Common Names
 

Here's one for you. The British don't seem to care if Americans say elevator,
aluminum, railroad track, windshield, truck, alfalfa, turnip, squash, eggplant,
or even corn for Zea mays. But if you call Pinus equestris Scotch pine, the
British bonsai growers have a fit. Outside the US it is Scots pine. I have
tried to explain that it is listed that way in American dictionaries, but they
insist the dictionary is wrong (not understanding the function of a
dictionary).
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much
that ain't so."
Josh Billings (Henry Wheeler Shaw), 1818-1885

Common Names
 

On 03 Nov 2002 02:12:54 GMT, (Iris Cohen) wrote:

Here's one for you. The British don't seem to care if Americans say elevator,
aluminum, railroad track, windshield, truck, alfalfa, turnip, squash, eggplant,
or even corn for Zea mays. But if you call Pinus equestris Scotch pine, the
British bonsai growers have a fit. Outside the US it is Scots pine. I have
tried to explain that it is listed that way in American dictionaries, but they
insist the dictionary is wrong (not understanding the function of a
dictionary).
Iris,

I think if you called "Pinus equestris" Scotch Pine _or_ Scots Pine we
English'd be very puzzled. If it existed, perhaps it would have to be
called Horse Pine (cf. Horse Chestnut).

Of course if you can produce a specimen from your car boot or even
have a slip tucked under your trouser braces, we might be persuaded.
:-)

Anyway, nowadays "Scottish" or "Scots" tends to refer to things from
Scotland, and "Scotch" refers to one of the finest drinks in the known
universe, aka whisky (note lack of "e"). So it just sounds plain odd
to hear it applied to other things.

But you can always hit the pedants with historical antecedent. There
are plenty of British references to "Scotch pine" or "Scotch fir" at
least down to the early 20th century.

--
Martin (off-duty)
Chandlers Ford, Hampshire

Common Names
 

In article , Iris Cohen
writes
But if you call Pinus equestris Scotch pine, the
British bonsai growers have a fit. Outside the US it is Scots pine. I have
tried to explain that it is listed that way in American dictionaries, but they
insist the dictionary is wrong (not understanding the function of a
dictionary).

"In the North of England and in Scotland, _Scotch_ is not used outside
fixed expressions such as _Scotch whisky_. The use of _Scotch_ for
_Scots_ or _Scottish_ is otherwise felt to be incorrect, esp. when
applied to persons."

I don't understand the reasoning, but there a body of opinion that
"Scotch" is not only incorrect, but also offensive.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Common Names
 

Iris Cohen writes
But if you call Pinus sylvestris Scotch pine, the
British bonsai growers have a fit. Outside the US it is Scots pine. I have
tried to explain that it is listed that way in American dictionaries, but
they
insist the dictionary is wrong (not understanding the function of a
dictionary).

Stewart Robert Hinsley schreef
"In the North of England and in Scotland, _Scotch_ is not used outside
fixed expressions such as _Scotch whisky_. The use of _Scotch_ for
_Scots_ or _Scottish_ is otherwise felt to be incorrect, esp. when
applied to persons."

I don't understand the reasoning, but there a body of opinion that
"Scotch" is not only incorrect, but also offensive.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

+ + +
There is such a thing as a separate Scots [?] language, a form of Gaelic.
Perhaps it stems from there ...

However such things are hard to judge: IIRC the Scottish kilt in its present
form was an English invention imposed by force on the Scots. Yet it now is,
apparently universally, accepted as a badge of Scottish identity.
PvR

Common Names
 

In article , P van Rijckevorsel
writes
There is such a thing as a separate Scots [?] language, a form of Gaelic.
Perhaps it stems from there ...

There is a case for recognising Scots (aka Lallans) as a language
separate from English, but this is a language belonging to the Anglo-
Frisian branch of Germanic. The Goidelic language of Scotland is called
Gaelic, or Scots Gaelic if you wish to distinguish it from Irish and
Manx Gaelic.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Common Names
 

P van Rijckevorsel, writes
There is such a thing as a separate Scots [?] language, a form of Gaelic.
Perhaps it stems from there ...

Stewart Robert Hinsley schreef
There is a case for recognising Scots (aka Lallans) as a language
separate from English, but this is a language belonging to the Anglo-
Frisian branch of Germanic. The Goidelic language of Scotland is called
Gaelic, or Scots Gaelic if you wish to distinguish it from Irish and
Manx Gaelic.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

I guess I should not be surprised that it is more complicated than I
imagined. I have a "Gaelic Names of Plants" and thought this covered it. I
suppose there is a "Scots Names of Plants" as well?

I suppose this Scots is the language of "Kinmont Willie" and the like?
PvR

Common Names
 

In article , P van Rijckevorsel
writes
I guess I should not be surprised that it is more complicated than I
imagined. I have a "Gaelic Names of Plants" and thought this covered it. I
suppose there is a "Scots Names of Plants" as well?

I don't know of the existence of such a book, but there are Scots
dictionaries. The only specifically Scots plant names that immediately
come to mind are "plane" (_Acer pseudoplatanus_), "neap" (_Brassica
rapa_) and "tattie" (_Solanum tuberosum_).

The Flora Celtica website at RBGE gives some Scots names of plants.

http://193.62.154.38/celtica/fc.htm

I suppose this Scots is the language of "Kinmont Willie" and the like?

More or less.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Common Names
 

P van Rijckevorsel writes
I guess I should not be surprised that it is more complicated than I
imagined. I have a "Gaelic Names of Plants" and thought this covered it. I
suppose there is a "Scots Names of Plants" as well?

Stewart Robert Hinsley schreef
I don't know of the existence of such a book, but there are Scots
dictionaries. The only specifically Scots plant names that immediately
come to mind are "plane" (_Acer pseudoplatanus_), "neap" (_Brassica
rapa_) and "tattie" (_Solanum tuberosum_).

The Flora Celtica website at RBGE gives some Scots names of plants.

http://193.62.154.38/celtica/fc.htm

+ + +
Nice, but they seem to list more Gaelic than 'Scots' names.
Something analogous to this Flora Celtica project was done for the Low
Countries in Gent (I believe, might have been Leuven), but in pre-web days.
+ + +

I suppose this Scots is the language of "Kinmont Willie" and the like?

=========
More or less.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

+ + +
Thanks
PvR

Common Names
 

My Webster's dictionary does note that natives of Scotland often
prefer Scottish to Scotch. One definition of scotch is frugal which
has a negative association. However, Scotch pine didn't make it into
Melvin Hunter's article about racist plant names.

"Racist Relics: An Ugly Blight On Our Botanical Nomenclature" by
Melvin Hunter:
http://www.the-scientist.com/yr1991/...in_911125.html

If the people of Scottish ancestry want to complain about a derogatory
use of the term scotch, they should talk to 3M Corporation about their
scotch tape, which was named based on the frugality definition of
scotch.


David R. Hershey


(Iris Cohen) wrote in message ...
Here's one for you. The British don't seem to care if Americans say elevator,
aluminum, railroad track, windshield, truck, alfalfa, turnip, squash, eggplant,
or even corn for Zea mays. But if you call Pinus equestris Scotch pine, the
British bonsai growers have a fit. Outside the US it is Scots pine. I have
tried to explain that it is listed that way in American dictionaries, but they
insist the dictionary is wrong (not understanding the function of a
dictionary).
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much
that ain't so."
Josh Billings (Henry Wheeler Shaw), 1818-1885