Scenario:

Person A receives a CCM/AOS on Epi. Schemagle. Person A names it Epi.
Schemagle 'Schmaltz'.

Person A gives a piece of Epi. Schemagle 'Schmaltz' to person B.

Clearly, the CCM does not go with the piece given to person B, since it is a
cultural award to the original grower.

Questions:

1. Does the name 'Schmaltz' go with the piece given to person B?
2. What if person B takes the plant to judging and wins an award? How is the
name handled? I.E., does person B now get to name the new plant Epi.
Schemagle 'Putz' (excuse me, those who get it), or does 'Schmaltz' come into
play?

Yeah, I have a keike from a CCM awarded plant. What if it grows like Topsy
and I want to have it judged? All purely theoretical, since Frank and I were
discussing the topic.

Enlighten me, please.

Diana

(I'm not a judge and neither do I play one on TV)

Diana Kulaga wrote:
Scenario:

Person A receives a CCM/AOS on Epi. Schemagle. Person A names it Epi.
Schemagle 'Schmaltz'.

Person A gives a piece of Epi. Schemagle 'Schmaltz' to person B.
(snip)
Questions:

1. Does the name 'Schmaltz' go with the piece given to person B?

Yes

2. What if person B takes the plant to judging and wins an award? How is the
name handled? I.E., does person B now get to name the new plant Epi.
Schemagle 'Putz' (excuse me, those who get it

No, because it is not a new plant. It is still a division of the
previously named 'Schmaltz.'

The point of the clonal name is to uniquely identify a particular
clone, so it remains attached to any divisions or mericlones of that
plant. Renaming it every time it receives a different award defeats
that purpose. IMO, it is a good idea to assign a clonal name to
un-named clones whenever you distribute divisions, even if they are not
awarded. Knowing if one particular clone is widely disseminated is
useful information for breeders, collectors, and judges. Of course,
human nature being what it is, I'm sure there are cases of unscrupulous
persons buying an awarded clone, renaming it, and resubmitting it for
judging.

Nick is correct. If you get a flower quality award, it will be Epi.
Schemagle 'Schmaltz', AM/AOS (or HCC, or FCC). And if it grows like Topsy
into a specimen plant, you could get a new CCM, for yourself, on your piece
of it. Kenni

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
news
Scenario:

Person A receives a CCM/AOS on Epi. Schemagle. Person A names it Epi.
Schemagle 'Schmaltz'.

Person A gives a piece of Epi. Schemagle 'Schmaltz' to person B.

Clearly, the CCM does not go with the piece given to person B, since it is
a cultural award to the original grower.

Questions:

1. Does the name 'Schmaltz' go with the piece given to person B?
2. What if person B takes the plant to judging and wins an award? How is
the name handled? I.E., does person B now get to name the new plant Epi.
Schemagle 'Putz' (excuse me, those who get it), or does 'Schmaltz' come
into play?

Yeah, I have a keike from a CCM awarded plant. What if it grows like Topsy
and I want to have it judged? All purely theoretical, since Frank and I
were discussing the topic.

Enlighten me, please.

Diana

Thanks, folks.

Diana

One more wrinkle to this one: the plant had not yet been awarded when I
received a piece of it. Does that change things?

I know this sounds like nit picking, but I am genuinely curious about it.
Full disclosu I have no plans to take this plant for judging any time
soon.

Diana

I don't imagine it would change things. If the other person already
named the clone "A", then any divisions should still carry that name
since the plants are genetically idential, regardless of award status.

Cheers,
Xi

Diana Kulaga wrote:
One more wrinkle to this one: the plant had not yet been awarded when I
received a piece of it. Does that change things?

I know this sounds like nit picking, but I am genuinely curious about it.
Full disclosu I have no plans to take this plant for judging any time
soon.

Diana

Xi Wang wrote:
I don't imagine it would change things. If the other person already
named the clone "A", then any divisions should still carry that name
since the plants are genetically idential, regardless of award status.

Cheers,
Xi

Diana Kulaga wrote:

One more wrinkle to this one: the plant had not yet been awarded when
I received a piece of it. Does that change things?

I know this sounds like nit picking, but I am genuinely curious about
it. Full disclosu I have no plans to take this plant for judging
any time soon.

Diana


Ok, just to be the officious prig here...

