Is there a place where I can find apples which have not grown near
crab apple trees, for planting seedlings?

I heard that phyto-hormones can make seed sterile. Is it true?

Many phyto-hormones are used as weed killers in the proper dosage.

Not advisable to grow apples from seeds because the hybrids will not come
true.


"Mihai Cartoaje" wrote in message
om...
Is there a place where I can find apples which have not grown near
crab apple trees, for planting seedlings?

I heard that phyto-hormones can make seed sterile. Is it true?

"Cereus-validus" wrote in message .com...

Not advisable to grow apples from seeds because the hybrids will not come
true.

I have read on it, although if someone has experience with hybrids
from non-crab apples, it would be interesting to read about.

I thought about planting seedlings because,

- Here in Quebec, (zone 4b agriculture canada 2000, 3 USDA, -40
Celsius in winter), farmers plant McIntoshes and Cortland. I was
counting on the 10 to 20 Celsius degrees of extra cold resistance
seedlings have.

- Apple trees prefer sexual reproduction.

"Cereus-validus" wrote in message .com...

Not advisable to grow apples from seeds because the hybrids will not come
true.

I have read on it, although if someone has experience with hybrids
from non-crab apples, it would be interesting to read about.

I thought about planting seedlings because,

- Here in Quebec, (zone 4b agriculture canada 2000, 3 USDA, -40
Celsius in winter), farmers plant McIntoshes and Cortland. I was
counting on the 10 to 20 Celsius degrees of extra cold resistance
seedlings have.

- Apple trees prefer sexual reproduction.

Is there a place where I can find apples which have not grown near crab
apple trees, for planting seedlings?

For what purpose? Commercial apple orchards normally do not contain crabapple
trees, which are primarily grown as ornamentals in home gardens.
There is no point in amateurs growing apples from seed, except to amuse the
children. Open pollinated seedling fruit trees probably will not produce fruit
for 10 years or more, and then the fruit is likely to be inferior to named
cultivars. The only reason for growing apple trees from seed is with controlled
pollination for hybridizers to produce superior varieties.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Is there a place where I can find apples which have not grown near crab
apple trees, for planting seedlings?

For what purpose? Commercial apple orchards normally do not contain crabapple
trees, which are primarily grown as ornamentals in home gardens.
There is no point in amateurs growing apples from seed, except to amuse the
children. Open pollinated seedling fruit trees probably will not produce fruit
for 10 years or more, and then the fruit is likely to be inferior to named
cultivars. The only reason for growing apple trees from seed is with controlled
pollination for hybridizers to produce superior varieties.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

(Iris Cohen) wrote in message ...

For what purpose? Commercial apple orchards normally do not contain crabapple

10 to 20 extra Celsius degrees of cold resistance, and learning
botany, of course.

trees, which are primarily grown as ornamentals in home gardens.

They use named cultivars for pollination, while trying to juxtapose
bloom periods?

Then I should be safe. I have apples from Washington (generic),
Rainier and ordered from Honeycrisp.com

mihai
47N, -40C in winter

(Iris Cohen) wrote in message ...

children. Open pollinated seedling fruit trees probably will not produce fruit
for 10 years or more, and then the fruit is likely to be inferior to named

I have seen it written as 5 - 8 years from seedling to fruit, but they
might have used artificial bloom-inducing methods.

mihai
47N, -40C in winter

(Mihai Cartoaje) wrote in message . com...
"Cereus-validus" wrote in message .com...

Not advisable to grow apples from seeds because the hybrids will not come
true.

I have read on it, although if someone has experience with hybrids
from non-crab apples, it would be interesting to read about.

I thought about planting seedlings because,

- Here in Quebec, (zone 4b agriculture canada 2000, 3 USDA, -40
Celsius in winter), farmers plant McIntoshes and Cortland. I was
counting on the 10 to 20 Celsius degrees of extra cold resistance
seedlings have.

- Apple trees prefer sexual reproduction.



Saying apples "prefer" sexual reproduction seems to be an example of
anthropomorphism. If people hadn't used grafting to clone apple trees,
there would have been just one 'McIntosh' apple tree, and we would not
be eating 'McIntosh' apples today.

There is always a slim chance that you will obtain a superior apple
cultivar from a seedling. Many apple cultivars originated from
seedlings without any intentional breeding including 'McIntosh' and
'Granny Smith'. 'Cortland' is a cross between 'Ben Davis' and
'McIntosh'.

Many apple cultivars are self-sterile so cannot self-pollinate. Apple
orchards of these self-sterile cultivars must contain a second
cultivar as a pollenizer. Therefore, seeds of some cultivars will be
hybrids of two cultivars. However, each seedling with two parents will
be slightly different because of the "mixing" of genes that occurs in
sexual reproduction.


References

"A" is for antique apples
http://www.foodhistory.com/foodnotes...iqueapples.htm

Cortland apple
http://www.epicurious.com/c_play/c04.../cortland.html

(David Hershey) wrote in message . com...

Many apple cultivars are self-sterile so cannot self-pollinate. Apple
orchards of these self-sterile cultivars must contain a second
cultivar as a pollenizer. Therefore, seeds of some cultivars will be
hybrids of two cultivars. However, each seedling with two parents will
be slightly different because of the "mixing" of genes that occurs in
sexual reproduction.

A possible explanation of the lower quality of most hybrids is if bad
genes are recessive, so alleles (hope I'm using the word correctly) of
hybrids would contain two recessive bad genes.

Maybe the bad genes shall be weeded out by further selection.

(David Hershey) wrote in message . com...

