Organic does not mean pesticide free...
 

"Sirius631" wrote in message
...
Sounds like raised beds would be the best bet. That is is what I'm using.
I
can't keep all the soil moist all the time with my rain water storage and
supply capacity. I do need to expand this, but finances might soon dictate
that
I sould have held on to the cash. I can take solice in the fact that
sparrows,
which have been suffering a big dip in numbers, will invade in hoards to
take a
dust bath when the soil gets to that hydrophobic state.

Yes indeedy raised beds are definately the go ... a few years ago I had some
commercial worm beds which have been turned into garden beds and although
the pure worm castings are not IMO good growing medium when they were
spread into the surrounding area they improved the soil to a stage where it
supports growth all year even through the dryest times ... only grasses a
few trees and a rather unruly raspberry bush at the moment ... but the worms
are still there and have spread also ... so the whole area is slightly
raised (but was already in a higher spot) and the difference in soil
texture, organic material and water holding capacity is nothing short of a
miracle.

I've used old cut down water tanks as big plant pots (5 feet across and
about 2.5 feet deep) for Herbs and things like Mint and self setting plants
like Garlic chives etc ... things that would get out of control or be hard
to contain in a normal garden bed .. again the lack of rain is a prob and
the hot sun on the tin water tanks doesnt help but having a real depth of
workable soil is a real bonus.

I understand the lack of finances ... dont we all? ... ya just have to do
what you can when ya can .. I'll never get this place as I want it even if I
live to be a hundred, but its kinda fun (sometimes) trying.

Dont get too sunburnt

Pete





David Lloyd
So open-minded - my brains dribbled out.

Organic does not mean pesticide free...
 

g'day pete,

who's looking for david i was thinking more along the lines o delilah
heh chuckle

yep that's me mate but you will still be able to chat and i hope you
do i very much enjoyed our banta in the earlier days.

it will ahve to be back to the big smoke and i will be lucky if it is
on 30 perches.

boy that is dear for seedling the most we pay is 2.80 or 3 bucks not
sure, garlic could be a good little home garden cash crop for the
organic growers or home growers as in this neck of the woods south
east qld the home grown stuff that will grow is scarcer then the
proverbial hens teeth.

i'm also amassing varieties of perpetual types of onion faimilies
onions now at around 4 bucks a kilo and rising just like gold prices
homegardeners are going to be looking for something perpetual. and
realy for most they could grow these things for all their cullenary
uses in such a little space.

we've had 3 solid bites since i put it on line on wednesday night.

keep the chat coming yo can always revert to e/mail.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

Organic does not mean pesticide free...
 

"Gordon Couger" wrote in message
news:acexc.11087$1L4.5742@okepread02...

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger writes

Do the conventional plots rotate the same as organic plots, are they
in
continues wheat or some other rotation.

Both are first wheats after break. The organic rotations have far more
breaks than the arable ones.

The largest loss in organic
agriculture is the years that the land is in low production rotations
that produce low value or no value crops.

Of course. Some of these are complete losses being, in effect, cover
crops. Red clover is a typical one, with herbiage all ploughed under, in
all-arable organic rotations.

Then for a true picture the total yield in some unit, dollar or pounds
sterling per acre in total yield of wheat, feed, fiber meat and what ever
should be totaled up and divided by the number of years in the study
giving
true value of the output of an organic farming operation per unit area
compared to a conventional or modern farm. Showing how much far they are
really behind modern methods. With total production nearer 25% or less
that
of a modern farm ran in an intensive operation.

Gordon

Hey Gord, don't forget to factor in the carcinogen and neurotoxin
levels/acre. In that your methodology is way ahead. How's your blood,
anyways? The last farmer I worked for couldn't walk 100 yards because his
blood no longer carries oxygen, thanks to the pesticides he worked with his
whole life. The good news for progressive thinkers, and you're not one of
them, is that the old guard is dying off, and their children's thinking will
change or show in the popularity they enjoy. The writing is on the wall, and
the cost of producing and spreading poison is becoming something only the
very most willfully ignorant can ignore.

Organic does not mean pesticide free...
 

"jonathan zeidman" wrote in message
...

"Gordon Couger" wrote in message
news:acexc.11087$1L4.5742@okepread02...

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger writes

Do the conventional plots rotate the same as organic plots, are they
in
continues wheat or some other rotation.

Both are first wheats after break. The organic rotations have far more
breaks than the arable ones.

The largest loss in organic
agriculture is the years that the land is in low production rotations
that produce low value or no value crops.

Of course. Some of these are complete losses being, in effect, cover
crops. Red clover is a typical one, with herbiage all ploughed under,
in
all-arable organic rotations.

Then for a true picture the total yield in some unit, dollar or pounds
sterling per acre in total yield of wheat, feed, fiber meat and what
ever
should be totaled up and divided by the number of years in the study
giving
true value of the output of an organic farming operation per unit area
compared to a conventional or modern farm. Showing how much far they are
really behind modern methods. With total production nearer 25% or less
that
of a modern farm ran in an intensive operation.

Gordon

Hey Gord, don't forget to factor in the carcinogen and neurotoxin
levels/acre. In that your methodology is way ahead. How's your blood,
anyways? The last farmer I worked for couldn't walk 100 yards because his
blood no longer carries oxygen, thanks to the pesticides he worked with
his
whole life. The good news for progressive thinkers, and you're not one of
them, is that the old guard is dying off, and their children's thinking
will
change or show in the popularity they enjoy. The writing is on the wall,
and
the cost of producing and spreading poison is becoming something only the
very most willfully ignorant can ignore.

Not a thing wrong with my blood. I do have a problem with multiple sclerosis
that came down with when I was 15 before I had any thing to do with farm
chemicals. I saw my spray pilot the other day and at 70 is still working and
is healthy and has a little gray hair. My dad started having problems
walking a year ago he will be 96 in two months. My grand mother lived to 104
and her mother to 96 all with farming and ranching bakgrounds.

I do know a few farmers that injured themselves with insecticides by being
careless. That is why I hired experts to apply mine.

The average age of a farmer is nearly 60 and very very few young men are
coming back to the farm. My second cousin just took over the family ranch
and she is 58. Her dad stayed on until he died at 88.

I would like you to define what you think progressive agriculture is?

Gordon

Gordon Couger Wrote:
"ta" wrote in message
...
rick etter wrote:
And that means also not cruelty-free. Just what I've been saying...

"...some organic pesticides have mammalian toxicities that are far
higher than many synthetic pesticides..."
http://tinyurl.com/6a5y2

Wow, I can't *believe* CFGI, which is funded by the right-wing think
tank
Hudson Institute, could possibly be promoting information that
supports
their big agribusiness clients like Monsanto, ConAgra, and Archer
Daniels
Midland, who have everything to lose by the success of organic
farming.

But to be fair, I can't answer the specific charges as I'm not an
expert,
so
I'm expanding the thread to get a wider range of input.

Does the messenger make the message any less correct? What Alex fails
to
mention are the pest that organic pesticides won't touch. The boll
weevil,
alfalfa aphid and corn root worm to name a few. In the last 100 years
we
have made ever effort to make farming less invasive on the land and
going
back to organic farming would not only reduce yields and increase
erosion
but plunge the world into famine if it was the only way allowed as
many
want.
What everybody seems to be unaware of are plant extracts and
micro-organisms that have been tried and tested, work as well, if not
better, than chemical pesticides, cannot damage beneficial insects and
are harmless to animals, humans, plants and wildlife. Best of all, and
this is a trick that chemicals can't perform, it's impossible for
insect pests to develop resistance to them due to their mode of
action.

To take the three pests mentioned; Neem oil kills boll weevil and it's
been in use 4,000 years, alfalfa aphid is killed by BDB extract and
that goes gack to the mists of time as a traditional Chinese herbal
medicine and corn root worm is resoundingly eradicated by a fungus that
is responsible for green muscadine disease, first discovered in the
1830s in Europe. They are pesticides, Gordon, but not as we know it and
they just happen to be 100% organic. But don't worry, they won't be
appearing on the shelves of your local agricultural merchant to tempt
the weak; because they're completely natural they can't be patented so
no company is going to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds getting
them licenced and discovering they can't protect it. W.R. Grace
patented a method of extracting Azadarachtin from Neem oil to allow it
to last longer on the leaf surface but mother nature, for some perverse
reason, decreed that Neem oil works just as well with its main
ingredient removed. Any chemical pesticides spring to mind that can do
that?

As for conventional versus organic yields, Azotobacter will outperform
any amount of chemical fertiliser; it will never scorch plants, no
matter how much you use, it produces it's own organic matter to build
up soil fertility and it can't create nitrate run-off. As far as soil
erosion is concerned, planting through a permanent green manure crop is
helping to reverse years of soil erosion caused by conventional farming
in South America. I can also add Trichoderma; unlike methyl bromide,
you don't need to wear a gas mask, you can plant immediately and it
kills all pathogenic fungi. As a bonus it's also a plant growth
stimulant.

There is a lot of cutting edge bio-technology out there and if the
organic lobby stopped sniping at conventional farmers they might notice
that the world has moved on and it is they who may well be living in the
past.

If you want a glimpse into the future of organic growing, visit
http://www.gardenknowledge.co.uk


--
lammas

What everybody seems to be unaware of are plant extracts and micro-organisms that have been tried and tested, work as well, if not better, than chemical pesticides, cannot damage beneficial insects and are harmless to animals, humans, plants and wildlife. Best of all, and this is a trick that chemicals can't perform, it's impossible for insect pests to develop resistance to them due to their mode of action.

To take the three pests mentioned; Neem oil kills boll weevil and it's been in use 4,000 years, alfalfa aphid is killed by BDB extract and that goes gack to the mists of time as a traditional Chinese herbal medicine and corn root worm is resoundingly eradicated by a fungus that is responsible for green muscadine disease, first discovered in the 1830s in Europe. They are pesticides, Gordon, but not as we know it and they just happen to be 100% organic. But don't worry, they won't be appearing on the shelves of your local agricultural merchant to tempt the weak; because they're completely natural they can't be patented so no company is going to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds getting them licenced and discovering they can't protect it. W.R. Grace patented a method of extracting Azadarachtin from Neem oil to allow it to last longer on the leaf surface but mother nature, for some perverse reason, decreed that Neem oil works just as well with its main ingredient removed. Any chemical pesticides spring to mind that can do that?

As for conventional versus organic yields, Azotobacter will outperform any amount of chemical fertiliser; it will never scorch plants, no matter how much you use, it produces it's own organic matter to build up soil fertility and it can't create nitrate run-off. As far as soil erosion is concerned, planting through a permanent green manure crop is helping to reverse years of soil erosion caused by conventional farming in South America. I can also add Trichoderma; unlike methyl bromide, you don't need to wear a gas mask, you can plant immediately and it kills all pathogenic fungi. As a bonus it's also a plant growth stimulant.

There is a lot of cutting edge bio-technology out there and if the organic lobby stopped sniping at conventional farmers they might notice that the world has moved on and it is they who may well be living in the past.

If you want a glimpse into the future of organic growing, visit http://www.gardenknowledge.co.uk