According to the AOS handbook 11th ed. pg 43, section 6.1 Purpose and
granting of awards.

"The Certificate of Cultural Excellence (CCE) or Certificate of Cultural
Merit (CCM) will not be awarded to an orcid cultivar, but to the
exhibitor of the plant and becomes part of the plant record. Divisions
of the cultivar bear the culitvar name, but not the designation of CCE
or CCM."

For example, many many people own Paph. spicerianum 'St Albans' which
has a clonal name for its CCM (1978), and was only recently given a
quality award. An AM I think granted for its darker coloration than
previous awards (11/04).

If you know for a fact that you actually have a piece of orchid 'A'
(which predates the CCM/CCE award) then you can put the clonal name on
the piece, because it is in fact the same plant.

K Barrett

K Barrett wrote:
For example, many many people own Paph. spicerianum 'St Albans' which
has a clonal name for its CCM (1978), and was only recently given a
quality award. An AM I think granted for its darker coloration than
previous awards (11/04).

If you know for a fact that you actually have a piece of orchid 'A'
(which predates the CCM/CCE award) then you can put the clonal name on
the piece, because it is in fact the same plant.

Not only can you use the previously assigned clonal name, but you must,
if you are playing by the rules. I'm not sure, but I think Diana may
be assuming that assignment of a clonal/cultivar name is linked to the
award process. An unnamed clone would need to be assigned a name at
that point, but there is no reason why the naming needs to wait for an
award.

Consider this scenario. I grow a nice plant, divide it, and trade one
or more divisions. The new owner exhibits a division and receives an
award. That person names the orchid 'Foo.' I later show the division
that I kept and receive an award. If I didn't hear about the award to
'Foo,' I will name the orchid myself. I call it 'Bar.' So now, we
have a single clone with two different clonal names, 'Foo' and 'Bar,'
and it will not be at all obvious that the two awards refer to the same
plant. Confusion reigns. It would have been much better to label all
the divisions 'Bar' when I traded them away, even though the plant was
not awarded.

I'm not sure, but I think Diana may
be assuming that assignment of a clonal/cultivar name is linked to the
award process.

I think that's the crux of the issue here. A cultivar name is simply
genetic tracking system, and has nothing to do with awards, of any kind.
If I have a Phal A 'B', any plant with identical genes will have the
clonal name 'B'. I mean, if you think about it, that's the only way it
would make sense.

Cheers,
Xi

Diana: The bottom line is that you are stuck with the clonal name
'Schmaltz'. There are lots of named clones out there which have never been
awarded. It still wouldn't be right to change the clonal name on one or
more of them, unless perhaps you could somehow be sure you had every single
one in existence and then gave the whole group your new clonal name.

E.g., I have one Catt that bloomed out green amongst a sea of
magenta/spotted siblings. I gave it the clonal name 'Green Ice' so I could
tell it apart while the plants were out of bloom. Eventually it made 4 or 5
divisions. Before I sold any of them, I could have changed my mind and
picked a new clonal name such as 'Envy.' But now that some of the other
divisions belong to other people, it would be inappropriate for me to do
that, even if it were to receive an award. Kenni


"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
One more wrinkle to this one: the plant had not yet been awarded when I
received a piece of it. Does that change things?

I know this sounds like nit picking, but I am genuinely curious about it.
Full disclosu I have no plans to take this plant for judging any time
soon.

Diana

I was clear on the difference between naming and awards, and also that a CCM
doesn't travel with divisions. Perhaps the one thing that I didn't mention
is that I got my division prior to the CCM being awarded to the person who
gave it to me. Not that it matters, because I will keep the name given by
the owner of the original plant. And I can certainly see the value in
keeping the identification intact.

What this discussion has changed for me is that I will never again give or
trade away a division without naming the plant first. Time to alter some
tags.

Nick, your 'Foo' and 'Bar', you have no idea what befell me a few years
back when I joined in a pickup game of slow pitch while wearing my "Fubar"
T-shirt! ;-O

Diana

Unfortunately, each of the 4 or 5 new owners could now give it their own
cultivar names!

A flawed system, perhaps?