Many apple cultivars are self-sterile so cannot self-pollinate. Apple
orchards of these self-sterile cultivars must contain a second
cultivar as a pollenizer. Therefore, seeds of some cultivars will be
hybrids of two cultivars. However, each seedling with two parents will
be slightly different because of the "mixing" of genes that occurs in
sexual reproduction.

A possible explanation of the lower quality of most hybrids is if bad
genes are recessive, so alleles (hope I'm using the word correctly) of
hybrids would contain two recessive bad genes.

Maybe the bad genes shall be weeded out by further selection.

(Mihai Cartoaje) wrote in message . com...
(David Hershey) wrote in message . com...

Many apple cultivars are self-sterile so cannot self-pollinate. Apple
orchards of these self-sterile cultivars must contain a second
cultivar as a pollenizer. Therefore, seeds of some cultivars will be
hybrids of two cultivars. However, each seedling with two parents will
be slightly different because of the "mixing" of genes that occurs in
sexual reproduction.

A possible explanation of the lower quality of most hybrids is if bad
genes are recessive, so alleles (hope I'm using the word correctly) of
hybrids would contain two recessive bad genes.

Maybe the bad genes shall be weeded out by further selection.

If you propose to do that, you will need much land and many years, as
seedlings will grow full size and will not bear (and cannot be
evaluated) for several years.

It isn't just a matter of deleterious recessive genes showing up in
the offspring of hybrids. While hybridization does seek to block the
expression of these genes, it is not the only or even the most
important objective.

The hybridizer seeks a particular combination of genes that gives
fruit of the desired qualities, and that desired combination of genes
is present only in the F1 hybrid generation; the F2 will be diverse,
and few if any of the seedlings will have the combination selected by
the hybridizer. If the experience of others is a guide, most of the
seedlings will produce either crab apples or no usable fruit at all,
and you may go through many generations and thousands of trees to find
one that not only produces satisfactory fruit but also breeds true.

--
Chris Green

(Mihai Cartoaje) wrote in message . com...
(David Hershey) wrote in message . com...

Many apple cultivars are self-sterile so cannot self-pollinate. Apple
orchards of these self-sterile cultivars must contain a second
cultivar as a pollenizer. Therefore, seeds of some cultivars will be
hybrids of two cultivars. However, each seedling with two parents will
be slightly different because of the "mixing" of genes that occurs in
sexual reproduction.

A possible explanation of the lower quality of most hybrids is if bad
genes are recessive, so alleles (hope I'm using the word correctly) of
hybrids would contain two recessive bad genes.

Maybe the bad genes shall be weeded out by further selection.

If you propose to do that, you will need much land and many years, as
seedlings will grow full size and will not bear (and cannot be
evaluated) for several years.

It isn't just a matter of deleterious recessive genes showing up in
the offspring of hybrids. While hybridization does seek to block the
expression of these genes, it is not the only or even the most
important objective.

The hybridizer seeks a particular combination of genes that gives
fruit of the desired qualities, and that desired combination of genes
is present only in the F1 hybrid generation; the F2 will be diverse,
and few if any of the seedlings will have the combination selected by
the hybridizer. If the experience of others is a guide, most of the
seedlings will produce either crab apples or no usable fruit at all,
and you may go through many generations and thousands of trees to find
one that not only produces satisfactory fruit but also breeds true.

--
Chris Green

(Mihai Cartoaje) wrote in message . com...
(David Hershey) wrote in message . com...

Many apple cultivars are self-sterile so cannot self-pollinate. Apple
orchards of these self-sterile cultivars must contain a second
cultivar as a pollenizer. Therefore, seeds of some cultivars will be
hybrids of two cultivars. However, each seedling with two parents will
be slightly different because of the "mixing" of genes that occurs in
sexual reproduction.

A possible explanation of the lower quality of most hybrids is if bad
genes are recessive, so alleles (hope I'm using the word correctly) of
hybrids would contain two recessive bad genes.

Maybe the bad genes shall be weeded out by further selection.

If you propose to do that, you will need much land and many years, as
seedlings will grow full size and will not bear (and cannot be
evaluated) for several years.

It isn't just a matter of deleterious recessive genes showing up in
the offspring of hybrids. While hybridization does seek to block the
expression of these genes, it is not the only or even the most
important objective.

The hybridizer seeks a particular combination of genes that gives
fruit of the desired qualities, and that desired combination of genes
is present only in the F1 hybrid generation; the F2 will be diverse,
and few if any of the seedlings will have the combination selected by
the hybridizer. If the experience of others is a guide, most of the
seedlings will produce either crab apples or no usable fruit at all,
and you may go through many generations and thousands of trees to find
one that not only produces satisfactory fruit but also breeds true.

--
Chris Green

Mihai Cartoaje schreef
A possible explanation of the lower quality of most hybrids is if bad
genes are recessive, so alleles (hope I'm using the word correctly) of
hybrids would contain two recessive bad genes.

Maybe the bad genes shall be weeded out by further selection.

+ + +
The other way about. A gene is a particular area of DNA with a certain
function. An allele is one of several possible variants of the gene, so
selection (natural or artificial) eliminates 'bad' alleles, not 'bad' genes.
You cannot select for genes, and if you manage to do so anyway there is a
fair chance you get a new species (as this would mean altering the scope of
the genome). BTW, it is very anthropocentric to speak of alleles being 'bad'
or 'good'. Mostly alleles just are, and are advantageous or not depending on
circumstance.

Of course, colloquially genes are referred to in the reverse of the true
situation. Hope this clarifies it,
PvR

If this is less than crystal clear, just use a book, any decent book!