well question
 

At the top of a 40' well, we have a check valve prior to pump.

With the check valve below the pump, can a hand pump be put on and used with
the electrci pump?

well question
 

"rb" wrote in message
. ..
At the top of a 40' well, we have a check valve prior to pump.

With the check valve below the pump, can a hand pump be put on and used
with the electrci pump?
Probably, but you will need a check valve between the hand pump and the user
for the electric pump.

well question
 

Chas Hurst wrote:
"rb" wrote in message
. ..
At the top of a 40' well, we have a check valve prior to pump.

With the check valve below the pump, can a hand pump be put on and
used with the electrci pump?
Probably, but you will need a check valve between the hand pump and
the user for the electric pump.

In other words, the check valve there now keeps the water from flowing
back into the underground reservoir. When you add the hand pump, you
need to add another check valve in the pipe going to it to prevent the
electric pump from sucking air through the hand pump instead of water
from the ground. Both check valves are to stop back flow.

I'm assuming you want a way to get water when power is out??

Tom J

well question
 

"Tom J" wrote in message
...
Chas Hurst wrote:
"rb" wrote in message
. ..
At the top of a 40' well, we have a check valve prior to pump.

With the check valve below the pump, can a hand pump be put on and
used with the electrci pump?
Probably, but you will need a check valve between the hand pump and
the user for the electric pump.

In other words, the check valve there now keeps the water from flowing
back into the underground reservoir. When you add the hand pump, you need
to add another check valve in the pipe going to it to prevent the electric
pump from sucking air through the hand pump instead of water from the
ground. Both check valves are to stop back flow.

I'm assuming you want a way to get water when power is out??

Tom J
The hand pump will already have an internal check valve. An addition check
valve will be needed so the hand pump can't draw water from the user of the
electric pump.

well question
 

"Chas Hurst" wrote in message
...

"Tom J" wrote in message
...
Chas Hurst wrote:
"rb" wrote in message
. ..
At the top of a 40' well, we have a check valve prior to pump.

With the check valve below the pump, can a hand pump be put on and
used with the electrci pump?
Probably, but you will need a check valve between the hand pump and
the user for the electric pump.

In other words, the check valve there now keeps the water from flowing
back into the underground reservoir. When you add the hand pump, you need
to add another check valve in the pipe going to it to prevent the
electric pump from sucking air through the hand pump instead of water
from the ground. Both check valves are to stop back flow.

I'm assuming you want a way to get water when power is out??

Tom J
The hand pump will already have an internal check valve. An addition check
valve will be needed so the hand pump can't draw water from the user of
the electric pump.

I gotta add a valve will be needed to shut off the hand pump when it's not
in use, otherwise the electric pump will pump thru it.

well question
 

Yes. The idea is to get water with no power, at least cost.

well question
 

rb wrote:
Yes. The idea is to get water with no power, at least cost.

Then my discription will work just fine, although I prefer my way, a
transfer switch on the power panel with a generator hooked to the
transfer box!!

Tom J

well question
 

"Chas Hurst" wrote in message
. ..

"Chas Hurst" wrote in message
...

"Tom J" wrote in message
...
Chas Hurst wrote:
"rb" wrote in message
. ..
At the top of a 40' well, we have a check valve prior to pump.

With the check valve below the pump, can a hand pump be put on and
used with the electrci pump?
Probably, but you will need a check valve between the hand pump and
the user for the electric pump.

In other words, the check valve there now keeps the water from flowing
back into the underground reservoir. When you add the hand pump, you
need to add another check valve in the pipe going to it to prevent the
electric pump from sucking air through the hand pump instead of water
from the ground. Both check valves are to stop back flow.

I'm assuming you want a way to get water when power is out??

Tom J
The hand pump will already have an internal check valve. An addition
check valve will be needed so the hand pump can't draw water from the
user of the electric pump.

I gotta add a valve will be needed to shut off the hand pump when it's not
in use, otherwise the electric pump will pump thru it.

Who comes up with these questions ? I need to know what he means by a 40'
well. A hand pump has limits as to how high it can lift. Then, if the lift
isn't too great, I envision a T in the main line and a shutoff valve between
the T and the hand pump.

well question
 

"Srgnt Billko" wrote in message
news:uNGxj.42775$R_5.14305@trnddc08...

Who comes up with these questions ? I need to know what he means by a 40'
well. A hand pump has limits as to how high it can lift. Then, if the
lift isn't too great, I envision a T in the main line and a shutoff valve
between the T and the hand pump.

