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element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
I have noticed that when I burn wood it leaves little ash but when I
burn mostly tree bark, that it leaves a volume of ash that is about 5 times greater than wood. I have asked this question before with no answer. What is the element or chemical compound in tree bark versus tree wood that explains this difference. Is it potassium that the potassium compounds are metabolized into the bark. Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
Yes, you always make a complete ash of yourself when you smoke that wacky
wildwood weed, Archie!!!! Why don't you do an elemental astrological analysis of it using your continuum transfunctioner? Most likely it will be your very own element: halfassium!! wrote in message oups.com... I have noticed that when I burn wood it leaves little ash but when I burn mostly tree bark, that it leaves a volume of ash that is about 5 times greater than wood. I have asked this question before with no answer. What is the element or chemical compound in tree bark versus tree wood that explains this difference. Is it potassium that the potassium compounds are metabolized into the bark. Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
Presumably, the bark is less pure cellulose than the wood, cellulose
ought to burn with no ash, going to CO2, H2O. The bark probably has lots and lots of compounds in it, I don't know what myself, but anything with Na, K, Ca, Mg would presumably leave ash. P.S. For some of those who needed to make wisecracks about a more-or-less reasonable question, you are a much worse contributor to dreck on this board than Archimedes. I'll take this question over babbling about RELATiViTY that doesn't have anything to do with chemistry anyways, any day of the year. |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
At least we don't have marks on our knees like some crybaby who shall go
unmentioned. If you want to be one of Archie's fool sycophants, that's your problem. Obviously, tree bark may be contaminated by soil and dirt particles from the environment. There is no hidden mystical meaning behind it. "Mark Kness" wrote in message oups.com... Presumably, the bark is less pure cellulose than the wood, cellulose ought to burn with no ash, going to CO2, H2O. The bark probably has lots and lots of compounds in it, I don't know what myself, but anything with Na, K, Ca, Mg would presumably leave ash. P.S. For some of those who needed to make wisecracks about a more-or-less reasonable question, you are a much worse contributor to dreck on this board than Archimedes. I'll take this question over babbling about RELATiViTY that doesn't have anything to do with chemistry anyways, any day of the year. |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
Dan wrote: Soil and Dirt particles?! Is that a scientific analysis? Contaminated? Do you see many pure celulose trees? Ideally, you should get CO2 and H2O, but nothing's ideal. You don't get enough Oxygen to get such efficient burning, so, you get a lot of charcoal (near pure carbon), as well as lots of other stuff like nitrates and salts that are absorbed from the soil. We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates I strongly doubt that. Nitrates would not survive high temperatues (of burning wood) especially in the presence of organic matter. Wood ash is indeed rich in what we call as pot-ash and hence the name potassium. An analysis of Oak/Beech/Bracken tree ash was published Archaeometry Volume 47 Page 781 - November 2005. The results for Oak tree ash: % SiO2- 14.62 TiO2 - 0.06 Al2O3 - 0.76 Fe2O3- 0.65 MnO 6.35 MgO 6.87 CaO 31.06 Na2O 0.40 K2O 18.80 P2O5 12.87 SO3 1.09 Co 15.5 Ni 75.7 Cu 178.5 Zn 2112.4 Ge 3.0 As 1.9 Se 1.3 Br 3.4 Rb 107.9 Sr 533.6 Y 3.0 Zr 41.6 Nb 1.6 Mo 6.5 Ag 1.0 Sn 7.5 Ba 3560.3 Pb 46.1 Th 0.4 U 4.7 You could look at some analytical techniques ot detect levels of such nitrates and salts, which should be fairly straight forward, but I'm a chemoinformatician not an analyst.... Happy Ashin' Dan. |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
ahahaha... ahahahaha... Hey, yo!.. Farooq!.... ahahahaha...
That is some kind of super Oak you've burnt there... along with some high class Ph.D. chemist doing his over-unit analysis: % Sr 533.6 Ba 3560.3 Pb 46.1 Zn 2112.4 Eating this ash ought to be good for prostate problems (Zn) .... and great for/as an X-ray contrast medium (Ba & Sr). The Lead (Pb) might be a problem, however there appears to be sufficient P2O5 and SiO2 present to from very, very insoluble Pb-products. Still the enviro shits will declare this to a be a very toxic and hazardous substance... while levying and assessing you with permit charges, user fees and enviro surtaxes... even if you never make or sell any of this miraculous ash... and then the tree huggers will sue you for having burnt such a valuable and endangered plant which has sucked up and decontaminated so more than its possible share of toxic substances from the environment thru'/via its bio remediation.... ahahahahaha.. Thanks for the laughs, Farooq.... ahahahaha..... ahahaha... ahahahanson "Farooq W" wrote in message oups.com... Dan wrote: Soil and Dirt particles?! Is that a scientific analysis? Contaminated? Do you see many pure celulose trees? Ideally, you should get CO2 and H2O, but nothing's ideal. You don't get enough Oxygen to get such efficient burning, so, you get a lot of charcoal (near pure carbon), as well as lots of other stuff like nitrates and salts that are absorbed from the soil. You could look at some analytical techniques ot detect levels of such nitrates and salts, which should be fairly straight forward, but I'm a chemoinformatician not an analyst.... We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates Happy Ashin' Dan. [Farooq] I strongly doubt that. Nitrates would not survive high temperatues (of burning wood) especially in the presence of organic matter. Wood ash is indeed rich in what we call as pot-ash and hence the name potassium. An analysis of Oak/Beech/Bracken tree ash was published Archaeometry Volume 47 Page 781 - November 2005. The results for Oak tree ash: % SiO2- 14.62 TiO2 - 0.06 Al2O3 - 0.76 Fe2O3- 0.65 MnO 6.35 MgO 6.87 CaO 31.06 Na2O 0.40 K2O 18.80 P2O5 12.87 SO3 1.09 Co 15.5 Ni 75.7 Cu 178.5 Zn 2112.4 Ge 3.0 As 1.9 Se 1.3 Br 3.4 Rb 107.9 Sr 533.6 Y 3.0 Zr 41.6 Nb 1.6 Mo 6.5 Ag 1.0 Sn 7.5 Ba 3560.3 Pb 46.1 Th 0.4 U 4.7 |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
In article .com,
Farooq W wrote: Dan wrote: Soil and Dirt particles?! Is that a scientific analysis? Contaminated? Do you see many pure celulose trees? Ideally, you should get CO2 and H2O, but nothing's ideal. You don't get enough Oxygen to get such efficient burning, so, you get a lot of charcoal (near pure carbon), as well as lots of other stuff like nitrates and salts that are absorbed from the soil. We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates I strongly doubt that. Nitrates would not survive high temperatues (of burning wood) especially in the presence of organic matter. Wood ash is indeed rich in what we call as pot-ash and hence the name potassium. Yeah. The potassium nitrate for gunpowder came from under old manure piles. Potash was used for making soap, historically, since wood ash was more accessible than lye before industrial chmistry. An analysis of Oak/Beech/Bracken tree ash was published Archaeometry Volume 47 Page 781 - November 2005. The results for Oak tree ash: % SiO2- 14.62 TiO2 - 0.06 Al2O3 - 0.76 Fe2O3- 0.65 MnO 6.35 MgO 6.87 CaO 31.06 Na2O 0.40 K2O 18.80 P2O5 12.87 SO3 1.09 This much is reasonable -- I'd expect high K and Ca, but the P and Si are a bit of a surprise. I suspect the Si came from the bracken, since some ferns (and notably the non-fern horsetail (Equisetum) concentrate silica, or perhaps it's from dirt. Maybe that explains the high P, too. While wood ash is an excellent source of K, it usually regarded as only a moderate source of P, for fertilizer. Non-woody material is higher in P, Mg and other elements important to plant nutrition. Not sure what Archaeometry is, but if it's analysis of ancient materials, the high silica may be due to infiltration from the soil, an early stage in fossilization. If these numbers come from the residue from an ancient forest fire, it would explain the higher levels of plant nutrients, since a lot of live green material would have been included. Co 15.5 Ni 75.7 Cu 178.5 Zn 2112.4 Ge 3.0 As 1.9 Se 1.3 Br 3.4 Rb 107.9 Sr 533.6 Y 3.0 Zr 41.6 Nb 1.6 Mo 6.5 Ag 1.0 Sn 7.5 Ba 3560.3 Pb 46.1 Th 0.4 U 4.7 I suspect these are in ppt or more likely ppm, rather than %, or we'd be giving up mining in favor of forestry. The amounts of these trace elements probably vary a lot with the composition of the soil in which the plants grew. As for Mr. Plutonium, I can say from personal experience that yes, bark gives more ash than wood, because it contains more minerals than wood. Apparently trees don't pull as much good stuff out of bark cells as they die as they do from the cells that become wood. Note also that hardwood generally produces far more ash than softwood, at least for the North American temperate species I'm familiar with. "Tree" is a descriptive term, unrelated to phylogeny. Trees have evolved many times from different lineages, and conifer trees are unrelated to angiosperm trees. |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
wrote: In article .com, Farooq W wrote: Dan wrote: Soil and Dirt particles?! Is that a scientific analysis? Contaminated? Do you see many pure celulose trees? Ideally, you should get CO2 and H2O, but nothing's ideal. You don't get enough Oxygen to get such efficient burning, so, you get a lot of charcoal (near pure carbon), as well as lots of other stuff like nitrates and salts that are absorbed from the soil. We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates I strongly doubt that. Nitrates would not survive high temperatues (of burning wood) especially in the presence of organic matter. Wood ash is indeed rich in what we call as pot-ash and hence the name potassium. Yeah. The potassium nitrate for gunpowder came from under old manure piles. Potash was used for making soap, historically, since wood ash was more accessible than lye before industrial chmistry. An analysis of Oak/Beech/Bracken tree ash was published Archaeometry Volume 47 Page 781 - November 2005. The results for Oak tree ash: This article is available online (free) at http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...4.2005.00232.x % SiO2- 14.62 TiO2 - 0.06 Al2O3 - 0.76 Fe2O3- 0.65 MnO 6.35 MgO 6.87 CaO 31.06 Na2O 0.40 K2O 18.80 P2O5 12.87 SO3 1.09 This much is reasonable -- I'd expect high K and Ca, but the P and Si are a bit of a surprise. I suspect the Si came from the bracken, since some ferns (and notably the non-fern horsetail (Equisetum) concentrate silica, or perhaps it's from dirt. Maybe that explains the high P, too. While wood ash is an excellent source of K, it usually regarded as only a moderate source of P, for fertilizer. Non-woody material is higher in P, Mg and other elements important to plant nutrition. Not sure what Archaeometry is, but if it's analysis of ancient materials, the high silica may be due to infiltration from the soil, an early stage in fossilization. If these numbers come from the residue from an ancient forest fire, it would explain the higher levels of plant nutrients, since a lot of live green material would have been included. Co 15.5 Ni 75.7 Cu 178.5 Zn 2112.4 Ge 3.0 As 1.9 Se 1.3 Br 3.4 Rb 107.9 Sr 533.6 Y 3.0 Zr 41.6 Nb 1.6 Mo 6.5 Ag 1.0 Sn 7.5 Ba 3560.3 Pb 46.1 Th 0.4 U 4.7 I suspect these are in ppt or more likely ppm, rather than %, or we'd be giving up mining in favor of forestry. My fault... Its ppm for entries below SO3. More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores! The amounts of these trace elements probably vary a lot with the composition of the soil in which the plants grew. |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
Hi,
As it happens, I have done quite a lot of analyses for the various bits of trees (particularly conifers). 14% silica is very high indeed for plant material (though not impossible- rice husks can be 20%). I have analysed bracken in the past for silica, and it would not make 14%. Equisetum just might, but you would need this to be most of the sample! I would think contamination or impregnation were both possible explanations. At least in conifers the bark and wood are generally lower in ash that the needles. In some species silica can be quite high in needles (e.g. spruce at 2% or more), and that can make up a substantial amount of the ash. Best Wishes, Martin Hodson wrote: In article .com, Farooq W wrote: Dan wrote: Soil and Dirt particles?! Is that a scientific analysis? Contaminated? Do you see many pure celulose trees? Ideally, you should get CO2 and H2O, but nothing's ideal. You don't get enough Oxygen to get such efficient burning, so, you get a lot of charcoal (near pure carbon), as well as lots of other stuff like nitrates and salts that are absorbed from the soil. We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates I strongly doubt that. Nitrates would not survive high temperatues (of burning wood) especially in the presence of organic matter. Wood ash is indeed rich in what we call as pot-ash and hence the name potassium. Yeah. The potassium nitrate for gunpowder came from under old manure piles. Potash was used for making soap, historically, since wood ash was more accessible than lye before industrial chmistry. An analysis of Oak/Beech/Bracken tree ash was published Archaeometry Volume 47 Page 781 - November 2005. The results for Oak tree ash: % SiO2- 14.62 TiO2 - 0.06 Al2O3 - 0.76 Fe2O3- 0.65 MnO 6.35 MgO 6.87 CaO 31.06 Na2O 0.40 K2O 18.80 P2O5 12.87 SO3 1.09 This much is reasonable -- I'd expect high K and Ca, but the P and Si are a bit of a surprise. I suspect the Si came from the bracken, since some ferns (and notably the non-fern horsetail (Equisetum) concentrate silica, or perhaps it's from dirt. Maybe that explains the high P, too. While wood ash is an excellent source of K, it usually regarded as only a moderate source of P, for fertilizer. Non-woody material is higher in P, Mg and other elements important to plant nutrition. Not sure what Archaeometry is, but if it's analysis of ancient materials, the high silica may be due to infiltration from the soil, an early stage in fossilization. If these numbers come from the residue from an ancient forest fire, it would explain the higher levels of plant nutrients, since a lot of live green material would have been included. Co 15.5 Ni 75.7 Cu 178.5 Zn 2112.4 Ge 3.0 As 1.9 Se 1.3 Br 3.4 Rb 107.9 Sr 533.6 Y 3.0 Zr 41.6 Nb 1.6 Mo 6.5 Ag 1.0 Sn 7.5 Ba 3560.3 Pb 46.1 Th 0.4 U 4.7 I suspect these are in ppt or more likely ppm, rather than %, or we'd be giving up mining in favor of forestry. The amounts of these trace elements probably vary a lot with the composition of the soil in which the plants grew. As for Mr. Plutonium, I can say from personal experience that yes, bark gives more ash than wood, because it contains more minerals than wood. Apparently trees don't pull as much good stuff out of bark cells as they die as they do from the cells that become wood. Note also that hardwood generally produces far more ash than softwood, at least for the North American temperate species I'm familiar with. "Tree" is a descriptive term, unrelated to phylogeny. Trees have evolved many times from different lineages, and conifer trees are unrelated to angiosperm trees. |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too muchash
wrote: In article .com, Farooq W wrote: Dan wrote: Soil and Dirt particles?! Is that a scientific analysis? Contaminated? Do you see many pure celulose trees? Ideally, you should get CO2 and H2O, but nothing's ideal. You don't get enough Oxygen to get such efficient burning, so, you get a lot of charcoal (near pure carbon), as well as lots of other stuff like nitrates and salts that are absorbed from the soil. We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates I strongly doubt that. Nitrates would not survive high temperatues (of burning wood) especially in the presence of organic matter. Wood ash is indeed rich in what we call as pot-ash and hence the name potassium. Yeah. The potassium nitrate for gunpowder came from under old manure piles. Potash was used for making soap, historically, since wood ash was more accessible than lye before industrial chmistry. An analysis of Oak/Beech/Bracken tree ash was published Archaeometry Volume 47 Page 781 - November 2005. The results for Oak tree ash: % SiO2- 14.62 TiO2 - 0.06 Al2O3 - 0.76 Fe2O3- 0.65 MnO 6.35 MgO 6.87 CaO 31.06 Na2O 0.40 K2O 18.80 P2O5 12.87 SO3 1.09 This much is reasonable -- I'd expect high K and Ca, but the P and Si are a bit of a surprise. I suspect the Si came from the bracken, since some ferns (and notably the non-fern horsetail (Equisetum) concentrate silica, or perhaps it's from dirt. Maybe that explains the high P, too. While wood ash is an excellent source of K, it usually regarded as only a moderate source of P, for fertilizer. Non-woody material is higher in P, Mg and other elements important to plant nutrition. Not sure what Archaeometry is, but if it's analysis of ancient materials, the high silica may be due to infiltration from the soil, an early stage in fossilization. If these numbers come from the residue from an ancient forest fire, it would explain the higher levels of plant nutrients, since a lot of live green material would have been included. Co 15.5 Ni 75.7 Cu 178.5 Zn 2112.4 Ge 3.0 As 1.9 Se 1.3 Br 3.4 Rb 107.9 Sr 533.6 Y 3.0 Zr 41.6 Nb 1.6 Mo 6.5 Ag 1.0 Sn 7.5 Ba 3560.3 Pb 46.1 Th 0.4 U 4.7 I suspect these are in ppt or more likely ppm, rather than %, or we'd be giving up mining in favor of forestry. The amounts of these trace elements probably vary a lot with the composition of the soil in which the plants grew. As for Mr. Plutonium, I can say from personal experience that yes, bark gives more ash than wood, because it contains more minerals than wood. Apparently trees don't pull as much good stuff out of bark cells as they die as they do from the cells that become wood. Note also that hardwood generally produces far more ash than softwood, at least for the North American temperate species I'm familiar with. "Tree" is a descriptive term, unrelated to phylogeny. Trees have evolved many times from different lineages, and conifer trees are unrelated to angiosperm trees. I am surprized at all of the uranium, thorium and lead. A likely inference that we intake uranium, thorium and lead in various plant tissue we eat. I did not see mercury on that list and since coal power stations are notorious for emitting mercury into the air, I wonder how much mercury is in bark of trees. But I know some tree species evolved into a fire resistant bark in order to live in fire prone regions, so I wonder what chemical it is that gives them the best fire resistance. Is it potassium and salts? Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
[Archmed] aka "a_plutonium" wrote
in message ... [Archmed] I did not see mercury on that list and since coal power stations are notorious for emitting mercury into the air, I wonder how much mercury is in bark of trees. [hanson] Not too many plants do store Hg till they wilt. HgMe2 is volatile. The main acquisition of Hg into coal comes during the wet bog phase via sequestering/chelating of Hg by humic acids from mineral leeching over LONG periods of time. These organic Hg compounds then become/evolve into molecules of increasingly more hydrophobic nature as the coalfaction process continues... Hence they/Hg ends up highly enriched in anthracite. [Archmed] But I know some tree species evolved into a fire resistant bark in order to live in fire prone regions, so I wonder what chemical it is that gives them the best fire resistance. Is it potassium and salts? Archimedes Plutonium [hanson] It's not so much the chemicals as it's the structure of the bark that gives the fire resistance. .. And as far as the chemicals, apparently everybody except you knows that, it is these Group V elememts here that do the main assistance in breaking ignition sequence chain events on the molecular level.... Farooq W P2O5 12.87 As2O5 1.9 |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
wrote in message
oups.com... [hanson] Not too many plants do store Hg till they wilt. HgMe2 is volatile. The main acquisition of Hg into coal comes during the wet bog phase via sequestering/chelating of Hg by humic acids from mineral leeching over LONG periods of time. These organic Hg compounds then become/evolve into molecules of increasingly more hydrophobic nature as the coalfaction process continues... Hence they/Hg ends up highly enriched in anthracite. [Archmed] But I know some tree species evolved into a fire resistant bark in order to live in fire prone regions, so I wonder what chemical it is that gives them the best fire resistance. Is it K and salts? [hanson] It's not so much the chemicals as it's the structure of the bark that gives the fire resistance. .. And as far as the chemicals, apparently everybody except you knows that, it is these Group V elememts here that do the main assistance in breaking ignition sequence chain events on the molecular level.... [A.P. writes] Thanks for the info and will keep in my scrap file. Say, you would not happen to live in the Midwest, if my memory is correct you are from Indiana. The reason I ask is that I need Rock Elm seed, Ulmus racemosa (thomasii). Can you get some Rock Elm seed and mail it to me. I will be eternally grateful. Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies [hanson] Sorry, Archie, I am nowhere near from there. It's been 30 years since I have seen a Rock Elm. -- Here, either in Raratonga or in Kauai-Princeville there are only Palm trees and other tropical jungle brush. But I am sure that you can get your Rock Elm seed from http://seedrack.com/indexw.html or http://www.garden-adventures.com/ or even via the USDA, or perhaps some kind poster, who lives where your object of desire grows, will oblige. BTW, should RE not be a native species in your knack of the woods, consult with the enviro agencies first. There may be laws against introducing non native plants. Good Luck, hanson |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
"Dan"
| | We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates for the | production of gunpowder way back when (and may still be, but I doubt | it). Ash is not a known mixture, it just means what's left after | burning. ----------- Sorry. Wood ash was never the source of nitrate, it was, however, the source of potash (potassium carbonate) mixed with the cave (for instance) nitrate (calcium), to convert it into usable potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate being hygroscopic. -- donald j haarmann ----------------------------- As if ordained by Fate, Nitre, that admirable salt, hath made as much noise in Philosophy as in War, all the world being filled with its thunder. John Mayow Ttractalus Quinque Medico-Physici, 1674 |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
"Farooq W"
| | My fault... Its ppm for entries below SO3. More surprising the uptake | of heavy metals especially Th and U by the plants...Barium is | abnormally high or the soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium | ores! | ------------- The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :- Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956. Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium. Description of Indicator Plants and Methods of Botanical Prospecting for Uranium Deposits on the Colorado Plateau. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1030-M. 1957. -- donald j haarmann ----------------------- Science is a collection of successful recipes. Paul Valéry French poet-essayist (1871-1945) |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann"
wrote: "Farooq W" | | My fault... Its ppm for entries below SO3. More surprising the uptake | of heavy metals especially Th and U by the plants...Barium is | abnormally high or the soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium | ores! | ------------- The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :- Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956. Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium. A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably find a ref if someone wants it.) Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think). bob |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too muchash
donald haarmann wrote:
"Dan" | | We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates for the | production of gunpowder way back when (and may still be, but I doubt | it). Ash is not a known mixture, it just means what's left after | burning. ----------- Sorry. Wood ash was never the source of nitrate, it was, however, the source of potash (potassium carbonate) mixed with the cave (for instance) nitrate (calcium), to convert it into usable potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate being hygroscopic. Cave nitrate? Does that mean that bat guano is a usable source for the nitrate needed to make black powder? Or are you referring to stalactites/stalagmites? (The mites go up and the tights come down). Michael |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too muchash
donald haarmann wrote:
"Farooq W" | | My fault... Its ppm for entries below SO3. More surprising the uptake | of heavy metals especially Th and U by the plants...Barium is | abnormally high or the soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium | ores! | ------------- The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :- Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956. Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium. Description of Indicator Plants and Methods of Botanical Prospecting for Uranium Deposits on the Colorado Plateau. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1030-M. 1957. Well that is truly interesting to me. Could I possibly compress one of these high selenium content plants and use that substance electrically? That is, could it be carbonized (such as charcoal) and then further processed without special tools? The selenium rectifier was the first semi-conductor device ever created, not including detector diodes. It was invented in 1933 by C.E. Fitts, and was being built by Sylvania about 1935. If you remember tubes, RCA had the monopoly from 1919 until 1941. Sylvania was a competitor, but they built military stuff, and unlike the tubes built by RCA, Sylvania's were encased in metal, rather than glass. Please see: "Road to the Transistor" http://www.jmargolin.com/history/trans.htm Sylvania built a lot of heavy industrial and military components, and the invention of the selenium rectifier was a way to eliminate a (breakable) tube. They also produced the last tube built in the United States, in 1977. I like to think that if I suddenly found myself to be naked in the wilderness, that I would have the potential to make anything at all that we have now. Unfortunately, selenium is toxic, so the device would have to be well encased. Ah! How to make natural epoxy? More; how to draw wire from a stone? Michael |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
hanson wrote:
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash "Bob" wrote in message ... "Farooq W" | More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially | Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the | soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores! On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann" wrote: The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :- Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956. Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium. [Bob] A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably find a ref if someone wants it.) Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think). bob [hanson] =1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some views from the geos' camp about the popularity & effectiveness of BP. =2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution from the calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4-- is stable only at pH 11 in aq? =3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~ 7) =4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant? =5= and what function does the Si have in the plants? I don't know the answer to your question, but I would look at Equisetum-- aka scouring rushes. They have extremely high Si uptake. As a primitive plant whose chlorosphyll is incorporated in the stems, the Si, is used as a supporting structure. Also, the Na, K, Ca group are also metals utilized by plants. |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
"Jo Schaper" wrote in message ... hanson wrote: element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash "Bob" wrote in message ... "Farooq W" | More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially | Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the | soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores! On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann" wrote: The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :- Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956. Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium. [Bob] A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably find a ref if someone wants it.) Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think). bob [hanson] =1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some views from the geos' camp about the popularity & effectiveness of BP. =2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution from the calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4-- is stable only at pH 11 in aq? =3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~ 7) =4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant? =5= and what function does the Si have in the plants? If someone is familiar with the Russian professional literature, this is one of its admirable specialties. Regards, Edward Hennessey |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
"Michael Hearne"
| donald haarmann wrote: | "Dan" | | | | | We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates for the | | production of gunpowder way back when (and may still be, but I doubt | | it). Ash is not a known mixture, it just means what's left after | | burning. | | | ----------- | Sorry. Wood ash was never the source of nitrate, it was, however, the source of | potash (potassium carbonate) mixed with the cave (for instance) nitrate (calcium), | to convert it into usable potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate being hygroscopic. | | | | | Cave nitrate? | | Does that mean that bat guano is a usable source for the nitrate needed | to make black powder? Or are you referring to stalactites/stalagmites? | (The mites go up and the tights come down). | | Michael --------- No. Bat caves are too dry. For more than you ever wanted to know 'bout "vertebrate excretion"; see - George Evelyn Hutchinson's Survey of Contemporary Knowledge of Biogeochemistry 3. The Biogeochemistry of Vertebrate Excretion Bulletin of the American Museum of Natural History Volume 96 New York : 1950 554 pages! ------------ Native deposits of saltpeter (saltpetre – British) are well known as the white efflorescence on walls (saltpetre rot) which can be either — potassium nitrate; sodium nitrate (Chile saltpeter); or calcium nitrate (Norwegian saltpeter). And soil saltpeter. Needham states that the solonchak soils in Honan province yielded more than 30,000 lbs. of saltpetre per acre p.a. (ca 1961). Other well known deposits are [were] in the Tirhût district, Bengal, India. (From which comes “Bengal Lance”) Egypt, Persia, Hungry (near Debreczin), Apulia, Kentucky, Indiana (Wyandotte cave from which salt peter for the War of 1812 was obtained, the cave continued in operation until 1817), &c., “none of which [are] of more than local importance now” [1913]. The largest deposits are those found in the Chilean cliché deposits. The Chilean nitrate deposits are of a strange nature. Following several unexplained explosions in the gunpowder works at Stragare and Obilicévo (ca 1894). Chemical analysis of the nitrate found that it contained as much as 2.5% perchlorate! Suffering from more information than time. I will supply the following bibliography for those suffering from a lack of details:- Burton Faust, Saltpetre Mining in Mammoth Cave, KY, The Filson Club, 1967. Angelo I George, The Saltpeter Empires of Great Saltpetre Cave and Mammoth Cave. H.M.I. Press 2001. US Geological Survey Bulletins:- 523 Hoyt S Gale, [US] Nitrate Deposits. 620B Nitrate Deposits in Southern Idaho and Eastern Oretgon. 1915 724 LF Noble & et al, Nitrate Deposits in the Amargosa Region Southeastern California. 1922 820 LF Noble, Nitrate Deposits in the Southeastern California: With notes on Deposits in Southeastern Arizona and Southwestern New Mexico. 1931. 838 GR Mansfield & L Boardman, Nitrate Deposits of the United States. 1932. AW Allen, The Recovery of Nitrate from Chilean Caliche. Charles Griffin & Co. London 1921. Joseph Needham, Science and Civilisation in China. Part 7: Military Technology; The Gunpowder Epic. Cambridge University Press 1986. C Haeussermann, The Occurrence of Perchlorate in Saltpetre. Cemiker Zeitung 1894 (18):1206-1207. V Panastovic, Elimination of Potassium Perchlorate from Saltpetre. Chemiker Zeitung 1894 (18):1567. George E Ericksen, The Chilean Nitrate Deposits. American Scientist July- August 1983 366-374. Saltpetre, Nitrate of Potassa. In: R Wagner, A Handbook of Chemical Technology. D Appleton & Co. 1872 (Reprinted by Lindsay Publications) Potassium nitrate (Saltpetre, nitre). In: Sir Edward Thorpe, A Dictionary of Applied Chemistry Volume 4 pg. 363-367. Longman’s Green, London. 1913. Potash, Nitrate of. In: R Hunt, Ure's Dictionary of Arts, Manufactures, and Mines. Volume 3, pg 594-597. Longman's Green, London. 1878. VIIth International Congress of Applied Chemistry by it Explosive Section — Under the Auspices of. The Rise and Progress of the British Explosives Industry. London : Whittaker and Co. 1909. ------------------- digesteth, fermenteth, and ripeneth The old method of obtaining saltpetre was to collect vegetable and animal refuse containing nitrogen, the sweepings of slaughter- houses, weeds, etc., into heaps and to mix this with limestone, old mortar, earth and ashes. These heaps were sheltered from the rain, and kept moist from time to time with runnings from stables and other urine. As late as in the reign of James I (1624), we find in an indenture between the King and Thomas Warricke, Peter Sparke, Michael Townshend and John Fells, the statement that " for making of the saltpetre which hath been formerly and now is made it has been found a matter of mere necessity to dig houses, cellars, vaults, stables, dovehouses and such like places, wherewith divers of his Majesty's subjects have found themselves grieved. " We are also informed that the conveyance of the liquors, vessels, tubs, ashes, etc, from place to place in carts had been a frequent source of nuisance and litigation. The above persons purporting to have invented a new process for making saltpetre undertake to make it " as good and perfect as any hath formerly been, and shall be vented at cheaper and easier rates than formerly his Majesty or his loving subjects have paid for-the same, which said saltpetre as His Majesty is informed is to be or may be made of an artificial mixture or composition of chalk, all sorts of limestone and lime, marl, divers minerals, and other nitrous mines and other kind of ordinary earth, street dirt, or rubbish, stable dung, emptying of vaults, the excrements of all living creatures, their bodies putrified, all vegetables putrified or rotted, or the ashes, of them, and these or any of these mixed together in proportion as they may be most conveniently had, and shall be found most useful in such places where the said works shall be thought fit to be erected, which said artificial mixture or composition of any or all the foresaid ingredients is often times moistened with urine of men and beasts, petre, or nitrous wells, and springs, and all other concrete juices and blood of all sorts as can be gotten, and shall be fit and convenient for it, and divers times turned and removed, by which means the mixture in time digesteth, fermenteth, and ripeneth, from whence there is engendered the seed or mine of saltpetre which afterwards is to be extracted with common water, urine, the water of petre or nitrous wells, and springs, and then either breathed away in the sun or air, or stoved with gentle heat or boiled with a stronger fire with his proper additament of ashes, lime, and such like for separating the common salt and other mixtures naturally growing in the liquor and afterwards refined into perfect saltpetre. " The King then granted the patentees licence to exercise their invention for a term of twenty-one years and to set up houses for preparing the artificial earth, etc. On 26th December of the same year " was issued a proclamation, commanding that no dovehouses or cellars be paved, except that part of the cellars where the wine and beer is laid, in order that the growth of saltpetre might not be obstructed." (Patent Roll, 22 James I, part 4, No. 9 dorso.) --------------- 1630, 14th February. Sir Francis Seymour to Secretary Coke. The saltpetre men care not in whose houses they dig, threatening men that by their commission they may dig in any man's house, in any room, and at any time, which will prove a great grievance to the country. In the town where the writer lives they have digged up some malting rooms, and threaten to dig more. They dig up the entries and halls of divers men. If any oppose them they break up men's houses and dig by force. They make men carry their saltpetre at a groat a mile, and take their carriages in sowing time and harvest, with many other oppressions. Hopes that these men may not be allowed to strain their commission. The saltpetre man's name for Wilts is Hellyer. (S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxi, No. i.) 1630, 20th February. Petition of Hugh Grove, Deputy for making saltpetre to the Lords of the Admiralty. Complains of Thomas Stallam and others of Thetford for refusing to carry saltpetre liquors. Prays that they may be sent for by warrant. (S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxi,,No. 35) 1630, 6th March. Gabriel Dowse and others to the Lords of the Admiralty. The complaints of wrongs committed by Stevens the saltpetre man are so great that they had not been able to reduce them into method. Pray a respite of their certificate for a fortnight or three weeks. (S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxii, No. 40' 1630, 23rd March. Thos. Bond to Nicholas. Understands Lords of the Admiralty have referred the collection of the proofs against the saltpetre men to two knights. . . . saltpetre men make their vaunts that they will get their Iiberty and carry themselves in the country as formerly. . . . If the saltpetre men go down without redress of wrongs it will despair into the heart of the country.... (S. P. Dom. Charles vol. clxiii, No. 40) 1630 30th April. Sir William Russell, Sir John Wolsterholme, and Sir Kenelm Digby to the Lords of the Admiralty. Report on consideration of the complaints and examinations sent in against Mr. Hilliard and Mr. Stephens, saltpetre men and their servants. According to the proofs there is no part of their commission which they have not extremely abused. As in digging in all places without distinction, as in parlours, bedchambers, threshing and malting floors yea, God's own house they have not forborne; so they respect not times, digging in the breeding time in dovehouses, and working sometimes a month together, whereby the flights of doves are destroyed; and without respect to harvest time in barns and in malting houses, when green malt is upon the floor; and bedchambers, placing their tubs by the bedside of the old and sick, even of women in childbed, and persons on their death-beds. They have undermined walls, and seldom fill up the places they have digged. In taking up, cart they observe no seasons, and charge more carts than are needful, discharging some again for bribes, and overload the carts they employ. They do not pay the prices for carriage required by the commission. They take up coals not only where they a sold but from those that have fetched them 20 or 30 miles by land for their own winter's provision. They recommend that the offenders should be punished, and that the commission be taken in, and a new one made out, with restrictions designed to put an end to the abuses complained of (S. P. Dom. Charles 11 vol. clxv, No. 38.) 1630, 26th June. Petition of Nicholas Stephens, Deputy saltpetre men to the Lords of the Admiralty. The Lords having directed Attorney General to proceed against him in the especially in the charge of digging in the Norton, he begs them to consider the declaration annexed, to withdraw the order for proceeding in the Star Chamber. Annexing the declaration above alluded to. At a time great want of saltpetre he removed only some waste and unnecessary part of the soil of the church of Chipping Norton, as with the concurrence of the parishioners and ministers he had done in the churches of Coventry, Warwick, and Oxford. Other digging was done in his absence by his servant, whom he cast into Oxford gaol, and made satisfaction to the parishioners. (S. Dom. Charles I, vol. clx, No. 46.) 1630, July. Petition of Thomas Hilliard, one of the saltpetre men, on behalf of himself and his servants to the Lords of the Admiralty. By commission dated April 28, 5 Charles I, they were authorized to work for petre in the houses of any of His Majesty's subjects, and within privileged places. About January last, petitioner's workmen endeavoured to dig in the pigeon house of Thomas Bond, who disobeyed the commission, and complained against petitioner, and in February last procured him and his workmen to be sent for by warrant. They have ever since remained prisoners. Pray to be dismissed. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. clxxi, No. 79.) 1631, 16th March. Thomas Thornhill to the Lords of the Admiralty. He complains of endeavours made to prevent the search for saltpetre, by laying soap ashes on the earth, paving cellars with stone, or filling them with gravel. (S. P. Dom Charles I, vol. clxxxvi, No. 102.) 1631, April. Requests of Stephen Barrett, John Vincent, Thomas Hilliard, and five others, the Deputies of the Lords of the Admiralty for making saltpetre, to the same Lords. It being the pleasure of the Lords to renew or alter the Commission under which the Deputies act, they set forth certain provisions which they desire to have inserted in the new Commission for their defence. Among other things, if forbidden to dig in bedrooms, they desire not to be debarred from digging in other rooms in dwelling houses; also that owners of dove houses and stables should be prohibited from adopting measures which, prevent the growth of saltpetre; that owners of carriages may still be compellable to carry the saltpetre at 4d. a mile; that the Deputies may take- wood ashes wherever found at a certain reasonable price; with other provisions framed in the same spirit. (S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxxxix, No. 89.) 