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Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind.
European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders in certain conditions. At http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative. Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name? What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where *tamarisk" is cited from 1400. Mike. |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Not absolutely sure, but it sounds Arabic. In Israel the shrub is known as
Tamarisk, where it has a strong smell of vanilla while in bloom and inhabits the most hostile environments. "Tamar" is actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation. -- Rachel http://www.Gnarlodious.com/Cogent/Cogent.html Entity Mike Lyle spoke thus: Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind. European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders in certain conditions. At http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative. Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name? What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where *tamarisk" is cited from 1400. Mike. |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Obviously it is an American name. Only in America is everything with small
scale-like leafs called a "cedar". Wondering how Casuarina escaped ... perhaps it smells wrong PvR Gnarlodious schreef Not absolutely sure, but it sounds Arabic. In Israel the shrub is known as Tamarisk, where it has a strong smell of vanilla while in bloom and inhabits the most hostile environments. "Tamar" is actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation. -- Rachel ========= Entity Mike Lyle spoke thus: Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind. European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders in certain conditions. At http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative. Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name? What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where *tamarisk" is cited from 1400. Mike. |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Gnarlodious wrote in message news:b2394982c555783ecbf6e42c9f85661a@TeraNews.. .
Not absolutely sure, but it sounds Arabic. In Israel the shrub is known as Tamarisk, where it has a strong smell of vanilla while in bloom and inhabits the most hostile environments. "Tamar" is actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation. -- Rachel http://www.Gnarlodious.com/Cogent/Cogent.html Entity Mike Lyle spoke thus: [...] http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative. Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name? What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where *tamarisk" is cited from 1400. Sorry: I can't have made myself clear. I was asking about the new name I've met in the American source I quoted: "salt cedar". ("Tamarisk" is from Latin; though it's not known how it got there. There may be an Arabic connection; but if so, it doesn't seem to be reflected in modern Arabic.) Any info on salt cedar? Mike. |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Dear All,
Just checked in Hareuveni. The Hebrew for Tamarisk is Eshel, similar to the Arabic Athal. The Latin for Tamarisk is Tamarix, so I guess the English comes from the Latin. But where the Latin comes from I have no idea (yet!). Will think about it. Best Wishes, Martin Not absolutely sure, but it sounds Arabic. In Israel the shrub is known as Tamarisk, where it has a strong smell of vanilla while in bloom and inhabits the most hostile environments. "Tamar" is actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation. -- Rachel |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Mike Lyle schreef
http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative. Sorry: I can't have made myself clear. I was asking about the new name I've met in the American source I quoted: "salt cedar". + + + Actually, there appears to be no such name at this link. It is all over the net anyway. + + + Any info on salt cedar? Mike. + + + I guess you will have to go over the American literature of the last 150? years or so to find where it first appeared. The reason why looks easy. PvR |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Mike Lyle wrote:
Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind. European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders in certain conditions. At http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative. Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name? What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where *tamarisk" is cited from 1400. The Dictionary of American English (1938) gives two citations for "salt cedar," one from 1881, the other 1895 (that one refers to the coast of Texas and southern California). -- Best -- Donna Richoux |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Donna Richoux wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote: Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind. European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders in certain conditions. At http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative. Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name? What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where *tamarisk" is cited from 1400. The Dictionary of American English (1938) gives two citations for "salt cedar," one from 1881, the other 1895 (that one refers to the coast of Texas and southern California). OED2 also has 1881 as the earliest citation (from Harper's Magazine). Depending which government site you believe, tamarisk/saltcedar was first imported to the US in either 1837 or the 1850s: http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/1999/990708.htm http://www.nps.gov/whsa/tamarisk.htm |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
(Christopher Green) wrote in message . com...
(Mike Lyle) wrote in message . com... Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind. European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders in certain conditions. At http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative. Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name? What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where *tamarisk" is cited from 1400. Mike. The more common spelling is one word, "saltcedar". It's unrelated to true cedars, but it has scalelike leaves resembling those of the cedars. The name refers to its ability to survive on brackish water, excreting the salt from its stems and leaves. Nothing attractive about the name; it is one of the most noxious weeds in the western U.S., where it was imported as an ornamental and escaped; considerable resources are expended on its control. I don't know that the plant's invasiveness outside its proper habitat makes the *name* unattractive! but of course it's a matter of taste, and not really important here. I was wondering if anybody had some dated examples which might help us find out when the name was first used in print. Mike. |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message . ..
Mike Lyle schreef http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative. Sorry: I can't have made myself clear. I was asking about the new name I've met in the American source I quoted: "salt cedar". + + + Actually, there appears to be no such name at this link. It is all over the net anyway. + + + I'm very sorry: I copied the wrong link. Here's the right one: http://www.cpluhna.nau.edu/Biota/tamarisk.htm [...] I guess you will have to go over the American literature of the last 150? years or so to find where it first appeared.[...] I could do that, certainly. Meanwhile, I live in hope that somebody reading this may have some information on its first printed use. Mike. |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
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Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
In Israel the shrub is known as Tamarisk, where it has a strong smell of
vanilla while in bloom and inhabits the most hostile environments. "Tamar" is actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation. BRBR The word Tamarisk is from the Latin Tamarix. I have known people who cannot pronounce Tamarisk (or asterisk either) and call it Tamarix no matter how it is spelled. In Hebrew the name is Eshel. Tamar is actually the date fruit in Hebrew. The date palm tree is Tomer. Incidentally, the Biblical passages which refer to milk and honey or other fruits and honey, really mean dates, not bee honey. The reason Tamarisk is called salt-cedar is because it is so tolerant of brackish water. It will draw salty water up from its roots and transpire it through the leaves, leaving a coating of salt crystals on the leaves. If you stand under a large Tamarisk on a hot dry day, the moist air coming from the leaves is cooling and refreshing. That is why Abraham planted a Tamarisk tree in Beersheba. Iris, Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40 "If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming train." Robert Lowell (1917-1977) |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
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Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
(Mike Lyle) wrote in message . com...
(Christopher Green) wrote in message . com... (Mike Lyle) wrote in message . com... Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind. European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders in certain conditions. At http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative. Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name? What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where *tamarisk" is cited from 1400. Mike. The more common spelling is one word, "saltcedar". It's unrelated to true cedars, but it has scalelike leaves resembling those of the cedars. The name refers to its ability to survive on brackish water, excreting the salt from its stems and leaves. Nothing attractive about the name; it is one of the most noxious weeds in the western U.S., where it was imported as an ornamental and escaped; considerable resources are expended on its control. I don't know that the plant's invasiveness outside its proper habitat makes the *name* unattractive! but of course it's a matter of taste, and not really important here. Maybe in the sense that "rat" can be said not to be an unattractive name :-) Saltcedar, or salt cedar (the one-word and two-word forms are often interchanged in the same work), usually refers to T. ramosissima and other tamarisks that are invasive and destructive in the western U.S. For example, on Google, 19 of the first 20 hits on 'saltcedar or "salt cedar"' describe the tree as invasive or a noxious weed, or give information on eradication programs. -- Chris Green |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
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Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Martin Ambuhl wrote in message . 77.22...
(Mike Lyle) wrote (17 Jun 2003) in om / alt.usage.english: Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name? What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where *tamarisk" is cited from 1400. Mike. It can't be that old, since COD10 has salt cedar · n. N. Amer. a European tamarisk with reddish-brown branches and feathery grey foliage. [Tamarix gallica.] NOAD has almost the same entry, adding that the family is Tamaricaceae. 'Tis strange that the baby Oxfords cited above have the American term "salt cedar," but neither AHD4 nor MW10CD do. The Britannica agrees that this term names not all 54 species of tamarix: "The salt cedar, or French tamarisk (T. gallica), is planted on seacoasts for shelter; it is cultivated in the United States from South Carolina to California." No, I can't tell you the history of this term. Many thanks to Donna, Ben, and Martin: your sources aren't available to me just now. Would it be too much to ask you to get back with chapter and verse? As AUE regulars may know, but sci.bio.botany readers may not, I like tracing the history of our words; and have a healthy suspicion of what may seem obvious origins. "Saltcedar", for example, seems a quite obvious name given the American tendency to use "cedar" rather promiscuously and the genus's well-known tolerance of saline conditions; but there are plenty of English words and expressions which superficially look as "logical", but which turn out on investigation to have quite different origins. I wanted to be sure. Even the name *Tamarix gallica* once had an alternative *Tamarix anglica*, though I think the species hails from SW Europe. And *Tamarix germanica* is listed by Hillier as *Myricaria germanica*, first known to have been cultivated in Britain in 1582. The two true tamarisks most common in British Isles gardens are *pentandra*, flowering in August, and *tetrandra*, flowering in May, and don't appear on the face of it to have been cultivated in Br before the 19C. But *gallica* is naturalized on some English coasts -- though not, perhaps, as destructively as in some US zones. I think work needs to be done on the precise ancestry of British specimens; and I'd like to know when the various species first arrived in the US. (AUE knows me as a word-hack; but with another hat on I've just done an estuarine garden in which I wanted to include both the common species, to give a longer flowering season. Material wasn't available in the limited time I had, so *tetrandra* it was.) Mike. |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Mike Lyle wrote:
Many thanks to Donna, Ben, and Martin: your sources aren't available to me just now. Would it be too much to ask you to get back with chapter and verse? OED2 entry: salt cedar, a tamarisk, Tamarix gallica, growing as a shrub or small tree in warm parts of the United States 1881 Harper's Mag. Apr. 731/1 *Salt cedars and stunted live-oaks..were the only trees growing from the thin soil. 1973 Tucson (Arizona) Daily Citizen 22 Aug. 58/3 We wound up tramping..through the mud and salt cedars. (No mention of one-word "saltcedar", an equally acceptable variant.) |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Entity Yusuf B Gursey spoke thus:
"Tamar" is actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation. this seems to be the Eric Partridge, "Origins", who sees a possible relation to `ar. tamr , tamar (i.e. from some semitic langauge) "date palm" I did some research on this Eric Partridge and he seems to be on the same track as Isaac Mozeson with his Edenic language: http://www.homestead.com/edenics/ which coincides with my Spectrum language concept in which Tamarisk is harmonic 4478, a quadriliteral word combining these 2 harmonics: http://www.Spectrumology.com/Cogniti..._Ching.html#44 and http://www.Spectrumology.com/Cogniti..._Ching.html#78 This word makes perfect sense in the context of Spectrumology, and my research into the word Eshel makes no sense at all, especially since the ancient word Eshel seems disputed by scholars. -- Rachel http://www.Spectrumology.com |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Ben Zimmer wrote:
Depending which government site you believe, tamarisk/saltcedar was first imported to the US in either 1837 or the 1850s: http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/1999/990708.htm http://www.nps.gov/whsa/tamarisk.htm And here's yet another government website with different information: http://www.nwcb.wa.gov/weed_info/saltcedar.html It is believed that nurserymen on the east coast made the first introduction of saltcedar to North America in 1823. corroborated by: http://www.werc.usgs.gov/hq/pdfs/bozeman1.pdf More on the 1837 date, and a possible etymology for "tamarisk": http://google.com/search?q=cache:www...ome/saltcedar/ By way of Europe and New Jersey, saltcedars came to the Mojave Desert from central Asia, where, according to Christie Robinson, Tamarix is "one of the oldest and most dominant plant genera." From Asia the saltcedar spread to the Middle East and Spain. According to the Audubon Society, the botanical name Tamarix recalls the Spanish river Tamaris. A member of the Desert Crossroads Garden Club in Lucerne Valley, Robinson is employed as education and public- relations coordinator for the Mojave Desert Resource Conservation District. "Saltcedar was first introduced to North America as an ornamental," Robinson said. "The earliest records we have, dated 1837, are from a nursery in New Jersey." |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Gnarlodious wrote in message news:a15c19a71e84f7f8d01f8ef8846fc1a1@TeraNews.. .
Entity Yusuf B Gursey spoke thus: "Tamar" is actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation. this seems to be the Eric Partridge, "Origins", who sees a possible relation to `ar. tamr , tamar (i.e. from some semitic langauge) "date palm" I did some research on this Eric Partridge and he seems to be on the same track as Isaac Mozeson with his Edenic language: I doubt very much all these are what E. Partridge has in mind. http://www.homestead.com/edenics/ which coincides with my Spectrum language concept in which Tamarisk is harmonic 4478, a quadriliteral word combining these 2 harmonics: http://www.Spectrumology.com/Cogniti..._Ching.html#44 and http://www.Spectrumology.com/Cogniti..._Ching.html#78 This word makes perfect sense in the context of Spectrumology, and my research into the word Eshel makes no sense at all, especially since the ancient word Eshel seems disputed by scholars. cognates are found in the principle semitic languages -- Rachel http://www.Spectrumology.com |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
(Yusuf B Gursey) wrote in message . com...
Gnarlodious wrote in message news:a15c19a71e84f7f8d01f8ef8846fc1a1@TeraNews.. . Entity Yusuf B Gursey spoke thus: [The attributions have got hopelessly messed up in this thread: I think not Yusuf, but Rachel said the following:] "Tamar" is actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation. Well, there's certainly no obvious botanical relation! In any case, though my Arabic's very old and weak, I'm not sure *tamr* applies to the tree so much as to the fruit taken separately. Isn't the tree called a *nakhl*? (Yusuf will correct me here if need be.) this seems to be the Eric Partridge, "Origins", who sees a possible relation to `ar. tamr , tamar (i.e. from some semitic langauge) "date palm" I did some research on this Eric Partridge and he seems to be on the same track as Isaac Mozeson with his Edenic language: I doubt very much all these are what E. Partridge has in mind. I'd really treat Mozeson with caution: the "Edenics" website is clearly not for professional use; and he admits that the notion arose before people knew much about philology. But the idea has great power as a poetic conceit, and it's touching to know from the Bible that people were already thinking that way in the bronze age: that really does create the sense of a link across the ages. http://www.homestead.com/edenics/ which coincides with my Spectrum language concept in which Tamarisk is harmonic 4478, a quadriliteral word combining these 2 harmonics: http://www.Spectrumology.com/Cogniti..._Ching.html#44 and http://www.Spectrumology.com/Cogniti..._Ching.html#78 This word makes perfect sense in the context of Spectrumology, and my research into the word Eshel makes no sense at all, especially since the ancient word Eshel seems disputed by scholars. cognates are found in the principle semitic languages I was lost by this point! Mike. |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Mike Lyle schreef
As AUE regulars may know, but sci.bio.botany readers may not, I like tracing the history of our words; and have a healthy suspicion of what may seem obvious origins. "Saltcedar", for example, seems a quite obvious name given the American tendency to use "cedar" rather promiscuously and the genus's well-known tolerance of saline conditions; but there are plenty of English words and expressions which superficially look as "logical", but which turn out on investigation to have quite different origins. I wanted to be sure. + + + Common names are quite tricky. I have only limited faith in dictionaries, although obviously they are great for a quick approximation. + + + Even the name *Tamarix gallica* once had an alternative *Tamarix anglica*, though I think the species hails from SW Europe. + + + This is not the right way to put it. Tamarix anglica is among the synonyms of Tamarix gallica. The exact relationship between these two names may require some work to dig out. + + + And *Tamarix germanica* is listed by Hillier as *Myricaria germanica*, first known to have been cultivated in Britain in 1582. + + + Apparently the family has four (five) genera of which Myricaria is one + + + The two true tamarisks most common in British Isles gardens are *pentandra*, flowering in August, + + + According to the Hillier you refer to (1998 edition) it now is called T.ramosissima (introduced c 1885) + + + and *tetrandra*, flowering in May, and don't appear on the face of it to have been cultivated in Br before the 19C. But *gallica* is naturalized on some English coasts -- though not, perhaps, as destructively as in some US zones. I think work needs to be done on the precise ancestry of British specimens; and I'd like to know when the various species first arrived in the US. + + + Good luck to you. Seems you have your work cut out for you! + + + (AUE knows me as a word-hack; but with another hat on I've just done an estuarine garden in which I wanted to include both the common species, to give a longer flowering season. Material wasn't available in the limited time I had, so *tetrandra* it was.) Mike. + + + On a practical note I was interested in seeing that the family is now judged to belong to Caryophyllales, which is quite fitting considering the sort of habitats it prefers. PvR |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
(Mike Lyle) wrote in message . com...
(Yusuf B Gursey) wrote in message . com... Gnarlodious wrote in message news:a15c19a71e84f7f8d01f8ef8846fc1a1@TeraNews.. . Entity Yusuf B Gursey spoke thus: [The attributions have got hopelessly messed up in this thread: I think not Yusuf, but Rachel said the following:] "Tamar" is actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation. Well, there's certainly no obvious botanical relation! In any case, though my Arabic's very old and weak, I'm not sure *tamr* applies to the tree so much as to the fruit taken separately. Isn't the tree called a *nakhl*? (Yusuf will correct me here if need be.) in arabic, yes, naxl or naxi:l for the tree, tamr , tamar . OTOH, AFAIK some compounds like tamr hindiyy "tamarind". but in other semitic languages for the whole plant (tree). these would be mor relevant in this case. this seems to be the Eric Partridge, "Origins", who sees a possible relation to `ar. tamr , tamar (i.e. from some semitic langauge) "date palm" I did some research on this Eric Partridge and he seems to be on the same track as Isaac Mozeson with his Edenic language: I doubt very much all these are what E. Partridge has in mind. I'd really treat Mozeson with caution: the "Edenics" website is clearly not for professional use; and he admits that the notion arose before people knew much about philology. But the idea has great power as a poetic conceit, and it's touching to know from the Bible that people were already thinking that way in the bronze age: that really does create the sense of a link across the ages. http://www.homestead.com/edenics/ which coincides with my Spectrum language concept in which Tamarisk is harmonic 4478, a quadriliteral word combining these 2 harmonics: http://www.Spectrumology.com/Cogniti..._Ching.html#44 and http://www.Spectrumology.com/Cogniti..._Ching.html#78 This word makes perfect sense in the context of Spectrumology, and my research into the word Eshel makes no sense at all, especially since the ancient word Eshel seems disputed by scholars. cognates are found in the principle semitic languages I was lost by this point! I was lost by the word "disputed." since it has cognates in other semitic languages, I assume it is not a misreading. Mike. |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message . ..
Mike Lyle schreef As AUE regulars may know, but sci.bio.botany readers may not, I like tracing the history of our words; and have a healthy suspicion of what may seem obvious origins. "Saltcedar", for example, seems a quite obvious name given the American tendency to use "cedar" rather promiscuously and the genus's well-known tolerance of saline conditions; but there are plenty of English words and expressions which superficially look as "logical", but which turn out on investigation to have quite different origins. I wanted to be sure. + + + Common names are quite tricky. I have only limited faith in dictionaries, although obviously they are great for a quick approximation. + + + Hell of a lot more reliable than people, though! But what they *can* tell you is when a name was first published. Even the name *Tamarix gallica* once had an alternative *Tamarix anglica*, though I think the species hails from SW Europe. + + + This is not the right way to put it. Tamarix anglica is among the synonyms of Tamarix gallica. The exact relationship between these two names may require some work to dig out. + + + Really? I thought it was plain obsolete, having been based on horticultural practice alone. But I'm not quite convinced that the specimens available in commerce are always correctly named, anyhow. And *Tamarix germanica* is listed by Hillier as *Myricaria germanica*, first known to have been cultivated in Britain in 1582. + + + Apparently the family has four (five) genera of which Myricaria is one + + + The two true tamarisks most common in British Isles gardens are *pentandra*, flowering in August, + + + According to the Hillier you refer to (1998 edition) it now is called T.ramosissima (introduced c 1885) + + + Thanks again: my Hillier is from 1974, and lists *ramosissima* (*odessana*) separately from *pentandra*. It's easy to get left far astern! The '74 descriptions and regions of origin are close enough to make it easy to see that they were very likely to be the same sp. The online RHS Plant Finder kindly displays *ramosissima* automatically if you enter *pentandra*. and *tetrandra*, flowering in May, and don't appear on the face of it to have been cultivated in Br before the 19C. But *gallica* is naturalized on some English coasts -- though not, perhaps, as destructively as in some US zones. I think work needs to be done on the precise ancestry of British specimens; and I'd like to know when the various species first arrived in the US. + + + Good luck to you. Seems you have your work cut out for you! + + + I'll leave the family tree to some hungry graduate student. I'll stick to the published literature! (AUE knows me as a word-hack; but with another hat on I've just done an estuarine garden in which I wanted to include both the common species, to give a longer flowering season. Material wasn't available in the limited time I had, so *tetrandra* it was.) Mike. + + + On a practical note I was interested in seeing that the family is now judged to belong to Caryophyllales, which is quite fitting considering the sort of habitats it prefers. PvR Thanks again: that does make sense. Till the next reclassification. Mike. |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
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Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote
Common names are quite tricky. I have only limited faith in dictionaries, although obviously they are great for a quick approximation. + + + Mike Lyle schreef Hell of a lot more reliable than people, though! But what they *can* tell you is when a name was first published. + + + Depends on the dictionary! Usually a dictionary will have been checked more often than what a person says. Does not mean it is error free. Usually it will only show when a word was first included in a dictionary. + + + Mike Lyle schreef Even the name *Tamarix gallica* once had an alternative *Tamarix anglica*, though I think the species hails from SW Europe. "P van Rijckevorsel" wrote This is not the right way to put it. Tamarix anglica is among the synonyms of Tamarix gallica. The exact relationship between these two names may require some work to dig out. + + + Mike Lyle schreef Really? I thought it was plain obsolete, having been based on horticultural practice alone. + + + That is one of the possibilities. There are others. + + + Mike Lyle schreef But I'm not quite convinced that the specimens available in commerce are always correctly named, anyhow. "P van Rijckevorsel" wrote On a practical note I was interested in seeing that the family is now judged to belong to Caryophyllales, which is quite fitting considering the sort of habitats it prefers. PvR Mike Lyle schreef Thanks again: that does make sense. Till the next reclassification. Mike. + + + Fortunately there is progress and the good tends to be kept in future classifications PvR |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Mike Lyle schreef
That isn't the case with English dictionaries, British or American: they generally quote from other dictionaries only when there is no earlier use known in literature. For examples see *Oxford English Dictionary*, the very big one we usually call *OED*; or *New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary*; or Merriam-Webster online. [...] Mike. + + + Nice to see someone with such great faith (in dictionaries). I tend to be wary. Lots of the trouble with language arises of an indiscriminate use of the wrong dictionary. PvR |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message . ..
"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote Common names are quite tricky. I have only limited faith in dictionaries, although obviously they are great for a quick approximation. + + + Mike Lyle schreef Hell of a lot more reliable than people, though! But what they *can* tell you is when a name was first published. + + + Depends on the dictionary! Usually a dictionary will have been checked more often than what a person says. Does not mean it is error free. Usually it will only show when a word was first included in a dictionary. + + + That isn't the case with English dictionaries, British or American: they generally quote from other dictionaries only when there is no earlier use known in literature. For examples see *Oxford English Dictionary*, the very big one we usually call *OED*; or *New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary*; or Merriam-Webster online. [...] Mike. |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message . ..
Mike Lyle schreef That isn't the case with English dictionaries, British or American: they generally quote from other dictionaries only when there is no earlier use known in literature. For examples see *Oxford English Dictionary*, the very big one we usually call *OED*; or *New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary*; or Merriam-Webster online. [...] Mike. + + + Nice to see someone with such great faith (in dictionaries). I tend to be wary. Lots of the trouble with language arises of an indiscriminate use of the wrong dictionary. PvR I don't think what I said was matter of faith, surely? The dictionaries have a better chance than I do of identifying the first published use of a word, given that thousands of people like us are constantly sending in verifiable dated references: this isn't guesswork. When they quote examples from other dictionaries, they say so. Or do you mean they're not 100% reliable about the *meanings* of words? Of course you have to use your judgement, as with any reference book. No argument there. Mike. |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Mike Lyle schreef
I don't think what I said was matter of faith, surely? The dictionaries have a better chance than I do of identifying the first published use of a word, given that thousands of people like us are constantly sending in verifiable dated references: this isn't guesswork. When they quote examples from other dictionaries, they say so. Or do you mean they're not 100% reliable about the *meanings* of words? Of course you have to use your judgement, as with any reference book. No argument there. Mike. + + + I am not up to a detailed discussion of the relative merits of dictionaries. Still, I went to the Merriam Webster on-line and typed in "redcedar" to see when this was first used and if originally it might have been "red cedar". However the (by now universally accepted?) "redcedar" is not even in there, just "red cedar", which in all likelyhood is something entirely different (probably Toona spp?). Someone putting his faith in this dictionary would go badly wrong here. PvR |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Mike Lyle schreef
Meanwhile, Google has 17,200 *redcedar*, of which many are web addresses, and 890,000 *red cedar*. Google counts aren't the strongest evidence, of course; but they do give an impression of what people are typing. + + + Caution here! - redcedar will generate only hits for "redcedar" - while "red cedar" will present a cross-section of the sites using "cedar" (4.000.000) and those using "red" (54.000.000). To draw any kind of conclusion requires lots (and lots) of handwork or the application of statistics. Just to give an indication: + cedar just the color red 870.000 54.000.000 blue 200.000 2.000.000 white 1.240.000 61.000.000 black 810.000 84.000.000 I am a little dubious about "blue cedar", but fairly sure there is no such thing as "black cedar" and look: 810.000 hits anyway. PvR PvR |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
In article , P van
Rijckevorsel writes I am a little dubious about "blue cedar", but fairly sure there is no such thing as "black cedar" and look: 810.000 hits anyway. Googling for the phrase "black cedar" gives nearly a thousand hits; restricting it to pages also referring to Thuja cuts it down to 18. Black cedar seems to be current for Thuja occidentalis 'Nigra'. I would understand "blue cedar" as Cedrus atlantica 'Glauca', tho' I would use "Blue Atlas Cedar". Googling additionally finds Alaskan Weeping Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis nootkaensis 'Glauca Pendula), Blue Cedar (Juniperus virginica 'Glauca'), Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani 'Glauca'), Weeping Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani '(Glauca) Pendula'), Oregon Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Oregon Blue') and Blue Cedar (Cedrus 'Feeling Blue'), at which point I stopped looking further. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
In article , P van
Rijckevorsel writes I am a little dubious about "blue cedar", but fairly sure there is no such thing as "black cedar" and look: 810.000 hits anyway. Googling for the phrase "black cedar" gives nearly a thousand hits; restricting it to pages also referring to Thuja cuts it down to 18. Black cedar seems to be current for Thuja occidentalis 'Nigra'. I would understand "blue cedar" as Cedrus atlantica 'Glauca', tho' I would use "Blue Atlas Cedar". Googling additionally finds Alaskan Weeping Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis nootkaensis 'Glauca Pendula), Blue Cedar (Juniperus virginica 'Glauca'), Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani 'Glauca'), Weeping Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani '(Glauca) Pendula'), Oregon Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Oregon Blue') and Blue Cedar (Cedrus 'Feeling Blue'), at which point I stopped looking further. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Stewart Robert Hinsley schreef
Googling for the phrase "black cedar" gives nearly a thousand hits; restricting it to pages also referring to Thuja cuts it down to 18. Black cedar seems to be current for Thuja occidentalis 'Nigra'. I would understand "blue cedar" as Cedrus atlantica 'Glauca', tho' I would use "Blue Atlas Cedar". Googling additionally finds Alaskan Weeping Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis nootkatensis 'Glauca Pendula), Blue Cedar (Juniperus virginica 'Glauca'), Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani 'Glauca'), Weeping Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani '(Glauca) Pendula'), Oregon Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Oregon Blue') and Blue Cedar (Cedrus 'Feeling Blue'), at which point I stopped looking further. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley + + + Yes, this means descending into the depths of cultivardom. Might be more interesting to look for the ratio between Chamaecyparis nootkatensis and its competing names, although offhand I will guess that it is no contest. PvR |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
In article ,
P van Rijckevorsel wrote: Mike Lyle schreef That's interesting: the one-word form hasn't yet reached my corner of the universe. I'll keep my eye open for it. Meanwhile, Google has 17,200 *redcedar*, of which many are web addresses, and 890,000 *red cedar*. Google counts aren't the strongest evidence, of course; but they do give an impression of what people are typing. I don't know about *toona*, though I do eat *tuna*: you're probably more up-to-date than I am , as I still place Western red cedar in *Thuja*. Mike. + + + Well, to me usage in this case is not very interesting since I already have a fair idea: - redcedar is a US term, and dominates the official documentation. It refers to eastern, southern and western redcedar. This last is Thuja plicata and will be the wood referred to by the general US populace as "redcedar", "red cedar" or (especially, and by a comfortable margin) "cedar" whenever a wood is being discussed. - red cedar in the same official US documentation will be a cedar that is red, or more particular has red wood. This will usually be Toona (fam Meliaceae), yielding "Australian red cedar" and "Asian red cedar" My point was that the dictionary consulted was absolutely clueless and off by at least two orders of magnitude. Dictionaries are fine in their place, but no use when you really need them (sort of like banks, only worse) Here in Ontario we call Thuja occidentalis (eastern) white cedar and Juniperus virginiana (eastern) red cedar. The intensely aromatic red heartwood of the latter has long been used to make chests and line closets to deter moths. North of the range of red cedar, people put branches of white cedar in with woolen clothes to deter moths. White cedar is sometimes called arborvitae here. I've never seen "redcedar", only "red cedar", until this thread, FWIW. |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:23:56 GMT, "P van Rijckevorsel"
wrote: Mike Lyle schreef Meanwhile, Google has 17,200 *redcedar*, of which many are web addresses, and 890,000 *red cedar*. Google counts aren't the strongest evidence, of course; but they do give an impression of what people are typing. + + + Caution here! - redcedar will generate only hits for "redcedar" - while "red cedar" will present a cross-section of the sites using "cedar" (4.000.000) and those using "red" (54.000.000). To draw any kind of conclusion requires lots (and lots) of handwork or the application of statistics. Just to give an indication: + cedar just the color red 870.000 54.000.000 blue 200.000 2.000.000 white 1.240.000 61.000.000 black 810.000 84.000.000 I am a little dubious about "blue cedar", but fairly sure there is no such thing as "black cedar" and look: 810.000 hits anyway. PvR PvR when using two words, put them into quotes, like "red cedar" with that google gave me 163, 000 hits "blue cedar" gives 1,420 of course the first three are for BnBs or Inns with "blue cedar" -bed -breakfast -lodge -Inn -coaster (for roller coaster" and you get 924 "white cedar" 42,200 "black cedar" 956 of course the first two are for pencils, then there are the boxes, schools, etc. |
Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
P van Rijckevorsel wrote:
Well, to me usage in this case is not very interesting since I already have a fair idea: - redcedar is a US term, and dominates the official documentation. It refers to eastern, southern and western redcedar. This last is Thuja plicata and will be the wood referred to by the general US populace as "redcedar", "red cedar" or (especially, and by a comfortable margin) "cedar" whenever a wood is being discussed. - red cedar in the same official US documentation will be a cedar that is red, or more particular has red wood. This will usually be Toona (fam Meliaceae), yielding "Australian red cedar" and "Asian red cedar" Beverly Erlebacher schreef Here in Ontario we call Thuja occidentalis (eastern) white cedar and Juniperus virginiana (eastern) red cedar. The intensely aromatic red heartwood of the latter has long been used to make chests and line closets to deter moths. North of the range of red cedar, people put branches of white cedar in with woolen clothes to deter moths. White cedar is sometimes called arborvitae here. I've never seen "redcedar", only "red cedar", until this thread, FWIW. + + + As I noted above "redcedar" is a US term and has its stronghold in the official documentation. In everything I have of the USFS (Forestry Service) this is used, but my set of USFS-publications does not appear to extend further back than 1948. It is also in the field guides, both the Audubon and Peterson. Or to be accurate: of the three Peterson guides, all by the same author, the modern ones (Eastern, 1988, 1998 and Western Trees, 1992, 1998) use "redcedar", while the old one (Trees and Shrubs, 1958, 1986) uses "red cedar". In Western Trees the author notes that he would welcome Canoe-cedar instead of Western redcedar. The average US-citizen uses "cedar" (when not used as a general category) for Thuja plicata (western redcedar) and "aromatic cedar" for Juniperus virginiana (eastern redcedar). The use of "cedar" is connected to the size of the stands rather than to a particular tree. To call Thuja "arbor-vitae" goes back quite some time (perhaps long enough for Mike Lyle's dictionaries to have captured usage? :^). PvR |
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