I just realized the lift is 40'. A hand pump won't lift more than about 22'.

well question
 

"rb" wrote in message
...
Yes. The idea is to get water with no power, at least cost.


Unless the water table is within 22 or so feet vertically of the hand pump, the
hand pump won't work.

well question
 

Bob F wrote:
"rb" wrote in message
...
Yes. The idea is to get water with no power, at least cost.


Unless the water table is within 22 or so feet vertically of the
hand
pump, the hand pump won't work.

Depends on the pump - 1 of those little $15 short handle pumps, you
are correct - the larger long handle, long stroke with tight pipe and
good check valve, you are wrong. We use to hand pump from 60 feet
down to a tank on a platform 20 feet up before we got electric power.
We did finally hook a single cylinder gas engine to a jack stand to
operate the pump before getting electric to the farm. It would fill a
1000 gallon tank using 1/2 gallon of gasoline!! Yes, I'm talking about
a loooong time ago!!

Tom J

well question
 

"Tom J" wrote in message
...
Bob F wrote:
"rb" wrote in message
...
Yes. The idea is to get water with no power, at least cost.


Unless the water table is within 22 or so feet vertically of the hand
pump, the hand pump won't work.

Depends on the pump - 1 of those little $15 short handle pumps, you are
correct - the larger long handle, long stroke with tight pipe and good
check valve, you are wrong. We use to hand pump from 60 feet down to a
tank on a platform 20 feet up before we got electric power. We did finally
hook a single cylinder gas engine to a jack stand to operate the pump
before getting electric to the farm. It would fill a 1000 gallon tank
using 1/2 gallon of gasoline!! Yes, I'm talking about a loooong time ago!!

Tom J

Type of pump doesn't matter unless it's a jet-pump. The theoretical maximum
height is about 27', practical height is about 22'.

well question
 

"Chas Hurst" wrote in message
...

"Tom J" wrote in message
...
Bob F wrote:
"rb" wrote in message
...
Yes. The idea is to get water with no power, at least cost.


Unless the water table is within 22 or so feet vertically of the hand
pump, the hand pump won't work.

Depends on the pump - 1 of those little $15 short handle pumps, you are
correct - the larger long handle, long stroke with tight pipe and good
check valve, you are wrong. We use to hand pump from 60 feet down to a
tank on a platform 20 feet up before we got electric power. We did
finally hook a single cylinder gas engine to a jack stand to operate the
pump before getting electric to the farm. It would fill a 1000 gallon
tank using 1/2 gallon of gasoline!! Yes, I'm talking about a loooong time
ago!!

Tom J

Type of pump doesn't matter unless it's a jet-pump. The theoretical
maximum height is about 27', practical height is about 22'.


He's having what one might call a "pipe dream".

well question
 

"Srgnt Billko" wrote in message
news:2p0yj.38$4D2.16@trndny06...

"Chas Hurst" wrote in message
...

"Tom J" wrote in message
...
Bob F wrote:
"rb" wrote in message
...
Yes. The idea is to get water with no power, at least cost.


Unless the water table is within 22 or so feet vertically of the hand
pump, the hand pump won't work.

Depends on the pump - 1 of those little $15 short handle pumps, you are
correct - the larger long handle, long stroke with tight pipe and good
check valve, you are wrong. We use to hand pump from 60 feet down to a
tank on a platform 20 feet up before we got electric power. We did
finally hook a single cylinder gas engine to a jack stand to operate the
pump before getting electric to the farm. It would fill a 1000 gallon
tank using 1/2 gallon of gasoline!! Yes, I'm talking about a loooong
time ago!!

Tom J

Type of pump doesn't matter unless it's a jet-pump. The theoretical
maximum height is about 27', practical height is about 22'.


He's having what one might call a "pipe dream".

Bwahaha! Good 'un. How's the maple surple doing?

well question for nay sayers!!
 

Bob F wrote:
"rb" wrote in message
...
Yes. The idea is to get water with no power, at least cost.


Unless the water table is within 22 or so feet vertically of the
hand
pump, the hand pump won't work.

http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-water-pump.html

Look at the 100L hand pump. The one we had back in the 1930's
wouldn't lift 500 feet like this will but it DID do what I said it
did!! Some people just don't have a clue and all they know to do is
turn on the faucet.

Tom J

well question for nay sayers!!
 

"Tom J" wrote in message
...
Bob F wrote:
"rb" wrote in message
...
Yes. The idea is to get water with no power, at least cost.


Unless the water table is within 22 or so feet vertically of the hand
pump, the hand pump won't work.

http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-water-pump.html

Look at the 100L hand pump. The one we had back in the 1930's wouldn't
lift 500 feet like this will but it DID do what I said it did!! Some
people just don't have a clue and all they know to do is turn on the
faucet.

Tom J

Those systems place the pump down in the well within 22' of the water. You
obviously are not aware of the physics or mechanics involved with pumping
water. The atmosphere will only support a column of water about 29' high.
It's exactly the same as a mercury barometer. The atmosphere will support a
column of mercury about 30" high and no more.
It's you that hasn't a clue.

well question for nay sayers!!
 

"Ryan P." wrote in message
...
Chas Hurst wrote:

Those systems place the pump down in the well within 22' of the water.
You obviously are not aware of the physics or mechanics involved with
pumping water. The atmosphere will only support a column of water about
29' high. It's exactly the same as a mercury barometer. The atmosphere
will support a column of mercury about 30" high and no more.
It's you that hasn't a clue.
.
.
Okay, I've been following this thread, admittedly not knowing (or rather,
not remembering from school) the maximum height a column of water could be
without assistance.

That being said, I distinctly remember the old-style hand pumps... the
kind you find in state camping grounds, and used to find in highway
waysides, and people who had them on wells with a water table WELL below
22 feet.

So, I did a little checking, and came up with this table:
http://www.aermotorwindmills.com/handpumps.htm (there's a nice table about
halfway down the page).

Am I wrong in thinking this is a standard hand pump, or is this NOT what
you and Tom are talking about?

I'm not talking about different pumps. The pumps are all the same. The pump
you linked to is placed down in the well-close to, or in the water.
The 22' is not dependent on manufacture or design, it is the maximum height
of a column of water that atmospheric pressure will support. I didn't come
up with that figure; some scientist 400 years ago did. Please catch yourself
up.

well question for nay sayers!!
 

Ryan P. wrote:
.
Okay, I've been following this thread, admittedly not knowing (or
rather, not remembering from school) the maximum height a column of
water could be without assistance.

That being said, I distinctly remember the old-style hand pumps...
the kind you find in state camping grounds, and used to find in
highway waysides, and people who had them on wells with a water
table
WELL below 22 feet.

So, I did a little checking, and came up with this table:
http://www.aermotorwindmills.com/handpumps.htm (there's a nice table
about halfway down the page).

Am I wrong in thinking this is a standard hand pump, or is this NOT
what you and Tom are talking about?

The 2nd picture down is the shape of the pump we had on the farm that
did lift water from 60 feet down and pushed it 20 feet higher to a
tank. As the data table shows, those old style pumps were capable of
bringing water from 100 to 200 fett down!!

You have observed well - those are the type pumps that most windmills
were connected to all across the country before electricity was
brought to almost everyone.

Tom J

well question for nay sayers!!
 

"Ryan P." wrote in message
...
Chas Hurst wrote:

Those systems place the pump down in the well within 22' of the water.
You obviously are not aware of the physics or mechanics involved with
pumping water. The atmosphere will only support a column of water about
29' high. It's exactly the same as a mercury barometer. The atmosphere
will support a column of mercury about 30" high and no more.
It's you that hasn't a clue.
.
.
Okay, I've been following this thread, admittedly not knowing (or rather,
not remembering from school) the maximum height a column of water could be
without assistance.

That being said, I distinctly remember the old-style hand pumps... the
kind you find in state camping grounds, and used to find in highway
waysides, and people who had them on wells with a water table WELL below
22 feet.

So, I did a little checking, and came up with this table:
http://www.aermotorwindmills.com/handpumps.htm (there's a nice table about
halfway down the page).

Am I wrong in thinking this is a standard hand pump, or is this NOT what
you and Tom are talking about?

There are two kinds of pumps in this discussion. If the pump depends on
suction only and everything but the pipe is above the water, you can not
pump more than around 30 feet vertically. You are creating a vacuum and are
depending on the atmospheric pressure to push the water up the pipe.

If parts of the pump are below the water level , then is is mostly a
function of how much power or force you have to move the water. It can be
much more than 30 feet.

well question for nay sayers!!
 

on 3/1/2008 10:57 AM Tom J said the following:
Ryan P. wrote:

.
Okay, I've been following this thread, admittedly not knowing (or
rather, not remembering from school) the maximum height a column of
water could be without assistance.

