and Vole Blocker. It is a heat expanded and then crushed mineral
product and is a permanent fix for clay soils. I have used for 4 or 5
years
and the clay soil continues to be loose. Schultz recommends using 1 part
conditioner to 4 parts soil or a 1 inch layer mixed with the soil. I
found
3 inches
to be better. It would still be good to add organic matter for the
nutrient
value.

Over the years I have used perlite, vermiculite and small pea gravel which
also improve the air, water and solid mix.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
....with a qualification: This is for a friend who hopes to grow a few
vegetables NOW. Onward: Went to a friend's house to help her put in a
bunch
of plant seedlings before she left on a trip. When I went to weed the
planting area, I discovered clay like I've never dealt with before except
in
a pottery class. You know how you try and break bad news gently to
friends?
Not this time: "S, you have to be f~~king kidding me! How long have you
known about this?" Well, she's new at it, and not familiar with the wide
spectrum of possible soil conditions. To her, this was within the range of
acceptable. She'll find out otherwise when her carrots stage a rebellion.
It
hadn't rained in a week, but a small handful of this stuff weighted about
300 lbs. :-) I made some nice figurines and a bowl out of it.

I know how to add improvements that will benefit her NEXT season (alfalfa
cover crop, etc). But, is there anything at all that'll lighten this stuff
up even a little, right now, assuming our backs are capable of turning
over
more than 4 square feet of it per day?

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the tip - I spotted that yesterday at a garden center. It's on
the list of "possibles".

Pretty pricey for what is essentially kitty litter.

Schultz Clay Soil Conditioner
"Made from 100% natural kiln-fired fuller's earth"

Google "fuller's earth".

Chemical & Engineering News
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/whatstuff/stuff/8217kitty.html
The secret to Lowe's Kitty Litter is granulated Fuller's earth

What's the scoop?
http://members.tripod.com/~earthdude...ty_litter.html

"nonews" wrote in message
.. .

Buy Schultz Clay Soil Conditioner in 10 or 40 pound bags. Also sold as
Profile and Vole Blocker. It is a heat expanded and then crushed
mineral
product and is a permanent fix for clay soils. I have used for 4 or 5
years
and the clay soil continues to be loose. Schultz recommends using 1
part
conditioner to 4 parts soil or a 1 inch layer mixed with the soil. I
found
3 inches
to be better. It would still be good to add organic matter for the
nutrient
value.

Over the years I have used perlite, vermiculite and small pea gravel
which
also improve the air, water and solid mix.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
....with a qualification: This is for a friend who hopes to grow a few
vegetables NOW. Onward: Went to a friend's house to help her put in a
bunch
of plant seedlings before she left on a trip. When I went to weed the
planting area, I discovered clay like I've never dealt with before
except
in
a pottery class. You know how you try and break bad news gently to
friends?
Not this time: "S, you have to be f~~king kidding me! How long have you
known about this?" Well, she's new at it, and not familiar with the wide
spectrum of possible soil conditions. To her, this was within the range
of
acceptable. She'll find out otherwise when her carrots stage a
rebellion.
It
hadn't rained in a week, but a small handful of this stuff weighted
about
300 lbs. :-) I made some nice figurines and a bowl out of it.

I know how to add improvements that will benefit her NEXT season
(alfalfa
cover crop, etc). But, is there anything at all that'll lighten this
stuff
up even a little, right now, assuming our backs are capable of turning
over
more than 4 square feet of it per day?

Doug Kanter wrote:

....with a qualification: This is for a friend who hopes to grow a few
vegetables NOW. Onward: Went to a friend's house to help her put in a bunch
of plant seedlings before she left on a trip. When I went to weed the
planting area, I discovered clay like I've never dealt with before except in
a pottery class. You know how you try and break bad news gently to friends?
Not this time: "S, you have to be f~~king kidding me! How long have you
known about this?" Well, she's new at it, and not familiar with the wide
spectrum of possible soil conditions. To her, this was within the range of
acceptable. She'll find out otherwise when her carrots stage a rebellion. It
hadn't rained in a week, but a small handful of this stuff weighted about
300 lbs. :-) I made some nice figurines and a bowl out of it.

I know how to add improvements that will benefit her NEXT season (alfalfa
cover crop, etc). But, is there anything at all that'll lighten this stuff
up even a little, right now, assuming our backs are capable of turning over
more than 4 square feet of it per day?


Gypsum is the standard solution to breaking up garden clay. Home Depot
sells it. Rent a power tiller.

"William W. Plummer" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

....with a qualification: This is for a friend who hopes to grow a few
vegetables NOW. Onward: Went to a friend's house to help her put in a
bunch of plant seedlings before she left on a trip. When I went to weed
the planting area, I discovered clay like I've never dealt with before
except in a pottery class. You know how you try and break bad news gently
to friends? Not this time: "S, you have to be f~~king kidding me! How
long have you known about this?" Well, she's new at it, and not familiar
with the wide spectrum of possible soil conditions. To her, this was
within the range of acceptable. She'll find out otherwise when her
carrots stage a rebellion. It hadn't rained in a week, but a small
handful of this stuff weighted about 300 lbs. :-) I made some nice
figurines and a bowl out of it.

I know how to add improvements that will benefit her NEXT season (alfalfa
cover crop, etc). But, is there anything at all that'll lighten this
stuff up even a little, right now, assuming our backs are capable of
turning over more than 4 square feet of it per day?
Gypsum is the standard solution to breaking up garden clay. Home Depot
sells it. Rent a power tiller.

The plot thickens. My friend's dad is a farmer. We got a local suggestion
for adding shredded hay as a "semi-sorta-kinda-part of the whole plan"
solution. And, I'm leaning toward explosives. I'm so glad I'm not going
through this on my property......I actually insisted on poking the earth in
about 50 spots before I signed the purchase offer on this place. The place
is an earthworm resort. Life is good.

Anything organic. We have awful clay soil here in the area, and I've found
compacted sphagnum peat to be the most economical, and really works to break
up the clay structure. Don't ad it on top, as you will still have that
barrier of clay below to prevent good drainage, unless you plan to use
raised beds. Otherwise, mix it in with the existing soil (or clay) to a
depth of 6-12". Don't add uncomposted organic material (leaves, etc.)
before growing, as the decomposition process will tie up nutrients and make
them unavailable to your plants. In fall, after you're finished for the
season is a good time to add that sort of thing or plant a cover crop such
as winter rye. Keep doing this every year with as much as you can afford
until you have soil as good as the farmer's!

Good luck!
Suzy, Zone 5, Wisconsin

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
....with a qualification: This is for a friend who hopes to grow a few
vegetables NOW. Onward: Went to a friend's house to help her put in a
bunch
of plant seedlings before she left on a trip. When I went to weed the
planting area, I discovered clay like I've never dealt with before except
in
a pottery class. You know how you try and break bad news gently to
friends?
Not this time: "S, you have to be f~~king kidding me! How long have you
known about this?" Well, she's new at it, and not familiar with the wide
spectrum of possible soil conditions. To her, this was within the range of
acceptable. She'll find out otherwise when her carrots stage a rebellion.
It
hadn't rained in a week, but a small handful of this stuff weighted about
300 lbs. :-) I made some nice figurines and a bowl out of it.

I know how to add improvements that will benefit her NEXT season (alfalfa
cover crop, etc). But, is there anything at all that'll lighten this stuff
up even a little, right now, assuming our backs are capable of turning
over
more than 4 square feet of it per day?

A friend just called from over the border (Pennsylvania) to say he'd stopped
in a small town for coffee, and located a source for M-80s, a firecracker
(understatement) which is supposedly illegal all over the place. I'm
thinking these could be an interesting short term solution to the soil
problem. :-)

"Suzy O" wrote in message
...
Anything organic. We have awful clay soil here in the area, and I've
found
compacted sphagnum peat to be the most economical, and really works to
break
up the clay structure. Don't ad it on top, as you will still have that
barrier of clay below to prevent good drainage, unless you plan to use
raised beds. Otherwise, mix it in with the existing soil (or clay) to a
depth of 6-12". Don't add uncomposted organic material (leaves, etc.)
before growing, as the decomposition process will tie up nutrients and
make
them unavailable to your plants. In fall, after you're finished for the
season is a good time to add that sort of thing or plant a cover crop such
as winter rye. Keep doing this every year with as much as you can afford
until you have soil as good as the farmer's!

Good luck!
Suzy, Zone 5, Wisconsin

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
....with a qualification: This is for a friend who hopes to grow a few
vegetables NOW. Onward: Went to a friend's house to help her put in a
bunch
of plant seedlings before she left on a trip. When I went to weed the
planting area, I discovered clay like I've never dealt with before except
in
a pottery class. You know how you try and break bad news gently to
friends?
Not this time: "S, you have to be f~~king kidding me! How long have you
known about this?" Well, she's new at it, and not familiar with the wide
spectrum of possible soil conditions. To her, this was within the range
of
acceptable. She'll find out otherwise when her carrots stage a rebellion.
It
hadn't rained in a week, but a small handful of this stuff weighted about
300 lbs. :-) I made some nice figurines and a bowl out of it.

I know how to add improvements that will benefit her NEXT season (alfalfa
cover crop, etc). But, is there anything at all that'll lighten this
stuff
up even a little, right now, assuming our backs are capable of turning
over
more than 4 square feet of it per day?

I had heavy clay soil... it was unfired pottery with grass growing on it!
I started with peat and gypsum sold as soil soft at wallmart.
I got 3 large bales of peat a tiller and the gypsum amd tilled ia all in.
5 hp tiller OVERLOADED on my soil push back up push back up ect to be fair
it was a 15 year old tiller from my dad.
All that peat started to rot and sucked all the N out of my soil sick
looking yellow plants and M grow only helped for 5-7 days.
That fall I got leaves from everyone I knew and just dumped the on top with
chicken wire around it to keep it from blowing away.
Spring
Tilled it all in and got a bagging lawn mower and started a compost heap
repeat.......
4 YEARS later its great I just mulch with grass clippings and the giant
worms do it all for me. Soft soil eazy digging happy plants.

I didn't see that whole thread, but I was sure happy to see yours!
I'm in West Tennessee and I too have many many moonshine jugs out there that
have not yet been fired!

I will keep your message for future reference.

Thanks!

Kate

"steve" wrote in message
...
:I had heavy clay soil... it was unfired pottery with grass growing on it!
: I started with peat and gypsum sold as soil soft at wallmart.
: I got 3 large bales of peat a tiller and the gypsum amd tilled ia all in.
: 5 hp tiller OVERLOADED on my soil push back up push back up ect to be fair
: it was a 15 year old tiller from my dad.
: All that peat started to rot and sucked all the N out of my soil sick
: looking yellow plants and M grow only helped for 5-7 days.
: That fall I got leaves from everyone I knew and just dumped the on top
with
: chicken wire around it to keep it from blowing away.
: Spring
: Tilled it all in and got a bagging lawn mower and started a compost heap
: repeat.......
: 4 YEARS later its great I just mulch with grass clippings and the giant
: worms do it all for me. Soft soil eazy digging happy plants.
:
: