Query for the judges
Scenario:
Person A receives a CCM/AOS on Epi. Schemagle. Person A names it Epi. Schemagle 'Schmaltz'. Person A gives a piece of Epi. Schemagle 'Schmaltz' to person B. Clearly, the CCM does not go with the piece given to person B, since it is a cultural award to the original grower. Questions: 1. Does the name 'Schmaltz' go with the piece given to person B? 2. What if person B takes the plant to judging and wins an award? How is the name handled? I.E., does person B now get to name the new plant Epi. Schemagle 'Putz' (excuse me, those who get it), or does 'Schmaltz' come into play? Yeah, I have a keike from a CCM awarded plant. What if it grows like Topsy and I want to have it judged? All purely theoretical, since Frank and I were discussing the topic. Enlighten me, please. Diana |
Query for the judges
(I'm not a judge and neither do I play one on TV)
Diana Kulaga wrote: Scenario: Person A receives a CCM/AOS on Epi. Schemagle. Person A names it Epi. Schemagle 'Schmaltz'. Person A gives a piece of Epi. Schemagle 'Schmaltz' to person B. (snip) Questions: 1. Does the name 'Schmaltz' go with the piece given to person B? Yes 2. What if person B takes the plant to judging and wins an award? How is the name handled? I.E., does person B now get to name the new plant Epi. Schemagle 'Putz' (excuse me, those who get it No, because it is not a new plant. It is still a division of the previously named 'Schmaltz.' The point of the clonal name is to uniquely identify a particular clone, so it remains attached to any divisions or mericlones of that plant. Renaming it every time it receives a different award defeats that purpose. IMO, it is a good idea to assign a clonal name to un-named clones whenever you distribute divisions, even if they are not awarded. Knowing if one particular clone is widely disseminated is useful information for breeders, collectors, and judges. Of course, human nature being what it is, I'm sure there are cases of unscrupulous persons buying an awarded clone, renaming it, and resubmitting it for judging. |
Query for the judges
Nick is correct. If you get a flower quality award, it will be Epi.
Schemagle 'Schmaltz', AM/AOS (or HCC, or FCC). And if it grows like Topsy into a specimen plant, you could get a new CCM, for yourself, on your piece of it. Kenni "Diana Kulaga" wrote in message ... Scenario: Person A receives a CCM/AOS on Epi. Schemagle. Person A names it Epi. Schemagle 'Schmaltz'. Person A gives a piece of Epi. Schemagle 'Schmaltz' to person B. Clearly, the CCM does not go with the piece given to person B, since it is a cultural award to the original grower. Questions: 1. Does the name 'Schmaltz' go with the piece given to person B? 2. What if person B takes the plant to judging and wins an award? How is the name handled? I.E., does person B now get to name the new plant Epi. Schemagle 'Putz' (excuse me, those who get it), or does 'Schmaltz' come into play? Yeah, I have a keike from a CCM awarded plant. What if it grows like Topsy and I want to have it judged? All purely theoretical, since Frank and I were discussing the topic. Enlighten me, please. Diana |
Query for the judges
Thanks, folks.
Diana |
Query for the judges
One more wrinkle to this one: the plant had not yet been awarded when I
received a piece of it. Does that change things? I know this sounds like nit picking, but I am genuinely curious about it. Full disclosu I have no plans to take this plant for judging any time soon. Diana |
Query for the judges
I don't imagine it would change things. If the other person already
named the clone "A", then any divisions should still carry that name since the plants are genetically idential, regardless of award status. Cheers, Xi Diana Kulaga wrote: One more wrinkle to this one: the plant had not yet been awarded when I received a piece of it. Does that change things? I know this sounds like nit picking, but I am genuinely curious about it. Full disclosu I have no plans to take this plant for judging any time soon. Diana |
Query for the judges
Xi Wang wrote:
I don't imagine it would change things. If the other person already named the clone "A", then any divisions should still carry that name since the plants are genetically idential, regardless of award status. Cheers, Xi Diana Kulaga wrote: One more wrinkle to this one: the plant had not yet been awarded when I received a piece of it. Does that change things? I know this sounds like nit picking, but I am genuinely curious about it. Full disclosu I have no plans to take this plant for judging any time soon. Diana Ok, just to be the officious prig here... According to the AOS handbook 11th ed. pg 43, section 6.1 Purpose and granting of awards. "The Certificate of Cultural Excellence (CCE) or Certificate of Cultural Merit (CCM) will not be awarded to an orcid cultivar, but to the exhibitor of the plant and becomes part of the plant record. Divisions of the cultivar bear the culitvar name, but not the designation of CCE or CCM." For example, many many people own Paph. spicerianum 'St Albans' which has a clonal name for its CCM (1978), and was only recently given a quality award. An AM I think granted for its darker coloration than previous awards (11/04). If you know for a fact that you actually have a piece of orchid 'A' (which predates the CCM/CCE award) then you can put the clonal name on the piece, because it is in fact the same plant. K Barrett |
Query for the judges
K Barrett wrote:
For example, many many people own Paph. spicerianum 'St Albans' which has a clonal name for its CCM (1978), and was only recently given a quality award. An AM I think granted for its darker coloration than previous awards (11/04). If you know for a fact that you actually have a piece of orchid 'A' (which predates the CCM/CCE award) then you can put the clonal name on the piece, because it is in fact the same plant. Not only can you use the previously assigned clonal name, but you must, if you are playing by the rules. I'm not sure, but I think Diana may be assuming that assignment of a clonal/cultivar name is linked to the award process. An unnamed clone would need to be assigned a name at that point, but there is no reason why the naming needs to wait for an award. Consider this scenario. I grow a nice plant, divide it, and trade one or more divisions. The new owner exhibits a division and receives an award. That person names the orchid 'Foo.' I later show the division that I kept and receive an award. If I didn't hear about the award to 'Foo,' I will name the orchid myself. I call it 'Bar.' So now, we have a single clone with two different clonal names, 'Foo' and 'Bar,' and it will not be at all obvious that the two awards refer to the same plant. Confusion reigns. It would have been much better to label all the divisions 'Bar' when I traded them away, even though the plant was not awarded. |
Query for the judges
I'm not sure, but I think Diana may
be assuming that assignment of a clonal/cultivar name is linked to the award process. I think that's the crux of the issue here. A cultivar name is simply genetic tracking system, and has nothing to do with awards, of any kind. If I have a Phal A 'B', any plant with identical genes will have the clonal name 'B'. I mean, if you think about it, that's the only way it would make sense. Cheers, Xi |
Query for the judges
Diana: The bottom line is that you are stuck with the clonal name
'Schmaltz'. There are lots of named clones out there which have never been awarded. It still wouldn't be right to change the clonal name on one or more of them, unless perhaps you could somehow be sure you had every single one in existence and then gave the whole group your new clonal name. E.g., I have one Catt that bloomed out green amongst a sea of magenta/spotted siblings. I gave it the clonal name 'Green Ice' so I could tell it apart while the plants were out of bloom. Eventually it made 4 or 5 divisions. Before I sold any of them, I could have changed my mind and picked a new clonal name such as 'Envy.' But now that some of the other divisions belong to other people, it would be inappropriate for me to do that, even if it were to receive an award. Kenni "Diana Kulaga" wrote in message ... One more wrinkle to this one: the plant had not yet been awarded when I received a piece of it. Does that change things? I know this sounds like nit picking, but I am genuinely curious about it. Full disclosu I have no plans to take this plant for judging any time soon. Diana |
Query for the judges
I was clear on the difference between naming and awards, and also that a CCM
doesn't travel with divisions. Perhaps the one thing that I didn't mention is that I got my division prior to the CCM being awarded to the person who gave it to me. Not that it matters, because I will keep the name given by the owner of the original plant. And I can certainly see the value in keeping the identification intact. What this discussion has changed for me is that I will never again give or trade away a division without naming the plant first. Time to alter some tags. Nick, your 'Foo' and 'Bar', you have no idea what befell me a few years back when I joined in a pickup game of slow pitch while wearing my "Fubar" T-shirt! ;-O Diana |
Query for the judges
Unfortunately, each of the 4 or 5 new owners could now give it their own
cultivar names! A flawed system, perhaps? -- Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info! "Kenni Judd" wrote in message ... Diana: The bottom line is that you are stuck with the clonal name 'Schmaltz'. There are lots of named clones out there which have never been awarded. It still wouldn't be right to change the clonal name on one or more of them, unless perhaps you could somehow be sure you had every single one in existence and then gave the whole group your new clonal name. E.g., I have one Catt that bloomed out green amongst a sea of magenta/spotted siblings. I gave it the clonal name 'Green Ice' so I could tell it apart while the plants were out of bloom. Eventually it made 4 or 5 divisions. Before I sold any of them, I could have changed my mind and picked a new clonal name such as 'Envy.' But now that some of the other divisions belong to other people, it would be inappropriate for me to do that, even if it were to receive an award. Kenni "Diana Kulaga" wrote in message ... One more wrinkle to this one: the plant had not yet been awarded when I received a piece of it. Does that change things? I know this sounds like nit picking, but I am genuinely curious about it. Full disclosu I have no plans to take this plant for judging any time soon. Diana |
Query for the judges
Well, they _could_, but they shouldn't. I can't imagine a workable
enforcement system, though. Kenni "Ray" wrote in message ... Unfortunately, each of the 4 or 5 new owners could now give it their own cultivar names! A flawed system, perhaps? -- Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info! "Kenni Judd" wrote in message ... Diana: The bottom line is that you are stuck with the clonal name 'Schmaltz'. There are lots of named clones out there which have never been awarded. It still wouldn't be right to change the clonal name on one or more of them, unless perhaps you could somehow be sure you had every single one in existence and then gave the whole group your new clonal name. E.g., I have one Catt that bloomed out green amongst a sea of magenta/spotted siblings. I gave it the clonal name 'Green Ice' so I could tell it apart while the plants were out of bloom. Eventually it made 4 or 5 divisions. Before I sold any of them, I could have changed my mind and picked a new clonal name such as 'Envy.' But now that some of the other divisions belong to other people, it would be inappropriate for me to do that, even if it were to receive an award. Kenni "Diana Kulaga" wrote in message ... One more wrinkle to this one: the plant had not yet been awarded when I received a piece of it. Does that change things? I know this sounds like nit picking, but I am genuinely curious about it. Full disclosu I have no plans to take this plant for judging any time soon. Diana |
Query for the judges
Diana Kulaga wrote:
I was clear on the difference between naming and awards, and also that a CCM doesn't travel with divisions. Perhaps the one thing that I didn't mention is that I got my division prior to the CCM being awarded to the person who gave it to me. Not that it matters, because I will keep the name given by the owner of the original plant. And I can certainly see the value in keeping the identification intact. What this discussion has changed for me is that I will never again give or trade away a division without naming the plant first. Time to alter some tags. Nick, your 'Foo' and 'Bar', you have no idea what befell me a few years back when I joined in a pickup game of slow pitch while wearing my "Fubar" T-shirt! ;-O Diana You always know what kind of person you are dealing with when they use variables 'foo' and 'bar'... Secret club. *grin* Everything said so far seems to be correct, IMHO. And there is indeed no enforcement system. It can be a pain, for example: There is a clone of Vuyl. (something) Isler (I can't quite remember before the coffee kicks in) which was propagated before it was named. There are several awards to this grex, but it is highly probable that all the awards are to the same clone, grown by different people, who knew no better and gave it their own clonal names. For me, even though cultural awards are to the grower, I like to see the CCM or CCE propagate through the tags and divisions. For several reasons. As a judge, if I see a huge plant at a show and I'm wondering whether I should pull it or not, it helps to know that there is already a cultural award to the plant. Yes, I can still give it another cultural award, but now I know who I'm comparing it to. And I'd find that out in research anyway, so it isn't a big deal, but it can save a step. A second reason I like to see the awards is that as a buyer I know that this plant is capable of vigorous growth and impressive displays. A lot of plants (most, probably) are just not capable of becoming specimen plants. -- Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a) See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more orchids, obtain more credit |
Query for the judges
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 07:05:13 -0500 in Kenni Judd wrote:
Well, they _could_, but they shouldn't. I can't imagine a workable enforcement system, though. Kenni Genetic database and have as a requisite to entry a plant sample sufficient to undergo gene sequencing. The trick is getting the price and size down on the equipment. But I bet that the anti genetically modified food crops crowd could be talked into funding cheaper portable equipment for that. -- Chris Dukes Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil |
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