That being said, I distinctly remember the old-style hand pumps...
the kind you find in state camping grounds, and used to find in
highway waysides, and people who had them on wells with a water
table
WELL below 22 feet.

So, I did a little checking, and came up with this table:
http://www.aermotorwindmills.com/handpumps.htm (there's a nice table
about halfway down the page).

Am I wrong in thinking this is a standard hand pump, or is this NOT
what you and Tom are talking about?


The 2nd picture down is the shape of the pump we had on the farm that
did lift water from 60 feet down and pushed it 20 feet higher to a
tank. As the data table shows, those old style pumps were capable of
bringing water from 100 to 200 fett down!!

You have observed well - those are the type pumps that most windmills
were connected to all across the country before electricity was
brought to almost everyone.

Tom J

The differences in hand pump depth lift depends upon whether the pumping
mechanism (the pipe, rod, and piston) is lifting the water or sucking it
up. If below the surface, yes, the water can be lifted to many heights,
because it is lifting (pushing up) the water, rather than sucking it up.
If the piston is at ground level, then the piston has to first evacuate
the air from the pipe which causes a vacuum in the pipe. It doesn't
matter whether the pump is hand powered or motor powered. The vacuum
created by evacuating the air is replaced by the water that the ambient
barometric pressure pushes down on the surface of the water.
When in the Navy, my battle station was damage control. We used a
portable water pump called a Handy Billy. It had a gas engine that drew
water from a long hose that was dropped into the flooded area. It's
maximum lift was listed as 30 feet. If the water level in the flooded
area was more than 30' from the pump, then the Handy Billy could be
moved to a lower deck that was within the 30' limit, if possible, and
its discharge could be hosed to a higher level and over the side, or
through discharge ports in the side. The pump then becomes a lifting and
pushing pump
The most use of the discharge port that was in our shop was to wrap a
piece of wire around our AM radio antenna and hang the other end out the
port, so we could pick up a signal. :-)
The Handy Billy could also be used to fight fires when the ship's power
was lost, drawing its water from the sea (as long as the sea level was
not more than 30' below the pump), and using the discharge hose as a
fire hose.


--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

well question
 

"Tom J" wrote in message
...
Bob F wrote:
"rb" wrote in message
...
Yes. The idea is to get water with no power, at least cost.


Unless the water table is within 22 or so feet vertically of the hand
pump, the hand pump won't work.

Depends on the pump - 1 of those little $15 short handle pumps, you are
correct - the larger long handle, long stroke with tight pipe and good check
valve, you are wrong. We use to hand pump from 60 feet down to a tank on a
platform 20 feet up before we got electric power. We did finally hook a single
cylinder gas engine to a jack stand to operate the pump before getting
electric to the farm. It would fill a 1000 gallon tank using 1/2 gallon of
gasoline!! Yes, I'm talking about a loooong time ago!!

Unless the actual pump mechanism is within 20 some feet of the water table, it
still won't work. The distance you can "suck" water up is limited by the
atmospheric pressure's ability to push the water up to the pump. If the pump
cylinder is 40 or more feet underground, then it would work as you say. Of
course, a 60 foot well with a 20 foot water table would be no problem.

well question for nay sayers!!
 

"Tom J" wrote in message
...
Bob F wrote:
"rb" wrote in message
...
Yes. The idea is to get water with no power, at least cost.


Unless the water table is within 22 or so feet vertically of the hand
pump, the hand pump won't work.

http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-water-pump.html

Look at the 100L hand pump. The one we had back in the 1930's wouldn't lift
500 feet like this will but it DID do what I said it did!! Some people just
don't have a clue and all they know to do is turn on the faucet.


Those units put the pump at the bottom of the well, so they are pushing the
water up, not "sucking" it up, overcoming the air pressure limits. Unless the
O.P. has room in his well for such a pump, it won't work. He can't just hook a
pump to the water pipe from the well, which is what I interpreted his question
to be asking.

well question
 

"rb" wrote in message
...
Yes. The idea is to get water with no power, at least cost.

To remenisce, I remember how jealous I was of a friend who's family had an
electric pump jack on their well pump. I had to bring in the water by hand
pumping (that was my chore). One happy kid I was when in '53 my folks
bought a house with inside plumbing. It even had a dial telephone instead
of the crank type. And you want to go back to a hand pump to save money?

Tom G.