1631, 14th June. Matthew Goad, Deputy Clerk of the Star Chamber, to the judges of the same Court. Certificate that in the cause of John Morley and others against Thos. Hilliard and others, it is confessed in the answers of the defendants that some of them dug for saltpetre under the beds of persons who were sick therein, that compositions were taken for discharge of carts commanded to carry saltpetre, that Hilliard hired horses to draw his wife's coach up and down the country at the King's price, and caused the country to carry coals for the work of saltpetre, and sold the same again to his own advantage. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cxciii, No. 83.) 1634, 14th March. A proclamation for the preservation of the mines of saltpetre. No dovehouse or dovecot or cellar to be paved, and no stables pitched paved or gravelled, where horse feet stand, but planked only. (Rymer's " Foedera," xix, p. 601.) 18th March. The Lords of the Admiralty to the Governor and Company of Soapboilers. Give orders that the saltpetre men are to have the pre-emption of wood ashes, on the ground that saltpetre is a commodity of such necessary use for the King and Public that it ought to be preferred before the making of soap. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxiii, No. i.) 1634, 15th November. Richard Bagnall, slatpeter man to Nicholas. Sends enclosed list of names of those who have lately carried forth their earth in their pigeon houses. If some course be not taken others will do the same, and it will be impossible for the saltpetre men to supply their great proportions, besides destroying the mine. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, Vol. cclxxvii, No. 52.) Annexed list (52. i) above mentioned. It contains names of persons in cos. Oxford and Warwick. 1634, 2nd December. Petition of John Giffard, saltpetre man to the Lords of the Admiralty. His hindrances by refusal of people in Gloucester to carry coal from the adjacent pits to his boiling-house in Thornburg; also because they carry off the earth from their pigeon-houses to manure their lands. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, Vol. cclxxviii, No. 4-) 1634, 26th November. The Lords of the Admiralty to Montjoy Earl of Newport. His Majesty is resolved to take into his hands and disposition all the gunpowder made of the saltpetre of the kingdom, for better furnishing his occasions and those of his subjects. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxxvii, No. 96.) 1634, 2nd December. Petition of John Giffard, saltpetre man to the Lords of the Admiralty. His hindrances by refusal of people in Gloucester to carry coal from the adjacent pits to his boilinghouse in Thornburg; also because they carry off the earth from their pigeon-houses to manure their lands. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxxviii, No- 4.) 1635, 18th April. Admiralty order to enquire concerning complaints of Thomas Thornhill that divers persons in Somerset, contrary to proclamations, have carried forth the earth out of their dovehouses, and divers inn-keepers have paved their stables, by which practices the mine of saltpetre is destroyed. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxiv, f. 115-) 1637, 3rd June. Articles exhibited to the Commissioners for Saltpetre by Christopher Wren, Dean of Windsor, and Rector of Knoyle Magna or Epicopi, Wilts, against Thomas Thornhill, saltpetreman, for damage done by digging for saltpetre in the pigeon-house of the said rectory. There have been two diggings in this pigeon-house, one by Helyar, whom Thornhill then served, about eight years ago, the other by Thornhill in March, 1636-7. On the first occasion, the pigeon-house, built of massy stone walls 20 ft. high, was so shaken that the Rector was forced to buttress tip the east side thereof. On the last occasion the foundation was undermined, and the north wall fell in. The loss to the Rector had been that of three breeds, whereof the least never yielded fewer than -o or 4o dozen, and of the whole flight, which forsook the house, and the Rector stands endangered to the law for dilapidations. Thornhill has refused all recompense, telling the Dean that the King must bear him out. The Dean desires that Thornhill may make full recompense according to the King's pleasure signified on behalf of the Dean, who is registrar of the Garter, at the last chapter of the Order in Whitehall on 18th April last. Underwritten: 8.1. Order of the Lords that Thornhill answer these articles by that day sennight. Whitehall, 3rd June, 1637(S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. ccclxi, No. 8.) SO: The Rise and Progress of the British Explosives Industry Published under the auspices of the:- VIIth International Congress of Applied Chemistry E A Brayley Hodgetts editor Whittaker and Co. London 1909 donald j haarmann ------------------------- "And that it was a great pity, so it was, That villainous saltpetre should be digg'd Out of the bowels of this harmless earth." Act 1, Henry IV. |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
"Jo Schaper" |
| I don't know the answer to your question, but I would look at | Equisetum-- aka scouring rushes. They have extremely high Si uptake. As | a primitive plant whose chlorosphyll is incorporated in the stems, the | Si, is used as a supporting structure. | | Also, the Na, K, Ca group are also metals utilized by plants. --------- Panskinu & Zeeuw Textbook of Wood Technology McGraw Hill 1980 Note - The heartwood of several tropical trees are immune to the attack of marine bores.One group contains more than 2% silica, e.g., genera Licania and Parinari and several special of the genus Eschweilera form S America. Salt (sodium chloride) was/is obtained from plants by several groups of inland tropical native groups. -- donald j haarmann ---------------------------- There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio. Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. The Melancholy Dane |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
Generally it is thought that silicon is taken by plants up as soluble
monosilicic acid, a neutral species. This quite unusual as most elements are taken up as cations or anions. The other element thought to be taken up as a neutral species is boron. Si is thought to be transported through to plant mostly as monomeric silica, but I think in some species the xylem sap may get so concentrated that polymers form. The soluble silica is then concentrated in certain cells- often, but not exclusively at the end of the xylem stream. Above a certain concentration it comes out of solution, and forms solid deposits of amorphous silica (phytoliths). These are not really a "store" as the process seems irreversible. The phytoliths take the shape of the cells etc., and have uses in archaeology and palaeoecology as markers. Functions? Defence against herbivores and pathogens. Helps keep plants upright (particularly grasses). In soluble form it seems to reduce Al and heavy metal toxicity. Hope that helps! Martin |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
"Jo Schaper" wrote in
message ... hanson wrote: element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash "Bob" wrote in message ... "Farooq W" | More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially | Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the | soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores! On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann" wrote: The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :- Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956. Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium. [Bob] A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably find a ref if someone wants it.) Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think). bob [hanson] =1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some views from the geos' camp about the popularity & effectiveness of BP. =2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution from the calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4-- is stable only at pH 11 in aq? =3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~ 7) =4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant? =5= and what function does the Si have in the plants? [Jo] I don't know the answer to your question, but I would look at Equisetum -- aka scouring rushes. They have extremely high Si uptake. [1] As a primitive plant whose chlorosphyll is incorp'd in the stems, the Si, is used as a supporting structure. [2] Also, the Na, K, Ca group are also metals utilized by plants. [3] [hanson] Thanks Jo. AFAYK, is [1], such a high Si uptake, common to all such primitive plants (Fern, Lichen etc)? If yes, then there's here an interesting link to the origin of multi-cellular plant life. In marine plankton, the radiolarians, all do have skeletons made of beautiful microscopic SiO2 structures. What Si chemistry and physics is involved in their existence & growth? -- How & in what form do they extract Si from sea water? What chemical Si-reactions are involved in this transport? What soluble silicates are there in ocean water? I have no problems with [3] presence at all, not even with [2] using the rigid SiO2 networks as a the basic inorganic frame around which the "living" CHNO networks grow and harden (a bit like in a fiber-glass analogy)... But what I have not seen a good/elegnat explanation yet for in what form this Si4+ or H4SiO4 is transported into and through the plant. hanson |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
wrote in message
oups.com... Generally it is thought that silicon is taken by plants up as soluble monosilicic acid, [1] a neutral species. This quite unusual as most elements are taken up as cations or anions. The other element thought to be taken up as a neutral species is boron. Si is thought to be transported through to plant mostly as monomeric silica, but I think in some species the xylem sap may get so concentrated that polymers form. The soluble silica is then concentrated in certain cells- often, but not exclusively at the end of the xylem stream. Above a certain concentration it comes out of solution, and forms solid deposits of amorphous silica (phytoliths). These are not really a "store" as the process seems irreversible. The phytoliths take the shape of the cells etc., and have uses in archaeology and palaeoecology as markers. Functions? Defence against herbivores and pathogens. Helps keep plants upright (particularly grasses). In soluble form it seems to reduce Al and heavy metal toxicity. Hope that helps! Martin [hanson] Thanks Martin. I too would love to think that [1] monosilicic acid, Si(OH)4 or H4SiO4 [2] is the transporting agent for phyto-Si and I have neither any problems with the rest of your assertions. Tell me more about the chem and physics of [2] from rocks like (polyvalent Me-silicates) granite or feldspar [3] into the phytoliths deposits, for it doesn't seem to be a very well known thing. IIRC, mono [2] is stable in water and in rather high concentrations under near freezing conditions, but polymerizes (polycondensates with water loss) quickly to become immediately insoluble as meta- silicate, especially with electrolytes (salt) or higher temps present. Also [2] is disassociates so weakly that even the H2CO3 from dissolved CO2 in water will liberate it out of the rocks [3]. So the explanation for the origin of the necessary [2] for the phyto-Si in nature is an "acceptable" one to me. But now the info available to me for [2]'s next step into the bio domains of the plant gets sparser. What other events/processes do play a role? Does the root system alone do the job or are there symbiotic interplays required? Does the possible presence of Fluoride and Mg / Zn factor in to form these highly soluble Fluosilicates, SiF6--. compounds?... Or do heavy metals like tungsten, W, facilitate the H4SiO4 [2] transport by forming the highly soluble Silico Tungsten acid, H4[SiO4(W3O9)4], .... and/or Mo & V, who in similar fashion together with phosphates do form soluble [2] complexes? ..... or on the organic front does [2] form those soluble 5-ligand coordinates (instead of the usual 4) in the presence of your Xylem-sap, it presumably being mostly a 2-6 C (ring or chain) keto/aldo carbohydrate agglomerate. Is there a known possibility that these sugars can substitute, be or use Si(OH)4 as an ligand and transport this insoluble item [2] in a "clatherated" soluble form thru the system until conditions arise inside the plant where [2] gets "expelled"/precipitated or exchanged and forms your phytoliths? Tell me more, Martin, dudes and dudettes. Gimme some urls. This [2] chem and physics is fascinating, from its mechanism of eroding mountain ranges, influencing climate change, being a necessary building block in the global food chain all the way to GE-plant modification improvement, and the preparation of hi-tech electronic nano sized electronic components. Thanks. hanson |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
"Edward Hennessey" wrote in message
ink.net... "Jo Schaper" wrote in message ... hanson wrote: element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash "Bob" wrote in message ... "Farooq W" | More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially | Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the | soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores! On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann" wrote: The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :- Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 956. Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium. [Bob] A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably find a ref if someone wants it.) Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think). bob [hanson] =1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some views from the geos' camp about the popularity and effectiveness of BP. =2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution from the calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4-- is stable only at pH 11 in aq? =3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~ 7) =4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant? =5= and what function does the Si have in the plants? [Edward Hennessey] If someone is familiar with the Russian professional literature, this is one of its admirable specialties. Regards, [hanson] ahahaha... yeah, yeah, I bet... ahaha... So, what do the Ruskies say?... Even if you don't know, Hennessey, your 2 liner still was good for a chuckle, unless you plagiarized it from the National Inquirer... well.. even then it would be funny and VERY helpful. Thanks for the laugh....ahahaha... ahahanson |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
In article Y9rRf.41547$CI6.33560@trnddc07, Hanson wrote:
Thanks Jo. AFAYK, is [1], such a high Si uptake, common to all such primitive plants (Fern, Lichen etc)? Don't *know* the answer to that one, but seeing lichens and ferns happily growing on clean limestones with 2/10th of damn-all percent silica in their composition, I don't think that all of them *require* appreciable environmental silicon. In marine plankton, the radiolarians, all do have skeletons made of beautiful microscopic SiO2 structures. Radiolarians ... yes, many produce siliceous skeletons. Some produce strontium sulphate skeletons. some produce no skeletons. But radiolaria are only a relatively small part of the general planktonic fauna and flora. But what I have not seen a good/elegnat explanation yet for in what form this Si4+ or H4SiO4 is transported into and through the plant. Well, having had to work with silicate-based drilling muds (pH 12.3 and higher - keep those face shields on! And they're an absolute bitch to wash samples in.) I'd suspect that solution-load silicate is moved as a range of complexes with organic compounds for 2 reasons : as you point out, in simple inorganic systems the pH required to keep silicate in solution is high (very alkaline); and the rate of weathering of rocks (and the *style* of weathering) increases rapidly as the plant cover increases, and by implication as the quantities of organic acids and complexing agents increases. But I don't have the chemistry to put any detail on that. Seawater silicate concentrations are (generally) appreciably lower than temperate runoff (river water, essentially), suggesting that there are some organisms or processes in the ocean that are very efficient at removing silicate from the oceans. Come to think of it - ISTR that the effluvia of mid-ocean hydrothermal systems also have a significant silicate input to the oceans, which something is removing. Now where did I read that ... it's relatively recent. -- Aidan Karley FGS Aberdeen, Scotland, Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233 |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
"hanson" skrev i en meddelelse news:_kIQf.196$Km6.54@trnddc01... element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash "Bob" wrote in message ... "Farooq W" | More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially | Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the | soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores! On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann" wrote: The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :- Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956. Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium. [Bob] A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably find a ref if someone wants it.) Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think). bob [hanson] =1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some views from the geos' camp about the popularity & effectiveness of BP. =2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution from the calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4-- is stable only at pH 11 in aq? =3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~ 7) =4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant? =5= and what function does the Si have in the plants? I cann't answer your questions, but I've googled something from the geological perspective. I havn't read this ... it looks promising http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/bi...ezsilica03.pdf My own comment. quote Si++++ makes a geometrically favorably binding with O in the sense that it perfectly fits the dimple between 4O atoms stacked as a pyramid. Al+++ is a small ion too and has exchange with Si. In silicates the SiO4---- tetraedron are considered a building-block, and it has any imaginary crystaline combination with metals, from pairs of tetraeder sharing one O and saturates other bindings with Fe++ or Mg++ through to chains, rings, sheets and frameworks sharing more corners depending of availabillity of Si. Unquote Halfway down the page is an electron microscopic image of opal http://www.grahamblackopal.com/webcontent10.htm My comment: I don't think that anyone knows why these tiny puff-balls of silica forms in such an ordered way. It is basically this mystery and that it could be biologically mediated that cause me to ponder and respond. This beetle knows how http://www.gbjewelers.com/education/...al-beetle.html Replacement by opal. Fossilized wood. Opalisation is a core process that generates a host of semi-precious stones. http://www.microscopy-online.com/Ven.../Stereo/5b.jpg Opal (disordered hydrated silica) http://www.galleries.com/minerals/mi.../opal/opal.htm quote Although there is no crystal structure, (meaning a regular arrangement of atoms) opal does possess a structure nonetheless. Random chains of silicon and oxygen are packed into extraordinarily tiny spheres. These spheres in most Opals are irregular in size and inconsistent in concentration. Yet in Precious Opal, the variety used most often in jewelry, there are many organized pockets of the spheres. These pockets contain spheres of approximately equal size and have a regular concentration, or structure, of the spheres. unquote General info on flint and chert http://www.abdn.ac.uk/geospatial/sum...factsheet1.htm Quote Cryptocrystalline Quartz Cryptocrystalline quartz is simply quartz whose crystals are so small that they can only be seen with the aid of a high-power microscope. It is formed geologically from silica that has dissolved from silicate materials. Over geological time, this amorphous silica gel dehydrates to form microscopic crystals and eventually becomes what we know physically as rock. Cryptocrystalline quartz occurs in many varieties. These varieties have been named based on their color, opacity, banding and other observable physical features. Technically speaking, the two varieties that account for the vast majority of "flint" artifact materials are chalcedony and chert. Other varieties encountered in the artifact world are agate, jasper and petrified wood. Interestingly, petrified wood is usually wood that has becn replaced by agate. This same process also occurs with coral, hence the term "agatized coral". Chalcedony Chert and Flint Chalcedony is a variety of cryptocrystalline quartz with extremely small crystals and a specific gravity (weight under water, a measure of a rock/mineral's purity) nearly identical to that of pure quartz. Due to its very high quartz content and super fine particle matrix, chalcedony has a very waxy luster. Chert is composed of larger crystal particles and has a specific gravity similar that of pure quartz. Due to impurities and larger particle sizes, chert is somewhat less "quartz-like" than chalcedony. Chert is duller and more opaque than chalcedony and its luster ranges from non-existant to very waxy, depending on the individual rock formation. So what is flint? By mineralogical definition, flint is simply black chert. It appears that the term "flint" was originally applied to the high quality black cherts found in England. Over the years names have evolved for local chert formations/deposits that may include the word "flint" and technically speaking these would be incorrect more oflen than not. The reality of the flint verses chert debate is that in most cases it is something like "splitting hairs", there really is very little difference, chemically speaking. Artifact collectors tend to call materials that have a more waxy luster "flints" and those which have less luster to no luster "cherts". The difference between them lyes in their purity relative to pure quartz and their matrix particle size. The smaller the particle size and the purer the material, the more likely we collectors would be to call the material flint. To a purist, we would be wrong. A generalist would say "close enough". Note: Some examples of Flint Ridge Flint are known to be 98.93 % pure silicon dioxide. Unquote Carsten |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