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"Kenni Judd" wrote in message
...
Diana: The bottom line is that you are stuck with the clonal name
'Schmaltz'. There are lots of named clones out there which have never
been awarded. It still wouldn't be right to change the clonal name on one
or more of them, unless perhaps you could somehow be sure you had every
single one in existence and then gave the whole group your new clonal
name.

E.g., I have one Catt that bloomed out green amongst a sea of
magenta/spotted siblings. I gave it the clonal name 'Green Ice' so I
could tell it apart while the plants were out of bloom. Eventually it
made 4 or 5 divisions. Before I sold any of them, I could have changed my
mind and picked a new clonal name such as 'Envy.' But now that some of
the other divisions belong to other people, it would be inappropriate for
me to do that, even if it were to receive an award. Kenni


"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
One more wrinkle to this one: the plant had not yet been awarded when I
received a piece of it. Does that change things?

I know this sounds like nit picking, but I am genuinely curious about it.
Full disclosu I have no plans to take this plant for judging any time
soon.

Diana

Well, they _could_, but they shouldn't. I can't imagine a workable
enforcement system, though. Kenni

"Ray" wrote in message
...
Unfortunately, each of the 4 or 5 new owners could now give it their own
cultivar names!

A flawed system, perhaps?

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"Kenni Judd" wrote in message
...
Diana: The bottom line is that you are stuck with the clonal name
'Schmaltz'. There are lots of named clones out there which have never
been awarded. It still wouldn't be right to change the clonal name on
one or more of them, unless perhaps you could somehow be sure you had
every single one in existence and then gave the whole group your new
clonal name.

E.g., I have one Catt that bloomed out green amongst a sea of
magenta/spotted siblings. I gave it the clonal name 'Green Ice' so I
could tell it apart while the plants were out of bloom. Eventually it
made 4 or 5 divisions. Before I sold any of them, I could have changed
my mind and picked a new clonal name such as 'Envy.' But now that some
of the other divisions belong to other people, it would be inappropriate
for me to do that, even if it were to receive an award. Kenni


"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
One more wrinkle to this one: the plant had not yet been awarded when I
received a piece of it. Does that change things?

I know this sounds like nit picking, but I am genuinely curious about
it. Full disclosu I have no plans to take this plant for judging any
time soon.

Diana

Diana Kulaga wrote:
I was clear on the difference between naming and awards, and also that a CCM
doesn't travel with divisions. Perhaps the one thing that I didn't mention
is that I got my division prior to the CCM being awarded to the person who
gave it to me. Not that it matters, because I will keep the name given by
the owner of the original plant. And I can certainly see the value in
keeping the identification intact.

What this discussion has changed for me is that I will never again give or
trade away a division without naming the plant first. Time to alter some
tags.

Nick, your 'Foo' and 'Bar', you have no idea what befell me a few years
back when I joined in a pickup game of slow pitch while wearing my "Fubar"
T-shirt! ;-O

Diana



You always know what kind of person you are dealing with when they use
variables 'foo' and 'bar'... Secret club. *grin*

Everything said so far seems to be correct, IMHO. And there is indeed
no enforcement system. It can be a pain, for example: There is a clone
of Vuyl. (something) Isler (I can't quite remember before the coffee
kicks in) which was propagated before it was named. There are several
awards to this grex, but it is highly probable that all the awards are
to the same clone, grown by different people, who knew no better and
gave it their own clonal names.

For me, even though cultural awards are to the grower, I like to see the
CCM or CCE propagate through the tags and divisions. For several
reasons. As a judge, if I see a huge plant at a show and I'm wondering
whether I should pull it or not, it helps to know that there is already
a cultural award to the plant. Yes, I can still give it another
cultural award, but now I know who I'm comparing it to. And I'd find
that out in research anyway, so it isn't a big deal, but it can save a
step. A second reason I like to see the awards is that as a buyer I
know that this plant is capable of vigorous growth and impressive
displays. A lot of plants (most, probably) are just not capable of
becoming specimen plants.

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 07:05:13 -0500 in Kenni Judd wrote:
Well, they _could_, but they shouldn't. I can't imagine a workable
enforcement system, though. Kenni

Genetic database and have as a requisite to entry a plant sample
sufficient to undergo gene sequencing.
The trick is getting the price and size down on the equipment.
But I bet that the anti genetically modified food crops crowd could
be talked into funding cheaper portable equipment for that.


--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil