I've read where crabgrass germination usually happens when the soil has
warmed to about 50 degrees for a couple of days (there are less precise
indications, something to do with forsithia blooming).

I believe that grabgrass germination conditions has recently (or will
soon) occurr in my area (SW-Ontario - climate similar to Detroit,
Toronto, Buffalo, Cleveland).

Here is a web-link to the specific product:

http://www.scottscanada.ca/index.cfm...37186E06EAAA9E

So my questions with regard to this product a

1) This product seems to contain the following components:
- Dimension
- Halts
- Dithiopyr

What exactly are those chemical components? What is "Halts" ?
What does each chemical do?

2) How does the efficieny or longevity of this product change
or improve or degrade in relationship to rainfall after
application? Is some rainfall after application desirable?
Will too much rainfall reduce the effectiveness or longevity
of the product?

3) For how long after application will this product remain
active or usefull at killing emerging crabgrass shoots?

[wordwrap disabled for chemical compound names/numbers]

Lawn Guy said:

I've read where crabgrass germination usually happens when the soil has
warmed to about 50 degrees for a couple of days

True.

(there are less precise indications, something to do with forsithia blooming).

If you don't own a soil thermometer, you can generally time your
application
to coincide with the blooming of Forsythia (barring any sudden, early warm
spells).


I believe that grabgrass germination conditions has recently (or will
soon) occurr in my area (SW-Ontario - climate similar to Detroit,
Toronto, Buffalo, Cleveland).

[...]

So my questions with regard to this product a

1) This product seems to contain the following components:
- Dimension
- Halts
- Dithiopyr

What exactly are those chemical components?

Dimension:

IUPAC (1): S,S¡¬-dimethyl
2-difluoromethyl-4-isobutyl-6-trifluoromethylpyridine-3,5-dicarbothioate
CAS (2): S,S¡¬-dimethyl
2-(difluoromethyl)-4-(2-methylpropyl)-6-(trifluoromethyl)-3,5-pyridinedicarbothioate
InChI (3):
InChI=1/C15H16F5NO2S2/c1-6(2)5-7-8(13(22)24-3)10(12(16)17)21-11(15(18,19)20)9(7)14(23)25-4/h6,12H,5H2,1-4H3
Formula: C15 H16 F5 NO2 S2 (apologies... subscript doesn't work here)
Chemical family: Pyridine

Exact enough?

What is "Halts" ?

Scott's tradename for their pre-emergent.

What does each chemical do?

Dimension: Selective herbicide (Dithiopyr) that controls crabgrass,
goosegrass, Poa annua, chickweed, spurge, henbit, oxalis, and other pests.


2) How does the efficieny or longevity of this product change
or improve or degrade in relationship to rainfall after
application?

It needs to be watered in to work. In a nutshell: You put down the granules
and when they come in contact with water, they dissolve, forming a barrier.
Germinating seeds can't penetrate that barrier (4). Any physical
disturbance
of the soil will result in a degradation of the product's effectiveness, or
a complete failure of the product in that area.

Is some rainfall after application desirable?

Yes.

Will too much rainfall reduce the effectiveness or longevity
of the product?

Possibly.


3) For how long after application will this product remain
active or usefull at killing emerging crabgrass shoots?

With a proper application, about five months.


(1) IUPAC: The International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry
(2) CAS: Chemical Abstracts Service
(3) INCHI: The IUPAC International Chemical Identifier
(4) Each time a seed below the barrier germinates, it pokes a small hole
in the barrier and a seed or seeds close enough to that hole /can/
eventually
penetrate it.
--

Eggs

-Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish
and he will sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

Kicks Highwinds server in the shin
Reposts via Motzarella
[wordwrap disabled for chemical compound names/numbers]

Lawn Guy said:

I've read where crabgrass germination usually happens when the soil has
warmed to about 50 degrees for a couple of days

True.

(there are less precise indications, something to do with forsithia blooming).

If you don't own a soil thermometer, you can generally time your application
to coincide with the blooming of Forsythia (barring any sudden, early warm
spells).


I believe that grabgrass germination conditions has recently (or will
soon) occurr in my area (SW-Ontario - climate similar to Detroit,
Toronto, Buffalo, Cleveland).

[...]

So my questions with regard to this product a

1) This product seems to contain the following components:
- Dimension
- Halts
- Dithiopyr

What exactly are those chemical components?

Dimension:

IUPAC (1): S,S¡¬-dimethyl 2-difluoromethyl-4-isobutyl-6-trifluoromethylpyridine-3,5-dicarbothioate
CAS (2): S,S¡¬-dimethyl 2-(difluoromethyl)-4-(2-methylpropyl)-6-(trifluoromethyl)-3,5-pyridinedicarbothioate
InChI (3):InChI=1/C15H16F5NO2S2/c1-6(2)5-7-8(13(22)24-3)10(12(16)17)21-11(15(18,19)20)9(7)14(23)25-4/h6,12H,5H2,1-4H3
Formula: C15 H16 F5 NO2 S2 (apologies... subscript doesn't work here)
Chemical family: Pyridine

Exact enough?

What is "Halts" ?

Scott's tradename for their pre-emergent.

What does each chemical do?

Dimension: Selective herbicide (Dithiopyr) that controls crabgrass,
goosegrass, Poa annua, chickweed, spurge, henbit, oxalis, and other pests.


2) How does the efficieny or longevity of this product change
or improve or degrade in relationship to rainfall after
application?

It needs to be watered in to work. In a nutshell: You put down the granules
and when they come in contact with water, they dissolve, forming a barrier.
Germinating seeds can't penetrate that barrier (4). Any physicaldisturbance
of the soil will result in a degradation of the product's effectiveness, or
a complete failure of the product in that area.

Is some rainfall after application desirable?

Yes.

Will too much rainfall reduce the effectiveness or longevity
of the product?

Possibly.


3) For how long after application will this product remain
active or usefull at killing emerging crabgrass shoots?

With a proper application, about five months.


(1) IUPAC: The International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry
(2) CAS: Chemical Abstracts Service
(3) INCHI: The IUPAC International Chemical Identifier
(4) Each time a seed below the barrier germinates, it pokes a small hole
in the barrier and a seed or seeds close enough to that hole /can/
eventually penetrate it.
--

Eggs

-Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish
and he will sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

Well, I guess that Motzarella doesn't like wordwrap disabled either. *sigh*

I concede. If you want to know the chemical makeup, Google it or do the
math. =)

Eggs Zachtly wrote:

Dimension:

(...)

Exact enough?

I should have been more clear.

What I meant to ask was, is Dimension the same as Dithiopyr? (which my
recent research indicates that it is).

What is "Halts" ?

Scott's tradename for their pre-emergent.

Is "Halts" another name for Dithiopyr?

If so, then how come it's got so many names? How can (or why does)
Stott's use two trade names (Halts and Dimension) to refer to the same
chemical (Dithiopyr) ?

2) How does the efficieny or longevity of this product change
or improve or degrade in relationship to rainfall after
application?

It needs to be watered in to work. In a nutshell: You put down the
granules and when they come in contact with water, they dissolve,
forming a barrier. Germinating seeds can't penetrate that barrier

I think that's a corny and technically incorrect explanation. I have
found a better one:

-------------
The active ingredient in Dimension (dithiopyr) enters the
crabgrass plant through its roots, shoots, crowns and leaves.
The major site of physiological activity is within developing
plant tissues found in the growing points.The mode of action
is inhibition of mitotic cell division, or the inhibition of
cell development and growth.

Dimension must come in contact with young, exposed plant
meristems in roots and shoots.This explains the selectivity
between surface germinating weeds such as crabgrass and the
exceptional safety to established turfgrasses.
--------------

Source:

http://www.dowagro.com/webapps/lit/l...1.pdf&pdf=true

That information pertains to a liquid (sprayable) version of Dimension,
and not the granular version as sold by Scotts (that includes
fertilizer).

Given that this dimension must be solubalized (dissoved) in the soil to
the extent that it must be in contact with (and taken up by) the
emerging crabgrass plant, I don't understand the prohibition against
later raking or aerating (coring).

There is some mention that while the application time for Dimension is
very early in the spring, it's not necessarily the best time to be
giving fertilizer to your lawn. So I wonder why they incorporated
fertilizer into this product.

PS: I've been buying fertilizers and herbicides for my lawn for the
past 10 years (here in Ontario) and I don't think I've ever seen this
"Halts" product (or any crab-grass control product) for sale here until
last fall. Are these products (that includes Dimension, or "Halts")
relatively new for the home-owner market?

Lawn Guy said:

Eggs Zachtly wrote:

Dimension:

(...)

Exact enough?

I should have been more clear.

What I meant to ask was, is Dimension the same as Dithiopyr? (which my
recent research indicates that it is).

Yes. They're all the same.


What is "Halts" ?

Scott's tradename for their pre-emergent.

Is "Halts" another name for Dithiopyr?

In a word, yes.


If so, then how come it's got so many names?

You still pay for the tradename "Roundup", don't you.

How can (or why does)
Stott's use two trade names (Halts and Dimension) to refer to the same
chemical (Dithiopyr) ?

Maybe you should ask Scott's. I answered your question exactly. "Halts" is
a tradename that Scott's uses for the pre-emergent that they put in their
Step 1 fertilizer. The chemical name is Dithiopyr. It was developed by
Monsanto in 1991. Dimension is a registered trademark of Dow AgroSciences.
It's the same product.


2) How does the efficieny or longevity of this product change
or improve or degrade in relationship to rainfall after
application?

It needs to be watered in to work. In a nutshell: You put down the
granules and when they come in contact with water, they dissolve,
forming a barrier. Germinating seeds can't penetrate that barrier

I think that's a corny and technically incorrect explanation.

It's not "technically incorrect". It's exactly what happens when you use
the product you're asking about. You obviously wouldn't understand a more
technical explanation, and I suggest you spend a little time reading MSDS
on products, as well as thoroughly reading labels, instead of trying to
argue about things on usenet that you know little of.

I have found a better one:

No, you haven't. You've found an explanation of a completely different form
of Dithiopyr. You state so yourself, below your source.


-------------
The active ingredient in Dimension (dithiopyr) enters the
crabgrass plant through its roots, shoots, crowns and leaves.
The major site of physiological activity is within developing
plant tissues found in the growing points.The mode of action
is inhibition of mitotic cell division, or the inhibition of
cell development and growth.

Dimension must come in contact with young, exposed plant
meristems in roots and shoots.This explains the selectivity
between surface germinating weeds such as crabgrass and the
exceptional safety to established turfgrasses.
--------------

Source:

http://www.dowagro.com/webapps/lit/l...1.pdf&pdf=true

That information pertains to a liquid (sprayable) version of Dimension,
and not the granular version as sold by Scotts (that includes
fertilizer).

Exactly. It's *not* the same product. So, why are you trying to use it's
description in lieu of what you've been given. Dimension 2EW is water
soluable. They also make Dimension Ultra 40WP. It's also water soluable,
and only available to commercial applicators (I think we're all thankful
that you're not one).


Given that this dimension must be solubalized (dissoved) in the soil to
the extent that it must be in contact with (and taken up by) the
emerging crabgrass plant, I don't understand the prohibition against
later raking or aerating (coring).

Then go for it. Put down the halts. Then aerate your lawn. Then cry to
Scott's when your crabgrass emerges. They'll laugh at you.


There is some mention that while the application time for Dimension is
very early in the spring, it's not necessarily the best time to be
giving fertilizer to your lawn. So I wonder why they incorporated
fertilizer into this product.

It's called marketing, moron. Damn, you're *still* a clueless ****.


PS: I've been buying fertilizers and herbicides for my lawn for the
past 10 years (here in Ontario) and I don't think I've ever seen this
"Halts" product (or any crab-grass control product) for sale here until
last fall. Are these products (that includes Dimension, or "Halts")
relatively new for the home-owner market?

No.

--

Eggs

..sig not found. (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?

On Apr 21, 9:29*pm, Eggs Zachtly wrote:
Lawn Guy said:

Eggs Zachtly wrote:

Dimension:

(...)

Exact enough?

I should have been more clear. *

What I meant to ask was, is Dimension the same as Dithiopyr? (which my
recent research indicates that it is).

Yes. They're all the same.



*What is "Halts" ?

Scott's tradename for their pre-emergent.

Is "Halts" another name for Dithiopyr?

In a word, yes.



If so, then how come it's got so many names? *

You still pay for the tradename "Roundup", don't you.

How can (or why does)
Stott's use two trade names (Halts and Dimension) to refer to the same
chemical (Dithiopyr) ?

Maybe you should ask Scott's. I answered your question exactly. "Halts" is
a tradename that Scott's uses for the pre-emergent that they put in their
Step 1 fertilizer. The chemical name is Dithiopyr. It was developed by
Monsanto in 1991. Dimension is a registered trademark of Dow AgroSciences..
It's the same product.



2) How does the efficieny or longevity of this product change
* *or improve or degrade in relationship to rainfall after
* *application?

It needs to be watered in to work. In a nutshell: You put down the
granules and when they come in contact with water, they dissolve,
forming a barrier. *Germinating seeds can't penetrate that barrier

I think that's a corny and technically incorrect explanation. *

It's not "technically incorrect". It's exactly what happens when you use
the product you're asking about. You obviously wouldn't understand a more
technical explanation, and I suggest you spend a little time reading MSDS
on products, as well as thoroughly reading labels, instead of trying to
argue about things on usenet that you know little of.

I have found a better one:

No, you haven't. You've found an explanation of a completely different form
of Dithiopyr. You state so yourself, below your source.







* -------------
* The active ingredient in Dimension (dithiopyr) enters the
* crabgrass plant through its roots, shoots, crowns and leaves.
* The major site of physiological activity is within developing
* plant tissues found in the growing points.The mode of action
* is inhibition of mitotic cell division, or the inhibition of
* cell development and growth.

* Dimension must come in contact with young, exposed plant
* meristems in roots and shoots.This explains the selectivity
* between surface germinating weeds such as crabgrass and the
* exceptional safety to established turfgrasses.
* --------------

Source:

http://www.dowagro.com/webapps/lit/l...h=ca/pdfs/nore....

That information pertains to a liquid (sprayable) version of Dimension,
and not the granular version as sold by Scotts (that includes
fertilizer).

Exactly. It's *not* the same product. So, why are you trying to use it's
description in lieu of what you've been given. Dimension 2EW is water
soluable. They also make Dimension Ultra 40WP. It's also water soluable,
and only available to commercial applicators (I think we're all thankful
that you're not one).



Given that this dimension must be solubalized (dissoved) in the soil to
the extent that it must be in contact with (and taken up by) the
emerging crabgrass plant, I don't understand the prohibition against
later raking or aerating (coring).

Then go for it. Put down the halts. Then aerate your lawn. Then cry to
Scott's when your crabgrass emerges. They'll laugh at you.



There is some mention that while the application time for Dimension is
very early in the spring, it's not necessarily the best time to be
giving fertilizer to your lawn. *So I wonder why they incorporated
fertilizer into this product. *

It's called marketing, moron. Damn, you're *still* a clueless ****.



PS: *I've been buying fertilizers and herbicides for my lawn for the
past 10 years (here in Ontario) and I don't think I've ever seen this
"Halts" product (or any crab-grass control product) for sale here until
last fall. *Are these products (that includes Dimension, or "Halts")
relatively new for the home-owner market?

No.

--

Eggs

.sig not found. (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I guess that about covers it.

said:

[...]

I guess that about covers it.

I thought it was covered on the first reply. Guess ya just never know. =)
--

Eggs

-A little bit of pain never hurt anyone

On Apr 22, 5:17*pm, Eggs Zachtly wrote:
said:

[...]

I guess that about covers it.

I thought it was covered on the first reply. Guess ya just never know. =)
--

Eggs

-A little bit of pain never hurt anyone

I LOVE when people ask questions and then scoff at the answer you gave
them. Guess what, figure it out yourself then, smartass.