hanson wrote:
"Edward Hennessey" wrote in message ink.net... "Jo Schaper" wrote in message ... hanson wrote: element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash "Bob" wrote in message m... "Farooq W" | More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially | Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the | soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores! On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann" wrote: The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :- Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 956. Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium. [Bob] A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably find a ref if someone wants it.) Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think). bob [hanson] =1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some views from the geos' camp about the popularity and effectiveness of BP. =2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution from the calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4-- is stable only at pH 11 in aq? =3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~ 7) =4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant? =5= and what function does the Si have in the plants? [Edward Hennessey] If someone is familiar with the Russian professional literature, this is one of its admirable specialties. Regards, [hanson] ahahaha... yeah, yeah, I bet... ahaha... So, what do the Ruskies say?... Even if you don't know, Hennessey, your 2 liner still was good for a chuckle, unless you plagiarized it from the National Inquirer... well.. even then it would be funny and VERY helpful. Thanks for the laugh....ahahaha... ahahanson What is your qualification to be an expert on Russian society? We were taught for all our lives that they were the enemy, only to find out later that they were just like us. It seems to me that you ought to curse the politicians who lied to you, rather than the scientists. Michael |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
ahahaha.... AHAHAHA... a new pinko emerged, a Gennady:
"Michael Hearne" who wrote in message ink.net... "Farooq W" | More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially | Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the | soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores! On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann" wrote: The up take of uranium by plants is well know. Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County New Mexico. USG Survey Bull. 1009-M. 956. Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium. [Bob] "Bob" wrote in message om A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably find a ref if someone wants it.) Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think). [hanson] =1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some views from the geos' camp about the popularity and effectiveness of BP. =2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution from the calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4-- is stable only at pH 11 in aq? =3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~ 7) =4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant? =5= and what function does the Si have in the plants? [Edward Hennessey] If someone is familiar with the Russian professional literature, this is one of its admirable specialties. [hanson] ahahaha... yeah, yeah, I bet... ahaha... So, what do the Ruskies say?... Even if you don't know, Hennessey, your 2 liner still was good for a chuckle, unless you plagiarized it from the National Inquirer... well.. even then it would be funny and VERY helpful. Thanks for the laugh....ahahaha... ahahanson [Pinko-Mikey, the commie] What is your qualification to be an expert on Russian society? We were taught for all our lives that they were the enemy, only to find out later that they were just like us. It seems to me that you ought to curse the politicians who lied to you, rather than the scientists. -- Michael [hanson] ahahaha... Hey, Gennady-Mike [1], don't be so fanatic. I am glad that you finally see politics for what it is, but you must be full of Vodka [2] to have concluded what you typed from what you've read... ... BTW, we are talking plant chemistry here, my dear russophile: *** So, what do the Ruskies say? *** comrade Mickey. Thanks for the laughs.... ahahaha... ahahanson PS: [1] Gennady = Russian Toon Superman, --- [2] Vodka = Russian Volks-tonic to become like Gennady |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
The use of the words chert vs flint in the States to describe
cryptocrystalline quartz is based on regional speech variation and state of manufacture, not color, luster, or any objective standards. Archeologists and those referring to human worked rock generally use flint or flints. Therefore, chert nodules can be worked into flint arrowheads. Nobody said it had to make sense. Jo |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
hanson wrote:
"Jo Schaper" wrote in message ... hanson wrote: element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash "Bob" wrote in message ... "Farooq W" | More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially | Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the | soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores! On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann" wrote: The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :- Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956. Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium. [Bob] A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably find a ref if someone wants it.) Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think). bob [hanson] =1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some views from the geos' camp about the popularity & effectiveness of BP. =2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution from the calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4-- is stable only at pH 11 in aq? =3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~ 7) =4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant? =5= and what function does the Si have in the plants? [Jo] I don't know the answer to your question, but I would look at Equisetum -- aka scouring rushes. They have extremely high Si uptake. [1] As a primitive plant whose chlorosphyll is incorp'd in the stems, the Si, is used as a supporting structure. [2] Also, the Na, K, Ca group are also metals utilized by plants. [3] [hanson] Thanks Jo. AFAYK, is [1], such a high Si uptake, common to all such primitive plants (Fern, Lichen etc)? If yes, then there's here an interesting link to the origin of multi-cellular plant life. In marine plankton, the radiolarians, all do have skeletons made of beautiful microscopic SiO2 structures. What Si chemistry and physics is involved in their existence & growth? -- How & in what form do they extract Si from sea water? What chemical Si-reactions are involved in this transport? What soluble silicates are there in ocean water? I have no problems with [3] presence at all, not even with [2] using the rigid SiO2 networks as a the basic inorganic frame around which the "living" CHNO networks grow and harden (a bit like in a fiber-glass analogy)... But what I have not seen a good/elegnat explanation yet for in what form this Si4+ or H4SiO4 is transported into and through the plant. hanson hanson, I am not a botanist, nor a botanic chemist. I would suggest you go to a local botanical garden, or the botany section of a college library and look up such things as 'natural terrestrial communities' 'acidic soil ecosystems''alkaline soil ecosystem'(to see how the other half lives) 'sandstone glade' 'chert glade' 'igneous glade' and any other combination of silic rock name plus landform (prairie, forest, savanna, fen, bog, etc.) As a generalization, more primitive plants do tend to populate more silic environments, (pines on sandstone, deciduous trees on limestone) but these are generalizations, with many exceptions as some trees and plants (blackjack oak, post oak) do adapt to silic environments. A good naturalist can walk through an area and accurately predict either the rock or the plants if they know the other, plus the amount of retained moisture and sun which an area gets. I had to look up all this stuff when I did my thesis--in order to relate water chemistry to some of the plants, and their possible interaction with travertine deposition (i.e., was the water, the slope or the plants controlling deposition) and I found more info than I could absorb or use by just browsing in ecology,agronomy and silviculture texts. |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
"Michael Hearne" wrote in message ink.net... hanson wrote: "Edward Hennessey" wrote in message ink.net... "Jo Schaper" wrote in message ... hanson wrote: element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash "Bob" wrote in message m... "Farooq W" | More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially | Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the | soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores! On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann" wrote: The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :- Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 956. Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium. [Bob] A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably find a ref if someone wants it.) Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think). bob [hanson] =1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some views from the geos' camp about the popularity and effectiveness of BP. =2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution from the calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4-- is stable only at pH 11 in aq? =3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~ 7) =4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant? =5= and what function does the Si have in the plants? [Edward Hennessey] If someone is familiar with the Russian professional literature, this is one of its admirable specialties. Regards, What is your qualification to be an expert on Russian society? We were taught for all our lives that they were the enemy, only to find out later that they were just like us. It seems to me that you ought to curse the politicians who lied to you, rather than the scientists. Michael Michael: Whatever that missing link was saying, I didn't see until your kind post because its prior incursions on our group had already merited the killfile. I do have a bit of that indicated Russian literature here and, if time permits someday, perhaps it will serve as grist for posting. Regards, Edward Hennessey |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
In sci.geo.geology, on Tue, 14 Mar 2006 11:54:18 +0100,
Carsten Troelsgaard sez: I missed this earlier.. ` General info on flint and chert ` http://www.abdn.ac.uk/geospatial/sum...factsheet1.htm ` Quote ` Cryptocrystalline Quartz ` Cryptocrystalline quartz is simply quartz whose crystals are so small that ` they can only be seen with the aid of a high-power microscope. It is formed ` geologically from silica that has dissolved from silicate materials. Over ` geological time, this amorphous silica gel dehydrates to form microscopic ` crystals and eventually becomes what we know physically as rock. ` Cryptocrystalline quartz occurs in many varieties. These varieties have been ` named based on their color, opacity, banding and other observable physical ` features. Technically speaking, the two varieties that account for the vast ` majority of "flint" artifact materials are chalcedony and chert. ` Other varieties encountered in the artifact world are agate, jasper and ` petrified wood. Interestingly, petrified wood is usually wood that has becn ` replaced by agate. This same process also occurs with coral, hence the term ` "agatized coral". ` Chalcedony Chert and Flint ` Chalcedony is a variety of cryptocrystalline quartz with extremely small ` crystals and a specific gravity (weight under water, a measure of a ` rock/mineral's purity) nearly identical to that of pure quartz. Due to its ` very high quartz content and super fine particle matrix, chalcedony has a ` very waxy luster. Yipes, what a horrendously mangled misdefinition of specific gravity. By that definition, water has a specific gravity of 0, and wood has a negative sg. I guess it's a mistranslation of something from another language, intended to be read as "weight divided by weight of an equal volume of water", at least I hope that's the explanation. -- ================================================== ======================== Pete Vincent Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet. |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
a_plutonium writes:
wrote: In article .com, Farooq W wrote: Dan wrote: Soil and Dirt particles?! Is that a scientific analysis? Contaminated? Dust and grit I'd reckon, too. But I know some tree species evolved into a fire resistant bark in order to live in fire prone regions, so I wonder what chemical it is that gives them the best fire resistance. Is it potassium and salts? Probably more to do with the structure of the bark. If it traps a lot of air in bubbles (porous) or between layers of bark, the air will be an effective insulator. A tightly rolled newspaper is difficult to cleanly burn unless you can fan it strongly to burn away the charcoal and blow away the ash as quickly as it forms, otherwise the powdery ash smothers the flame. To wit, the Australian paper-bark tree is very fire resistant, its bark being like a tightly rolled 1000-layer ricepaper newsprint and contains no flammable resin. Is a cork tree fireproof? -- John Savage (my news address is not valid for email) |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
In article , Pete wrote:
` Chalcedony is a variety of cryptocrystalline quartz with extremely small ` crystals and a specific gravity (weight under water, a measure of a ` rock/mineral's purity) nearly identical to that of pure quartz. Due to its ` very high quartz content and super fine particle matrix, chalcedony has a ` very waxy luster. Yipes, what a horrendously mangled misdefinition of specific gravity. By that definition, water has a specific gravity of 0, and wood has a negative sg. I guess it's a mistranslation of something from another language, Yuck. Looking elsewhere ... This large group includes all minerals with the primary chemical formula 5i02 (silicon dioxide) and is most abundantly represented in nature by pure quartz and its many cryptocrystalline forms. Now that looks like OCR gone wrong. I don't recognise the names of the "maintainers" of the page, but looking around, I think it's something maintained by the *geography* department. Can't expect them to get rocks right. Or to walk straight while chewing gum. I'll mention it next time I'm in the department. Or maybe I won't - I might be asked to do the maintenance. -- Aidan Karley FGS Aberdeen, Scotland, Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233 |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
Aidan Karley wrote:
In article , Pete wrote: ` Chalcedony is a variety of cryptocrystalline quartz with extremely small ` crystals and a specific gravity (weight under water, a measure of a ` rock/mineral's purity) nearly identical to that of pure quartz. Due to its ` very high quartz content and super fine particle matrix, chalcedony has a ` very waxy luster. Yipes, what a horrendously mangled misdefinition of specific gravity. By that definition, water has a specific gravity of 0, and wood has a negative sg. I guess it's a mistranslation of something from another language, Yuck. Looking elsewhere ... This large group includes all minerals with the primary chemical formula 5i02 (silicon dioxide) and is most abundantly represented in nature by pure quartz and its many cryptocrystalline forms. Now that looks like OCR gone wrong. I don't recognise the names of the "maintainers" of the page, but looking around, I think it's something maintained by the *geography* department. Can't expect them to get rocks right. Or to walk straight while chewing gum. I'll mention it next time I'm in the department. Or maybe I won't - I might be asked to do the maintenance. |
element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
Bob wrote:
A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably find a ref if someone wants it.) Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think). A.P. writes: Bob, can you say anything theoretical about the periodic chart of chemical elements as to that of fire, burning and ash. Consider that the elements to making fire are oxygen, carbon which are far to the right of the chart in rows 4A, 6A and that potassium of ashes is in row 1A far to the left in the chart. So is there some chart relationship as to fire and burning and the ash remaining afterwards. Is the act of fire some sort of acid base reaction. Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
Resuscitating an old thread, if anyone is still interested. This week's
Nature has an article that appears likely to be relevant : http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture04590.html In article _kIQf.196$Km6.54@trnddc01, Hanson wrote: From: "hanson" Newsgroups: sci.bio.botany,sci.chem,sci.geo.geology Subject: Metals/Inorganics in Plants Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 22:39:54 GMT element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash "Bob" wrote in message ... "Farooq W" | More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially | Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the | soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores! On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann" wrote: The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :- Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956. Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium. [Bob] A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably find a ref if someone wants it.) Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think). bob [hanson] =1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some views from the geos' camp about the popularity & effectiveness of BP. =2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution from the calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4-- is stable only at pH 11 in aq? =3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~ 7) =4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant? =5= and what function does the Si have in the plants? Abstract: Nature 440, 688-691 (30 March 2006) | doi:10.1038/nature04590; Received 5 September 2005; ; Accepted 18 January 2006 A silicon transporter in rice Jian Feng Ma, Kazunori Tamai, Naoki Yamaji, Namiki Mitani, Saeko Konishi, Maki Katsuhara, Masaji Ishiguro, Yoshiko Murata and Masahiro Yano Silicon is beneficial to plant growth and helps plants to overcome abiotic and biotic stresses by preventing lodging (falling over) and increasing resistance to pests and diseases, as well as other stresses. Silicon is essential for high and sustainable production of rice, but the molecular mechanism responsible for the uptake of silicon is unknown. Here we describe the Low silicon rice 1 (Lsi1) gene, which controls silicon accumulation in rice, a typical silicon-accumulating plant. This gene belongs to the aquaporin family and is constitutively expressed in the roots. Lsi1 is localized on the plasma membrane of the distal side of both exodermis and endodermis cells, where casparian strips are located. Suppression of Lsi1 expression resulted in reduced silicon uptake. Furthermore, expression of Lsi1 in Xenopus oocytes showed transport activity for silicon only. The identification of a silicon transporter provides both an insight into the silicon uptake system in plants, and a new strategy for producing crops with high resistance to multiple stresses by genetic modification of the root's silicon uptake capacity. -- Aidan Karley, FGS Aberdeen, Scotland, Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233 |
Metals/Inorganics in Plants
Aidan Karley wrote: I'll mention it next time I'm in the department. Or maybe I won't - I might be asked to do the maintenance. Why would you? You can't even manage your stuck capslock key. "or maybe you won't", ... indeed. Somehow I don't think your very useful around the house, Aidan. Aidan Karley FGS Aberdeen, Scotland, Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233 |
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