Control Heating Costs This Winter?
 

Hi All,
I'm sure you've all heard and dreaded the predictions about heating
costs this winter. This will be only my second year with my gh up and
running. I would love to hear ideas for how some of you have been able
to keep those costs as low as possible without harming your orchids
(too cold, too little light, etc.)

I have quite a variety of 'chids in my gh. The majority are
intermediates, but I also have some intermed.-warm types and some
cool-intermed. types. Last winter I set the thermostat to a min. of 55
F. This year I am considering dropping it to 50 F. I use a Southern
Burner natural gas, vented model. My gh is 15' x 16' and about 10' high
at the roof line. While I am in a relatively mild climate to many of
you (Central California Coastal area), it can get down in to the low
30's F at night. An occasional dip in the high 20's F.

What about insulation (without sacrificing too much light)? Fan
positioning? Fans on, or fans off? Heat curtains? Shade cloth on the
inside?

Thanks in advance....

Lori

1) Fans on - always. No exception.
2) Make sure every little seam is well sealed.
3) Set the thermostat for the minimum temperature your plants can live
with.
4) Do NOT artificially heat the GH on gray days. Let solar heating do the
work when it can.
5) Add sheets of polyethylene film and inflate the space between the film
and your GH cover.
6) Paint the north wall of the GH white to reflect as much light as
possible into the structure.
7) Keep as much water in black containers as possible in the GH. They will
absorb solar heat and re-emit it into the environment.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"angraecum_habit" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi All,
I'm sure you've all heard and dreaded the predictions about heating
costs this winter. This will be only my second year with my gh up and
running. I would love to hear ideas for how some of you have been able
to keep those costs as low as possible without harming your orchids
(too cold, too little light, etc.)

I have quite a variety of 'chids in my gh. The majority are
intermediates, but I also have some intermed.-warm types and some
cool-intermed. types. Last winter I set the thermostat to a min. of 55
F. This year I am considering dropping it to 50 F. I use a Southern
Burner natural gas, vented model. My gh is 15' x 16' and about 10' high
at the roof line. While I am in a relatively mild climate to many of
you (Central California Coastal area), it can get down in to the low
30's F at night. An occasional dip in the high 20's F.

What about insulation (without sacrificing too much light)? Fan
positioning? Fans on, or fans off? Heat curtains? Shade cloth on the
inside?

Thanks in advance....

Lori

Hmm, just a thought, but is it possible to fabricate some type of heavily
insulated blanket that can be easily thrown over the greenhouse at night.


"angraecum_habit" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi All,
I'm sure you've all heard and dreaded the predictions about heating
costs this winter. This will be only my second year with my gh up and
running. I would love to hear ideas for how some of you have been able
to keep those costs as low as possible without harming your orchids
(too cold, too little light, etc.)

I have quite a variety of 'chids in my gh. The majority are
intermediates, but I also have some intermed.-warm types and some
cool-intermed. types. Last winter I set the thermostat to a min. of 55
F. This year I am considering dropping it to 50 F. I use a Southern
Burner natural gas, vented model. My gh is 15' x 16' and about 10' high
at the roof line. While I am in a relatively mild climate to many of
you (Central California Coastal area), it can get down in to the low
30's F at night. An occasional dip in the high 20's F.

What about insulation (without sacrificing too much light)? Fan
positioning? Fans on, or fans off? Heat curtains? Shade cloth on the
inside?

Thanks in advance....

Lori

Bryan wrote:
Hmm, just a thought, but is it possible to fabricate some type of heavily
insulated blanket that can be easily thrown over the greenhouse at night.

Yes, it is possible with a smaller structure. It becomes increasingly
difficult with a bigger structure. It takes me two people and half an
hour to get the shade cloth on my greenhouse, another half hour to fold
it up, and I really don't want to do that every night. If you want to
go that route, try it a few times with a plastic tarp or shadecloth, to
get an idea of how much effort it will really take, and if you are
willing to spend that kind of time.

I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an
excellent idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for
simplicity I've just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them
under the benches. With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or
(around here at least) I've seen them in the recycling center in
thousand quantites, waiting to be melted, they don't mind if you recycle
a few hundred yourself. In small units of a gallon, the water is easy
to carry, and you can move the milk jugs (or throw them away) if you end
up needing the space that they are in. If algae or other stuff grows in
the jugs, more the merrier. They will absorb heat better...

For our way up north people (like me), I also suggest covering vents
with styrofoam board. Only if the vents aren't going to open, of course
(I have two sets, and cover one set). Get some weather-stripping for
your greenhouse door, if it opens to the outside. If your walls are
rigid plastic or glass, get some bales of straw and stack them two high
around the perimeter of your greenhouse after the first week of hard
frost. Higher on the north wall (three or four bales high). Any
earlier and the mice and other rodents haven't found their winter homes
yet. If your greenhouse is soft poly, like mine, then the straw is
probably a RBI (really bad idea), due to rodent issues. You can recycle
the straw as garden mulch in the spring, and straw is cheap.

Rabbits... No, I'm serious. Or chickens. Both give off a lot of
heat. Of course they would have to be in cages, under the benches. I
might try rabbit heat someday when my daughter is old enough to
appreciate the rabbits. I used to raise rabbits as a kid.

Remember to consider how expensive your improvements will be, and
justify that by how expensive your heat is. A one dollar piece of
styrofoam that saves you 20 dollars of fuel is an excellent investment.
A two dollar bale of straw (that you can reuse as mulch) that saves
you even two or three dollars of fuel is an excellent investment. A
high capacity active solar heating system that costs you 10,000 dollars
might save you 500 dollars a year in fuel... That might not be such a
good investment (but it would be a neat thing, indeed).

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:20:09 -0400 in Rob wrote:

I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an
excellent idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for
simplicity I've just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them
under the benches. With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or
(around here at least) I've seen them in the recycling center in
thousand quantites, waiting to be melted, they don't mind if you recycle
a few hundred yourself. In small units of a gallon, the water is easy
to carry, and you can move the milk jugs (or throw them away) if you end
up needing the space that they are in. If algae or other stuff grows in
the jugs, more the merrier. They will absorb heat better...

I've heard, granted mostly from the person that came up with the following
idea, that water and other normal thermal masses aren't very effective
in a green house environment.

With that said, has anyone here tried sunny john's subterranean heating
and cooling system for a greenhouse with orchids?
http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/...reenhouses.htm

I may be setting one up for someone that needs to propagate grapes,
and will collect environmental data to see if it's compatible with
anything I grow.

But if someone else has done it, it'll save me a lot of trouble :-).


--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil

? wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:20:09 -0400 in Rob wrote:

I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an
excellent idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for
simplicity I've just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them
under the benches. With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or
(around here at least) I've seen them in the recycling center in
thousand quantites, waiting to be melted, they don't mind if you recycle
a few hundred yourself. In small units of a gallon, the water is easy
to carry, and you can move the milk jugs (or throw them away) if you end
up needing the space that they are in. If algae or other stuff grows in
the jugs, more the merrier. They will absorb heat better...


I've heard, granted mostly from the person that came up with the following
idea, that water and other normal thermal masses aren't very effective
in a green house environment.

With that said, has anyone here tried sunny john's subterranean heating
and cooling system for a greenhouse with orchids?
http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/...reenhouses.htm

I may be setting one up for someone that needs to propagate grapes,
and will collect environmental data to see if it's compatible with
anything I grow.

But if someone else has done it, it'll save me a lot of trouble :-).



I haven't looked at the link about subterrenean heating yet, but figured
I'd add my 2 cents about water. Ray is the only person I know who has
used water to good effect in his GH. People here (Bay Area California)
don't really swear by it. That said nevertheless however I'm going to
try it anyway, because the science behind it seems strong and let's face
it we gotta do something.

K Barrett

I've heard, granted mostly from the person that came up with the following
idea, that water and other normal thermal masses aren't very effective
in a green house environment.

With that said, has anyone here tried sunny john's subterranean heating
and cooling system for a greenhouse with orchids?
http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/...reenhouses.htm

I may be setting one up for someone that needs to propagate grapes,
and will collect environmental data to see if it's compatible with
anything I grow.

But if someone else has done it, it'll save me a lot of trouble :-).



Depends on what you mean by effective. You need to have an active
component to a solar hot water system to get real efficiency. Pumps,
heat exchangers... Passive heat transfer is slow. So you will never
be able to rely on jugs or barrels of water for your primary heating.
At least in a tropical greenhouse. It is possible to design such a
system, but it is fairly expensive (I consulted an engineer about the
possibility, and decided on waiting for a while...).

But, the upside to the slow heat transfer is just that, slow heat
transfer. If you have enough water mass in a structure, it will absorb
heat relatively quickly (slow from the air, but direct sunlight will
heat more quickly), and release heat slowly. This has pretty much the
same effect as a chemical buffer. It will take more heat to raise the
temperature of the greenouse, and more cold (technically more 'absence
of heat') to lower it.

Putting in a dark colored rock floor (slate is good) is another way to
capture heat and release it slowly. Of course in that case it helps to
have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise
most of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new
greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a layer
of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor. Regardless
of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that.

Practically, the air in the greenhouse will warm up much faster than the
water in the greenhouse, which makes relying on water to keep your
greenhouse cool suicide. You need vents for sunny days. And similarly,
relying on water to keep your greenhouse tropical requires a furnace of
some sort. But, water mass provides moderation, and you will require
less heat to warm the air to the right temperature, and less 'coolth' to
get it down. And if you have enough water mass in your greenhouse, if
the furnace goes out on a cold evening your greenhouse might not freeze,
or at least not freeze as fast. It might get darn cold... but warmer
than the surrounding air. Think of it as insulation you install on the
inside of the greenhouse. It won't do the job by itself, but the more
you have the better.

Of course that is just my opinion... To me, water is cheap and easy,
and helps me sleep at night.

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

I've seen a product called "winterizing cloth" (or something to that effect)
advertised in Orchids Magazine. It's a light foamy material, that you put
right over the plants on the benches ... Kenni

"Bryan" wrote in message
news:kjL0f.87971$oW2.22833@pd7tw1no...
Hmm, just a thought, but is it possible to fabricate some type of heavily
insulated blanket that can be easily thrown over the greenhouse at night.


"angraecum_habit" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi All,
I'm sure you've all heard and dreaded the predictions about heating
costs this winter. This will be only my second year with my gh up and
running. I would love to hear ideas for how some of you have been able
to keep those costs as low as possible without harming your orchids
(too cold, too little light, etc.)

I have quite a variety of 'chids in my gh. The majority are
intermediates, but I also have some intermed.-warm types and some
cool-intermed. types. Last winter I set the thermostat to a min. of 55
F. This year I am considering dropping it to 50 F. I use a Southern
Burner natural gas, vented model. My gh is 15' x 16' and about 10' high
at the roof line. While I am in a relatively mild climate to many of
you (Central California Coastal area), it can get down in to the low
30's F at night. An occasional dip in the high 20's F.

What about insulation (without sacrificing too much light)? Fan
positioning? Fans on, or fans off? Heat curtains? Shade cloth on the
inside?

Thanks in advance....

Lori

"Rob" wrote in message
...

I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an excellent
idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for simplicity I've
just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them under the benches.
With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or (around here at least) I've
seen them in the recycling center in thousand quantites, waiting to be
melted, they don't mind if you recycle a few hundred yourself. In small
units of a gallon, the water is easy to carry, and you can move the milk
jugs (or throw them away) if you end up needing the space that they are
in. If algae or other stuff grows in the jugs, more the merrier. They
will absorb heat better...

An excellent idea, but likely most effective if the containers are painted
flat black, not glossy. Remember, if something looks bright, it is because
most of the light hitting it is reflected. If the object looks dark, it is
because most of the light hitting it is absorbed.

For our way up north people (like me), I also suggest covering vents with
styrofoam board. Only if the vents aren't going to open, of course (I
have two sets, and cover one set). Get some weather-stripping for your
greenhouse door, if it opens to the outside. If your walls are rigid
plastic or glass, get some bales of straw and stack them two high around
the perimeter of your greenhouse after the first week of hard frost.
Higher on the north wall (three or four bales high). Any earlier and the
mice and other rodents haven't found their winter homes yet. If your
greenhouse is soft poly, like mine, then the straw is probably a RBI
(really bad idea), due to rodent issues. You can recycle the straw as
garden mulch in the spring, and straw is cheap.


I am up about as far north as you are, I think. There is a grower here who
told me on the weekend that during the winter, day time temperatures inside
his greenhouse can reach clost to 30 degrees Celcius (for our american
friends, that is about 80 degrees F), while the outside temperature was
about -20 degrees Celcius. He was amazed that he could see a 50 degree
Celcius difference between the temperature inside the greenhouse and that
outside. But I know he takes great care in the construction and operation
of his greenhouse since he produces top quality plants, and has his humidity
up high enough that he can usually revive plants his friends thought they'd
killed. He reports that once the sun goes down, his heaters begin to run
non-stop. I have not checked to see if he uses any of the passive heating
options available.

The calculation of how much passive heating is needed (defined in terms of
water volume) is simple, once one has data on the rate of heat loss through
the greenhouse roof and walls and the specific heat capacity of air and
water (IIRC, for water it is 1 Cal/g - I have no idea what it is for air).

Rabbits... No, I'm serious. Or chickens. Both give off a lot of heat.
Of course they would have to be in cages, under the benches. I might try
rabbit heat someday when my daughter is old enough to appreciate the
rabbits. I used to raise rabbits as a kid.

Apart from heating the greenhouse, the best part of this idea is that both
are both nutritious and delicious when roasted, and then served with baked
potatoes, corn, asparagus, &c.

Cheers,

Ted


--
R.E. (Ted) Byers, Ph.D., Ed.D.
R & D Decision Support Solutions
http://www.randddecisionsupportsolutions.com/
Healthy Living Through Informed Decision Making

Rabbits... No, I'm serious. Or chickens. Both give off a lot of heat.
Of course they would have to be in cages, under the benches. I might try
rabbit heat someday when my daughter is old enough to appreciate the
rabbits. I used to raise rabbits as a kid.


Apart from heating the greenhouse, the best part of this idea is that both
are both nutritious and delicious when roasted, and then served with baked
potatoes, corn, asparagus, &c.

Cheers,

Garnished with a dendrobium flower, of course. I'm all for multitasking...


--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

Try clear plastic bulb wrap, placed inside the glass and taped around.
Great insulation, allows light to pass through and captures heat
Reusable next winter.
For heat one novel idea is composting, done right you can have no
smells, no insects (can use worms), and can generate heat. I saw it
done once in a green house, but it is probably on pratical for only a
few people.

We actually have chickens, and my husband wants to have rabbits, too. But
we haven't had the heart to house them under the benches where they'd get
drenched every time we water ... Kenni

"Rob" wrote in message
...

Rabbits... No, I'm serious. Or chickens. Both give off a lot of heat.
Of course they would have to be in cages, under the benches. I might try
rabbit heat someday when my daughter is old enough to appreciate the
rabbits. I used to raise rabbits as a kid.


Apart from heating the greenhouse, the best part of this idea is that
both are both nutritious and delicious when roasted, and then served with
baked potatoes, corn, asparagus, &c.

Cheers,

Garnished with a dendrobium flower, of course. I'm all for
multitasking...


--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

"Kenni Judd" wrote in message
...
We actually have chickens, and my husband wants to have rabbits, too. But
we haven't had the heart to house them under the benches where they'd get
drenched every time we water ... Kenni

Hey, that is easy to fix. Just place a sheet of plastic over the rabbits'
cages. That would shelter them from the water you're using. A more
difficult problem would be kids who get too attached to the cute little
bunnies to allow them to be used for food and for their fur. I'd probably
just avoid the issue until the kids are old enough to understand.

Cheers,

Ted


--
R.E. (Ted) Byers, Ph.D., Ed.D.
R & D Decision Support Solutions
http://www.randddecisionsupportsolutions.com/
Healthy Living Through Informed Decision Making

Rob wrote:
Of course in that case it helps to
have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise
most of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new
greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a layer
of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor. Regardless
of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that.


If I can ever get the morons at the building permit to pull their
heads out of their...um...well, you know...I am planning on putting the
styro around the foundation up top glazing level, about 4" above ground.
At that point, I think insulation under the floor might be a bad
idea...at least with the insulated foundation down past the permafrost
line, the ground beneath should be at about 50 degrees, right? Or at
least substantially warmer than the outside air. This should help with
the heating, n'est-ce pas? What do you think Rob?

The latest form the building code folks (who have never heard of
polycarb as a building material - how long's it been around? 30 yrs? 40?
- and can't get their stories straight from one person to the next, or
even from one phone call to the next)is that I can't have a gravel floor
in the attached GH as they are concerned about the moisture rising out
of the ground through a gravel floor and causing mold in the house -
despite the fact that it will still have its external coverings intact.
Had planned a moisture barrier on the house wall but was told not to
bother. Of course the ambient humidity in the GH in the summer will
probably be in the 90% or higher range. Just like the normal outside
humidity here.

And I can't have it but half the size I need because of some ratio about
open back yard space being at least 25% of the total lot size. So if you
have a 40-acre lot, and the house sits so you only have 10 acres behind
it, you can't build a 20 foot greenhouse??????????? Stupid or what? I
don't have a huge lot but the lot behind me is barely bigger than my
current back yard. Go figure.

So I have to apply for a variance (more money) and of course it takes
2-3 months for a hearing. So that means I just MIGHT get to start
building in late Dec/Jan. Oops! The ground'll be frozen then!

Wish I lived in a free country instead of a one resembling the communist
USSR. Seems in a country founded on property rights and liberty (not
'family values' [Whose family values? Mine? Yours?] as some say) we have
neither now.

Please pardon the rant, but the whole process has been very frustrating.

Your first mistake, Tennis, was applying for a permit...

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"tennis maynard" wrote in message
. ..
Rob wrote:
Of course in that case it helps to
have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise most
of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new
greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a layer
of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor. Regardless
of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that.


If I can ever get the morons at the building permit to pull their
heads out of their...um...well, you know...I am planning on putting the
styro around the foundation up top glazing level, about 4" above ground.
At that point, I think insulation under the floor might be a bad idea...at
least with the insulated foundation down past the permafrost
line, the ground beneath should be at about 50 degrees, right? Or at least
substantially warmer than the outside air. This should help with the
heating, n'est-ce pas? What do you think Rob?

The latest form the building code folks (who have never heard of polycarb
as a building material - how long's it been around? 30 yrs? 40? - and
can't get their stories straight from one person to the next, or even from
one phone call to the next)is that I can't have a gravel floor in the
attached GH as they are concerned about the moisture rising out of the
ground through a gravel floor and causing mold in the house - despite the
fact that it will still have its external coverings intact. Had planned a
moisture barrier on the house wall but was told not to bother. Of course
the ambient humidity in the GH in the summer will probably be in the 90%
or higher range. Just like the normal outside humidity here.

And I can't have it but half the size I need because of some ratio about
open back yard space being at least 25% of the total lot size. So if you
have a 40-acre lot, and the house sits so you only have 10 acres behind
it, you can't build a 20 foot greenhouse??????????? Stupid or what? I
don't have a huge lot but the lot behind me is barely bigger than my
current back yard. Go figure.

So I have to apply for a variance (more money) and of course it takes 2-3
months for a hearing. So that means I just MIGHT get to start building in
late Dec/Jan. Oops! The ground'll be frozen then!

Wish I lived in a free country instead of a one resembling the communist
USSR. Seems in a country founded on property rights and liberty (not
'family values' [Whose family values? Mine? Yours?] as some say) we have
neither now.

Please pardon the rant, but the whole process has been very frustrating.

That was a pretty mild rant considering it is a zoning board that you are
dealing with. You can get a gun with 24 hours notice.
"tennis maynard" wrote in message
. ..
Rob wrote:
Of course in that case it helps to
have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise most
of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new
greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a layer
of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor. Regardless
of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that.


If I can ever get the morons at the building permit to pull their
heads out of their...um...well, you know...I am planning on putting the
styro around the foundation up top glazing level, about 4" above ground.
At that point, I think insulation under the floor might be a bad idea...at
least with the insulated foundation down past the permafrost
line, the ground beneath should be at about 50 degrees, right? Or at least
substantially warmer than the outside air. This should help with the
heating, n'est-ce pas? What do you think Rob?

The latest form the building code folks (who have never heard of polycarb
as a building material - how long's it been around? 30 yrs? 40? - and
can't get their stories straight from one person to the next, or even from
one phone call to the next)is that I can't have a gravel floor in the
attached GH as they are concerned about the moisture rising out of the
ground through a gravel floor and causing mold in the house - despite the
fact that it will still have its external coverings intact. Had planned a
moisture barrier on the house wall but was told not to bother. Of course
the ambient humidity in the GH in the summer will probably be in the 90%
or higher range. Just like the normal outside humidity here.

And I can't have it but half the size I need because of some ratio about
open back yard space being at least 25% of the total lot size. So if you
have a 40-acre lot, and the house sits so you only have 10 acres behind
it, you can't build a 20 foot greenhouse??????????? Stupid or what? I
don't have a huge lot but the lot behind me is barely bigger than my
current back yard. Go figure.

So I have to apply for a variance (more money) and of course it takes 2-3
months for a hearing. So that means I just MIGHT get to start building in
late Dec/Jan. Oops! The ground'll be frozen then!

Wish I lived in a free country instead of a one resembling the communist
USSR. Seems in a country founded on property rights and liberty (not
'family values' [Whose family values? Mine? Yours?] as some say) we have
neither now.

Please pardon the rant, but the whole process has been very frustrating.

"Al" wrote in message
...
That was a pretty mild rant considering it is a zoning board that you are
dealing with. You can get a gun with 24 hours notice.

Now, although that may be gratifying, it isn't good. ;-)

Just think how boring life would be without all these little challenges that
come our way. ;-)

While we'd like to carry on toward our objectives without these little
challenges, we can use them to our advantage. Don't we tell young athletes
to grin and bear the aches and pains they get as a result of their extreme
physical activity since that builds character? That is, in fact, ancient
wisdom, and can be found, for example, in the Bible: trouble builds
endurance which builds character ... .

We all know what government is like, with civil servants who are usually
neither. Government does things on the cheap, so is rarely willing to pay
for adequately qualified personelle. Instead they go for the least
expensive personelle they can get away with.

Don't get mad at the people you're dealing with. Have pity on them, for
they're trying to do work they may not be adequately qualified to do, and
compensate for their lack of knowledge with a tyranical attitude. Doing
this, you won't have much effect on them, but you will reduce your own
stress levels and perhaps prevent yourself from getting an ulcer or
suffering some other stress related disease.

Cheers,

Ted

tennis maynard wrote:
Rob wrote:
Of course in that case it helps to

have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise
most of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new
greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a
layer of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor.
Regardless of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that.


If I can ever get the morons at the building permit to pull their
heads out of their...um...well, you know...I am planning on putting the
styro around the foundation up top glazing level, about 4" above ground.
At that point, I think insulation under the floor might be a bad
idea...at least with the insulated foundation down past the permafrost
line, the ground beneath should be at about 50 degrees, right? Or at
least substantially warmer than the outside air. This should help with
the heating, n'est-ce pas? What do you think Rob?


I feel your pain Tennis. And I won't say "I told you so", although I
seem to recall that I did... *grin* After my run-in with the building
police, I've decided that it is far easier to beg forgiveness than ask
permission. At least for a greenhouse.

As to 50 degree earth. That is great if you are heating your greenhouse
to 50 degrees. Chances are good you will want it a bit warmer than
that. I've been reading a lot of underground house books (I want one!),
and it seems counterintuitive, but you still want to insulate your
floors. If your greenhouse is 65 degrees, and your floor is 50, you are
still going to lose heat (fairly quickly) to the large mass of the
earth. Insulation slows the process of heat transfer, and allows you to
keep your higher temperature longer.

At this point you are saying "Whah? Huh? Why use earth at all and bury
part or all of your house?". Well, remember, when the earth is 50
degrees, the air might be 100 or -30. It takes a lot less fuel to
maintain a 15 degree temperature differential than a 95 degree one.
That is why thermal mass is so important... The insulation slows down
heat transfer, and the thermal mass of the earth reduces the temperature
differential.

I think that the logic behind homes and greenhouses is slightly
different, however. Obviously we want as much sunlight as possible in a
greenhouse, and that really messes with a solar house (where you collect
as much light in the winter as possible, and exclude it in the summer).
So while the concept works in the winter, insulate the foundation so
we don't lose heat, it really fails in the summer. We want the
foundation cold, ice wouldn't be too cold in August... But, vents are
much cheaper to operate than furnaces, and a wet-wall or other cooling
system probably is too. Failing that and if you want to dig deep holes,
you could have your replacement air come through buried pipes. Hot air
leaves through the vents, cool air comes in through the buried pipes.
Cheap to operate, a bit more expensive to install.

And as a final thought (hah!) on the subject... All of this is great to
think about for a hobby greenhouse. We can spend a little more to build
a neat energy efficient design. And we might rationalize our extra
expense by thinking that we will keep that greenhouse for 20 or 30 years
and it will pay for itself eventually. It is substantially more
difficult to justify the extra upfront costs in a commercial greenhouse.
It can be done, and probably should be done, but just like government
work, the contract often goes to the low bidder.

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

Yes, I suppose. I just meant a gun is easier to get than almost anything
that requires a zoning board's approval. Fill out a form. Claim to be
emotional stable. Wait 24 hours and with one, you can do to property values
all the damage the zoning board is trying to prevent.

"Al" wrote in message
...
That was a pretty mild rant considering it is a zoning board that you are
dealing with. You can get a gun with 24 hours notice.
"tennis maynard" wrote in message
. ..
Rob wrote:
Of course in that case it helps to
have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise
most of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new
greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a layer
of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor. Regardless
of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that.


If I can ever get the morons at the building permit to pull their
heads out of their...um...well, you know...I am planning on putting the
styro around the foundation up top glazing level, about 4" above ground.
At that point, I think insulation under the floor might be a bad
idea...at least with the insulated foundation down past the permafrost
line, the ground beneath should be at about 50 degrees, right? Or at
least substantially warmer than the outside air. This should help with
the heating, n'est-ce pas? What do you think Rob?

The latest form the building code folks (who have never heard of polycarb
as a building material - how long's it been around? 30 yrs? 40? - and
can't get their stories straight from one person to the next, or even
from one phone call to the next)is that I can't have a gravel floor in
the attached GH as they are concerned about the moisture rising out of
the ground through a gravel floor and causing mold in the house - despite
the fact that it will still have its external coverings intact. Had
planned a moisture barrier on the house wall but was told not to bother.
Of course the ambient humidity in the GH in the summer will probably be
in the 90% or higher range. Just like the normal outside humidity here.

And I can't have it but half the size I need because of some ratio about
open back yard space being at least 25% of the total lot size. So if you
have a 40-acre lot, and the house sits so you only have 10 acres behind
it, you can't build a 20 foot greenhouse??????????? Stupid or what? I
don't have a huge lot but the lot behind me is barely bigger than my
current back yard. Go figure.

So I have to apply for a variance (more money) and of course it takes 2-3
months for a hearing. So that means I just MIGHT get to start building in
late Dec/Jan. Oops! The ground'll be frozen then!

Wish I lived in a free country instead of a one resembling the communist
USSR. Seems in a country founded on property rights and liberty (not
'family values' [Whose family values? Mine? Yours?] as some say) we have
neither now.

Please pardon the rant, but the whole process has been very frustrating.

Al wrote:
That was a pretty mild rant considering it is a zoning board that you are
dealing with. You can get a gun with 24 hours notice.

Finally a helpful suggestion!

Al wrote:
Yes, I suppose. I just meant a gun is easier to get than almost anything
that requires a zoning board's approval. Fill out a form. Claim to be
emotional stable.

Uh, you may not know this never having met me in person, but that last
one might be a tough sell...

Rob wrote:
I've decided that it is far easier to beg forgiveness than ask
permission. At least for a greenhouse.

Uh, let's see, if I'm caught...triple fee..that's $750 instead of $250,
plus the variance request, now $780 instead of $260, and then if they
don't approve the variance, having to tear it down. Additionally the
permitting and inspecting for the water, gas, and electric that would be
done AFTER a permit. But if no permit, and I get caught, that's another
$900 plus any additional work that needs doing.

As to 50 degree earth. That is great if you are heating your greenhouse
to 50 degrees. Chances are good you will want it a bit warmer than
that.

Actually, 50' was my goal. I think that's warm enough for everything
including vandas, phals, and bulbos. You don't think so? I leave them
out til the temp hits that mark and they seem fine.

Tennis - whose roommate hit the roof at the mention of no greenhouse til
Spring. 'Where is all this s**t going?' (additional 50 square feet of
plants acquired this year, two evaporative coolers, vents, etc, etc...
We don't have a garage and the storage room (oops! growroom) is busy,
the other is full of pots and potting supplies...'I want these plants out!!'

Welcome to the club Tennis.
The building code folks don't seem to have any idea about energy
management. or they have an invested interest in the energy suppliers.
A local builder here tried to get a permit for a $250,000 earth sheltered
home but the building code folks called it a basement and code clearly says
you cant occupy a basement. You should see the tizzy that a geodesic dome
puts the building code folks in. Solar heat, forget it here, it is an
eyesore to the building code folks and is not allowed. God forbid if you
try to put up a wind generator. A greenhouse must have a 3.5 foot deep
foundation, my house foundation only goes down 2 feet. I put 4 inches of
foam on the greenhouse foundation walls while they weren't looking and
didn't tell them. I also used a few other tricks that don't show after I
finshed construction that saves energy.

Can do what to property values !!!! Don't get me started.
I knew what I was up against when I built my greenhouse because I built a
deck first yes it had to rest on a 3.5 foot footing. I spent $1500 building
the deck and they turn around and say it added $8000 to the value of my
home. That was back in the 1970 when my house was valued at $20,000

"Not all that glitters is gold. Half the story has never been told."

Trying to heat my first greenhouse (12' X 20') via solar was as big a hobby
for me as growing orchids. Although I learned a lot, not much was scaleable
to the 32' X 96' ones I run today. Before you start any solar projects you
need to run the numbers to see if it will be worth the effort. Key to these
calculations is the fact that one pound of water holds 1 BTU for each degree
F rise. (One of my current greenhouse can use over 2,000,000 BTUs in a not
so bad winter night.) After doing the calculations, if you are still
worried about painting the jugs black you should redo your calculations.
Although some jugs will see the light, most light coming into the greenhouse
will hit the plants and warm the air and the warmed air will heat the water.
Have good air flow around the water storage area.

While doing the calculation do not fall into the trap of calculating the
potential heat storage based on the greenhouse's daily high temperature. If
you are simply adding jugs of waters, their temperature will peak shortly
after the greenhouse temperature peaks and then release their heat during
the late afternoon trying to maintain the no furnace required temperature.
The greenhouse with water storage as compared to a greenhouse without the
water storage, will be cooler in the morning as part of the solar heat is
used to warm the water and warmer in the afternoon as the collected heat is
released. During the night, the water will just be part of the thermal mass
that warms and cools as the furnace cycles on and off. The heat cost saving
will be negligible.

That being said, I still think it is a good idea to add the water storage.
First it adds to the greenhouse's thermal mass which makes the greenhouse
temperatures a little more stable and buys you some time if the heating
system goes down. Second it reduces the number of heating cycles required
during the night, although each cycle will be longer. I think reducing the
number of cycles does provide some fuel savings for a couple of reasons
including furnace startup efficiency and less water evaporation/condensation
cycles and air warms and cools on each furnace cycle.

Talking about evaporation. Try to keep your water storage system dry to
prevent it from becoming a evaporative cooling system.

The system I ended with involved making my benches enclosed, insulated, and
filled with 2 liter bottles filled with water. The benches had a vent on
one end and a blower on the other. The blower would turn on when the
greenhouse air was warn enough and warmer than the bottle temp and would
also turn on when the bottles were warm enough and the heating set point was
reached. With this system, the vents rarely opened (not also such a good
thing) and I saved a few hours of heating every night (it provided maybe 20%
of the total heating required).

'And now you see the light.'

Pat


"K Barrett" wrote in message
...
? wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:20:09 -0400 in Rob
wrote:

I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an excellent
idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for simplicity I've
just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them under the benches.
With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or (around here at least)
I've seen them in the recycling center in thousand quantites, waiting to
be melted, they don't mind if you recycle a few hundred yourself. In
small units of a gallon, the water is easy to carry, and you can move
the milk jugs (or throw them away) if you end up needing the space that
they are in. If algae or other stuff grows in the jugs, more the
merrier. They will absorb heat better...


I've heard, granted mostly from the person that came up with the
following
idea, that water and other normal thermal masses aren't very effective
in a green house environment.

With that said, has anyone here tried sunny john's subterranean heating
and cooling system for a greenhouse with orchids?
http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/...reenhouses.htm

I may be setting one up for someone that needs to propagate grapes,
and will collect environmental data to see if it's compatible with
anything I grow.

But if someone else has done it, it'll save me a lot of trouble :-).



I haven't looked at the link about subterrenean heating yet, but figured
I'd add my 2 cents about water. Ray is the only person I know who has
used water to good effect in his GH. People here (Bay Area California)
don't really swear by it. That said nevertheless however I'm going to try
it anyway, because the science behind it seems strong and let's face it we
gotta do something.

K Barrett

I agree, Pat, that solar has a steep learning curve. I was just reading
the latest Scientific American. A fellow from the Rocky Mountain
Institute has an article about how his house is all alternative energy
and how much he's saving, selling back to the industry, etc etc etc.

Yeah. Right.

The people I know here had tried 55 gal drums placed under the bench -
similar to what Bob Gordon suggests. With no great influence on their
heating costs. I expect to duplicate your experience, that the drums
will start putting their heat back into the GH in the afternoon and lose
their storage by dawn. I put the drums in on Sunday and the GH stayed at
60F instead of 58F...and we ain't even cold yet. (remember I'm in
California and we get a hard frost once every 10 years or so.)

As I write this I realize the cost of the water to fill the 3 55-gal
drums undoubtedly erased any savings I'll have on heating. *G* Here's
hoping you are right about reducing the number of cycles the heater
comes on.
K Barrett


Pat Brennan wrote:
"Not all that glitters is gold. Half the story has never been told."

Trying to heat my first greenhouse (12' X 20') via solar was as big a hobby
for me as growing orchids. Although I learned a lot, not much was scaleable
to the 32' X 96' ones I run today. Before you start any solar projects you
need to run the numbers to see if it will be worth the effort. Key to these
calculations is the fact that one pound of water holds 1 BTU for each degree
F rise. (One of my current greenhouse can use over 2,000,000 BTUs in a not
so bad winter night.) After doing the calculations, if you are still
worried about painting the jugs black you should redo your calculations.
Although some jugs will see the light, most light coming into the greenhouse
will hit the plants and warm the air and the warmed air will heat the water.
Have good air flow around the water storage area.

While doing the calculation do not fall into the trap of calculating the
potential heat storage based on the greenhouse's daily high temperature. If
you are simply adding jugs of waters, their temperature will peak shortly
after the greenhouse temperature peaks and then release their heat during
the late afternoon trying to maintain the no furnace required temperature.
The greenhouse with water storage as compared to a greenhouse without the
water storage, will be cooler in the morning as part of the solar heat is
used to warm the water and warmer in the afternoon as the collected heat is
released. During the night, the water will just be part of the thermal mass
that warms and cools as the furnace cycles on and off. The heat cost saving
will be negligible.

That being said, I still think it is a good idea to add the water storage.
First it adds to the greenhouse's thermal mass which makes the greenhouse
temperatures a little more stable and buys you some time if the heating
system goes down. Second it reduces the number of heating cycles required
during the night, although each cycle will be longer. I think reducing the
number of cycles does provide some fuel savings for a couple of reasons
including furnace startup efficiency and less water evaporation/condensation
cycles and air warms and cools on each furnace cycle.

Talking about evaporation. Try to keep your water storage system dry to
prevent it from becoming a evaporative cooling system.

The system I ended with involved making my benches enclosed, insulated, and
filled with 2 liter bottles filled with water. The benches had a vent on
one end and a blower on the other. The blower would turn on when the
greenhouse air was warn enough and warmer than the bottle temp and would
also turn on when the bottles were warm enough and the heating set point was
reached. With this system, the vents rarely opened (not also such a good
thing) and I saved a few hours of heating every night (it provided maybe 20%
of the total heating required).

'And now you see the light.'

Pat


"K Barrett" wrote in message
...

? wrote:

On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:20:09 -0400 in Rob
wrote:


I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an excellent
idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for simplicity I've
just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them under the benches.
With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or (around here at least)
I've seen them in the recycling center in thousand quantites, waiting to
be melted, they don't mind if you recycle a few hundred yourself. In
small units of a gallon, the water is easy to carry, and you can move
the milk jugs (or throw them away) if you end up needing the space that
they are in. If algae or other stuff grows in the jugs, more the
merrier. They will absorb heat better...


I've heard, granted mostly from the person that came up with the
following
idea, that water and other normal thermal masses aren't very effective
in a green house environment.

With that said, has anyone here tried sunny john's subterranean heating
and cooling system for a greenhouse with orchids?
http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/...reenhouses.htm

I may be setting one up for someone that needs to propagate grapes,
and will collect environmental data to see if it's compatible with
anything I grow.

But if someone else has done it, it'll save me a lot of trouble :-).



I haven't looked at the link about subterrenean heating yet, but figured
I'd add my 2 cents about water. Ray is the only person I know who has
used water to good effect in his GH. People here (Bay Area California)
don't really swear by it. That said nevertheless however I'm going to try
it anyway, because the science behind it seems strong and let's face it we
gotta do something.

K Barrett