taiwan article
 

August 24, 2004
Orchids Flourish on Taiwanese Production Line
By KEITH BRADSHER

--NYT


HOUBI, Taiwan - Rising from what was once a muddy expanse of sugar
cane fields here are huge greenhouses and the concrete shells of what
will soon be a flower exposition hall, a genetic modification
laboratory and more - the first steps in Taiwan's plan to dominate the
world's $2 billion orchid industry.
If the Taiwan effort is successful, orchids could lose their image as
the high-priced but finicky princes of the floral world and become
lesser nobility, almost as inexpensive as poinsettias. The favored
flower for debutantes' corsages a generation ago, orchids are already
starting to appear in rows of $15 potted specimens at mass
merchandisers like Home Depot, and seem poised to become even cheaper.
With their mysteriously complex shapes and colors and their exotic and
inaccessible homes in swamps and tropical forests, orchids were the
darlings of wealthy collectors in Victorian days. They were hunted
across the globe by adventurers who not infrequently gave their lives
in pursuit of very rare varieties that even today can sometimes bring
thousands of dollars.
Large commercial greenhouses have robbed orchids of some of their
elite cachet since then. Now, if Taiwan is successful, there could be
orchids for the masses. Seeking a cash crop to replace sugar, which is
plagued by falling prices, Taiwan is hoping to double its orchid
business, and the government plans to bring heavy public spending into
the previously private world of growing orchids.
But Taiwan's ambitious plans to become a flower power have set off
legal, economic, environmental and political debates from here to
Washington.
A federal court in the United States is scheduled to hear arguments
this autumn from Hawaiian orchid growers who contend that Taiwan's
ambitions threaten their livelihood and the environment.
Nearly a quarter of the world's orchids now spend at least part of
their lives in Taiwanese greenhouses.
Taiwan produces mainly a lovely genus of orchids known as
phalaenopsis, or moth orchids. The blossoms come in many hues, from
gold to lilac to white, and in striped and polka-dot patterns. These
are the mainstay of the orchid industry, although oncidiums also sell
well. Fancier varieties sold by florists, like cattleyas and vandas,
can cost several times as much.
With globalization and outsourcing, orchids have been getting ever
cheaper. Many are now started in labs in industrialized countries like
the United States and Japan and then shipped by air in glass flasks to
places like Thailand to grow. They are then shipped back by air in
boxes, their roots bare of soil, to be potted and grown in greenhouses
close to their final markets for the last six to eight months before
they bloom.
This summer, after six years of sometimes bitter review, the United
States Department of Agriculture approved regulations that would allow
potted phalaenopsis to be imported from Taiwan. But orchid growers in
Hawaii have asked a federal court for a preliminary injunction to
block the imports.
The Hawaiian growers contend that the potting material, a type of
moss, could harbor dangerous insects like blood-sucking midges and
tiny thrips, which can carry plant diseases.
"What effect would it have on the ecology, and the safety of our
plants, with the introduction of pathogens and pests and so forth from
Southeast Asia?" asked Walter Moé, the president of the Hawaii Orchid
Growers Association. The Hawaiian growers are also upset by what they
see as unfair subsidies from Taiwan's Democratic Progressive
government, which favors greater independence from mainland China.
The government of Taiwan is paying $65 million to cover the
construction costs of everything except the greenhouses - and is
offering government-backed, 10-year loans at 2 percent interest to
help farmers build those.
Yen Chun-tso, the deputy magistrate of Tainan County, which includes
the village of Houbi and which is administering the new orchid
plantation, said the new complex complied with international free
trade rules, which allow the government to pay for infrastructure.
Officials in Washington declined to comment.
When finished, the Taiwan Orchid Plantation will have not only an
exposition hall and genetics laboratory, but also a quarantine site,
shipping and packing areas, a grid of new roads edged by tidy brick
sidewalks and water and electrical hookups for more than 200
industrial-size greenhouses. It will create 1,500 jobs.
Like Taipei 101, which will become the world's tallest building by
most measures when it opens in December, the Taiwan Orchid Plantation
here is a monument to the vaulting ambitions of Chen Shui-bian,
Taiwan's president for the last four years. It also is a physical
reminder to everyone in Tainan County that a hometown boy did well:
President Chen was born and raised in a small farming village a dozen
miles away.
Mr. Yen said that local officials from Mr. Chen's Democratic
Progressive Party would cite the plantation in future election
campaigns.
Orchid farmers here say that while they want to bring mass production
to orchids, they also care deeply about their flowers. Lin Fan-jung,
an orchid farmer, walked through his greenhouses recently and pointed
out the unused automatic sprinkler system. It does not provide exactly
the right amount of water, so workers water each plant by hand, he
said.
Walking through four successive doors, including an air lock with
powerful fans to remove dust and bacteria from visitors, Mr. Lin
showed off a lab where young women wearing hair nets used sharp knives
to carefully divide baby orchid plants.
Orchid buyers should never smoke around their plants because orchids
are very sensitive to air pollution, he said, adding: "An orchid is
something with its own life. You should take care of it like your own
children." Farmers here say that they ship live potted orchids to
countries across Asia, Europe and Latin America without problems from
insects or diseases. Taiwan's growers persuaded the United States
Agriculture Department that finely woven nets over greenhouse air
vents here would keep bugs away from the plants.
American growers respond that European and Japanese importers douse
arriving plants with pesticides that United States law does not allow.
The Hawaiian growers also contend that three species of wild orchids
indigenous to their islands, one endangered and the other two listed
as threatened, could be devastated if dangerous insects or plant
diseases arrived from Taiwan.
Taiwan has a huge advantage on labor costs. Greenhouse workers here
earn $600 a month, a third of what workers doing similar jobs earn in
expensive Hawaii.
Shipping orchids in pots, instead of with bare roots in boxes, would
allow Taiwan to export bigger plants that would require less time to
mature in American greenhouses. After Taiwan's recent success, the
Netherlands, which dominates the European market, petitioned the
Agriculture Department to allow Dutch growers to ship potted
phalaenopsis to the United States, too; the department has not yet
acted on the petition.
These developments are all the more worrisome to Hawaiian growers
because Thailand, too, has become a huge orchid seller. However, it
sells mainly cut orchid flowers, and plays a lesser role in the more
technologically demanding business of supplying live plants. Almost
all of the orchids in the leis given to tourists in Hawaii now come
from Thailand, forcing Hawaiian growers to depend on sales of potted
orchids, Mr. Moé said.
Many restaurants also use Thai orchids to decorate tropical meals, to
the dismay of orchid experts. Leon Lin, an orchid adviser to the
Tainan County government, wrinkled his nose in disgust when his lunch
plate of fried rice in Hsinying, the county seat, came with a cut
purple orchid on top. "All orchids are drenched with pesticides - they
should never be allowed to touch food,'' he said, grimacing as he
gingerly removed the flower with his right thumb and forefinger and
tossed it in the middle of the table.
Orchids have even made a splash in publishing and movies in recent
years, with the publication of a successful book, "The Orchid Thief,"
by Susan Orlean, which was also made into a movie, "Adaptation.''
The book chronicled the attention given to orchids through a long
stretch of recorded history, from their cultivation by the upper
classes in China for 3,000 years to their use as medicine to treat
everything from boils to sick elephants. "Even if you can buy them at
Home Depot they still have a quality that's alluring and strangely
forbidding," she said in a telephone interview.
As in many industries, the spectacular economic expansion in China has
cushioned orchid growers somewhat from rising competition. In January,
Chinese buyers bought up practically every live red orchid in Asia and
Europe for Chinese New Year, paying breathtaking prices of as much as
$30 a plant at wholesale, said Andrew Easton, an executive at Kerry's
Bromeliads in Homestead, Fla.
But the long-term trend in orchid prices is clearly downward, even as
quality improves. Mr. Easton remembers paying $80 in 1958 for a small
purple cattleya.
"Now,'' he said, "I can get an orchid as good as that one for $25.''


--j_a

The Hawaiians are right....

K Barrett

"janet_a" wrote in message
om...
August 24, 2004
Orchids Flourish on Taiwanese Production Line
By KEITH BRADSHER

--NYT


HOUBI, Taiwan - Rising from what was once a muddy expanse of sugar
cane fields here are huge greenhouses and the concrete shells of what
will soon be a flower exposition hall, a genetic modification
laboratory and more - the first steps in Taiwan's plan to dominate the
world's $2 billion orchid industry.
If the Taiwan effort is successful, orchids could lose their image as
the high-priced but finicky princes of the floral world and become
lesser nobility, almost as inexpensive as poinsettias. The favored
flower for debutantes' corsages a generation ago, orchids are already
starting to appear in rows of $15 potted specimens at mass
merchandisers like Home Depot, and seem poised to become even cheaper.
With their mysteriously complex shapes and colors and their exotic and
inaccessible homes in swamps and tropical forests, orchids were the
darlings of wealthy collectors in Victorian days. They were hunted
across the globe by adventurers who not infrequently gave their lives
in pursuit of very rare varieties that even today can sometimes bring
thousands of dollars.
Large commercial greenhouses have robbed orchids of some of their
elite cachet since then. Now, if Taiwan is successful, there could be
orchids for the masses. Seeking a cash crop to replace sugar, which is
plagued by falling prices, Taiwan is hoping to double its orchid
business, and the government plans to bring heavy public spending into
the previously private world of growing orchids.
But Taiwan's ambitious plans to become a flower power have set off
legal, economic, environmental and political debates from here to
Washington.
A federal court in the United States is scheduled to hear arguments
this autumn from Hawaiian orchid growers who contend that Taiwan's
ambitions threaten their livelihood and the environment.
Nearly a quarter of the world's orchids now spend at least part of
their lives in Taiwanese greenhouses.
Taiwan produces mainly a lovely genus of orchids known as
phalaenopsis, or moth orchids. The blossoms come in many hues, from
gold to lilac to white, and in striped and polka-dot patterns. These
are the mainstay of the orchid industry, although oncidiums also sell
well. Fancier varieties sold by florists, like cattleyas and vandas,
can cost several times as much.
With globalization and outsourcing, orchids have been getting ever
cheaper. Many are now started in labs in industrialized countries like
the United States and Japan and then shipped by air in glass flasks to
places like Thailand to grow. They are then shipped back by air in
boxes, their roots bare of soil, to be potted and grown in greenhouses
close to their final markets for the last six to eight months before
they bloom.
This summer, after six years of sometimes bitter review, the United
States Department of Agriculture approved regulations that would allow
potted phalaenopsis to be imported from Taiwan. But orchid growers in
Hawaii have asked a federal court for a preliminary injunction to
block the imports.
The Hawaiian growers contend that the potting material, a type of
moss, could harbor dangerous insects like blood-sucking midges and
tiny thrips, which can carry plant diseases.
"What effect would it have on the ecology, and the safety of our
plants, with the introduction of pathogens and pests and so forth from
Southeast Asia?" asked Walter Moé, the president of the Hawaii Orchid
Growers Association. The Hawaiian growers are also upset by what they
see as unfair subsidies from Taiwan's Democratic Progressive
government, which favors greater independence from mainland China.
The government of Taiwan is paying $65 million to cover the
construction costs of everything except the greenhouses - and is
offering government-backed, 10-year loans at 2 percent interest to
help farmers build those.
Yen Chun-tso, the deputy magistrate of Tainan County, which includes
the village of Houbi and which is administering the new orchid
plantation, said the new complex complied with international free
trade rules, which allow the government to pay for infrastructure.
Officials in Washington declined to comment.
When finished, the Taiwan Orchid Plantation will have not only an
exposition hall and genetics laboratory, but also a quarantine site,
shipping and packing areas, a grid of new roads edged by tidy brick
sidewalks and water and electrical hookups for more than 200
industrial-size greenhouses. It will create 1,500 jobs.
Like Taipei 101, which will become the world's tallest building by
most measures when it opens in December, the Taiwan Orchid Plantation
here is a monument to the vaulting ambitions of Chen Shui-bian,
Taiwan's president for the last four years. It also is a physical
reminder to everyone in Tainan County that a hometown boy did well:
President Chen was born and raised in a small farming village a dozen
miles away.
Mr. Yen said that local officials from Mr. Chen's Democratic
Progressive Party would cite the plantation in future election
campaigns.
Orchid farmers here say that while they want to bring mass production
to orchids, they also care deeply about their flowers. Lin Fan-jung,
an orchid farmer, walked through his greenhouses recently and pointed
out the unused automatic sprinkler system. It does not provide exactly
the right amount of water, so workers water each plant by hand, he
said.
Walking through four successive doors, including an air lock with
powerful fans to remove dust and bacteria from visitors, Mr. Lin
showed off a lab where young women wearing hair nets used sharp knives
to carefully divide baby orchid plants.
Orchid buyers should never smoke around their plants because orchids
are very sensitive to air pollution, he said, adding: "An orchid is
something with its own life. You should take care of it like your own
children." Farmers here say that they ship live potted orchids to
countries across Asia, Europe and Latin America without problems from
insects or diseases. Taiwan's growers persuaded the United States
Agriculture Department that finely woven nets over greenhouse air
vents here would keep bugs away from the plants.
American growers respond that European and Japanese importers douse
arriving plants with pesticides that United States law does not allow.
The Hawaiian growers also contend that three species of wild orchids
indigenous to their islands, one endangered and the other two listed
as threatened, could be devastated if dangerous insects or plant
diseases arrived from Taiwan.
Taiwan has a huge advantage on labor costs. Greenhouse workers here
earn $600 a month, a third of what workers doing similar jobs earn in
expensive Hawaii.
Shipping orchids in pots, instead of with bare roots in boxes, would
allow Taiwan to export bigger plants that would require less time to
mature in American greenhouses. After Taiwan's recent success, the
Netherlands, which dominates the European market, petitioned the
Agriculture Department to allow Dutch growers to ship potted
phalaenopsis to the United States, too; the department has not yet
acted on the petition.
These developments are all the more worrisome to Hawaiian growers
because Thailand, too, has become a huge orchid seller. However, it
sells mainly cut orchid flowers, and plays a lesser role in the more
technologically demanding business of supplying live plants. Almost
all of the orchids in the leis given to tourists in Hawaii now come
from Thailand, forcing Hawaiian growers to depend on sales of potted
orchids, Mr. Moé said.
Many restaurants also use Thai orchids to decorate tropical meals, to
the dismay of orchid experts. Leon Lin, an orchid adviser to the
Tainan County government, wrinkled his nose in disgust when his lunch
plate of fried rice in Hsinying, the county seat, came with a cut
purple orchid on top. "All orchids are drenched with pesticides - they
should never be allowed to touch food,'' he said, grimacing as he
gingerly removed the flower with his right thumb and forefinger and
tossed it in the middle of the table.
Orchids have even made a splash in publishing and movies in recent
years, with the publication of a successful book, "The Orchid Thief,"
by Susan Orlean, which was also made into a movie, "Adaptation.''
The book chronicled the attention given to orchids through a long
stretch of recorded history, from their cultivation by the upper
classes in China for 3,000 years to their use as medicine to treat
everything from boils to sick elephants. "Even if you can buy them at
Home Depot they still have a quality that's alluring and strangely
forbidding," she said in a telephone interview.
As in many industries, the spectacular economic expansion in China has
cushioned orchid growers somewhat from rising competition. In January,
Chinese buyers bought up practically every live red orchid in Asia and
Europe for Chinese New Year, paying breathtaking prices of as much as
$30 a plant at wholesale, said Andrew Easton, an executive at Kerry's
Bromeliads in Homestead, Fla.
But the long-term trend in orchid prices is clearly downward, even as
quality improves. Mr. Easton remembers paying $80 in 1958 for a small
purple cattleya.
"Now,'' he said, "I can get an orchid as good as that one for $25.''


--j_a

The Hawaiians are right....

K Barrett

I read that article in the Times this AM. I tend to agree, Kathy, but I'm
open to argument.

My comment on the article is that once again, the NY Times, with so many
resources, has published a rather simplistic article on orchids. Other past
articles have been even simpler. I know that they need to make the subject
easily understood by all their readers, but they really dumb it down. Just
my HO.

Diana

The Hawaiians are right....

K Barrett

I read that article in the Times this AM. I tend to agree, Kathy, but I'm
open to argument.

My comment on the article is that once again, the NY Times, with so many
resources, has published a rather simplistic article on orchids. Other past
articles have been even simpler. I know that they need to make the subject
easily understood by all their readers, but they really dumb it down. Just
my HO.

Diana

I see it as protecting US small business. One of my friends has been
involved with the Taiwan side of this article and sees it as efficient
markets. If you can't compete then you should fold. Well, I always sided
with Old Fezziwig in 'A Christmas Carol' when he said it wasn't for money
alone that one builds up a business, but to protect a way of life. Of
course you know what happened to Fezziwig. Scrooge and Marley bought him
out for pennies on the dollar and put him out of business.

K Barrett
What will the next generation do with all those Harleys and RVs when we baby
boomers are dead and gone?


"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
link.net...
The Hawaiians are right....

K Barrett

I read that article in the Times this AM. I tend to agree, Kathy, but I'm
open to argument.

My comment on the article is that once again, the NY Times, with so many
resources, has published a rather simplistic article on orchids. Other
past
articles have been even simpler. I know that they need to make the
subject
easily understood by all their readers, but they really dumb it down.
Just
my HO.

Diana

I see it as protecting US small business. One of my friends has been
involved with the Taiwan side of this article and sees it as efficient
markets. If you can't compete then you should fold. Well, I always sided
with Old Fezziwig in 'A Christmas Carol' when he said it wasn't for money
alone that one builds up a business, but to protect a way of life. Of
course you know what happened to Fezziwig. Scrooge and Marley bought him
out for pennies on the dollar and put him out of business.

K Barrett
What will the next generation do with all those Harleys and RVs when we baby
boomers are dead and gone?


"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
link.net...
The Hawaiians are right....

K Barrett

I read that article in the Times this AM. I tend to agree, Kathy, but I'm
open to argument.

My comment on the article is that once again, the NY Times, with so many
resources, has published a rather simplistic article on orchids. Other
past
articles have been even simpler. I know that they need to make the
subject
easily understood by all their readers, but they really dumb it down.
Just
my HO.

Diana

Kath,

You probably don't grow hybrid Phals. The Taiwan growers seem to have the
really good stuff. Their breeding and cloning programs are providing truly
leading edge products that don't seem to be available anywhere else.
However, I don't buy from Taiwan but from the USA growers that import their
plants. This is a bad thing? I am constantly on the prowl (via the WWW)
for domestic growers offering stem props of their good stuff. OK, I know
that I am highly selective in what I purchase but I WILL get it from those
who can sell it to me. If domestic growers provide a superior product, I
will buy theirs. If plants from Taiwan become more expensive because
Hawaiian growers get some sort of "protection" I will still buy the plants I
want - not something inferior from a protected grower.

David


"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:3LSWc.85009$TI1.27882@attbi_s52...
I see it as protecting US small business. One of my friends has been
involved with the Taiwan side of this article and sees it as efficient
markets. If you can't compete then you should fold. Well, I always sided
with Old Fezziwig in 'A Christmas Carol' when he said it wasn't for money
alone that one builds up a business, but to protect a way of life. Of
course you know what happened to Fezziwig. Scrooge and Marley bought him
out for pennies on the dollar and put him out of business.

K Barrett
What will the next generation do with all those Harleys and RVs when we
baby
boomers are dead and gone?

Kath,

You probably don't grow hybrid Phals. The Taiwan growers seem to have the
really good stuff. Their breeding and cloning programs are providing truly
leading edge products that don't seem to be available anywhere else.
However, I don't buy from Taiwan but from the USA growers that import their
plants. This is a bad thing? I am constantly on the prowl (via the WWW)
for domestic growers offering stem props of their good stuff. OK, I know
that I am highly selective in what I purchase but I WILL get it from those
who can sell it to me. If domestic growers provide a superior product, I
will buy theirs. If plants from Taiwan become more expensive because
Hawaiian growers get some sort of "protection" I will still buy the plants I
want - not something inferior from a protected grower.

David


"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:3LSWc.85009$TI1.27882@attbi_s52...
I see it as protecting US small business. One of my friends has been
involved with the Taiwan side of this article and sees it as efficient
markets. If you can't compete then you should fold. Well, I always sided
with Old Fezziwig in 'A Christmas Carol' when he said it wasn't for money
alone that one builds up a business, but to protect a way of life. Of
course you know what happened to Fezziwig. Scrooge and Marley bought him
out for pennies on the dollar and put him out of business.

K Barrett
What will the next generation do with all those Harleys and RVs when we
baby
boomers are dead and gone?

David, I just look at it in terms of dollars and cents. US vendors can't
compete because the costs of labor, land, utilities, plus governmental
regulations (like being responsble for run-off from your property) make it
hard to turn a profit.. Not because they have an inferior product. I just
hate to see an industry - which some say was created by and takes full
advantage of scientific research US taxpayers paid for - going off shore.

But I also wonder about Taisuco who bought GHs here and are now - maybe? -
bypassing the US vendors by having a toe hold in the US so they won't have
to sell to your local grower. They can bring in their own orchids in
medium, in spike and sell direct. No reason for Al or Pat Brennan or any of
your local growers to be middlemen.

Am I wrong?

K Barrett

"David Edgley" wrote in message
...
Kath,

You probably don't grow hybrid Phals. The Taiwan growers seem to have the
really good stuff. Their breeding and cloning programs are providing
truly
leading edge products that don't seem to be available anywhere else.
However, I don't buy from Taiwan but from the USA growers that import
their
plants. This is a bad thing? I am constantly on the prowl (via the WWW)
for domestic growers offering stem props of their good stuff. OK, I know
that I am highly selective in what I purchase but I WILL get it from those
who can sell it to me. If domestic growers provide a superior product, I
will buy theirs. If plants from Taiwan become more expensive because
Hawaiian growers get some sort of "protection" I will still buy the plants
I
want - not something inferior from a protected grower.

David


"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:3LSWc.85009$TI1.27882@attbi_s52...
I see it as protecting US small business. One of my friends has been
involved with the Taiwan side of this article and sees it as efficient
markets. If you can't compete then you should fold. Well, I always
sided
with Old Fezziwig in 'A Christmas Carol' when he said it wasn't for
money
alone that one builds up a business, but to protect a way of life. Of
course you know what happened to Fezziwig. Scrooge and Marley bought
him
out for pennies on the dollar and put him out of business.

K Barrett
What will the next generation do with all those Harleys and RVs when we
baby
boomers are dead and gone?

David, I just look at it in terms of dollars and cents. US vendors can't
compete because the costs of labor, land, utilities, plus governmental
regulations (like being responsble for run-off from your property) make it
hard to turn a profit.. Not because they have an inferior product. I just
hate to see an industry - which some say was created by and takes full
advantage of scientific research US taxpayers paid for - going off shore.

But I also wonder about Taisuco who bought GHs here and are now - maybe? -
bypassing the US vendors by having a toe hold in the US so they won't have
to sell to your local grower. They can bring in their own orchids in
medium, in spike and sell direct. No reason for Al or Pat Brennan or any of
your local growers to be middlemen.

Am I wrong?

K Barrett

"David Edgley" wrote in message
...
Kath,

You probably don't grow hybrid Phals. The Taiwan growers seem to have the
really good stuff. Their breeding and cloning programs are providing
truly
leading edge products that don't seem to be available anywhere else.
However, I don't buy from Taiwan but from the USA growers that import
their
plants. This is a bad thing? I am constantly on the prowl (via the WWW)
for domestic growers offering stem props of their good stuff. OK, I know
that I am highly selective in what I purchase but I WILL get it from those
who can sell it to me. If domestic growers provide a superior product, I
will buy theirs. If plants from Taiwan become more expensive because
Hawaiian growers get some sort of "protection" I will still buy the plants
I
want - not something inferior from a protected grower.

David


"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:3LSWc.85009$TI1.27882@attbi_s52...
I see it as protecting US small business. One of my friends has been
involved with the Taiwan side of this article and sees it as efficient
markets. If you can't compete then you should fold. Well, I always
sided
with Old Fezziwig in 'A Christmas Carol' when he said it wasn't for
money
alone that one builds up a business, but to protect a way of life. Of
course you know what happened to Fezziwig. Scrooge and Marley bought
him
out for pennies on the dollar and put him out of business.

K Barrett
What will the next generation do with all those Harleys and RVs when we
baby
boomers are dead and gone?

Well, that last line ("Am I wrong") sounded snotty when I read it later. I
didn't mean for it to sound that way. I meant it to sound like I was asking
for your opinions.

K Barrett

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:hz6Xc.68047$mD.3084@attbi_s02...
David, I just look at it in terms of dollars and cents. US vendors can't
compete because the costs of labor, land, utilities, plus governmental
regulations (like being responsble for run-off from your property) make it
hard to turn a profit.. Not because they have an inferior product. I
just
hate to see an industry - which some say was created by and takes full
advantage of scientific research US taxpayers paid for - going off shore.

But I also wonder about Taisuco who bought GHs here and are now - maybe? -
bypassing the US vendors by having a toe hold in the US so they won't have
to sell to your local grower. They can bring in their own orchids in
medium, in spike and sell direct. No reason for Al or Pat Brennan or any
of
your local growers to be middlemen.

Am I wrong?

K Barrett

"David Edgley" wrote in message
...
Kath,

You probably don't grow hybrid Phals. The Taiwan growers seem to have
the
really good stuff. Their breeding and cloning programs are providing
truly
leading edge products that don't seem to be available anywhere else.
However, I don't buy from Taiwan but from the USA growers that import
their
plants. This is a bad thing? I am constantly on the prowl (via the
WWW)
for domestic growers offering stem props of their good stuff. OK, I
know
that I am highly selective in what I purchase but I WILL get it from
those
who can sell it to me. If domestic growers provide a superior product,
I
will buy theirs. If plants from Taiwan become more expensive because
Hawaiian growers get some sort of "protection" I will still buy the
plants
I
want - not something inferior from a protected grower.

David


"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:3LSWc.85009$TI1.27882@attbi_s52...
I see it as protecting US small business. One of my friends has been
involved with the Taiwan side of this article and sees it as efficient
markets. If you can't compete then you should fold. Well, I always
sided
with Old Fezziwig in 'A Christmas Carol' when he said it wasn't for
money
alone that one builds up a business, but to protect a way of life. Of
course you know what happened to Fezziwig. Scrooge and Marley bought
him
out for pennies on the dollar and put him out of business.

K Barrett
What will the next generation do with all those Harleys and RVs when
we
baby
boomers are dead and gone?

Well, that last line ("Am I wrong") sounded snotty when I read it later. I
didn't mean for it to sound that way. I meant it to sound like I was asking
for your opinions.

K Barrett

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:hz6Xc.68047$mD.3084@attbi_s02...
David, I just look at it in terms of dollars and cents. US vendors can't
compete because the costs of labor, land, utilities, plus governmental
regulations (like being responsble for run-off from your property) make it
hard to turn a profit.. Not because they have an inferior product. I
just
hate to see an industry - which some say was created by and takes full
advantage of scientific research US taxpayers paid for - going off shore.

But I also wonder about Taisuco who bought GHs here and are now - maybe? -
bypassing the US vendors by having a toe hold in the US so they won't have
to sell to your local grower. They can bring in their own orchids in
medium, in spike and sell direct. No reason for Al or Pat Brennan or any
of
your local growers to be middlemen.

Am I wrong?

K Barrett

"David Edgley" wrote in message
...
Kath,

You probably don't grow hybrid Phals. The Taiwan growers seem to have
the
really good stuff. Their breeding and cloning programs are providing
truly
leading edge products that don't seem to be available anywhere else.
However, I don't buy from Taiwan but from the USA growers that import
their
plants. This is a bad thing? I am constantly on the prowl (via the
WWW)
for domestic growers offering stem props of their good stuff. OK, I
know
that I am highly selective in what I purchase but I WILL get it from
those
who can sell it to me. If domestic growers provide a superior product,
I
will buy theirs. If plants from Taiwan become more expensive because
Hawaiian growers get some sort of "protection" I will still buy the
plants
I
want - not something inferior from a protected grower.

David


"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:3LSWc.85009$TI1.27882@attbi_s52...
I see it as protecting US small business. One of my friends has been
involved with the Taiwan side of this article and sees it as efficient
markets. If you can't compete then you should fold. Well, I always
sided
with Old Fezziwig in 'A Christmas Carol' when he said it wasn't for
money
alone that one builds up a business, but to protect a way of life. Of
course you know what happened to Fezziwig. Scrooge and Marley bought
him
out for pennies on the dollar and put him out of business.

K Barrett
What will the next generation do with all those Harleys and RVs when
we
baby
boomers are dead and gone?

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:41:48 GMT, "K Barrett"
wrote:

Well, that last line ("Am I wrong") sounded snotty when I read it later. I
didn't mean for it to sound that way. I meant it to sound like I was asking
for your opinions.

K Barrett


Your not wrong. But, the importers are basically the Phal
growers. The hobby is so large and the collections so diverse -
it will take a long time to hit many of us. Like Hausermann's in
the 70's they are specializing on one thing. At that time you
could walk in the gh and see bare plants unless you timed it to a
holiday. The Catts only bloomed for holiday sales. And the sales
staff had no time for hobby growers... or species. They were
known for attitude. Now there is great diversity and the corsage
orchid is only a small piece of the business.

The bugs are another issue. We just got hit with the Big Head
Carp that were imported for some misguided plan on the
Mississippi. Now they are threatening native fish in 18 states.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:41:48 GMT, "K Barrett"
wrote:

Well, that last line ("Am I wrong") sounded snotty when I read it later. I
didn't mean for it to sound that way. I meant it to sound like I was asking
for your opinions.

K Barrett


Your not wrong. But, the importers are basically the Phal
growers. The hobby is so large and the collections so diverse -
it will take a long time to hit many of us. Like Hausermann's in
the 70's they are specializing on one thing. At that time you
could walk in the gh and see bare plants unless you timed it to a
holiday. The Catts only bloomed for holiday sales. And the sales
staff had no time for hobby growers... or species. They were
known for attitude. Now there is great diversity and the corsage
orchid is only a small piece of the business.

The bugs are another issue. We just got hit with the Big Head
Carp that were imported for some misguided plan on the
Mississippi. Now they are threatening native fish in 18 states.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

Christ almighty! Big Head Carp in the greenhouse!!! Will neem oil keep
them away?

That's like our friends from the North Carolina Department of Transportation
who imported kudzu for erosion control. Now there a whole buildings all
over the southeast that will never erode - if we can find them.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:41:48 GMT, "K Barrett"
wrote:

Well, that last line ("Am I wrong") sounded snotty when I read it later.
I
didn't mean for it to sound that way. I meant it to sound like I was
asking
for your opinions.

K Barrett


Your not wrong. But, the importers are basically the Phal
growers. The hobby is so large and the collections so diverse -
it will take a long time to hit many of us. Like Hausermann's in
the 70's they are specializing on one thing. At that time you
could walk in the gh and see bare plants unless you timed it to a
holiday. The Catts only bloomed for holiday sales. And the sales
staff had no time for hobby growers... or species. They were
known for attitude. Now there is great diversity and the corsage
orchid is only a small piece of the business.

The bugs are another issue. We just got hit with the Big Head
Carp that were imported for some misguided plan on the
Mississippi. Now they are threatening native fish in 18 states.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

Christ almighty! Big Head Carp in the greenhouse!!! Will neem oil keep
them away?

That's like our friends from the North Carolina Department of Transportation
who imported kudzu for erosion control. Now there a whole buildings all
over the southeast that will never erode - if we can find them.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:41:48 GMT, "K Barrett"
wrote:

Well, that last line ("Am I wrong") sounded snotty when I read it later.
I
didn't mean for it to sound that way. I meant it to sound like I was
asking
for your opinions.

K Barrett


Your not wrong. But, the importers are basically the Phal
growers. The hobby is so large and the collections so diverse -
it will take a long time to hit many of us. Like Hausermann's in
the 70's they are specializing on one thing. At that time you
could walk in the gh and see bare plants unless you timed it to a
holiday. The Catts only bloomed for holiday sales. And the sales
staff had no time for hobby growers... or species. They were
known for attitude. Now there is great diversity and the corsage
orchid is only a small piece of the business.

The bugs are another issue. We just got hit with the Big Head
Carp that were imported for some misguided plan on the
Mississippi. Now they are threatening native fish in 18 states.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

K,

You might be wrong. I admit my view here is rather narrow and there is most
likely a larger picture that I am missing. But, I can only speak to my own
consumer activity. I buy what I like and it simply is not being produced
domestically. This means I am not a customer of the domestic growers except
as they import or create what I want. I am not doing my part to keep some
of these locals in business now and that won't change until they do.

I had not heard that Taisuco had built facilities in the US. So they are
following in the footsteps of European and Japanese auto makers. If indeed
the Taiwan growers are setting up shop in the US, they still want to sell
plants and my guess is the more the better. If local growers want to buy a
shipment in bloom to sell at shows or their showroom, it seems that Taisuco
or whomever would be more than willing to help. I guess I don't see how
selling a quality product hurts local vendors.

David

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:hz6Xc.68047$mD.3084@attbi_s02...
David, I just look at it in terms of dollars and cents. US vendors can't
compete because the costs of labor, land, utilities, plus governmental
regulations (like being responsble for run-off from your property) make it
hard to turn a profit.. Not because they have an inferior product. I
just
hate to see an industry - which some say was created by and takes full
advantage of scientific research US taxpayers paid for - going off shore.

But I also wonder about Taisuco who bought GHs here and are now - maybe? -
bypassing the US vendors by having a toe hold in the US so they won't have
to sell to your local grower. They can bring in their own orchids in
medium, in spike and sell direct. No reason for Al or Pat Brennan or any
of
your local growers to be middlemen.

Am I wrong?

K Barrett

K,

You might be wrong. I admit my view here is rather narrow and there is most
likely a larger picture that I am missing. But, I can only speak to my own
consumer activity. I buy what I like and it simply is not being produced
domestically. This means I am not a customer of the domestic growers except
as they import or create what I want. I am not doing my part to keep some
of these locals in business now and that won't change until they do.

I had not heard that Taisuco had built facilities in the US. So they are
following in the footsteps of European and Japanese auto makers. If indeed
the Taiwan growers are setting up shop in the US, they still want to sell
plants and my guess is the more the better. If local growers want to buy a
shipment in bloom to sell at shows or their showroom, it seems that Taisuco
or whomever would be more than willing to help. I guess I don't see how
selling a quality product hurts local vendors.

David

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:hz6Xc.68047$mD.3084@attbi_s02...
David, I just look at it in terms of dollars and cents. US vendors can't
compete because the costs of labor, land, utilities, plus governmental
regulations (like being responsble for run-off from your property) make it
hard to turn a profit.. Not because they have an inferior product. I
just
hate to see an industry - which some say was created by and takes full
advantage of scientific research US taxpayers paid for - going off shore.

But I also wonder about Taisuco who bought GHs here and are now - maybe? -
bypassing the US vendors by having a toe hold in the US so they won't have
to sell to your local grower. They can bring in their own orchids in
medium, in spike and sell direct. No reason for Al or Pat Brennan or any
of
your local growers to be middlemen.

Am I wrong?

K Barrett

For the purposes of this newsgroup, I have no political inclination and
would appreciate others keeping politics out of the discussion.

However, if someone were propose intelligent reform of CITES as it relates
to orchids, I would be sorely tempted to abandon my position.

David

"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
(janet_a) wrote in message
. com...
August 24, 2004
Orchids Flourish on Taiwanese Production Line
By KEITH BRADSHER



That's the way capitalism works, folks.

Free trade is the answer to everything; just ask George Bush.


J. Del Col

Well, apart from the real threat that potting medium will hold bugs - which
no doubt some sort of critter some day will come in hiding in the bark, I
was thinking of my friend who actively pursued the Taiwanese and considers
this a great thing for his side of the business. I mean, heck. If facets
of the horticultural industry themselves are happy about the advent of large
offshore GH business outproducing them, then why should I squack? I figure
there must be something that I'm not seeing about the greater economic
forces.

Talking about consumer activity, what are the off shore companies producing
that you want? ( I mean that conversationally, not as a challenge to your
taste) I like the harlequins or some of the phal species, but otherwise
I'm not a big fan of phals. I like flowers that don't hang around for
months and months. I get bored looking at them. I know, I'm weird that
way. Catts are the mass produced orchid that I like. And the Taiwanese
catts - I may be going out on a limb by actually stating an opinion, but
their catts are crap (IMHO) - they never rebloom like how they get them to
bloom at a show. So I stopped buying them because its a waste (IMHO) So
that puts me in the niche domestic market for my domestic catts and oddball
species. I buy at shows rather than catalogs or online. That way I can see
'em, LOL!

K Barrett

"David Edgley" wrote in message
...
K,

You might be wrong. I admit my view here is rather narrow and there is
most
likely a larger picture that I am missing. But, I can only speak to my
own
consumer activity. I buy what I like and it simply is not being produced
domestically. This means I am not a customer of the domestic growers
except
as they import or create what I want. I am not doing my part to keep some
of these locals in business now and that won't change until they do.

I had not heard that Taisuco had built facilities in the US. So they are
following in the footsteps of European and Japanese auto makers. If
indeed
the Taiwan growers are setting up shop in the US, they still want to sell
plants and my guess is the more the better. If local growers want to buy
a
shipment in bloom to sell at shows or their showroom, it seems that
Taisuco
or whomever would be more than willing to help. I guess I don't see how
selling a quality product hurts local vendors.

David

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:hz6Xc.68047$mD.3084@attbi_s02...
David, I just look at it in terms of dollars and cents. US vendors
can't
compete because the costs of labor, land, utilities, plus governmental
regulations (like being responsble for run-off from your property) make
it
hard to turn a profit.. Not because they have an inferior product. I
just
hate to see an industry - which some say was created by and takes full
advantage of scientific research US taxpayers paid for - going off
shore.

But I also wonder about Taisuco who bought GHs here and are now -
maybe? -
bypassing the US vendors by having a toe hold in the US so they won't
have
to sell to your local grower. They can bring in their own orchids in
medium, in spike and sell direct. No reason for Al or Pat Brennan or
any
of
your local growers to be middlemen.

Am I wrong?

K Barrett

Kathy,

If I remember some of my earlier reading correctly, the allowance is for
plants in sphagnum only. While that does not rule out the occasional hitch
hiking bug, it does make them easier to see.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:gdWXc.322929$a24.80842@attbi_s03...
Well, apart from the real threat that potting medium will hold bugs -
which
no doubt some sort of critter some day will come in hiding in the bark, I
was thinking of my friend who actively pursued the Taiwanese and considers
this a great thing for his side of the business. I mean, heck. If
facets
of the horticultural industry themselves are happy about the advent of
large
offshore GH business outproducing them, then why should I squack? I
figure
there must be something that I'm not seeing about the greater economic
forces.

Talking about consumer activity, what are the off shore companies
producing
that you want? ( I mean that conversationally, not as a challenge to your
taste) I like the harlequins or some of the phal species, but otherwise
I'm not a big fan of phals. I like flowers that don't hang around for
months and months. I get bored looking at them. I know, I'm weird that
way. Catts are the mass produced orchid that I like. And the Taiwanese
catts - I may be going out on a limb by actually stating an opinion, but
their catts are crap (IMHO) - they never rebloom like how they get them to
bloom at a show. So I stopped buying them because its a waste (IMHO) So
that puts me in the niche domestic market for my domestic catts and
oddball
species. I buy at shows rather than catalogs or online. That way I can
see
'em, LOL!

K Barrett

"David Edgley" wrote in message
...
K,

You might be wrong. I admit my view here is rather narrow and there is
most
likely a larger picture that I am missing. But, I can only speak to my
own
consumer activity. I buy what I like and it simply is not being
produced
domestically. This means I am not a customer of the domestic growers
except
as they import or create what I want. I am not doing my part to keep
some
of these locals in business now and that won't change until they do.

I had not heard that Taisuco had built facilities in the US. So they
are
following in the footsteps of European and Japanese auto makers. If
indeed
the Taiwan growers are setting up shop in the US, they still want to
sell
plants and my guess is the more the better. If local growers want to
buy
a
shipment in bloom to sell at shows or their showroom, it seems that
Taisuco
or whomever would be more than willing to help. I guess I don't see how
selling a quality product hurts local vendors.

David

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:hz6Xc.68047$mD.3084@attbi_s02...
David, I just look at it in terms of dollars and cents. US vendors
can't
compete because the costs of labor, land, utilities, plus governmental
regulations (like being responsble for run-off from your property)
make
it
hard to turn a profit.. Not because they have an inferior product. I
just
hate to see an industry - which some say was created by and takes full
advantage of scientific research US taxpayers paid for - going off
shore.

But I also wonder about Taisuco who bought GHs here and are now -
maybe? -
bypassing the US vendors by having a toe hold in the US so they won't
have
to sell to your local grower. They can bring in their own orchids in
medium, in spike and sell direct. No reason for Al or Pat Brennan or
any
of
your local growers to be middlemen.

Am I wrong?

K Barrett

Really? Easier to see in sphagnum? I wouldn't think so, but hey. What do
I know?

K Barrett

"Ray" wrote in message
...
Kathy,

If I remember some of my earlier reading correctly, the allowance is for
plants in sphagnum only. While that does not rule out the occasional
hitch
hiking bug, it does make them easier to see.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
.
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:gdWXc.322929$a24.80842@attbi_s03...
Well, apart from the real threat that potting medium will hold bugs -
which
no doubt some sort of critter some day will come in hiding in the bark

My interest is only Phal / Dtps. And the offshore breeders / growers are
producing a rainbow of opportunities for me. Harlequins, yes - and have you
seen some of the 4th+ generation Golden Peoker hybrids? Incredible! Also
whites, pinks, yellows, minis, spots, stripes, magenta with stripes (Taisuco
Firebird), yellow with stripes, minis with stripes, yellow minis, blush
minis, white minis, spots & stripes together (Leopard Prince), etc. Phal
types are 98%+ of what I grow and I enjoy their bloom longevity! I never
get tired of looking at Dtps Ever Spring Prince 'Harlequin' where every
flower is different! Can't abide Catt types although I have a couple. Also
have a few good Paphs whose divisions help support my Phal habit. So, I
guess we have differing niches and mine is more than adequately covered by
the Taiwan growers and anyone else who sells top quality Phals! I have
purchased non-Taiwan plants from growers in CA, TX, FL, IL, NY, WA, and
probably more that elude me right now. I vote with my $$$.

David
on beautiful Whidbey Island

Thanks for the engaging thread. I appreciate and respect the way you
"speak" your mind and challenge others to do the same.

I wouldn't mind having plants imported bare root and potted up here. The
thought of new pests is troubling indeed.

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:gdWXc.322929$a24.80842@attbi_s03...

Talking about consumer activity, what are the off shore companies
producing
that you want? ( I mean that conversationally, not as a challenge to your
taste) I like the harlequins or some of the phal species, but otherwise
I'm not a big fan of phals. I like flowers that don't hang around for
months and months. I get bored looking at them. I know, I'm weird that
way. Catts are the mass produced orchid that I like. And the Taiwanese
catts - I may be going out on a limb by actually stating an opinion, but
their catts are crap (IMHO) - they never rebloom like how they get them to
bloom at a show. So I stopped buying them because its a waste (IMHO) So
that puts me in the niche domestic market for my domestic catts and
oddball
species. I buy at shows rather than catalogs or online. That way I can
see
'em, LOL!

"David Edgley" wrote in message ...
For the purposes of this newsgroup, I have no political inclination and
would appreciate others keeping politics out of the discussion.


All trade issues are inherently political.

If the Taiwanese can sell better plants at cheaper prices, they win.
That's the way global free trade capitalism works.

If the Hawaiian growers were upfront about it, they'd call for
protection on strictly economic grounds. Right now they sound like
the Japanese rice growers who tried to keep American rice off the
Japanese market on the grounds that it was dirty, when in truth they
just wanted to maintain their domestic monopoly on rice.

The Hawaiians are right; the Taiwanese will almost certainly usurp
their market. The way the WTO rules work, just about the only recourse
the Haiwaiians have is to show that the Taiwanese are dumping orchids
on the market for less than it costs to grow them.

We don't have to go along with the WTO, but we do for various domestic
political purposes.


J. Del Col

Hi Group;

Just our long winded 2 cents worth.

I had not heard that Taisuco had built facilities in the US

Yes and here in Fl, we also have several South Korean, one Dutch, one English,
several Thai, two Venezulean, three Japanese, one Brazilian and several
Taiwanese companies. I'm sure there are several more that we just haven't found
yet. Most are located in and around Apopoka, FL. (near Orlando) and Homestead
(Miami). Several have been here over five years, and are now supplying most of
the Big Box Orchid markets, through their own marketing companies or to
American middle men. Primary products are Phal. hybrids, Oncidium Alliance,
Cattleya, and Dendrobium hybrids. Last year some of these companies started
bringing in standard Cymbidiums. The Dutch, Japanese, Venezulean are new state
of the art. The others are converted from long standing foliage growing
operations.

The above is for Florida, someone from California, Hawaii, and Arizona can
advise about the "new" facilities in those states. We are having enough trouble
keeping up with the new ones in FL. LOL. All of these facilities have been in
the USA for many years, the NY Times is evidently just now finding out about
them.

Interestingly, the Hawaiian Growers are the most upset, but according to the
2003 USDA Plant survey, Hawaii ranks 18th in potted orchid sales, well below
Calif (#1) and FL (#2), but the Hawaiian import nearly 50% of the plants they
use for potted plant sales. So they stand to lose a chunk of their income.

Actually, the orchid hobbyists are not the "force" behind the Orchid explosion.
It is the floral, interior design businesses and the casual plant buyers which
are feeding the "orchid craze" (Buy it and Throw it away mentality). The
hobbyist is just the beneficiary of this current fad.

As a sign of the times, two years ago Karen and I were visiting one of the
Korean establishments in Apopka. About ten acres under cover, with no less than
100K pots in full bloom, with just as many more in bud. Incredible sight. We
were back several months later, and many of the plants were still there, albeit
out of bloom. This year, we noticed some of the Phal space had been turned
over to lucky bamboo, Ti plants, and money trees. Plus the owner was out on the
plant sale circuit, around Florida, peddling his Phals. (Two spikes 20+
flowers, 2 for $15.00 retail). The "boom" may be off the Phal. market. IMHO,
the potted dendrobium market is the next to get "depressed", one of the
Japanese FL operations has two locations, with ten and seventeen acres under
cover, currently producing so many plants, they cannot sell them all.

If I remember some of my earlier reading correctly, the allowance is for
plants in sphagnum only.

Currently orchid plants can be imported bare root, attached to or in tree fern
fiber, or coconut fiber or husk.

I think the approval, which Taiwan, and now the Dutch, are seeking, covers
"approved growing media" as defined in 7CFR 319.37-8(e)(1) " Approved growing
media are baked expanded clay pellets, coal cinder, coir, cork, glass wool,
organic and inorganic fibers, peat, perlite, phenol formaldehyde, plastic
particles, polyethylene, polymer stabilized starch, polystyrene, polyurethane,
rock wool, sphagnum moss,
ureaformaldehyde, stockosorb superabsorbent polymer, vermiculite, volcanic
rock, or zeolite, or any combination of these media. Growing
media must not have been previously used."
At least their initial petitions and subsequent USDA Final Environmental
Assessment in December, 2003 was for "approved media". The FEA did not
differinate between medias. Actually, I don't think the USDA can differiate,
because of the previous approval of allowing other genera, such as gloxnia and
begonias, in pots, with "approved media".


Just the tip of the iceberg

Jerry

a href="http://www.clanorchids.com/"Camp Lot A Noise Tropicals (C. L. A.
N.)/a http://www.clanorchids.com/
Orchid Species, Hybrids, Supplies, Photos and Books
Chat (941) 352-2483 Fax: (941) 351-2483 X 123 Order Only 1-800-351-CITE

A clean point, thank you. Had you explained it this way the first time
instead of making what appeared to me to be a snide jab at a particular
person, I would not have objected. Politicians from both parties can be
found to support free trade as well as protectionism. Politics makes
strange bedfellows.

David

"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
All trade issues are inherently political.

If the Taiwanese can sell better plants at cheaper prices, they win.
That's the way global free trade capitalism works.

If the Hawaiian growers were upfront about it, they'd call for
protection on strictly economic grounds. Right now they sound like
the Japanese rice growers who tried to keep American rice off the
Japanese market on the grounds that it was dirty, when in truth they
just wanted to maintain their domestic monopoly on rice.

The Hawaiians are right; the Taiwanese will almost certainly usurp
their market. The way the WTO rules work, just about the only recourse
the Haiwaiians have is to show that the Taiwanese are dumping orchids
on the market for less than it costs to grow them.

We don't have to go along with the WTO, but we do for various domestic
political purposes.


J. Del Col

A clean point, thank you. Had you explained it this way the first time
instead of making what appeared to me to be a snide jab at a particular
person, I would not have objected. Politicians from both parties can be
found to support free trade as well as protectionism. Politics makes
strange bedfellows.

David

"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
All trade issues are inherently political.

If the Taiwanese can sell better plants at cheaper prices, they win.
That's the way global free trade capitalism works.

If the Hawaiian growers were upfront about it, they'd call for
protection on strictly economic grounds. Right now they sound like
the Japanese rice growers who tried to keep American rice off the
Japanese market on the grounds that it was dirty, when in truth they
just wanted to maintain their domestic monopoly on rice.

The Hawaiians are right; the Taiwanese will almost certainly usurp
their market. The way the WTO rules work, just about the only recourse
the Haiwaiians have is to show that the Taiwanese are dumping orchids
on the market for less than it costs to grow them.

We don't have to go along with the WTO, but we do for various domestic
political purposes.


J. Del Col

Kathy,

I suspect it's the light color and relative ease of removal that makes
critter observation "easier"...

Personally, I don't like the idea - too risky. Granted, the Taiwanese
orchid nurseries are kept meticulously clean, but neither they nor the
shipping containers are hermetically sealed, so the risk is still there.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:lQ1Yc.84402$mD.61372@attbi_s02...
Really? Easier to see in sphagnum? I wouldn't think so, but hey. What
do
I know?

K Barrett

"Ray" wrote in message
...
Kathy,

If I remember some of my earlier reading correctly, the allowance is for
plants in sphagnum only. While that does not rule out the occasional
hitch
hiking bug, it does make them easier to see.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
.
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:gdWXc.322929$a24.80842@attbi_s03...
Well, apart from the real threat that potting medium will hold bugs -
which
no doubt some sort of critter some day will come in hiding in the bark

Kathy,

I suspect it's the light color and relative ease of removal that makes
critter observation "easier"...

Personally, I don't like the idea - too risky. Granted, the Taiwanese
orchid nurseries are kept meticulously clean, but neither they nor the
shipping containers are hermetically sealed, so the risk is still there.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:lQ1Yc.84402$mD.61372@attbi_s02...
Really? Easier to see in sphagnum? I wouldn't think so, but hey. What
do
I know?

K Barrett

"Ray" wrote in message
...
Kathy,

If I remember some of my earlier reading correctly, the allowance is for
plants in sphagnum only. While that does not rule out the occasional
hitch
hiking bug, it does make them easier to see.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
.
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:gdWXc.322929$a24.80842@attbi_s03...
Well, apart from the real threat that potting medium will hold bugs -
which
no doubt some sort of critter some day will come in hiding in the bark

It is naive to think you can talk about this subject without politics. And
do not talk to me about strange bed fellows, the current administration is
calling the shots backed by a congress controlled by his party. The head of
the Dept of Ag is a member of the administration's cabinet. Those are
simple facts.

It is also naive to think that allowing the importation of in pot plants
happens in a vacuum. Trade arrangements are made. 'You allow in pot
plants, we back off steel restrictions.' We do not see the deals, just the
results.

As for level playing field, the world is not flat. Government paid
construction costs and training, government sponsored low interest loans,
and tax free periods all put bumps (and mountains) on the field. As most of
these imported plants will be shipped on government owned airlines, it is
not really even a single playing field. I expect moving $2B worth of in pot
orchids means an annual $400M business for the exporting countries'
national airlines. The Dutch have never consider the field level because US
growers do not pay the same taxes on heating oil as charged on diesel fuel.
I have heard the Canadian government subsidizes natural gas for their
growers. It goes on and on.

As for Taiwanese plants, I would not get too attached to them. I expect
Taiwan's reign on the top will be a short one. The Taiwanese government is
not the only government getting into the game. The Chinese government has
also made a commitment to orchids and plants are already starting to flow
out of that pipe line. I recently got an merriclone offering from the main
land which undercut Taiwan prices by a larger percent than Taiwan undercut
domestic prices. Labor in Taiwan is $600 a month while in China it is more
like $100 a month. As for China, they would do best to watch their backs.
Labor in Vietnam is more like $30 a month and I expect they will be playing
a larger role in the game over the next few years. I do not know Thailand's
wage structure, but it seems that they are also about to get in the game in
a big way as well.











"David Edgley" wrote in message
...
For the purposes of this newsgroup, I have no political inclination and
would appreciate others keeping politics out of the discussion.

However, if someone were propose intelligent reform of CITES as it relates
to orchids, I would be sorely tempted to abandon my position.

David

"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
(janet_a) wrote in message
. com...
August 24, 2004
Orchids Flourish on Taiwanese Production Line
By KEITH BRADSHER



That's the way capitalism works, folks.

Free trade is the answer to everything; just ask George Bush.


J. Del Col

It is naive to think you can talk about this subject without politics. And
do not talk to me about strange bed fellows, the current administration is
calling the shots backed by a congress controlled by his party. The head of
the Dept of Ag is a member of the administration's cabinet. Those are
simple facts.

It is also naive to think that allowing the importation of in pot plants
happens in a vacuum. Trade arrangements are made. 'You allow in pot
plants, we back off steel restrictions.' We do not see the deals, just the
results.

As for level playing field, the world is not flat. Government paid
construction costs and training, government sponsored low interest loans,
and tax free periods all put bumps (and mountains) on the field. As most of
these imported plants will be shipped on government owned airlines, it is
not really even a single playing field. I expect moving $2B worth of in pot
orchids means an annual $400M business for the exporting countries'
national airlines. The Dutch have never consider the field level because US
growers do not pay the same taxes on heating oil as charged on diesel fuel.
I have heard the Canadian government subsidizes natural gas for their
growers. It goes on and on.

As for Taiwanese plants, I would not get too attached to them. I expect
Taiwan's reign on the top will be a short one. The Taiwanese government is
not the only government getting into the game. The Chinese government has
also made a commitment to orchids and plants are already starting to flow
out of that pipe line. I recently got an merriclone offering from the main
land which undercut Taiwan prices by a larger percent than Taiwan undercut
domestic prices. Labor in Taiwan is $600 a month while in China it is more
like $100 a month. As for China, they would do best to watch their backs.
Labor in Vietnam is more like $30 a month and I expect they will be playing
a larger role in the game over the next few years. I do not know Thailand's
wage structure, but it seems that they are also about to get in the game in
a big way as well.











"David Edgley" wrote in message
...
For the purposes of this newsgroup, I have no political inclination and
would appreciate others keeping politics out of the discussion.

However, if someone were propose intelligent reform of CITES as it relates
to orchids, I would be sorely tempted to abandon my position.

David

"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
(janet_a) wrote in message
. com...
August 24, 2004
Orchids Flourish on Taiwanese Production Line
By KEITH BRADSHER



That's the way capitalism works, folks.

Free trade is the answer to everything; just ask George Bush.


J. Del Col

The point about trade not happening in a vaccuum is a good one. I'm sure
something along the lines of mutual rubbing of backs occurred.

I can't see where bringing in already potted plants makes economic sense.
They are so huge and bulky. You get so many more of them in a flask in a
much smaller space, no? Does it really cost so much more to finish them
here?

*G* Well I guess it must, else this wouldn't be happening! LOL!

K Barrett

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
It is naive to think you can talk about this subject without politics.
And
do not talk to me about strange bed fellows, the current administration is
calling the shots backed by a congress controlled by his party. The head
of
the Dept of Ag is a member of the administration's cabinet. Those are
simple facts.

It is also naive to think that allowing the importation of in pot plants
happens in a vacuum. Trade arrangements are made. 'You allow in pot
plants, we back off steel restrictions.' We do not see the deals, just
the
results.

As for level playing field, the world is not flat. Government paid
construction costs and training, government sponsored low interest loans,
and tax free periods all put bumps (and mountains) on the field. As most
of
these imported plants will be shipped on government owned airlines, it is
not really even a single playing field. I expect moving $2B worth of in
pot
orchids means an annual $400M business for the exporting countries'
national airlines. The Dutch have never consider the field level because
US
growers do not pay the same taxes on heating oil as charged on diesel
fuel.
I have heard the Canadian government subsidizes natural gas for their
growers. It goes on and on.

As for Taiwanese plants, I would not get too attached to them. I expect
Taiwan's reign on the top will be a short one. The Taiwanese government
is
not the only government getting into the game. The Chinese government has
also made a commitment to orchids and plants are already starting to flow
out of that pipe line. I recently got an merriclone offering from the
main
land which undercut Taiwan prices by a larger percent than Taiwan undercut
domestic prices. Labor in Taiwan is $600 a month while in China it is
more
like $100 a month. As for China, they would do best to watch their backs.
Labor in Vietnam is more like $30 a month and I expect they will be
playing
a larger role in the game over the next few years. I do not know
Thailand's
wage structure, but it seems that they are also about to get in the game
in
a big way as well.











"David Edgley" wrote in message
...
For the purposes of this newsgroup, I have no political inclination and
would appreciate others keeping politics out of the discussion.

However, if someone were propose intelligent reform of CITES as it
relates
to orchids, I would be sorely tempted to abandon my position.

David

"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
(janet_a) wrote in message
. com...
August 24, 2004
Orchids Flourish on Taiwanese Production Line
By KEITH BRADSHER



That's the way capitalism works, folks.

Free trade is the answer to everything; just ask George Bush.


J. Del Col

The point about trade not happening in a vaccuum is a good one. I'm sure
something along the lines of mutual rubbing of backs occurred.

I can't see where bringing in already potted plants makes economic sense.
They are so huge and bulky. You get so many more of them in a flask in a
much smaller space, no? Does it really cost so much more to finish them
here?

*G* Well I guess it must, else this wouldn't be happening! LOL!

K Barrett

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
It is naive to think you can talk about this subject without politics.
And
do not talk to me about strange bed fellows, the current administration is
calling the shots backed by a congress controlled by his party. The head
of
the Dept of Ag is a member of the administration's cabinet. Those are
simple facts.

It is also naive to think that allowing the importation of in pot plants
happens in a vacuum. Trade arrangements are made. 'You allow in pot
plants, we back off steel restrictions.' We do not see the deals, just
the
results.

As for level playing field, the world is not flat. Government paid
construction costs and training, government sponsored low interest loans,
and tax free periods all put bumps (and mountains) on the field. As most
of
these imported plants will be shipped on government owned airlines, it is
not really even a single playing field. I expect moving $2B worth of in
pot
orchids means an annual $400M business for the exporting countries'
national airlines. The Dutch have never consider the field level because
US
growers do not pay the same taxes on heating oil as charged on diesel
fuel.
I have heard the Canadian government subsidizes natural gas for their
growers. It goes on and on.

As for Taiwanese plants, I would not get too attached to them. I expect
Taiwan's reign on the top will be a short one. The Taiwanese government
is
not the only government getting into the game. The Chinese government has
also made a commitment to orchids and plants are already starting to flow
out of that pipe line. I recently got an merriclone offering from the
main
land which undercut Taiwan prices by a larger percent than Taiwan undercut
domestic prices. Labor in Taiwan is $600 a month while in China it is
more
like $100 a month. As for China, they would do best to watch their backs.
Labor in Vietnam is more like $30 a month and I expect they will be
playing
a larger role in the game over the next few years. I do not know
Thailand's
wage structure, but it seems that they are also about to get in the game
in
a big way as well.











"David Edgley" wrote in message
...
For the purposes of this newsgroup, I have no political inclination and
would appreciate others keeping politics out of the discussion.

However, if someone were propose intelligent reform of CITES as it
relates
to orchids, I would be sorely tempted to abandon my position.

David

"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
(janet_a) wrote in message
. com...
August 24, 2004
Orchids Flourish on Taiwanese Production Line
By KEITH BRADSHER



That's the way capitalism works, folks.

Free trade is the answer to everything; just ask George Bush.


J. Del Col

Thanks Jerry

K Barrett

"Clanorchid" wrote in message
...
Hi Group;

Just our long winded 2 cents worth.

I had not heard that Taisuco had built facilities in the US

Yes and here in Fl, we also have several South Korean, one Dutch, one
English,
several Thai, two Venezulean, three Japanese, one Brazilian and several
Taiwanese companies. I'm sure there are several more that we just haven't
found
yet. Most are located in and around Apopoka, FL. (near Orlando) and
Homestead
(Miami). Several have been here over five years, and are now supplying
most of
the Big Box Orchid markets, through their own marketing companies or to
American middle men. Primary products are Phal. hybrids, Oncidium
Alliance,
Cattleya, and Dendrobium hybrids. Last year some of these companies
started
bringing in standard Cymbidiums. The Dutch, Japanese, Venezulean are new
state
of the art. The others are converted from long standing foliage growing
operations.

The above is for Florida, someone from California, Hawaii, and Arizona can
advise about the "new" facilities in those states. We are having enough
trouble
keeping up with the new ones in FL. LOL. All of these facilities have been
in
the USA for many years, the NY Times is evidently just now finding out
about
them.

Interestingly, the Hawaiian Growers are the most upset, but according to
the
2003 USDA Plant survey, Hawaii ranks 18th in potted orchid sales, well
below
Calif (#1) and FL (#2), but the Hawaiian import nearly 50% of the plants
they
use for potted plant sales. So they stand to lose a chunk of their income.

Actually, the orchid hobbyists are not the "force" behind the Orchid
explosion.
It is the floral, interior design businesses and the casual plant buyers
which
are feeding the "orchid craze" (Buy it and Throw it away mentality). The
hobbyist is just the beneficiary of this current fad.

As a sign of the times, two years ago Karen and I were visiting one of the
Korean establishments in Apopka. About ten acres under cover, with no less
than
100K pots in full bloom, with just as many more in bud. Incredible sight.
We
were back several months later, and many of the plants were still there,
albeit
out of bloom. This year, we noticed some of the Phal space had been
turned
over to lucky bamboo, Ti plants, and money trees. Plus the owner was out
on the
plant sale circuit, around Florida, peddling his Phals. (Two spikes 20+
flowers, 2 for $15.00 retail). The "boom" may be off the Phal. market.
IMHO,
the potted dendrobium market is the next to get "depressed", one of the
Japanese FL operations has two locations, with ten and seventeen acres
under
cover, currently producing so many plants, they cannot sell them all.

If I remember some of my earlier reading correctly, the allowance is for
plants in sphagnum only.

Currently orchid plants can be imported bare root, attached to or in tree
fern
fiber, or coconut fiber or husk.

I think the approval, which Taiwan, and now the Dutch, are seeking, covers
"approved growing media" as defined in 7CFR 319.37-8(e)(1) " Approved
growing
media are baked expanded clay pellets, coal cinder, coir, cork, glass
wool,
organic and inorganic fibers, peat, perlite, phenol formaldehyde, plastic
particles, polyethylene, polymer stabilized starch, polystyrene,
polyurethane,
rock wool, sphagnum moss,
ureaformaldehyde, stockosorb superabsorbent polymer, vermiculite, volcanic
rock, or zeolite, or any combination of these media. Growing
media must not have been previously used."
At least their initial petitions and subsequent USDA Final Environmental
Assessment in December, 2003 was for "approved media". The FEA did not
differinate between medias. Actually, I don't think the USDA can
differiate,
because of the previous approval of allowing other genera, such as gloxnia
and
begonias, in pots, with "approved media".


Just the tip of the iceberg

Jerry

a href="http://www.clanorchids.com/"Camp Lot A Noise Tropicals (C. L. A.
N.)/a http://www.clanorchids.com/
Orchid Species, Hybrids, Supplies, Photos and Books
Chat (941) 352-2483 Fax: (941) 351-2483 X 123 Order Only 1-800-351-CITE

Thanks Jerry

K Barrett

"Clanorchid" wrote in message
...
Hi Group;

Just our long winded 2 cents worth.

I had not heard that Taisuco had built facilities in the US

Yes and here in Fl, we also have several South Korean, one Dutch, one
English,
several Thai, two Venezulean, three Japanese, one Brazilian and several
Taiwanese companies. I'm sure there are several more that we just haven't
found
yet. Most are located in and around Apopoka, FL. (near Orlando) and
Homestead
(Miami). Several have been here over five years, and are now supplying
most of
the Big Box Orchid markets, through their own marketing companies or to
American middle men. Primary products are Phal. hybrids, Oncidium
Alliance,
Cattleya, and Dendrobium hybrids. Last year some of these companies
started
bringing in standard Cymbidiums. The Dutch, Japanese, Venezulean are new
state
of the art. The others are converted from long standing foliage growing
operations.

The above is for Florida, someone from California, Hawaii, and Arizona can
advise about the "new" facilities in those states. We are having enough
trouble
keeping up with the new ones in FL. LOL. All of these facilities have been
in
the USA for many years, the NY Times is evidently just now finding out
about
them.

Interestingly, the Hawaiian Growers are the most upset, but according to
the
2003 USDA Plant survey, Hawaii ranks 18th in potted orchid sales, well
below
Calif (#1) and FL (#2), but the Hawaiian import nearly 50% of the plants
they
use for potted plant sales. So they stand to lose a chunk of their income.

Actually, the orchid hobbyists are not the "force" behind the Orchid
explosion.
It is the floral, interior design businesses and the casual plant buyers
which
are feeding the "orchid craze" (Buy it and Throw it away mentality). The
hobbyist is just the beneficiary of this current fad.

As a sign of the times, two years ago Karen and I were visiting one of the
Korean establishments in Apopka. About ten acres under cover, with no less
than
100K pots in full bloom, with just as many more in bud. Incredible sight.
We
were back several months later, and many of the plants were still there,
albeit
out of bloom. This year, we noticed some of the Phal space had been
turned
over to lucky bamboo, Ti plants, and money trees. Plus the owner was out
on the
plant sale circuit, around Florida, peddling his Phals. (Two spikes 20+
flowers, 2 for $15.00 retail). The "boom" may be off the Phal. market.
IMHO,
the potted dendrobium market is the next to get "depressed", one of the
Japanese FL operations has two locations, with ten and seventeen acres
under
cover, currently producing so many plants, they cannot sell them all.

If I remember some of my earlier reading correctly, the allowance is for
plants in sphagnum only.

Currently orchid plants can be imported bare root, attached to or in tree
fern
fiber, or coconut fiber or husk.

I think the approval, which Taiwan, and now the Dutch, are seeking, covers
"approved growing media" as defined in 7CFR 319.37-8(e)(1) " Approved
growing
media are baked expanded clay pellets, coal cinder, coir, cork, glass
wool,
organic and inorganic fibers, peat, perlite, phenol formaldehyde, plastic
particles, polyethylene, polymer stabilized starch, polystyrene,
polyurethane,
rock wool, sphagnum moss,
ureaformaldehyde, stockosorb superabsorbent polymer, vermiculite, volcanic
rock, or zeolite, or any combination of these media. Growing
media must not have been previously used."
At least their initial petitions and subsequent USDA Final Environmental
Assessment in December, 2003 was for "approved media". The FEA did not
differinate between medias. Actually, I don't think the USDA can
differiate,
because of the previous approval of allowing other genera, such as gloxnia
and
begonias, in pots, with "approved media".


Just the tip of the iceberg

Jerry

a href="http://www.clanorchids.com/"Camp Lot A Noise Tropicals (C. L. A.
N.)/a http://www.clanorchids.com/
Orchid Species, Hybrids, Supplies, Photos and Books
Chat (941) 352-2483 Fax: (941) 351-2483 X 123 Order Only 1-800-351-CITE

Thanks Jerry

K Barrett

"Clanorchid" wrote in message
...
Hi Group;

Just our long winded 2 cents worth.

I had not heard that Taisuco had built facilities in the US

Yes and here in Fl, we also have several South Korean, one Dutch, one
English,
several Thai, two Venezulean, three Japanese, one Brazilian and several
Taiwanese companies. I'm sure there are several more that we just haven't
found
yet. Most are located in and around Apopoka, FL. (near Orlando) and
Homestead
(Miami). Several have been here over five years, and are now supplying
most of
the Big Box Orchid markets, through their own marketing companies or to
American middle men. Primary products are Phal. hybrids, Oncidium
Alliance,
Cattleya, and Dendrobium hybrids. Last year some of these companies
started
bringing in standard Cymbidiums. The Dutch, Japanese, Venezulean are new
state
of the art. The others are converted from long standing foliage growing
operations.

The above is for Florida, someone from California, Hawaii, and Arizona can
advise about the "new" facilities in those states. We are having enough
trouble
keeping up with the new ones in FL. LOL. All of these facilities have been
in
the USA for many years, the NY Times is evidently just now finding out
about
them.

Interestingly, the Hawaiian Growers are the most upset, but according to
the
2003 USDA Plant survey, Hawaii ranks 18th in potted orchid sales, well
below
Calif (#1) and FL (#2), but the Hawaiian import nearly 50% of the plants
they
use for potted plant sales. So they stand to lose a chunk of their income.

Actually, the orchid hobbyists are not the "force" behind the Orchid
explosion.
It is the floral, interior design businesses and the casual plant buyers
which
are feeding the "orchid craze" (Buy it and Throw it away mentality). The
hobbyist is just the beneficiary of this current fad.

As a sign of the times, two years ago Karen and I were visiting one of the
Korean establishments in Apopka. About ten acres under cover, with no less
than
100K pots in full bloom, with just as many more in bud. Incredible sight.
We
were back several months later, and many of the plants were still there,
albeit
out of bloom. This year, we noticed some of the Phal space had been
turned
over to lucky bamboo, Ti plants, and money trees. Plus the owner was out
on the
plant sale circuit, around Florida, peddling his Phals. (Two spikes 20+
flowers, 2 for $15.00 retail). The "boom" may be off the Phal. market.
IMHO,
the potted dendrobium market is the next to get "depressed", one of the
Japanese FL operations has two locations, with ten and seventeen acres
under
cover, currently producing so many plants, they cannot sell them all.

If I remember some of my earlier reading correctly, the allowance is for
plants in sphagnum only.

Currently orchid plants can be imported bare root, attached to or in tree
fern
fiber, or coconut fiber or husk.

I think the approval, which Taiwan, and now the Dutch, are seeking, covers
"approved growing media" as defined in 7CFR 319.37-8(e)(1) " Approved
growing
media are baked expanded clay pellets, coal cinder, coir, cork, glass
wool,
organic and inorganic fibers, peat, perlite, phenol formaldehyde, plastic
particles, polyethylene, polymer stabilized starch, polystyrene,
polyurethane,
rock wool, sphagnum moss,
ureaformaldehyde, stockosorb superabsorbent polymer, vermiculite, volcanic
rock, or zeolite, or any combination of these media. Growing
media must not have been previously used."
At least their initial petitions and subsequent USDA Final Environmental
Assessment in December, 2003 was for "approved media". The FEA did not
differinate between medias. Actually, I don't think the USDA can
differiate,
because of the previous approval of allowing other genera, such as gloxnia
and
begonias, in pots, with "approved media".


Just the tip of the iceberg

Jerry

a href="http://www.clanorchids.com/"Camp Lot A Noise Tropicals (C. L. A.
N.)/a http://www.clanorchids.com/
Orchid Species, Hybrids, Supplies, Photos and Books
Chat (941) 352-2483 Fax: (941) 351-2483 X 123 Order Only 1-800-351-CITE

I brought back a couple of hundred phals last fall in spike on the plane from Taiwan with me, not much luggage, no bugs and have done well.

Hi Group,

Just another observation, the NY Times article indicates change is being
considered. Actually, the change is effective and in place, since June 6, 2004.


I can't see where bringing in already potted plants makes economic sense.
They are so huge and bulky. You get so many more of them in a flask in a
much smaller space, no? Does it really cost so much more to finish them
here?

I wouldn't mind having plants imported bare root and potted up here.

That was the method. All imported orchid plants were brought in bare root,
repotted in approved media, and grown in US of A for four months prior to sale,
then inspected. (Except for importations in coconut chips or coir, and attached
to tree fern) It is a time and money factor.

Import an in bloom plant and you save labor (unpotting and repotting),
greenhouse space (in front door, out the back door to the contract stores). The
four month in US of A growing period and inspection also disappears, as well as
losses due to cultural problems.

A flask, yes has many plants, but growing time is required. IMHO, the plus is
the plants, from the flasks, may adapt better to US of A conditions, than a
blooming plant.

This not new Q37, as the rules are commonly known, has been under attack for
many years. Currently there are a number genera of plants, for which Q37 has
been suspended. Quick to mind is Begonias, African Violets, Peperomia, some
ferns. There are others, but I forget them now. The authority for some of these
exemptions dates back to 1990, or earlier. Heck the exemption petition from
Taiwan was in 1997.

The USDA documents regarding Q37 being suspended are interesting. Dating back
to 1998, USDA indicates there are 41 Phal growers in CA, 41 Phal growers in FL,
and 101 Phal growers in the other 48 states, and economic impact on these
growers is unknown, but expected to substantial. However, they do note that
Hawaii is the leading importer of bare root Phals, for potted plant sales.

For some reason the Phal Q37 pages on USDA and APHIS websites have gone down
today. Orchidists must be getting interested.

Cheers,

Jerry and Karen

Camp Lot A Noise Tropicals (C. L. A. N.) http://www.clanorchids.com
Orchid Species, Hybrids, Supplies, Photos and Books
Chat (941) 352-2483 Fax: (941) 351-2483 X 123 Order Only 1-800-351-CITE