Salinity
 

Hi Folks
As some of you know this is a subject quite dear to me because of the
amount of salinity in and around where I live.

I've stated before that I don't believe salinity is THE problem but
rather A symptom of poor soil structure, and I'm increasingly frustrated
when I look for info on how salinity is being managed or addressed.

Most if not all the sources I can find on the net are government
sponsored surveys which seem intent on telling me how bad salinity is
and why it's such a problem and how they will continue to develop models
to ascertain the extent of salinity and how to recognise it ...etc etc
etc ....... all this is necessary I'm sure for the "experts" to gain an
understanding of the so called problem and to help others understand its
devastating effects, and I have no doubt that there are many many people
receiving government grants to fund these surveys and refine their
models and salt mapping diagrams.

Almost all of the info is negative and depressing and virtually states
that we are doomed to be swallowed up by mountains of salt unless we do
something ... the trouble is I can't actually find anyone who IS doing
anything other than devising yet another model or salt map for continued
monitoring ...of course all at great expense in the form of grant
money which ultimately gets passed onto the public in the form of levies
and surcharges.

My question is this .... does anyone know of any information on the net
which shows positive results from methods which can be applied by the
everyday person ?.

Most of the farming resources I read understandably deal with enabling
the farmer to still get a return from salt affected land whilst using
techniques to reduce high water tables and salt content, but I think thy
never actually address the real issue of soil structure Most of the
horticultural areas seem to be on land that is unaffected by salt so
there never seems to be a push within the smaller acreage groups or
their growers cooperatives to address the issue ...its left to the
larger properties and their organisations SAFF, NFF etc because (I
presume) the effects are more noticeable and have the most damage
potential to our primary production.

I don't want to learn how to grow salt tolerant species I already know
what plants will grow in some of the worst effected areas... I want to
create soil that will grow anything that my climate, as dry as it is,
will allow me to grow ...

I'm talking about practical people doing practical, positive things
which have yielded results however small a particular favourite of mine
is the "Greening the desert" by Geoff Lawton

http://www.abc.net.au/northcoast/stories/s727970.htm#

There are both flash presentations and real media version links.

This is the sort of info I'm looking for, I'm already getting some
varied success from trying different things ...as some of you know from
my postings here .... but I'm always looking for others sources of info
.... no more reports, studies or models from well intentioned government
sponsored surveys ... I feel like I've read all of em.

I wonder if anyone would be interested if I put together a simple web
page wiv piccies of my modest efforts in the hopes of helping others ?

stay well, stay happy folks

Pete

g'day pete,

dunno if you will ever find a difinitive answer as the agancies tend
to hedge around the real cause in a cause and effect situation.

the best and only way i know of that nature had employed to keep the
salt table down was trees particularly the gum trees, so naturally any
rehabilitation that way is going to take a very long time to even
begin to work. at the very least probably somewhere up near 70 years.

that's just how i see it these are the damages caused by long term
european style agriculture on the fragile soils and systems of
australia. styles that are still being emplyed although i hear farmer
types saying that the tree are need they still folloow the same clear
fell folly.

i will help with the web page as best i can i'm sure we can help you
get something online.

glad to see you still about pete, remember when you use te return addy
delete SPAM before sending, glad to help where i can hey and i'm no
tree hugger if they weren't needed then why did nature grow them?

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

Hi Len thanks for the reply.

I think its well understood that deep rooted vegetation helps to lower
the water table which helps to reduce salinity within the immediate area.

I agree that past farming practices were/are not particularly suited to
the oz situation, but I don't buy into the argument that farmers are to
blame for the rising salt levels, some folks would have us believe that
farmers are hell bent on destroying the environment just to make a buck,
I say thats total BS, when us white folks landed here we used what we
knew, the tools and practices to grow food were what we brought with us
from our respective countries.

The early settlers had no way of knowing that the practices their
families had used for thousands of years would create any probs in this
new environment.

Dry land salinity was around then .... its not something that was
created by farmers as a result of bad practice, it may have been
worsened in areas which were sensitive and damaged by the early farming
techniques ...clear felling etc, but it's not the cause, if the soil
structure had been favourable to those farming practices we would be
hailing the farmers as environmental saviors ... remember they didnt
have soil tests, PH kits, salinity measuring or modeling tools, access
to seed other than what they or their peers brought with them or access
to specialised tools for minimum till, direct drilling ...there was no
permapine fence posts sold at the rural supplies ... all fence posts had
to be cut from the land, the house had to be built from timber from the
land .... even the roof shingles, thats no different than a
permaculturist clearing a patch of ground to use the timber to build a
chookhouse so that it creates a space for veggie growing nearby.... the
old "use the resources available" technique was the only technique they had.

The plows available were the moldboard type used for many many years
very effectively and pulled by horse or bullock of course on beautiful
friable soil the compaction was minimal, but used on the type of sodic
clays that are around many parts of Oz results in compaction and damage
that takes some serious restoration work .... but what else could they
use? ..... nothing, they used what they had and knew and they should be
applauded for the sheer determination and true grit they showed, instead
they are blamed for just about any problem we have.

Sure many many mistakes were made ...still are today ...even with our
highly paid consultants and computer modeling, our GPS systems and
special computer designed planning procedures and land management
techniques, we have world experts on water use, feed stocks, feed rates,
salinity, native tree experts, fungi experts, scientists doing
research into how much fat a sheep/cow/pig etc should have, we have
nutritionists working out the optimum feed to meat conversion,
agronomists working out the optimum fertiliser application rates ...and
the list goes on and on and on ......... and we STILL make mistakes ....
imagine the farmer disembarking onto Aussie soil in the 1800's with Wife
and kids, a cow, a horse or ox and a plough, enough woodworking tools to
cut and shape wood to make a house and enough seed and knowledge to grow
food till the next harvest ..... nope I don't ... can't put the blame
for mistakes on those folks they did what they had to do to survive ...
as it turned out those early practices were bad for the aussie soils and
climate.

Enter the era of "modern" farming, huge companies producing fertilisers,
herbicides, insecticides, the pre cleared land offering potential for
1000 acre paddocks and enormous potential for farming on a truly grand
scale ... the banks are throwing money at farmers to encourage them to
get bigger so that they can produce more and borrow more money to buy
bigger tractors, bigger and better ploughs, slashers, seeders ... the
fertiliser companies finding huge phosphate resources, telling farmers
your problems are solved ...spray this, spread that apply this and it
will increase your profits 10 fold...you can make oodles of cash ..the
banks like this idea and encourage more borrowing....

Then when things don't work out the scapegoat is the farmer ....

Buy a copy of "The stock journal" ... and tell me the type of adverts
that appear in there are not designed to lead ANY farmer ...ANY person
reading them ....to believe that every product on sale will " boost
production, increase yield, reduce invasive weeds, reduce fly strike,
eliminate soil erosion, contain stock better than ever before" .... and
on and on.

Don't blame the farmers .... they are as caught up in the system as we
as average consumers are caught up in the throw away, mass production,
built in obsolesance society that has emerged because we all believed
that "things made from plastic/Teflon/pvc etc was going to be cheaper
than wood/metal ..that computers would make things simpler and reduce
costs thereby reducing prices" .... and all the other hype that the
advertisers would have us believe.

To ask a farmer to completely abandon a practice that produces enough
return to keep his/her head above water every year and try techniques
that we as permaculturists, organic gardeners or just plain "interested
parties" think are great, is like telling someone who works in any other
field (pardon the pun) that their lifes work is totally wrong and
everything they are doing is ruining the country ...and WE have the
answer .... if we do that are we not as bad as the advertisers telling
the farmers that they are using the wrong spray if they are not using
OUR spray ?


Some of the land that is now mapped as the worst affected dryland
salinity areas have never, ever had any farming on them ... so how do
people presume that bad land management is to blame for the salt in
those areas?

There have always been inland lakes in Oz ... lakes that are saline, and
some much more saline than sea water the soils around those areas are
salty, the evaporation rates far in excess of the rainfall and the soil
structure usually ranging from silt to fine clay particles with no
organic content in them... and thats why I think that the answer to the
salt symptom is to create soil ...real soil which has water holding
capacity, organic content, available nutrients that the plants can
access and a structure that will withstand the harsh conditions and
erosive effects of the blistering sun and driving winds, only then will
we be able to grow the deep rooted veg needed to reduce the salt content.


But what do I know? nothing basically ... whats working for me could be
absolutely the wrong thing for the aussie environment ...just as those
early farmers found things which worked for them, which 200 years later
have been found to be the wrong things to do .....

All I know is I'm growing a bit of veg in very salty ground, nothing
really earth shattering is taking place, I'm adding organic content,
ensuring the areas get as much rainfall as they can by using any
contours and trying to use excess vegetation as mulch and to return
nutrients to those areas.

Now ...see ya made me rant on :) ... I wasn't gonna rant for once and
Now I have .....again ...sorry...again


End of rant
Pete
















len gardener wrote:
g'day pete,

dunno if you will ever find a difinitive answer as the agancies tend
to hedge around the real cause in a cause and effect situation.

the best and only way i know of that nature had employed to keep the
salt table down was trees particularly the gum trees, so naturally any
rehabilitation that way is going to take a very long time to even
begin to work. at the very least probably somewhere up near 70 years.

that's just how i see it these are the damages caused by long term
european style agriculture on the fragile soils and systems of
australia. styles that are still being emplyed although i hear farmer
types saying that the tree are need they still folloow the same clear
fell folly.

i will help with the web page as best i can i'm sure we can help you
get something online.

glad to see you still about pete, remember when you use te return addy
delete SPAM before sending, glad to help where i can hey and i'm no
tree hugger if they weren't needed then why did nature grow them?

len

snipped

"pete" wrote in message

Hi Folks

Hi Pete. Nice to see you again.

I've stated before that I don't believe salinity is THE problem but
rather A symptom of poor soil structure, and I'm increasingly frustrated
when I look for info on how salinity is being managed or addressed.

Pete I've mentioned these farms here befo
http://www.abc.net.au/landline/stories/s100812.htm

I know that one of the major problems at least one of these farms had was
salinity. somewhere I have a book on what was on those farms but I can't
lay my hands on it at the moment. It is fascinating reading and I can
strongly recommend it.


Most if not all the sources I can find on the net are government
sponsored surveys which seem intent on telling me how bad salinity is
and why it's such a problem and how they will continue to develop models
to ascertain the extent of salinity and how to recognise it ...etc etc
etc ....... all this is necessary I'm sure for the "experts" to gain an
understanding of the so called problem and to help others understand its
devastating effects, and I have no doubt that there are many many people
receiving government grants to fund these surveys and refine their
models and salt mapping diagrams.

Almost all of the info is negative and depressing and virtually states
that we are doomed to be swallowed up by mountains of salt unless we do
something ... the trouble is I can't actually find anyone who IS doing
anything other than devising yet another model or salt map for continued
monitoring ...of course all at great expense in the form of grant
money which ultimately gets passed onto the public in the form of levies
and surcharges.

My question is this .... does anyone know of any information on the net
which shows positive results from methods which can be applied by the
everyday person ?.

Most of the farming resources I read understandably deal with enabling
the farmer to still get a return from salt affected land whilst using
techniques to reduce high water tables and salt content, but I think thy
never actually address the real issue of soil structure

I'm not sure what you mean by "soil structure". I do know that a lot of the
salinity info I've seen relating to farm salinity is about increasing humus
content (wiht the recognition that this is very difficult but that
increasing soil biota is very possible and also very successful) and
increasing soil coverage (by vegetation muclching etc and very strong
protection against any degradtion of the souil by both animal activity and
human activity.


This is the sort of info I'm looking for, I'm already getting some
varied success from trying different things ...as some of you know from
my postings here .... but I'm always looking for others sources of info
... no more reports, studies or models from well intentioned government
sponsored surveys ... I feel like I've read all of em.

Do you remember me posting this site befo
http://www.rosneath.com.au/ipc6/ch02/withers/index.html

I think it fits your criteria of soil creation and effective coping with
appalling non productive soil very well and is very inspiring. You may not
agree :-))

I wonder if anyone would be interested if I put together a simple web
page wiv piccies of my modest efforts in the hopes of helping others ?

I'd be very interested.

Fran

Len I promised that I'd sendyou some wattle seeds when they were ripe in
Autumn.

Sorry mate, the cockies beat me to the seeds and I can't even find anything
but empty seed cases on the ground.

Fran

Farm1 wrote:

Pete I've mentioned these farms here befo
http://www.abc.net.au/landline/stories/s100812.htm

I know that one of the major problems at least one of these farms had was
salinity. somewhere I have a book on what was on those farms but I can't
lay my hands on it at the moment. It is fascinating reading and I can
strongly recommend it.

Hiya Fran
I remember the last link but couldnt remember the first one so thanks
for them I'll save em as faves and have a good read.

I have to admit the farming organisations seem to be doing lots of stuff
to try new things and the farmers themselves seem much more open to
trying new things these days too, at one time not so long ago farmers
wouldn't have even admitted to having a salt prob because it was seen as
a failure to manage the property properly, I think ...I hope those
attitudes are changing and farmers now seem to openly discuss it and
look for ways of dealing with it.


I'm not sure what you mean by "soil structure". I do know that a lot of the
salinity info I've seen relating to farm salinity is about increasing humus
content (wiht the recognition that this is very difficult but that
increasing soil biota is very possible and also very successful) and
increasing soil coverage (by vegetation muclching etc and very strong
protection against any degradtion of the souil by both animal activity and
human activity.

OK Tomorrow I'm definitely taking some soil pics, before and after pics
of what simple hoss poop can do to a poor excuse for a soil.... you'll
see what I mean by soil structure then my girl :) I'll give you soil
structure (oops ..slipped into grumpy old fart mode then) ......actually
of course its just my interpretation of what a good soil structure
should be but if I manage to take good pics I'm sure you'll agree that
the structure is more like soil and less like dried pea soup waiting for
moisture, plus it has "things" growing in it.

This is basically what I've been saying all along ...look after the soil
and the rest will follow ...I know on a broad acre place this is a
nightmare task of mammoth proportions ya can't just cart manure to a
spot when you see a need because of other needs, crops, grazing etc, I'm
only working on this new section which is tiny compared to a paddock but
its taking some work to even get a few rows to mature into what I call
real soil so I take my hat off to anyone tackling many hectares, my
only problem with their well intentioned and sometimes spectacular
results is that most of the time I can't directly relate to the
procedures they are using, reading an old -ish Stock Journal a farmer is
applying 2T/HA of Gypsum onto very clayey and saline paddocks which
increases his DSE from 1 DSE/8HA to 4DSE/HA !!!! now thats a huge
difference and it's improving the moisture retention of the clay soils
by enabling the particles to form colloidal (help spell checker) mass
..... rather than minute particles that form a dense clod.



Do you remember me posting this site befo
http://www.rosneath.com.au/ipc6/ch02/withers/index.html

I think it fits your criteria of soil creation and effective coping with
appalling non productive soil very well and is very inspiring. You may not
agree :-))

I always agree with you ...you know that, remember I had the worms? ,,,
they are still around in a much broader area and possibly less dense
population ....the original vermicompost has been used for different
projects with varying degrees of success ...it dries out to almost the
same unwettable stuff that we've talked about before if it's left too
long without moisture, I lost my raspberry bush which was at one stage
going rampant in the old worm beds because I became complacent and
thought the moisture was actually getting deep into the "soil" ... it
wasnt, one thing we have found the ex vermicompost good for is growing
native trees in, which would seem to confirm that there is little high
nutrient value left in it but when watered carefully it holds water
while still being free draining.


I wonder if anyone would be interested if I put together a simple web
page wiv piccies of my modest efforts in the hopes of helping others ?


I'd be very interested.

Fran

Then thats 2 of ya's ...and it shall be done ...just don't expect earth
shattering discoveries.... just a simple guy playing in the dirt.

Pete

pete wrote:
I can't directly relate to the
procedures they are using, reading an old -ish Stock Journal a farmer is
applying 2T/HA of Gypsum onto very clayey and saline paddocks which
increases his DSE from 1 DSE/8HA to 4DSE/HA !!!! now thats a huge
difference and it's improving the moisture retention of the clay soils
by enabling the particles to form colloidal (help spell checker) mass
.... rather than minute particles that form a dense clod.

oops I meant to add here ... that I havent got the means to buy, spread
and dig in those sorts of amounts of gypsum even though I KNOW it would
help greatly .. so while I know Gyspum is great for clay soils and I'm
impressed with this farmers results ... I'm more interested in creating
a living soil structure by more modest means, (read cheap here).

Pete

that's ok fran,

we are on the narket yet again this time for real things if nothing
else constantly change hey.

len
snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

For anyone interested.
The national dryland salinity program has a free CD and a coupla manuals
available at
http://www.ndsp.gov.au/about.asp?section=105

Pete

"pete" wrote lots of interesting things in his
message

Then thats 2 of ya's ...and it shall be done ...just don't expect earth
shattering discoveries.... just a simple guy playing in the dirt.

In extrme haste - have read and roughly digested what you wrote, but have to
get of this machine and get ready for work - will write more tomorrow (I
hope - if not then, then shortly thereafter).

Fran

In article ,
pete wrote:

Almost all of the info is negative and depressing and virtually states
that we are doomed to be swallowed up by mountains of salt unless we do
something ... the trouble is I can't actually find anyone who IS doing
anything other than devising yet another model or salt map for continued
monitoring ...of course all at great expense in the form of grant
money which ultimately gets passed onto the public in the form of levies
and surcharges.

My question is this .... does anyone know of any information on the net
which shows positive results from methods which can be applied by the
everyday person ?.

I posted about this last year:

Chookie Nov 1 2004, 9:33 pm
Newsgroups: alt.permaculture
From: Chookie - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:33:39 +1100
Local: Mon,Nov 1 2004 9:33 pm
Subject: Permie Practices Take Over WA

We did a bit of travelling in the Wertern Australian wheat belt a few weeks
ago (did a circuit from York to Corrigin to Wickepin to Narrogin, then across
to Mandurah and Perth) and were interested to see permie things taking root,
so to speak, on broadacre farms.

There is a new (and plainly recent) fad for swales, belts of natives, and I
even saw something that looked suspiciously like alley cropping -- single rows
of trees with wheat belts one harvester wide planted between them. It's very
odd to come upon all this hippie stuff in Ironbar Tuckey country!

The reason, we discovered, was salination. The wheat belt was originally
forest, and clearing and planting to wheat has raised the water table to such
an extent that low-lying patches are visibly swampy and infertile (they are
evil-looking brown areas, like something out of the Lord of the Rings). The
remedial work, familiar to anyone who's read any permie stuff, is working, and
is working quickly, too. The problem isn't gone yet, but there has been a
noticeable improvement, and the locals are hopeful that they can produce grain
sustainably over the long term.

Thought you'd all like to know. WA is viewed by most Easterners as populated
almost entirely by racists and conmen who believe anything that moves should
be hunted down and anything that doesn't should be chopped down or dug up.
Plainly, it is not!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

Farm1 wrote:
"pete" wrote lots of interesting things in his
message


Then thats 2 of ya's ...and it shall be done ...just don't expect earth
shattering discoveries.... just a simple guy playing in the dirt.


In extrme haste - have read and roughly digested what you wrote, but have to
get of this machine and get ready for work - will write more tomorrow (I
hope - if not then, then shortly thereafter).

Fran


Stop rushing around ...

Have a look at this quick, rushed ...oops I mean simple but carefully
crafted web page that I've thrown ... I mean lovingly put together just
for you and Len cos ya said ya wuz interested .... it's not much and
I'll try to make it a bit more user freindly and hopefully informative
as time goes on .... anyways here tis

http://whatsallthisthen.100free.com/

yes of course its on a free server waddya expect from me?

Pete

Chookie wrote:
In article ,
pete wrote:


Almost all of the info is negative and depressing and virtually states
that we are doomed to be swallowed up by mountains of salt unless we do
something ... the trouble is I can't actually find anyone who IS doing
anything other than devising yet another model or salt map for continued
monitoring ...of course all at great expense in the form of grant
money which ultimately gets passed onto the public in the form of levies
and surcharges.

My question is this .... does anyone know of any information on the net
which shows positive results from methods which can be applied by the
everyday person ?.


I posted about this last year:

Chookie Nov 1 2004, 9:33 pm
Newsgroups: alt.permaculture
From: Chookie - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:33:39 +1100
Local: Mon,Nov 1 2004 9:33 pm
Subject: Permie Practices Take Over WA

We did a bit of travelling in the Wertern Australian wheat belt a few weeks
ago (did a circuit from York to Corrigin to Wickepin to Narrogin, then across
to Mandurah and Perth) and were interested to see permie things taking root,
so to speak, on broadacre farms.

There is a new (and plainly recent) fad for swales, belts of natives, and I
even saw something that looked suspiciously like alley cropping -- single rows
of trees with wheat belts one harvester wide planted between them. It's very
odd to come upon all this hippie stuff in Ironbar Tuckey country!

The reason, we discovered, was salination. The wheat belt was originally
forest, and clearing and planting to wheat has raised the water table to such
an extent that low-lying patches are visibly swampy and infertile (they are
evil-looking brown areas, like something out of the Lord of the Rings). The
remedial work, familiar to anyone who's read any permie stuff, is working, and
is working quickly, too. The problem isn't gone yet, but there has been a
noticeable improvement, and the locals are hopeful that they can produce grain
sustainably over the long term.

Thought you'd all like to know. WA is viewed by most Easterners as populated
almost entirely by racists and conmen who believe anything that moves should
be hunted down and anything that doesn't should be chopped down or dug up.
Plainly, it is not!

Fanks Chookie ...I stand somewhat corrected, as I said before though I
see many initiatives taken up by farmers and larger properties and they
seem to be working well, trouble is things like alley cropping although
great in the right situation don't really have much in common with me
growing a few veg for home use.

I love the swales idea and thats one that I can use, at the moment I'm
pretty intent on getting some actual soil that will support life cos
it's great having a swale and planting on the up or downside of it but
that soil has to be able to grow something .... so thats where I'm at
....making some real soil so that when I do dig down I don't just fall
into a quicksand pit.

Thanks for that info it really is great to see farmers doing all this stuff.

Pete

Janet Baraclough wrote:
The message
from pete contains these words:



Have a look at this quick, rushed ...oops I mean simple but carefully
crafted web page that I've thrown ... I mean lovingly put together just
for you and Len cos ya said ya wuz interested .... it's not much and
I'll try to make it a bit more user freindly and hopefully informative
as time goes on .... anyways here tis


http://whatsallthisthen.100free.com/


Thanks Pete, I found that fascinating and the progression of pics
really brought it home. Off at a tangent, I was reading that the areas
hit by the tsunami 4 months ago were so badly salinated by it, the
usual crops won't grow. There are proposals to wash the soil with fresh
water ( !!!!!!!!!!plenty of that available there) but meanwhile
experiment with more salt-tolerant crops.

Although the situation and Indian Ocean climate is so different from
your own it might be worth keeping an eye on progress reports there to
see if they come up with any answers that could be adapted for your own
use.

Janet

Hiya Janet glad you enjoyed the page, simple as it is,I'm going to keep
it going though winter to try to show the difference by this time next
year, by the time I get into the REALLY low spot I hope I'll have proved
my point about soil structure.

I understand the Tsunami efforts ... they are panicking, I would too in
that situation of course it's the wrong thing to do for the long term
but if the area wasnt saline before the tsunami then they may get away
with it. If they can get the salt away and start to revegetate then they
may be in with a fighting chance.

The area I'm working on now has been flooded twice in the last 10 years
and the water has sat for about 2 weeks becoming more and more saline as
time goes on.

I can't even imagine the size of the task they have in front of em, of
course I've seen the pics but wow ... I felt like a little kid who sees
the RSPCA adverts and immediately wants to give all her/his pocket money
to saving lost puppies, I actually wanted to fly over and help in some
way .. not really practical says the wife ... nope, so I send a bit of
cash .... geez,

I'll keep up with news there, if ever there was a salt project worth
watching this would have to be one of em.

Pete

"pete" wrote in message


I'll try to make it a bit more user freindly and hopefully informative
as time goes on .... anyways here tis

http://whatsallthisthen.100free.com/

Pete you DO have shitty soil! My sympathies Sunshine.

Where exactly is this area you are trying to rehabilitate with the Fergie?
By that I want to know if it is in a paddock or close to the house as in
where I would expect to find a normal veggie patch?

The reaon why I ask is that I wonder whether you perhaps need to get far
more protection from the sun in terms of shade and prevention of
evaporation.

The one thing that the one combine harvester wide section between the trees
in WA (that Chookie wrote about) would do is give that sort of protection as
well as drininking up saline water at root level.

Why I'm even thinking about this angle is that I have found over the last
year that the only things I could grow in summer were things that were
either in full shade or under shade cloth. That stinking sun and the
constant hot winds just killed anything else. I've also been reading
Michael Boddy and Richard Beckett's book "Surviving in the Eighties" and he
has some good ideas about growing food in foul summer conditions. I think
its is the sort of book you'd enjoy and you may be able to get it on
interlibrary loan.

What have you managed to achieve with the addition of horse poop?

Oh blast!

I've found the other pages now with the horse poop bits! In self defence I
plead that I'm practicing for when those senior's moments become a daily
occurance.

OK stream of thought stuff now!

One thing we've decided we need to do here Pete is to plant more big trees
to get shade. The sodding sun is a major problem here and we've noticed
that the only green bits in summer are under the exotic trees or the shade
cloth or on the south side of something like a climber or a fence or the
house etc. I know that idea won't work in a veg patch but a modification on
that theme might work. Can you grow wattles for the green slash to use as a
mulch/cover on top of the soil? The reason why I ask is because you seem to
be getting some really goos soil building going but come summer all those
poor goobies working for you in doing all the work in the soil will be baked
to a cinder.

On another strand of thought - do you have any Prickly Pear plants for the
fruit? Or is that plant a problem there? Have you or anyone else tried the
fruit? I'm thinking of giving it a go here when I can sneak a plant in past
Himself.

Fran

Farm1 wrote:
Oh blast!

I've found the other pages now with the horse poop bits! In self defence I
plead that I'm practicing for when those senior's moments become a daily
occurance.

OK stream of thought stuff now!

One thing we've decided we need to do here Pete is to plant more big trees
to get shade. The sodding sun is a major problem here and we've noticed
that the only green bits in summer are under the exotic trees or the shade
cloth or on the south side of something like a climber or a fence or the
house etc. I know that idea won't work in a veg patch but a modification on
that theme might work. Can you grow wattles for the green slash to use as a
mulch/cover on top of the soil? The reason why I ask is because you seem to
be getting some really goos soil building going but come summer all those
poor goobies working for you in doing all the work in the soil will be baked
to a cinder.

On another strand of thought - do you have any Prickly Pear plants for the
fruit? Or is that plant a problem there? Have you or anyone else tried the
fruit? I'm thinking of giving it a go here when I can sneak a plant in past
Himself.

Fran


So many questions ..... you're like a whirling dervish when ya get started.

OK The stage the rows are at now is just having gone through a summer
and still in dry conditions and mild 20 ish degree days ... I think
today will be 24 with the chance of a shower yippee, of course I've been
hand watering to break down the horse manure, the beds where the manure
has broken down properly (although it's still happening) get watered
only on a weekly basis, by one of those weeper type hoses left on for a
couple of hours or so thats all, the rows that are "fresh" are still
watered daily and quite thoroughly at times depending on the weather and
if I know I'm not going to get back to them till maybe later the
following "maybe" hot day... basically they as much water as they need
to keep em in place against any strong winds and to allow the manure to
break done or compost ... so it depends... could be different each day.

Regarding the trees/shade and wind protection ...you're rushing me,:-)
the last updates on the site gives a little insight into what will
follow the veggies and I found late yesterday a Myoporum insulare
(boobialla) that the birds have planted for me in one of the beds ( at
least it looks like one ..its tiny yet) which couldnt have been planted
in a better spot if I'd done it myself. because of the increased bird
activity I'm getting a lot of seed left around the place but this is the
first native and the first perennial plant thats popped up ...

I'll get a pic of it today and try to explain what will go where as the
whole thing progresses, I have been thinking of a shade house a bit
lower down and alongside some of the salt bush ... but thats for later,
you might be able to see in one of the pics ..the first one on page 2
I think ... there is a line of salt bush nearer the camera ... about a
dozen 6 inch high plants.... they are planted into the orrible soil and
are struggling, one has died they were originally going to be a buffer
against the strong hot northerlies.... if we get some rain most of em
will get going again and we plan to buy another tray (160 plants) this
year for planting around some new fencing I'm doing in other parts.

The camera angle on pic 1 page 2 is from the NNW so the small line of
salt bush is to the north of the rows and the house is to the south of
that pic ...or to the left just out of frame about 20 -30 metres.

The top corner of that pic ..where the 3 tank circles are will be the
nearest point to the house and alongside the path/driveway which is used
daily to get to the horse yards, so that will have kitchen herbs and
stuff that can be picked fairly easily without trudging through the mud.
Along that fence line and further to the left there will be an archway
also accessible from the "front yard", which will lead to a path at the
end of those rows and the shadehouse will be on the other side of that
path. ... I'll try to draw a plan but my scanner isn't working so it'll
have to be done with one of the drawing progs ...paint or sumsuch, but
it'll give ya some idea of what I eventually want to achieve ... making
me divulge my secret plans early so ya can larf at me when it doesnt
work eh? ....

What were the other questions? ... oh yeah wattles,... maybe .. I only
have one a golden wattle and its not doing too well in much better soil
than I have in this patch, I will need some leguminous plants in there
but where they will go will have to be planned ... in fact any large
tree in the area of those beds will restrict the views we have now of
the Adelaide hills and the horses both of which M loves... so very
careful planning will be in order there if I'm to continue enjoying full
health.

Chooks will eventually be incorporated into the area too, and also a
meat rabbit breeding house, but the rabbits are a long way down the
track, the chooks will be introduced much earlier in the piece.

ok now ya spoiled me secret plan
I wanted ya to keep saying gosh and golly and wow and stuff.... now
yas'll all say "ha that bit didn't work did it?" .......:)

I wont be planting any gums thats a definite, I need every bit of rain
and although I know gums would suck up plenty of that saline water table
I can't afford for em to steal me precious rainwater.... but there will
definitely be trees both native and exotic fruiting.

I actually have prickly pear plant just to the north of this patch and
on a rise of about half a metre ... I've never had fruit off of it and
it just sits there not dying but not growing either, I've eaten the
fruit off other plants and it's not too bad...sort of sweet but not..
almost like a strawberry but yet not ... worth trying though I reckon
they would make some sort of jam or even a savoury sauce like a
cranberry sauce or used as a poultry glaze.... dunno but worth messing with.

I've tasted most of everything we've got growing around the place and
even tried smoking some of it :-) ...dont get me started ... the pigface
plants have a fruit on em which you could eat if ya really wanted
...slightly salty and not unpleasant ... but not in the same league as a
bar of choccy. and the ruby saltbush have a tiny berry that's not bad ..
trouble is you'd need a shovel full for a real snack.

Weve stolen Quandongs from next door but they have nearly always got a
bug inside em by the time we get em, so apart from a quick bite and spit
out we've not had any joy wiv em, I've tasted Quandong jam and thats
really nice.

ok have I answered everything? .... prolly not but I gotta go try to get
a pic of this little Myoporum ...

Pete

In article ,
pete wrote:

I wont be planting any gums thats a definite, I need every bit of rain
and although I know gums would suck up plenty of that saline water table
I can't afford for em to steal me precious rainwater.... but there will
definitely be trees both native and exotic fruiting.

Do you have a local melaleuca species you can use for shade? Not so aggro
with the roots as gums might be, tend to be very salt/wind tolerant, and you
can use the brush for your shade house later on. Though I think some of them
tend to prevent anything else from growing around them (is it called
allopathic?).

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

Chookie wrote:
In article ,
pete wrote:


I wont be planting any gums thats a definite, I need every bit of rain
and although I know gums would suck up plenty of that saline water table
I can't afford for em to steal me precious rainwater.... but there will
definitely be trees both native and exotic fruiting.


Do you have a local melaleuca species you can use for shade? Not so aggro
with the roots as gums might be, tend to be very salt/wind tolerant, and you
can use the brush for your shade house later on. Though I think some of them
tend to prevent anything else from growing around them (is it called
allopathic?).

Hiya Chookie
The Melaleuca idea might be a winner, we have one which seems pretty
common it may be M.halmaturorum ??? they seem pretty slow growing I
"think" I have one of these outside my front window and its very hardy,
doesnt get much water and yet looks very healthy, so you may be right Thanks

This one doesen't actually have the "Brush" type of foliage like some of
the finer ones .. here is a link to a pic of one
http://www.deltaenvironmental.com.au...ra/mhalmat.htm

Pete

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
from "Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow contains these words:

In self defence I
plead that I'm practicing for when those senior's moments become a daily
occurance.

You're way behind, missis...if I could limit them to once a day I'd
be a happy boony, er...

Well some days do have a way of going pear shaped. I din't think it was
senior moments but then...........

On another strand of thought - do you have any Prickly Pear plants for
the
fruit? Or is that plant a problem there? Have you or anyone else tried
the
fruit? I'm thinking of giving it a go here when I can sneak a plant in
past
Himself.

Haven't they become a noxious weed in some countries (possibly yours?)
?

Yes but like a lot of plants it can be far more ramapant in some areas then
others. Hereabouts I've seen it growing very tamely and well contained. In
other places it is (or has been) simply rampant and one couldn't get a match
between plants.

Pampas grass is also a noxious weed in some places but here where it is
rather colder than in the weed zones it is a (relatively) smallish and neat
garden clump of about 6 ft high.

"pete" wrote in

OK The stage the rows are at now is just having gone through a summer
and still in dry conditions and mild 20 ish degree days ... I think
today will be 24 with the chance of a shower yippee, of course I've been
hand watering to break down the horse manure, the beds where the manure
has broken down properly (although it's still happening) get watered
only on a weekly basis, by one of those weeper type hoses left on for a
couple of hours or so thats all, the rows that are "fresh" are still
watered daily and quite thoroughly at times depending on the weather and
if I know I'm not going to get back to them till maybe later the
following "maybe" hot day... basically they as much water as they need
to keep em in place against any strong winds and to allow the manure to
break done or compost ... so it depends... could be different each day.

I had a really good experience this year with horse poop and leaves from
exotic trees/weisteria spread on one of my veg beds which has rotten soil.

I have found a fabulous non ending supply of poops already piled and all I
have to do is shovel 'em into the back of my truck. I weeded and watered
this veg bed, threw a load of poops on top and then topped that with a load
of autumn leaves (I did this in about early summer as the leaves had just
lain in a quiet corner doing nuttin all of winter - I knew summer here would
be a stinker so didn't even try to do anything in that particular rotten
bed). It got infrequent watering (prolly about once a month) and I've only
recently scraped the leaves off and dug it over and planted it with all
sorts of veg (bok choi, broccoli, English spinach, silverbeet, 2 types of
lettuce and some space left over for succession plantings of more spinach
which we love). It is full of worms and it's very ahrd to credit the
difference in the quality of the soil.

I think my experiences with this bed and some of the other observations
we've made this summer is the reason why I've been wittering on about shade.
I've written before about my water repellent soil and given how little
watering this bed got (and I know it was water reppellent at some stages as
I checked) and I've used horse poop before (but not in quite the same way)
I'm wondering about he effects of shading the soil with both the poops and
the leaves. The worms just got on with it and could operate in the dark. I
dunno perhaps I'm just ranting, but I do believe that the dark and the mulch
may have been more of a help than I could have ever thought. I was sooooooo
****ed of by this bed (and the rest of the garden in general) and soooooo
****ed off by the sort of summer we had (hot and dry, hot and dry and windy,
hot and dry etc etc etc) that I far less than I normally would have. I had
odd bursts of activity in between severe ****edoffedness attacks but I am
now very impressed with this bed and it is probably better than any others
that I have.

Regarding the trees/shade and wind protection ...you're rushing me,:-)

Sorry, but I have begun to think that it is ratehr important :-))

the last updates on the site gives a little insight into what will
follow the veggies and I found late yesterday a Myoporum insulare
(boobialla) that the birds have planted for me in one of the beds ( at
least it looks like one ..its tiny yet) which couldnt have been planted
in a better spot if I'd done it myself. because of the increased bird
activity I'm getting a lot of seed left around the place but this is the
first native and the first perennial plant thats popped up ...

Congrats! Always a thrill I find when volunteer platns appear.

( snip of future plans description.)

Chooks will eventually be incorporated into the area too, and also a
meat rabbit breeding house, but the rabbits are a long way down the
track, the chooks will be introduced much earlier in the piece.

Waht about moving both of those plans up a bit? They could certainly help
in your soil improvement plans given that both need to be fed but all output
goes back to the soil. (And realistically they are both more productive
than horses but don't tell your missus I said that :-))

ok now ya spoiled me secret plan
I wanted ya to keep saying gosh and golly and wow and stuff.... now
yas'll all say "ha that bit didn't work did it?" .......:)

Well I have lots of "didnt' work" bits round here, but if ya dont' do, ya
dont' know do you?

I actually have prickly pear plant just to the north of this patch and
on a rise of about half a metre ... I've never had fruit off of it and
it just sits there not dying but not growing either, I've eaten the
fruit off other plants and it's not too bad...sort of sweet but not..
almost like a strawberry but yet not ... worth trying though I reckon
they would make some sort of jam or even a savoury sauce like a
cranberry sauce or used as a poultry glaze.... dunno but worth messing
with.

I've got a recipe for prickly pear jam somewhere................

Weve stolen Quandongs from next door but they have nearly always got a
bug inside em by the time we get em, so apart from a quick bite and spit
out we've not had any joy wiv em, I've tasted Quandong jam and thats
really nice.

I love quandongs. I think they are one of the most superb fruits - just
wish I could get a plant or 10. I also love quinces which many people dont'
like at all.

ok have I answered everything? .... prolly not but I gotta go try to get
a pic of this little Myoporum ...

Great.

Farm1 wrote:

I had a really good experience this year with horse poop and leaves from
exotic trees/weisteria spread on one of my veg beds which has rotten soil.

I have found a fabulous non ending supply of poops already piled and all I
have to do is shovel 'em into the back of my truck. I weeded and watered
this veg bed, threw a load of poops on top and then topped that with a load
of autumn leaves (I did this in about early summer as the leaves had just
lain in a quiet corner doing nuttin all of winter - I knew summer here would
be a stinker so didn't even try to do anything in that particular rotten
bed). It got infrequent watering (prolly about once a month) and I've only
recently scraped the leaves off and dug it over and planted it with all
sorts of veg (bok choi, broccoli, English spinach, silverbeet, 2 types of
lettuce and some space left over for succession plantings of more spinach
which we love). It is full of worms and it's very ahrd to credit the
difference in the quality of the soil.

Thats hoss poop for ya.
On Saturday's we have an ABC radio, gardening, phone in, talk back
programme and the "experts" on there say horse manure is (Emphasis this
bit loudly over the microphone) Absolutely no good for gardens ....

Any poop is good poop in my book

I think my experiences with this bed and some of the other observations
we've made this summer is the reason why I've been wittering on about shade.
I've written before about my water repellent soil and given how little
watering this bed got (and I know it was water reppellent at some stages as
I checked) and I've used horse poop before (but not in quite the same way)
I'm wondering about he effects of shading the soil with both the poops and
the leaves. The worms just got on with it and could operate in the dark. I
dunno perhaps I'm just ranting, but I do believe that the dark and the mulch
may have been more of a help than I could have ever thought. I was sooooooo
****ed of by this bed (and the rest of the garden in general) and soooooo
****ed off by the sort of summer we had (hot and dry, hot and dry and windy,
hot and dry etc etc etc) that I far less than I normally would have. I had
odd bursts of activity in between severe ****edoffedness attacks but I am
now very impressed with this bed and it is probably better than any others
that I have.


Regarding the trees/shade and wind protection ...you're rushing me,:-)


Sorry, but I have begun to think that it is ratehr important :-))

Me too but ya workin me to a frazzle ...


Waht about moving both of those plans up a bit? They could certainly help
in your soil improvement plans given that both need to be fed but all output
goes back to the soil. (And realistically they are both more productive
than horses but don't tell your missus I said that :-))

I will tell her if ya don't stop sounding like her :-)

I need to give the chooks a run where they can do most good but have a
movable (by 2 peeps preferably)chook protection abode that will let me
give em a run to different areas. .... but I'll get a round tuit ...honest.


I've got a recipe for prickly pear jam somewhere................

I would have been disappointed if you hadn't :-)


I love quandongs. I think they are one of the most superb fruits - just
wish I could get a plant or 10.

Ya know they are supposed to be planted with another plant? not one of
the ones on the block next door to us have another plant anywhere near
em, or at least not near enough to suggest the seed had been planted
alongside the roots of another plant which I thought was a bit strange
.... maybe they killed the other plant off by some parasitic feeding off
of it ????

Pete

"pete" wrote in message
On Saturday's we have an ABC radio, gardening, phone in, talk back
programme and the "experts" on there say horse manure is (Emphasis this
bit loudly over the microphone) Absolutely no good for gardens ....

I suspect that in terms of fertility it isn't much use (chook or cow being
better) but in terms of soil amendment for friability I think it's wonderful

Any poop is good poop in my book

Yup.


Sorry, but I have begun to think that it is ratehr important :-))

Me too but ya workin me to a frazzle ...

Sorry. I'll stop.

I love quandongs. I think they are one of the most superb fruits - just
wish I could get a plant or 10.

Ya know they are supposed to be planted with another plant?

Do you mean another quandong plant? But no, I didn't know that they needed
to be planted near anything.

Farm1 wrote:
"pete" wrote in message

On Saturday's we have an ABC radio, gardening, phone in, talk back
programme and the "experts" on there say horse manure is (Emphasis this
bit loudly over the microphone) Absolutely no good for gardens ....


I suspect that in terms of fertility it isn't much use (chook or cow being
better) but in terms of soil amendment for friability I think it's wonderful


Well I'm finding that it works pretty well on soil that without it would
grow nothing, though maybe that same soil would be fertile to a degree
if it wasn't saline ... which sort of proves your statement above about
friability and mine earlier about texture ...which no doubt if we tried
hard enough we could prove are the same thing :-) ....

I find chook poo is great as a Nitrogen fertiliser but is lacking in
Phosphorous and Potassium whereas most of the others have a more rounded
concentration of all 3, I find my brassica's go purple at plant out
time using just horse manure, but as it breaks down and the soil
improves they grow like wildfire, maybe the Nitrogen is unavailable
early on in the process ? or maybe its just that brassica's need more
Nitrogen than hoss poo can supply at that particular time, I'd always
assumed it was the richness or freshness that was causing the purple
colour and as ages things improve.

I always thought hoss poo was lacking in Nitrogen but lately I've been
thinking that it has enough for it to be considered a good all round
fertiliser if its incorporated with enough soil to allow the growth of
beneficial bacteria, fungi and insects to break it down sufficiently to
"allow" it to release those nutrients for plants to use when they need
it.



I love quandongs. I think they are one of the most superb fruits - just
wish I could get a plant or 10.

Ya know they are supposed to be planted with another plant?


Do you mean another quandong plant? But no, I didn't know that they needed
to be planted near anything.

They do well with lower growing stuff ... native grasses or low shrubs,
they actually feed from the roots of the host plant.

This link may be useful http://farrer.riv.csu.edu.au/ASGAP/s-acu.html

The Quandongs near us are growing in pure Shellgrit ..old stuff that's
been there probably thousands of years, it's broken down to basically
nothing more than rough sand grain size and of course has excellent
drainage but probably little else and our low rainfall doesn't help,
though if we had higher rainfall maybe it would be worse for any
nutrient would be leached through quicker.

I think dry and very well drained is the key for established Quandongs
...though young plants must be kept moist to get em started.

Ya see how edumacational this group is?

Pete

pete wrote:

I always thought hoss poo was lacking in Nitrogen but lately I've been
thinking that it has enough for it to be considered a good all round
fertiliser if its incorporated with enough soil to allow the growth of
beneficial bacteria, fungi and insects to break it down sufficiently to
"allow" it to release those nutrients for plants to use when they need it.


I was searching for Quandong stuff and got sidetracked and found this
site which deals with mycorrhiza fungi.

http://www.ffp.csiro.au/research/mycorrhiza/intro.html

Which I found particularly interesting cos I reckon the fungi I am
finding in the horse poo enhanced rows (I showed the fungi in one pic on
my web site) are the reason things are growing.

Also this site http://www.global-garden.com.au/burnley/may97dte.htm

....below are a couple of quotes form that site


" Fungi are organisms consists of very fine filaments called hyphae that
can spread for metres through the soil taking up nutrients. Plants in a
mycorrhizal relationship have increased uptake of nitrogen, phosphorus,
micronutrients and water due to the large surface area of the fungal
hyphae. The result of this increased uptake is larger and healthier
plants. Unlike plants, fungi do not contain chlorophyll and therefore
need a source of energy. In return for providing nutrients to the plant
the fungi receive sugars."

and

"Soil chemistry and structure

Mycorrhiza can improve plant growth and reduce the need for large
amounts of fertiliser but have other benefits as well. Mycorrhizal fungi
can influence soil chemistry and structure. They produce an array of
chemicals such as enzymes and organic acids that are secreted into the
soil. These chemicals break down otherwise unavailable minerals that are
then absorbed by the fungus and transferred to the plant. The structure
of the soil is improved by the presence of mycorrhizal hyphae as they
spread through the soil binding particles and reducing soil erosion. The
presence of mycorrhiza and the production of the chemical residues help
to form stable soil aggregates that bind organic matter and associated
nutrients, improving soil structure and stability"

I knew I was on the right path with the soil Structure thing but I had
no idea of the proper names for what was happening.

Hope you find it as interesting as I did ....if not ... if it's actually
very boring..... it just proves what a nerd I am dunnit?

Pete

"pete" wrote in message
Farm1 wrote:

I suspect that in terms of fertility it isn't much use (chook or cow
being
better) but in terms of soil amendment for friability I think it's
wonderful


Well I'm finding that it works pretty well on soil that without it would
grow nothing, though maybe that same soil would be fertile to a degree
if it wasn't saline ... which sort of proves your statement above about
friability and mine earlier about texture ...which no doubt if we tried
hard enough we could prove are the same thing :-) ....

Prolly :-))

I always thought hoss poo was lacking in Nitrogen but lately I've been
thinking that it has enough for it to be considered a good all round
fertiliser if its incorporated with enough soil to allow the growth of
beneficial bacteria, fungi and insects to break it down sufficiently to
"allow" it to release those nutrients for plants to use when they need
it.

I like to use it with the odd sprinkle of Dynamic Lifter added now and then.
I also add the odd bit of cow manure when I can be bothered to go out with
my wheelbarrow (whcih is when it isn't stinking hot)

I've come to like dynamic Lifter a lot as it really seems to give the plants
a bit of a kick along but I don't use much of it. I do tend to use a bit of
liquid "Black jack" and the odd bit of seaweed emulsion but both of these
tend to be as and when I remember them rather than as a regular thing.


Do you mean another quandong plant? But no, I didn't know that they
needed
to be planted near anything.

They do well with lower growing stuff ... native grasses or low shrubs,
they actually feed from the roots of the host plant.

This link may be useful http://farrer.riv.csu.edu.au/ASGAP/s-acu.html

Most interesting - thanks for the link. I'd love to get some so may try
with some fo the rare palant nurseries this winter.

Ya see how edumacational this group is?

I've always known that :-))

"pete" wrote in message

I was searching for Quandong stuff and got sidetracked and found this
site which deals with mycorrhiza fungi.

I knew I was on the right path with the soil Structure thing but I had
no idea of the proper names for what was happening.

Most interesting. I do know however that mushroom fungi has a nasty effect
on grass leaving the spot where the fungi is as bear as a badgers bum.

I have huge fairy rings in our "lawn" and even when the rest of the grass is
lush in spring, I can see where the fariy rings are (I'm not going to do
anything about it though because I can have a meal of lovely fresh mushrooms
just from wandering round the lawn)

Farm1 wrote:
"pete" wrote in message

Farm1 wrote:


I suspect that in terms of fertility it isn't much use (chook or cow

being

better) but in terms of soil amendment for friability I think it's

wonderful

Well I'm finding that it works pretty well on soil that without it would
grow nothing, though maybe that same soil would be fertile to a degree
if it wasn't saline ... which sort of proves your statement above about
friability and mine earlier about texture ...which no doubt if we tried
hard enough we could prove are the same thing :-) ....


Prolly :-))


I always thought hoss poo was lacking in Nitrogen but lately I've been
thinking that it has enough for it to be considered a good all round
fertiliser if its incorporated with enough soil to allow the growth of
beneficial bacteria, fungi and insects to break it down sufficiently to
"allow" it to release those nutrients for plants to use when they need
it.


I like to use it with the odd sprinkle of Dynamic Lifter added now and then.
I also add the odd bit of cow manure when I can be bothered to go out with
my wheelbarrow (whcih is when it isn't stinking hot)

I've come to like dynamic Lifter a lot as it really seems to give the plants
a bit of a kick along but I don't use much of it. I do tend to use a bit of
liquid "Black jack" and the odd bit of seaweed emulsion but both of these
tend to be as and when I remember them rather than as a regular thing.



Do you mean another quandong plant? But no, I didn't know that they

needed

to be planted near anything.

They do well with lower growing stuff ... native grasses or low shrubs,
they actually feed from the roots of the host plant.

This link may be useful http://farrer.riv.csu.edu.au/ASGAP/s-acu.html


Most interesting - thanks for the link. I'd love to get some so may try
with some fo the rare palant nurseries this winter.


Ya see how edumacational this group is?


I've always known that :-))

Sorry I'm a bit incommunicado at the moment Fran ... I have a new
grandson who is taking all my attention :)

I can't wait to get him in the garden, his mum says I have to use one of
them sling thingies ... papoose?? to carry him around while I'm
planting stuff ...being the sensitive new age guy that I am, I just hope
he doesn't mind the fag burns on his forehead ....

Pete

Janet Baraclough wrote:

Congratulations Grandpa :-)

TY :) he's a little ripper ...pretty cute for a skinny kid.


I can't wait to get him in the garden, his mum says I have to use one of
them sling thingies ... papoose?? to carry him around while I'm
planting stuff ...being the sensitive new age guy that I am, I just hope
he doesn't mind the fag burns on his forehead ....


More like his feet, I dimly recall from bending over wearing a baby
in a slingthingy....

I wondered bout that ... I was thinkin maybe some bailing twine, or
perhaps a bit of chain with dog clips to fasten us together I could cut
a bit off the length I keep on the tractor for pulling star droppers,
that should hold him.

Of course later on he'll fit in the barrow, but at less than 2 kilo's at
the moment ya could drop him in the potato trench and wonder where he's
gorn.

Pete

Janet Baraclough wrote:

True story. My friend's feckless husband, alone in the kitchen of
their topfloor flat, holding their newish baby, was taken by surprise
by myself ringing on the downstairs bell. I followed him back up the
stairs just in time to see him retrieve the baby from a coatpeg, where
he'd suspended it by the romper straps :-(

You say that like it's a bad thing :-)

Less than 2 kilos? Put him inside your jumper, Pete..he's not cooked
yet :-)

5 weeks undercooked, but Daughter has renal failure so things were
getting pretty dangerous, he had to have the salad tongues to get him
out and the cord was round his neck, so it didn't go very well as he was
bungy jumping back in ...

They had him in a pie warmer and under grow lights ... I reckon ya could
start seedlings off pretty well in one of them ....
He was 1.83 kilo's when born but he's just topped 1.925 kilos today...
so he's getting to be a big lad ... a couple of weeks and he'll be home,
he's already in with the big kids.

He's eating well and looking great, he's got a big belly and nothing
below it ... just like his grandad really :-)

I'm looking forward to the burping and farting contests, I used to have
em with his Mother but she grew out of em.

Pete

Janet Baraclough wrote:

My sympathies over the salad tongs :-( , men should try that some
time, we'll see who's "new". Hope she improves soon

I can tell ya now ... and anyone else who cares to read ...if I had to
bear the children the human race would die out ...I know women say the
same thing regarding men giving birth and you get no argument from me.


At this point I just have to relate to you a paragraph found while
researching Australian history. It has nothing to do with childbirth but
has everything to do with women's lot in life.

Eyre was the acting Chief magistrate of the Murray district of South
Australia at the approximate time.

***************
Originally published with "Journals of expeditions of discovery into
Central Australia, and overland from Adelaide to King George's Sound, in
the years 1840-1".

An account of the manners and customs of the Aborigines and the state of
their relations with Europeans
by
Edward John Eyre


"Like most other savages the Australian looks upon his wife as a slave.
To her belongs the duty of collecting and preparing the daily food, of
making the camp or hut for the night, of gathering and bringing in
firewood, and of procuring water. She must also attend to the children;
and in travelling carry all the moveable property and frequently the
weapons of her husband. In wet weather she attends to all the outside
work, whilst her lord and master is snugly seated at the fire."

******************************

Oh how things have changed in the last 150 years :-) pass the remote
dear ...... I just had to post that for you and Fran cos I figured you
two would appreciate it .... although it has nothing to do with the
topic per se,(since when has that bothered me) Whilst reading it I
immediately thought "I know who'd appreciate that" :-) see how much I
thinks about ya's?


Are you the first grand-daddy on altpc? How sustainable is that?

I dunno if I am or not... sometimes it feels like I'm the only person
here let alone the only "aged" one.


I'm looking forward to the burping and farting contests, I used to have
em with his Mother but she grew out of em.


I always wonder how people manage to grow out of farting. You could
power a small village on our domestic windfarm.

I don't think it was the farting she grew out of ... just the
competitive aspect. :-)

pete

Here are a couple of links to an inspiring story I saw on Australian Story
last month. While its not completely devoted to salinity, it is about
drought proofing properties and preventing the problems caused by lack of
water.

http://www.abc.net.au/austory/content/2005/s1383562.htm (part 1)

http://www.abc.net.au/austory/content/2005/s1388590.htm (part 2)

Judanne
Tassie


"pete" wrote in message
...
Hi Folks
As some of you know this is a subject quite dear to me because of the
amount of salinity in and around where I live.

I've stated before that I don't believe salinity is THE problem but rather
A symptom of poor soil structure, and I'm increasingly frustrated when I
look for info on how salinity is being managed or addressed.

Most if not all the sources I can find on the net are government sponsored
surveys which seem intent on telling me how bad salinity is and why it's
such a problem and how they will continue to develop models to ascertain
the extent of salinity and how to recognise it ...etc etc etc ....... all
this is necessary I'm sure for the "experts" to gain an understanding of
the so called problem and to help others understand its devastating
effects, and I have no doubt that there are many many people receiving
government grants to fund these surveys and refine their models and salt
mapping diagrams.

Almost all of the info is negative and depressing and virtually states
that we are doomed to be swallowed up by mountains of salt unless we do
something ... the trouble is I can't actually find anyone who IS doing
anything other than devising yet another model or salt map for continued
monitoring ...of course all at great expense in the form of grant money
which ultimately gets passed onto the public in the form of levies and
surcharges.

My question is this .... does anyone know of any information on the net
which shows positive results from methods which can be applied by the
everyday person ?.

Most of the farming resources I read understandably deal with enabling the
farmer to still get a return from salt affected land whilst using
techniques to reduce high water tables and salt content, but I think thy
never actually address the real issue of soil structure Most of the
horticultural areas seem to be on land that is unaffected by salt so there
never seems to be a push within the smaller acreage groups or their
growers cooperatives to address the issue ...its left to the larger
properties and their organisations SAFF, NFF etc because (I presume) the
effects are more noticeable and have the most damage potential to our
primary production.

I don't want to learn how to grow salt tolerant species I already know
what plants will grow in some of the worst effected areas... I want to
create soil that will grow anything that my climate, as dry as it is, will
allow me to grow ...

I'm talking about practical people doing practical, positive things which
have yielded results however small a particular favourite of mine is the
"Greening the desert" by Geoff Lawton

http://www.abc.net.au/northcoast/stories/s727970.htm#

There are both flash presentations and real media version links.

This is the sort of info I'm looking for, I'm already getting some varied
success from trying different things ...as some of you know from my
postings here .... but I'm always looking for others sources of info ...
no more reports, studies or models from well intentioned government
sponsored surveys ... I feel like I've read all of em.

I wonder if anyone would be interested if I put together a simple web page
wiv piccies of my modest efforts in the hopes of helping others ?

stay well, stay happy folks

Pete

"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote
(snip)
Pampas grass is also a noxious weed in some places but here where it is
rather colder than in the weed zones it is a (relatively) smallish and neat
garden clump of about 6 ft high.

Pretty cold here in Tassie, but its been a declared noxious weed here for
some time now.

Judanne
Tassie

"Judanne" wrote in message
...

"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote
(snip)
Pampas grass is also a noxious weed in some places but here where it is
rather colder than in the weed zones it is a (relatively) smallish and
neat
garden clump of about 6 ft high.

Pretty cold here in Tassie, but its been a declared noxious weed here for
some time now.

Judanne
Tassie

I had two clumps in my garden, left over from the previous owners. Neighbour
had his eye on one, so I let his and a friend of his dig it out. They did
this in one day.

I kept scratching my car on the other, as I pulled out the drive, so I
started to dig it out. I think it took me 3 years, in total.

I think it would have been easier to get rid of the car.

In article ,
"Judanne" wrote:

Here are a couple of links to an inspiring story I saw on Australian Story
last month. While its not completely devoted to salinity, it is about
drought proofing properties and preventing the problems caused by lack of
water.

Definite pc influence, isn't there? The idea of retaining the water and
putting it to work as much as possible, even though the pc books tend to
describe it in a European manner. And the concept of succession (though using
noxious weeds in the succession was not a way to win friends and influence
people!). Exciting stuff -- have any Aussie pcers on acreage been doing
anything with this information?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.