ChemLawn / Scotts
 

I live in Northern NJ and am thinking about contracting with a lawn service
to take care of the fertilizer and other weed treatments?

I have about 1/3 acre of grass. Will the results be any better then what I
could accomplish myself?

Any recommondations.

"JonHirschman" wrote:
I live in Northern NJ and am thinking about contracting with a lawn
service to take care of the fertilizer and other weed treatments?

I have about 1/3 acre of grass. Will the results be any better then what
I could accomplish myself?

Any recommondations.

I'm not in love with your choice of vendors, but what the hey. The results
should be as good as, if not better, and if not, free service calls are
offered by all chemical lawncare firms.

Might I suggest a local smaller outfit tho?

"JonHirschman" wrote in message
news:Dsyfe.4261$N_5.1671@trndny09...
I live in Northern NJ and am thinking about contracting with a lawn service
to take care of the fertilizer and other weed treatments?

I have about 1/3 acre of grass. Will the results be any better then what
I could accomplish myself?

Any recommondations.


Depends on your goal. If the point is to poison children and birds, you can
do that more cheaply yourself. If the goal is to have a better lawn, you can
do that for next to nothing, with nothing but grass seed and intelligent
mowing. Interested?

"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"JonHirschman" wrote in message
news:Dsyfe.4261$N_5.1671@trndny09...
I live in Northern NJ and am thinking about contracting with a lawn
service to take care of the fertilizer and other weed treatments?

I have about 1/3 acre of grass. Will the results be any better then
what I could accomplish myself?

Any recommondations.


Depends on your goal. If the point is to poison children and birds, you
can do that more cheaply yourself. If the goal is to have a better lawn,
you can do that for next to nothing, with nothing but grass seed and
intelligent mowing. Interested?

Nice advice, Doug. What do you do for a living?

"Steveo" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"JonHirschman" wrote in message
news:Dsyfe.4261$N_5.1671@trndny09...
I live in Northern NJ and am thinking about contracting with a lawn
service to take care of the fertilizer and other weed treatments?

I have about 1/3 acre of grass. Will the results be any better then
what I could accomplish myself?

Any recommondations.


Depends on your goal. If the point is to poison children and birds, you
can do that more cheaply yourself. If the goal is to have a better lawn,
you can do that for next to nothing, with nothing but grass seed and
intelligent mowing. Interested?

Nice advice, Doug. What do you do for a living?

Interesting question. Why do you ask?

"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"Steveo" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"JonHirschman" wrote in message
news:Dsyfe.4261$N_5.1671@trndny09...
I live in Northern NJ and am thinking about contracting with a lawn
service to take care of the fertilizer and other weed treatments?

I have about 1/3 acre of grass. Will the results be any better then
what I could accomplish myself?

Any recommondations.


Depends on your goal. If the point is to poison children and birds,
you can do that more cheaply yourself. If the goal is to have a better
lawn, you can do that for next to nothing, with nothing but grass seed
and intelligent mowing. Interested?

Nice advice, Doug. What do you do for a living?

Interesting question. Why do you ask?

Well you just broad painted an entire green industry (one that I'm in)
with one paint stroke.

Poison your children and birds?

Makes me wonder what -wonderful- thing you do all day. It obviously
doesn't involve growing grass.

"Doug Kanter" wrote:
Depends on your goal. If the point is to poison children and birds, you
can do that more cheaply yourself. If the goal is to have a better lawn,
you can do that for next to nothing, with nothing but grass seed and
intelligent mowing. Interested?

Yes sir Doug, I sure am. Please elaborate.

So far grass seed and mowing has given me weeks, fungus at least once a
year, and grubs. I'm interested in your suggestion, and how they will yield
a better lawn.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"JonHirschman" wrote in message
news:Dsyfe.4261$N_5.1671@trndny09...
I live in Northern NJ and am thinking about contracting with a lawn
service to take care of the fertilizer and other weed treatments?

I have about 1/3 acre of grass. Will the results be any better then what
I could accomplish myself?

Any recommondations.


Depends on your goal. If the point is to poison children and birds, you
can do that more cheaply yourself. If the goal is to have a better lawn,
you can do that for next to nothing, with nothing but grass seed and
intelligent mowing. Interested?

Where do you live?


"JonHirschman" wrote in message
news:KdUfe.9399$Ws6.1578@trndny07...
So far grass seed and mowing has given me weeks, fungus at least once a
year, and grubs. I'm interested in your suggestion, and how they will
yield a better lawn.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"JonHirschman" wrote in message
news:Dsyfe.4261$N_5.1671@trndny09...
I live in Northern NJ and am thinking about contracting with a lawn
service to take care of the fertilizer and other weed treatments?

I have about 1/3 acre of grass. Will the results be any better then
what I could accomplish myself?

Any recommondations.


Depends on your goal. If the point is to poison children and birds, you
can do that more cheaply yourself. If the goal is to have a better lawn,
you can do that for next to nothing, with nothing but grass seed and
intelligent mowing. Interested?

"Steveo" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"Steveo" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"JonHirschman" wrote in message
news:Dsyfe.4261$N_5.1671@trndny09...
I live in Northern NJ and am thinking about contracting with a lawn
service to take care of the fertilizer and other weed treatments?

I have about 1/3 acre of grass. Will the results be any better then
what I could accomplish myself?

Any recommondations.


Depends on your goal. If the point is to poison children and birds,
you can do that more cheaply yourself. If the goal is to have a better
lawn, you can do that for next to nothing, with nothing but grass seed
and intelligent mowing. Interested?

Nice advice, Doug. What do you do for a living?

Interesting question. Why do you ask?

Well you just broad painted an entire green industry (one that I'm in)
with one paint stroke.

Poison your children and birds?

Makes me wonder what -wonderful- thing you do all day. It obviously
doesn't involve growing grass.

For the moment, set aside the organic lawn care products I see advertised by
some companies and consider ONLY the Chem-Lawn variety. And, focus NOT on
fertilizers, but on bug and weed killers. With me so far? Now: Change my
mind about those things by pointing to ***independent and properly conducted
research*** which proves that those things are safe, both for contact (by
people & animals), ingestion (by animals), and runoff into groundwater.

I live in Northern NJ.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Where do you live?


"JonHirschman" wrote in message
news:KdUfe.9399$Ws6.1578@trndny07...
So far grass seed and mowing has given me weeks, fungus at least once a
year, and grubs. I'm interested in your suggestion, and how they will
yield a better lawn.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"JonHirschman" wrote in message
news:Dsyfe.4261$N_5.1671@trndny09...
I live in Northern NJ and am thinking about contracting with a lawn
service to take care of the fertilizer and other weed treatments?

I have about 1/3 acre of grass. Will the results be any better then
what I could accomplish myself?

Any recommondations.


Depends on your goal. If the point is to poison children and birds, you
can do that more cheaply yourself. If the goal is to have a better lawn,
you can do that for next to nothing, with nothing but grass seed and
intelligent mowing. Interested?

OK. FYI, read this first. You'll enjoy it. Another participant in this
thread will not. Oh well. The person you pay to apply lawn poisons may
actually believe they're safe, but that's only because the manufacturers are
such effective liars. Bottom line: They are not safe, and cannot be tested
in a way that's considered valid by any well-informed adult. Further, the
"inert ingredients" are anything but inert, but they are exempt from testing
regulations due to effective lobbying by the chemical industry.
http://www.beyondpesticides.org/lawn...ts&figures.htm

This google search will give you enough information to keep you awake
nights.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ts&btnG=Search


A healthy lawn will deal with almost anything except the worst of grub
attacks, and those can be dealt with without hiring a chemical thug.

1) Get a soil test. Do it yourself, in several different places. If you're
not confident about it, call your local cooperative extension. Some will do
it very cheaply. Here (Rochester), it was a dollar per sample last time I
checked. Your pH may be way out of whack, which not only contributes to
lousy growth in general, but can also relate to the fungus you mentioned.

2) The fungus: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing it appeared in
spring, especially if there had been snow cover for any length of time. It's
supposedly caused by leaving the grass too long at the last mowing of the
season (late autumn). Those are the ONLY mowings for which you should set
your mower very low.

3) Mowing: Beginning with the first mowing in spring and continuing until
the last couple, the mower should be set at its maximum height, and you
should leave the clippings in place, unless you've let the lawn grow to the
point where the mower's dropping huge clumps that you know are going to
smother what's underneath. You'll recognize what's too much of a clump, and
it should be a rare occurrence, unless your mower's not good at mulching.

4) Feeding: There are plenty of granular foods which contain no insect or
weed killers. Watch the weather and try to apply when it's going to rain.
Or, water it in yourself. Frankly, you don't need to feed as often as the
experts say, especially if you're leaving lawn clippings in place.

5) Grubs: As you visit garden centers, take note of who sells biological
controls, so when you need it (and you're panicking), you wont' have to
drive all over town looking for it. I haven't needed it in years, but when I
did, the bacteria was bacillus thuringensis, which you'll see abbreviated to
BT. These bacteria are also used to control various food crop bugs. The
particular species may change from time to time if grubs develop resistance.
You will NOT see immediate results from the bacterial controls. You may have
to wait until next season, but it WILL work.

6) Soil quality: If you dig down maybe 6", after a heavy rain or watering,
take a handful of soil and compress it. It should crumble as easily as cake.
If it's a bitch to dig into, it needs to either be amended with peat moss
(blended in, not just thrown on top), or perhaps aerated, a service you can
pay for. In other words, the problem could be that the soil itself is lousy
(add organic matter), or it's been compressed for some reason. After a few
years of healthy lawn growth, it will loosen up, but in order to get grass
growing on bare ground, you'll have to help it.

7) Learn to love burlap and bricks when seeding new areas. I've never used
that fluffy stuff that highway crews use to seed large areas. Maybe it
works. But, I've always good luck covering new seed with burlap and holding
it down with bricks. Keeps birds of eating the seed, and equally important,
it helps maintain moisture during germination, and keeps rain or your hose
sprayer from scattering the seed. That's important because the goal (however
unachievable) is to keep the area constantly moist, but not muddy. The
burlap's reusable, and bricks always come in handy for something, like
throwing at the Chem Lawn truck.

8) Water deeply, but don't obsess about it. The whole idea of grass is
silly. We push it to live in places it would not grow naturally. Where it
does grow naturally, it turns brown in the summer and greens up again in the
fall. We hack it off with mowers before it can go through its natural cycle,
and then wonder why it behaves stupidly. We grow varieties that looked so
beautiful to the British that they decided to bring the tradition here
hundreds of years ago. Great, except that their climate is somewhat cooler.
Anyway...water deeply, but don't expect constant green.

Above all, be patient. These are plants, not machines. It took me three
years to get my lawn in shape, after which it needed almost no care at all
for 20 years.

By the way, here's a link to your cooperative extension:
Main page: http://www.rce.rutgers.edu/
Home resources: http://www.rcre.rutgers.edu/garden/ (soil test link at the
bottom!)


"Jon Hirschman" wrote in message
news:BTlge.1477$Zb3.957@trndny08...
I live in Northern NJ.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Where do you live?


"JonHirschman" wrote in message
news:KdUfe.9399$Ws6.1578@trndny07...
So far grass seed and mowing has given me weeks, fungus at least once a
year, and grubs. I'm interested in your suggestion, and how they will
yield a better lawn.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"JonHirschman" wrote in message
news:Dsyfe.4261$N_5.1671@trndny09...
I live in Northern NJ and am thinking about contracting with a lawn
service to take care of the fertilizer and other weed treatments?

I have about 1/3 acre of grass. Will the results be any better then
what I could accomplish myself?

Any recommondations.


Depends on your goal. If the point is to poison children and birds, you
can do that more cheaply yourself. If the goal is to have a better
lawn, you can do that for next to nothing, with nothing but grass seed
and intelligent mowing. Interested?

" Bottom line: They are not safe, and cannot be tested in a way that's
considered valid by any well-informed adult."


I think that about says it all. It shows how unreasonable guys like
you are. No amount of testing, no data, nothing could ever convince
you that any pesticide is safe. You might be well informed, but
certainly you aren't rational.

And you conveniently focus on grubs and one type of spring fungus,
which you don't even identify, like they are the only insect or fungus
problems a lawn is likely to encounter. I guess we should just ignore
the dozens of other common ones and pretend they don't exist.

wrote in message
oups.com...
" Bottom line: They are not safe, and cannot be tested in a way that's
considered valid by any well-informed adult."


I think that about says it all. It shows how unreasonable guys like
you are. No amount of testing, no data, nothing could ever convince
you that any pesticide is safe. You might be well informed, but
certainly you aren't rational.

The only way to test whether a substance is safe to ingest is to (can you
guess?), INGEST IT. This is how new medicines are tested. You wouldn't want
your kids to take drugs that weren't properly tested. Why would you want
them rolling around on a lawn that was sprayed with stuff that cannot be
tested? In addition, if you stopped pretending to be unaware of the dangers
of the so-called "inert" ingredients, you'd admit that they're kept quiet
because many are already known to be dangerous.



And you conveniently focus on grubs and one type of spring fungus,
which you don't even identify, like they are the only insect or fungus
problems a lawn is likely to encounter. I guess we should just ignore
the dozens of other common ones and pretend they don't exist.


I'm not pretending they don't exist. I've never encountered them. Doesn't
matter. There's always a better way than poison to improve a lawn or a
garden. But, your industry thrives because people are too busy or lalzy to
research the dangers of what you sell, and they're too fixated on instant
gratification.

"The only way to test whether a substance is safe to ingest is to (can
you
guess?), INGEST IT. This is how new medicines are tested. "

Ever hear of lab tests using animals? You're probably against that
too. And if we follow your silly logic to it's logical conclusion,
then lots of things are suddenly on the banned list. Things like air
freshner, household cleaners, plastics, even the clothes your wear,
because no one has eaten them. LOL

wrote in message
ups.com...
"The only way to test whether a substance is safe to ingest is to (can
you
guess?), INGEST IT. This is how new medicines are tested. "

Ever hear of lab tests using animals? You're probably against that
too. And if we follow your silly logic to it's logical conclusion,
then lots of things are suddenly on the banned list. Things like air
freshner, household cleaners, plastics, even the clothes your wear,
because no one has eaten them. LOL


It might help to know how old you are. Part of your misunderstanding may
stem from having missed many years of chemical industry shenanigans.

Lab animal tests are not reliable, but chemical makers have great fun with
the idea, in two ways. If a regulatory agency like the EPA uses animals to
test a chemical and finds that it's harmful, the chemical industry responds
that you cannot extrapolate those test results to humans because we respond
to substances differently than some animals.

Paradoxically, the chemical industry will use animal tests to "prove" that
their products are safe. They want it both ways, demeaning the results of
tests when it's convenient, and worshipping the results when they feel like
it. This nonsense has been going on since the 1960s. The industry made it
more convenient for itself back then, by passing legislation (whose name I
forget, but can find out) which makes the "inert" ingredients exempt from
most tests. As I'm sure you know, many of those inert ingredients are known
to be harmful. Toluene, for example.

You point out that some household products can be harmful, and you're right.
So can table salt and toothpaste in sufficient quantities, and athletes
sometimes drop dead from drinking way too much water before an event. But
with pesticides and herbicides, you're dealing with a product that is almost
impossible to control. Thugs put little flags on the lawn warning people to
stay off of them for 24 or 48 hours, but it's already been shown that the
chemicals are still present on the surface. Nonsense.

To make matters worse, many lawn chemical thugs hire idiots to do the
application. My wife was fortunate enough to be home one day when a Chem
Lawn monkey was about to spray herbicide on the neighbor's lawn, adjacent to
our vegetable garden, with a strong wind blowing constantly toward the
garden. When she went out to stop him, he told her it was perfectly safe FOR
USE ON FOOD CROPS. Read that again.

In NY, the thugs are required to provide the exact names of the crap they're
applying, if ANYONE asks. We got the names, did a little research, and found
that they were NOT approved for use anywhere near food crops. The owner of
the local franchise lied to us when we called him about it. Based on this,
we went to our town justice and obtained an injunction against the company
and the neighbor, which prohibited them from applying any kind of chemical
on one side of their property. The injunction ordered the police to arrest
either party if the rule was violated.

So, don't tell me what you know unless you can provide proof from sources
completely independent of your industry.

Heh, chowder head. It's not "my industry", I have no connection to the
lawn care business. But neither I nor most the rest of the world
considers those who use pesticides to be thugs. It's just another
example of how extreme your silly ideas are and why no one takes guys
like you seriously. I don't advocate the over use of pesticides. But
properly used, they are reasonably safe.

"When she went out to stop him, he told her it was perfectly safe FOR
USE ON FOOD CROPS. Read that again. "

That could be true. Maybe you should find out what it was before
jumping to conclusions. Of course you don't care what the chemical is,
you know it's unsafe right? Sounds like you like to pay 3X for organic
produce too. Most people choose to buy the std produce, knowing that
it too is reasonably safe, except for extremists like you. If
agriculture went where you'd like to take it, we'd all be paying 3X for
food. That would divert money that could be well spent on healthcare,
or education where it would have certain benefit, and send it down an
environmental extremist's rat hole. Sounds like you're perfectly
willing to eliminate farm chemicals and watch millions in poor
countries starve to death.

So stop using home cleaning products, shampoo, sun screen and a
thousand other things too, cause they all have chemicals in them.
Then crawl back into your cave and leave the rest of us alone. Sorry,
gotta go now, I'm gonna go spray the weeds in my driveway!

wrote in message
oups.com...

Heh, chowder head. It's not "my industry", I have no connection to the
lawn care business. But neither I nor most the rest of the world
considers those who use pesticides to be thugs.

If you know the product is harmful and you sell it anyway, you are a thug.
If you don't know enough about what you're selling and it is, in fact,
harmful, you are doing business irresponsibly, and you are a thug. Only one
way out: If you believe in the safety of a product based only on what the
manufacturer tells you, you are an idiot, not a thug.


It's just another
example of how extreme your silly ideas are and why no one takes guys
like you seriously. I don't advocate the over use of pesticides. But
properly used, they are reasonably safe.

Who told you they were reasonably safe? You don't have the resources
available to determine that on your own.



"When she went out to stop him, he told her it was perfectly safe FOR
USE ON FOOD CROPS. Read that again. "

That could be true. Maybe you should find out what it was before
jumping to conclusions.

Due to the presence of 7' high corn and 6' high bean poles, it was obvious
that there was a food garden. It was also obvious that wind would carry the
spray right onto the garden, and that the moron did not realize this. There
was no time to do research, professor. It had to be stopped. And, as it
turned out, it was good he was stopped because what he was applying was NOT
safe for food crops. Only an idiot would've let him continue.

Get it now?


Of course you don't care what the chemical is,
you know it's unsafe right?

No, I don't assume everything is unsafe. I evaluate what's necessary to use,
and balance the risk. Lawn chemicals are unnecessary. They are intended
primarily for people who have unrealistic expectations. The primary market
is people too young or too intellectually lazy to have any awareness of the
known risks.

As far as the risk, I only trust sources independent of the people who make
or sell the chemicals. If you suspected there was a safety problem with your
car, you would be more likely to trust information from an independent
source than from the car maker. There's no reason to deal differently with
chemicals, unless your attitude is culturally or politically tainted, as
yours is.


Sounds like you like to pay 3X for organic
produce too.

If your grocery store charges 3X more for organic, you're being raped. Some
organic products will be that much higher, but based on my visit to the
store last week, carrots were about 20 cents more for a 3 lb bag, lettuce
was 2.09/lb for organic, 1.79 for regular. Bought the regular because there
was only one organic head left and it was the wrong kind. Oh yeah....I'll
buy regular produce. Farmers are much more likely to use chemicals correctly
than are homeowners or the Chem Lawn thugs.


Most people choose to buy the std produce, knowing that
it too is reasonably safe, except for extremists like you. If
agriculture went where you'd like to take it, we'd all be paying 3X for
food.

Who told you to say that? Farmers now use far less chemicals than many years
ago. The cost isn't so significant to them that it would jack up the price
of food as you say it will. The two largest contributors to agricultural
chemical pollution now are homeowners and golf courses. You really ought to
read more.


That would divert money that could be well spent on healthcare,
or education where it would have certain benefit, and send it down an
environmental extremist's rat hole. Sounds like you're perfectly
willing to eliminate farm chemicals and watch millions in poor
countries starve to death.

Chemical companies sell products to poor countries which have been
prohibited from use here, including DDT in some cases. That's a good reason
to put the brakes on those practices.

"carrots were about 20 cents more for a 3 lb bag"

Now you've really got me laughing. Twenty cents more for 3lbs of
organic carrots? Maybe if they're trying to get rid of them, but
certainly not typical.

"Oh yeah....I'll buy regular produce."

WHAT? Almost all of them have been treated with pesticides and/or
herbicides! So, now what is unacceptable for me to use to spray a few
weeds with is OK to spray a crop with and eat? See, this is a classic
example of whacko's. They come to some crazy justification in their
own minds, then rationalize their behavior. Some of the products
you're eating may have been sprayed with Roundup, just like I just used
on my driveway.

"The cost isn't so significant to them that it would jack up the price
of food as you say it will."

Yeah, right. I'd like to see you grow thousands of acres of soybeans
without using any chemicals. You're in the dream world. Without the
chemicals, a lot of people in the world would be paying 3X for food and
others would be starving. But I don't worry too much about that
happening, cause kooks like you won't ever be in control.


" Chemical companies sell products to poor countries which have been
prohibited from use here, including DDT in some cases. That's a good
reason
to put the brakes on those practices. "

So, I was right, you are willing to see people in poor countries starve
and die from malaria to support your extremist views. BTW, isn't it
time for you to go to a PETA meeting or Earth Liberation Front meeting?
You know those guys that like to destroy property, burn builidings and
businesses down, because the folks that have a different view are just
"thugs"?

wrote in message
ups.com...
"carrots were about 20 cents more for a 3 lb bag"

Now you've really got me laughing. Twenty cents more for 3lbs of
organic carrots? Maybe if they're trying to get rid of them, but
certainly not typical.

It's typical here. As I told you, if you're paying 3 times more for
***ALL*** organic produce, or even 2 times more, you're being raped. Your
store is charging you for the word "organic", as opposed to just passing
along its real cost. Let's not debate this further. I've been in the grocery
biz for 25 years. The margin between normal and organic produce has been
shrinking for quite some time, as organic farms build fertility levels
(which takes a few years) and decrease production costs to remain
competitive.


"Oh yeah....I'll buy regular produce."

WHAT? Almost all of them have been treated with pesticides and/or
herbicides! So, now what is unacceptable for me to use to spray a few
weeds with is OK to spray a crop with and eat? See, this is a classic
example of whacko's. They come to some crazy justification in their
own minds, then rationalize their behavior. Some of the products
you're eating may have been sprayed with Roundup, just like I just used
on my driveway.

If it's a choice between salad or no salad, and there is no organic lettuce,
I'll buy regular lettuce. Besides, I'm a gardener. I'm familiar with which
crops actually require more chemicals than others. Let's see where you are
on that spectrum. Which three COMMON produce items are most heavily treated?


"The cost isn't so significant to them that it would jack up the price
of food as you say it will."

Yeah, right. I'd like to see you grow thousands of acres of soybeans
without using any chemicals. You're in the dream world. Without the
chemicals, a lot of people in the world would be paying 3X for food and
others would be starving. But I don't worry too much about that
happening, cause kooks like you won't ever be in control.

What business are you in?




" Chemical companies sell products to poor countries which have been
prohibited from use here, including DDT in some cases. That's a good
reason
to put the brakes on those practices. "

So, I was right, you are willing to see people in poor countries starve
and die from malaria to support your extremist views. BTW, isn't it
time for you to go to a PETA meeting or Earth Liberation Front meeting?
You know those guys that like to destroy property, burn builidings and
businesses down, because the folks that have a different view are just
"thugs"?


You have quite a reading comprehension problem. How old are you?

"If it's a choice between salad or no salad, and there is no organic
lettuce,
I'll buy regular lettuce. "

I see, so it's OK to put chemicals on food that goes in your mouth,
it's just not ok for some of us to do it with lawns. Maybe that makes
sense to you, but not to me or most people.


"Besides, I'm a gardener. I'm familiar with which crops actually
require more chemicals than others. "

Wow, with credentials like that, why should anyone doubt that you know
how easy it is to commercially grow thousands of acres of wheat,
soybeans and corn without chemicals.


"What business are you in?"

That's none of your business


"How old are you? "

Old enough to know an environmental whacko when I see one.

wrote in message
oups.com...
"If it's a choice between salad or no salad, and there is no organic
lettuce,
I'll buy regular lettuce. "

I see, so it's OK to put chemicals on food that goes in your mouth,
it's just not ok for some of us to do it with lawns. Maybe that makes
sense to you, but not to me or most people.

Do you think they're the same chemicals?



"Besides, I'm a gardener. I'm familiar with which crops actually
require more chemicals than others. "

Wow, with credentials like that, why should anyone doubt that you know
how easy it is to commercially grow thousands of acres of wheat,
soybeans and corn without chemicals.

My credentials go further than yours. I actually read, and absorb what I've
read. If you wanted to know how commercial crops were managed, you could
find out. Or, I should say, a child could help you, if he or she had the
patience.



"What business are you in?"

That's none of your business


"How old are you? "

Old enough to know an environmental whacko when I see one.


As I said, you have a political and cultural agenda.

Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message


Old enough to know an environmental whacko when I see one.



As I said, you have a political and cultural agenda.



But no newsreader, common usenet etiquette, or the common sense to quote
in his replies...

I see, so it's OK to put chemicals on food that goes in your mouth,
it's just not ok for some of us to do it with lawns. Maybe that
makes
sense to you, but not to me or most people.

"Do you think they're the same chemicals?"

No, I don't think it, I know it to be true. There are some chemicals
that are used in both environments. Glyphosate (Roundup) is a good
example of one.


"As I said, you have a political and cultural agenda. "

That's real special coming from a guy who uses the word "thugs"
repeatedly to refer to lawn care professionals who use chemicals to
treat lawns. BTW, how did the PETA and ELF meetings go?

wrote in message
oups.com...
I see, so it's OK to put chemicals on food that goes in your mouth,
it's just not ok for some of us to do it with lawns. Maybe that
makes
sense to you, but not to me or most people.

"Do you think they're the same chemicals?"

No, I don't think it, I know it to be true. There are some chemicals
that are used in both environments. Glyphosate (Roundup) is a good
example of one.

Name 10 chemicals that are NOT used in both environments, and tell me where
you found out about them. You have until 6:30 AM Friday.



"As I said, you have a political and cultural agenda. "

That's real special coming from a guy who uses the word "thugs"
repeatedly to refer to lawn care professionals who use chemicals to
treat lawns. BTW, how did the PETA and ELF meetings go?


What's the deal here? Are you alienated from one of your children because
you like to go fishing? I have nothing to do with either of the
organizations you mentioned. Who told you to mention them? You certainly
didn't come up with them by yourself.

"Name 10 chemicals that are NOT used in both environments, and tell me
where
you found out about them. You have until 6:30 AM Friday."

Gee, I feel for you. You've gotten so confused, now you're arguing
with yourself. When I said you were irrational because you would eat
crops that were treated with chemicals, but think anyone who uses them
on lawns is a thug, you retorted with:

"Do you think they're the same chemicals?"

But now you say:

"Name 10 chemicals that are NOT used in both environments"

Try not to think about that reversal and contradiction. It could be
like matter meeting anti-matter. Your brain may explode or something.

"I have nothing to do with either of the
organizations you mentioned. Who told you to mention them? You
certainly
didn't come up with them by yourself."

And now we can add paranoia to the mix!

It's just another
example of how extreme your silly ideas are and why no one takes
guys
like you seriously. I don't advocate the over use of pesticides.
But
properly used, they are reasonably safe.

Who told you they were reasonably safe? You don't have the resources
available to determine that on your own.


Any decent veterinarian will explain to you how Scotts 4-step program,
especially "Step 2" is believed to be extremely bad for pets. I can't
remember the pathophysiology as it was explained to me, but if anyone
is interested I can find out.

Jo

"Any decent veterinarian will explain to you how Scotts 4-step program,

especially "Step 2" is believed to be extremely bad for pets. "

You mean like this vet from the Univ of Illinois, College of Veterinary
Medicince? Here's what he has to say:


"However, for pet owners who want to spruce up their yards and prefer
to use lawn care
products, reading the label and using the products properly is the key
to keeping pets safe.
According to Dr. Petra Volmer, veterinarian and toxicologist at the
University of Illinois
College of Veterinary Medicine in Urbana, problems usually arise only
when people apply
lawn care products incorrectly or when a pet is accidentally sprayed or
allowed on a freshly
sprayed lawn too soon.

Most lawn care products fall into three categories: fertilizers,
insecticides, and herbicides. "If
you use these products correctly and read the label, most really do not
cause a problem,"
says Dr. Volmer. "In general, most residential-use products have low
toxicity."


Or how about this from the good old ASPCA:

"4.What about pesticides and fertilizers that might be in the garage or
tool shed?

Make sure your pets do not go on lawns or in gardens treated with
fertilizers, herbicides or insecticides until the time listed on the
label by the manufacturer. If you are uncertain about the usage of any
product, contact the manufacturer for clarification before using it.
Always store pesticides, fertilizers and herbicides in areas that are
inaccessible to your pets.

The most serious problems resulting from fertilizer ingestion in pets
is usually due to the presence of heavy metals such as iron. Ingestion
of large amounts of fertilizer could cause severe gastric upset and
possibly gastrointestinal obstruction.

The most dangerous forms of pesticides include: snail bait containing
metaldehyde, fly bait containing methomyl, systemic insecticides
containing disyston or disulfaton, zinc phosphide containing mole or
gopher bait and most forms of rat poisons. When using pesticides place
the products in areas that are totally inaccessible to your companion
animals. Always store pesticides in secured areas."


Seems neither the veterinarian from the Univ of Illinois vet school,
nor the ASPCA think typical lawn products are "extremely bad" for your
pet. Now don't get me wrong. I try to limit how much
herbicide/pesticide I use for a number of reasons. And I make sure to
follow the label directions and keep pets off it for a reasonable
amount of time after application to minimize exposure. I exceed the
recommended minimum times to stay off. That makes sense. Alarmists
who think anyone who applies any chemical to a lawn is a "thug", in my
view, are just as whacko as people who use these products needlessly.

wrote in message
oups.com...
"Name 10 chemicals that are NOT used in both environments, and tell me
where
you found out about them. You have until 6:30 AM Friday."

Gee, I feel for you. You've gotten so confused, now you're arguing
with yourself. When I said you were irrational because you would eat
crops that were treated with chemicals, but think anyone who uses them
on lawns is a thug, you retorted with:

"Do you think they're the same chemicals?"

But now you say:

"Name 10 chemicals that are NOT used in both environments"

Try not to think about that reversal and contradiction. It could be
like matter meeting anti-matter. Your brain may explode or something.

"I have nothing to do with either of the
organizations you mentioned. Who told you to mention them? You
certainly
didn't come up with them by yourself."

And now we can add paranoia to the mix!


My chemical question, and my "who told you to say that" comment are
justified because I realized yesterday that I was dealing with a Limbaugh
clone. Most of them have been put back in storage since the election this
past November, but apparently, some remain activated, like you. If you think
about it, I'm doing you a favor. If I can help you break your link to the
mother ship, the resulting knowledge you gain may save your life someday.

So, about the 10 chemicals: You said some are used on both food and
ornamental crops. To test your knowledge, if any, I'm curious if you're
familiar with 10 which are NOT shared between the two industries. Then, in
lesson two, we'll discuss WHY they are not shared.

The PETA/fishing question: There has to be some reason you jumped to that
conclusion, so I took a shot and guessed that you've been attacked by
someone close to you, probably for an innocent activity like fishing. If
this is NOT the case, than you are simply spouting what you've been told to
by....whom? Rush? Savage?

"My chemical question, and my "who told you to say that" comment are
justified because I realized yesterday that I was dealing with a
Limbaugh
clone. Most of them have been put back in storage since the election
this
past November, but apparently, some remain activated, like you. If you
think
about it, I'm doing you a favor. If I can help you break your link to
the
mother ship, the resulting knowledge you gain may save your life
someday.

So, about the 10 chemicals: You said some are used on both food and
ornamental crops. To test your knowledge, if any, I'm curious if you're

familiar with 10 which are NOT shared between the two industries. Then,
in
lesson two, we'll discuss WHY they are not shared.

The PETA/fishing question: There has to be some reason you jumped to
that
conclusion, so I took a shot and guessed that you've been attacked by
someone close to you, probably for an innocent activity like fishing.
If
this is NOT the case, than you are simply spouting what you've been
told to
by....whom? Rush? Savage? "


Heh, Doug, this is a lawn/garden newsgroup. Don't try to turn it into
a political forum. One thing I like about clowns like you is your
condescending attitude, which is so easily exposed. You think
everyone who doesn't share your extremist views, is stupid, can't think
for themselves and that they must be getting told what to say. Like I
call up some national political commentator and ask "I'm arguing with
an idiot on a newsgroup, what should I say next?" LOL And I know
you'll say "My views aren't extreme!" I think most of us know that
anyone who routinely calls people who put chemicals on lawns "thugs",
is in fact an extremist. Once you see crap like that, it's easy to
figure out where you're coming from.

As for your test, we all know there are no right answers that would
satisfy you. You can't even figure out if some chemicals are used
both in the home environment and on food crops. First you were on one
side, then the other. Strange for a guy who eats vegetables treated
with chemicals, but won't spray a weed. And now you want ME to take a
test? ROFLMAO!

wrote in message
oups.com...


Heh, Doug, this is a lawn/garden newsgroup. Don't try to turn it into
a political forum.

It wasn't me who dragged extreme pseudo-environmental nonsense into this,
like PETA. That was YOUR contribution.

wrote in message
oups.com...
"Any decent veterinarian will explain to you how Scotts 4-step
program,

especially "Step 2" is believed to be extremely bad for pets. "

You mean like this vet from the Univ of Illinois, College of
Veterinary
Medicince? Here's what he has to say:


"However, for pet owners who want to spruce up their yards and
prefer
to use lawn care
products, reading the label and using the products properly is the
key
to keeping pets safe.
According to Dr. Petra Volmer, veterinarian and toxicologist at the
University of Illinois
College of Veterinary Medicine in Urbana, problems usually arise
only
when people apply
lawn care products incorrectly or when a pet is accidentally sprayed
or
allowed on a freshly
sprayed lawn too soon.

Most lawn care products fall into three categories: fertilizers,
insecticides, and herbicides. "If
you use these products correctly and read the label, most really do
not
cause a problem,"
says Dr. Volmer. "In general, most residential-use products have low
toxicity."


Or how about this from the good old ASPCA:

"4.What about pesticides and fertilizers that might be in the garage
or
tool shed?

Make sure your pets do not go on lawns or in gardens treated with
fertilizers, herbicides or insecticides until the time listed on the
label by the manufacturer. If you are uncertain about the usage of
any
product, contact the manufacturer for clarification before using it.
Always store pesticides, fertilizers and herbicides in areas that
are
inaccessible to your pets.

The most serious problems resulting from fertilizer ingestion in
pets
is usually due to the presence of heavy metals such as iron.
Ingestion
of large amounts of fertilizer could cause severe gastric upset and
possibly gastrointestinal obstruction.

The most dangerous forms of pesticides include: snail bait
containing
metaldehyde, fly bait containing methomyl, systemic insecticides
containing disyston or disulfaton, zinc phosphide containing mole or
gopher bait and most forms of rat poisons. When using pesticides
place
the products in areas that are totally inaccessible to your
companion
animals. Always store pesticides in secured areas."


Seems neither the veterinarian from the Univ of Illinois vet school,
nor the ASPCA think typical lawn products are "extremely bad" for
your
pet. Now don't get me wrong. I try to limit how much
herbicide/pesticide I use for a number of reasons. And I make sure
to
follow the label directions and keep pets off it for a reasonable
amount of time after application to minimize exposure. I exceed
the
recommended minimum times to stay off. That makes sense.
Alarmists
who think anyone who applies any chemical to a lawn is a "thug", in
my
view, are just as whacko as people who use these products
needlessly.

I guess we just disagree. The vets from Tufts Veterinary near Boston
are some of the tops in the country, and I trust them, as well as my
own personal vet (ha ha, no jokes please! :))
Personally, my dog likes to roll in and eat grass, and I would never
jeopardize his health. As a new homeowner, I don't feel it's ethical
or appropriate to load more neurotoxins and chemicals into our
environment. Researchers pretty much agree that as a society, one of
the primary reasons we are getting sicker with higher incidences and
prevalences of many disorders, diseases, and health problems is
because of all the toxic chemicals and pollutants in our environs. As
a person with a neurological disorder myself, I can tell a significant
difference in my health (medical, physical, and mental/cognitive) when
I am exposed to chemicals. I don't even use Lysol in the house! Sure,
my grass with it's organic treatment does not look nearly as nice as
my neighbors who use Scotts'/ChemLawn or other services, but I feel
good about it and what I am *not* putting into the air/water/ground,
etc. A dear old friend of mine was a Ph.D. chemist, and boy did he
have some horror stories about what is really in some common
household/garden products! Thanks, but no thanks! I am not completely
"green", but I try. PS- I never called anyone a thug, and don't
consider myself an 'alarmist'. And trust me you don't want a clinicial
definition of "Whacko!"

Jo

"Steveo" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Heh, Doug, this is a lawn/garden newsgroup. Don't try to turn it into
a political forum. One thing I like about clowns like you is your
condescending attitude, which is so easily exposed. You think
everyone who doesn't share your extremist views, is stupid, can't think
for themselves and that they must be getting told what to say.

He's only here to draw attention to himself, I'm done with him lameness.

Let him use seed and cutting only. :)

Whatsa matter, boy? Don't want to see the pictures of the lawn you say is
impossible? :-) Might make you think about a career change?

"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"Steveo" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Heh, Doug, this is a lawn/garden newsgroup. Don't try to turn it
into
a political forum. One thing I like about clowns like you is your
condescending attitude, which is so easily exposed. You think
everyone who doesn't share your extremist views, is stupid, can't
think for themselves and that they must be getting told what to say.

He's only here to draw attention to himself, I'm done with him
lameness.

Let him use seed and cutting only. :)

Whatsa matter, boy?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz shutup. hehe

"Steveo" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"Steveo" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Heh, Doug, this is a lawn/garden newsgroup. Don't try to turn it
into
a political forum. One thing I like about clowns like you is your
condescending attitude, which is so easily exposed. You think
everyone who doesn't share your extremist views, is stupid, can't
think for themselves and that they must be getting told what to say.

He's only here to draw attention to himself, I'm done with him
lameness.

Let him use seed and cutting only. :)

Whatsa matter, boy?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz shutup. hehe

Jeez...you just turned down the best 5 minute education you'll ever run
across. Talk about ignorant.....

"Doug Kanter" wrote:
Jeez...you just turned down the best 5 minute education you'll ever run
across.

No, I'm here to answer real life lawncare questions. Cool season is my
specialty. You are only here to troll your stink bait, and I ain't
interested.

Talk about ignorant.....

**** off. -buh-bye-

"Steveo" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
Jeez...you just turned down the best 5 minute education you'll ever run
across.

No, I'm here to answer real life lawncare questions. Cool season is my
specialty. You are only here to troll your stink bait, and I ain't
interested.

Talk about ignorant.....

**** off. -buh-bye-

What a zero! You're here in this newsgroup, supposedly to offer advice, but
you don't know how to grow a lawn without chemicals? What the ****? You need
to get out of that six buck an hour job of yours, handling someone else's
hose.

You know Dougie boy, instead of hurling BS, since you're so
anti-chemical, why don't you tell people what exactly they have to do
to grow and maintain a lawn using only organic methods. In a previous
thread, you claimed all that was needed was seed and water. Is that
it? Why then are people using things like corn gluten meal as an
organic pre-emergent, at $50 for a bag that might cover 2500 sq ft?
That's about 10X the cost of a product like Scotts. Oh, wait, the
Scotts also has a lot more fertilizer with it, so it's even worse than
that! Or should they just skip the pre-emergent and get down on their
hands and knees and dig out the weeds? Ever try that on a 1/2 acre?