| Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 |
|
|
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Our lilies have jumped the pots and as THRIVING on the pond floor. In
fact, they do better there than in the pots. But they are not flowering a whole lot. Any ideas about fertilizing them? Or otherwise makeing them bloom? Jim |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
"Phyllis and Jim" wrote:
Our lilies have jumped the pots and as THRIVING on the pond floor. In fact, they do better there than in the pots. But they are not flowering a whole lot. Any ideas about fertilizing them? Or otherwise makeing them bloom? I had this problem. I had one water lily that in about 30 years had taken over our entire pond which is about 15' x 45'. A couple years ago in the fall I took the entire lily tuber out. I broke it into healthy sections about 8" to 12" long with crowns. Much had to be thrown away because it had soft spots. I then planted 12 pieces in pots and am tending them to keep them in the pots. I will add the once-a-year fertilizer spikes in May. They are doing very well in pots and are blooming their heads off. -- Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to 18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6 Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
They are doing very well in pots and are
blooming their heads off. How did they do when they were on the loose? Lots of blooms to go with the leaves? I will be very interested in how they do with your fertilizer! Jim |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
oups.com... They are doing very well in pots and are blooming their heads off. How did they do when they were on the loose? Lots of blooms to go with the leaves? I will be very interested in how they do with your fertilizer! Jim I did a mini-experiment (read: too lazy to repot a large hardy lily) a few weeks ago. The potted lily in one of my above- ground ponds was growing way out of the container (a dishpan). I divided it (don't ask how...), moved the pot with about half the lily to another container, left the free-floating (?) remains in the pond in which it had been growing. Large roots sticking out and about. So far it continues to put out new leaves. Still a bit cool for flowers. I stuck one of those season-long fert sticks in the midst of the mass of roots which might work or might not. IIRC the original hardy lily (now in three different ponds) came from a local nursery where it was just hanging around a metal stocktank, not even potted. I'm also a "minimalist" gardener - water or soil. I'll report on what happens to my mutilated water lily. Gail near San Antonio TX Zone 8 USA |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Hi Gail,
Nice to see you here. I look forward to hearing about your result. I was thinking about mine, it now covers about a 4 x 6 area. Might be hard to fertilize that much! I haven't approached it as it is entwining a bunch of milk crates that used to hold up the lily dishpans. Jim |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
"Phyllis and Jim" wrote:
How did they do when they were on the loose? Lots of blooms to go with the leaves? They had fewer blooms when the tuber ran all over the pond than when I just had 12 pots. I didn't fertilize the pots and I still got blooms. This year will be the first time I fertilized since I just found the once per year spikes. I will be very interested in how they do with your fertilizer! I am interested also. The spikes came in the mail yesterday, but I am waiting until the pond warms up a little before I put the spikes in. Our last killing frost date is May 15. -- Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to 18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6 Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
On Mon, 2 Apr 2007 23:09:11 CST, "Gail Futoran"
wrote: I'm also a "minimalist" gardener - water or soil. I'll report on what happens to my mutilated water lily. I'm working real hard towards this type of gardening. ;-) As in my big flower pots out by the front door, instead of the usual soil and annuals, I put water in them and my iris that winter in the koi ponds. When the cannas take their place in the koi ponds, the iris go in these pots with a small floating island that holds plants that can handle soggy soil. We have drippers set up to keep the water level up. ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Phyllis and Jim wrote:
Our lilies have jumped the pots and as THRIVING on the pond floor. In fact, they do better there than in the pots. But they are not flowering a whole lot. Any ideas about fertilizing them? Or otherwise makeing them bloom? I run my tiny pond much like an aquarium. I fertilize the water with the same mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate, and hydroponic trace element/iron fertilizer that I use in the indoor tanks. Phosphate in the water column makes the WH and canna lilies bloom like crazy. I don't see why it wouldn't do the same for a bare-root lily. --Altum -- My other fish and pond forum is: http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:05:18 CST, Altum
wrote: I run my tiny pond much like an aquarium. I fertilize the water with the same mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate, and hydroponic trace element/iron fertilizer that I use in the indoor tanks. Phosphate in the water column makes the WH and canna lilies bloom like crazy. I don't see why it wouldn't do the same for a bare-root lily. That's interesting. It does sound suspiciously like it might contain the same stuff as a numbered soluble fertilizer like 15-30-15, that I find at Walmart. I don't know where these chemicals come from, or if they are in combination with potassium but my understanding is they are simply nitrates, phosphates and potassium. What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better? Regards, Hal |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
"Hal" wrote in message ... On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:05:18 CST, Altum wrote: I run my tiny pond much like an aquarium. I fertilize the water with the same mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate, and hydroponic trace element/iron fertilizer that I use in the indoor tanks. Phosphate in the water column makes the WH and canna lilies bloom like crazy. I don't see why it wouldn't do the same for a bare-root lily. That's interesting. It does sound suspiciously like it might contain the same stuff as a numbered soluble fertilizer like 15-30-15, that I find at Walmart. I don't know where these chemicals come from, or if they are in combination with potassium but my understanding is they are simply nitrates, phosphates and potassium. Some come with trace elements. I'm experimenting with Miracle-Grow and products like it right now. It's not toxic to fish that I can see. The 5-10-5 for gardens works well in the water I grow pond plants in. It doesn't seem to bother the frogs but has no trace elements listed on the bags. I think I'll add MG next time and see if there's a difference. What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better? Regards, Hal -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ISP: Hughes.net ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Hal wrote:
On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:05:18 CST, Altum wrote: I run my tiny pond much like an aquarium. I fertilize the water with the same mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate, and hydroponic trace element/iron fertilizer that I use in the indoor tanks. Phosphate in the water column makes the WH and canna lilies bloom like crazy. I don't see why it wouldn't do the same for a bare-root lily. That's interesting. Yeah. I'm really into planted aquaria and someone here advised me to treat my little pond/water garden the same way. Imagine my surprise the first time I added my aquarium fertilizer with the phosphate and every single WH bloomed! It does sound suspiciously like it might contain the same stuff as a numbered soluble fertilizer like 15-30-15, that I find at Walmart. I don't know where these chemicals come from, or if they are in combination with potassium but my understanding is they are simply nitrates, phosphates and potassium. The stuff at Walmart generally contains ammonium nitrate. The first number in the N-P-K fertilizer ratio isn't nitrate, but nitrogen. Ammonium nitrate is the most common source of it for fertilizer. You can get away with burying a fertilizer spike with some ammonium nitrate deep in a pot, but of course you wouldn't want to add ammonium to a pond with fish. If you find a brand without any ammonium, I'm all ears! What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better? I use the bulk chemicals because 1) they're wonderfully cheap and 2) I can tailor the mix to my individual tanks and pond depending on my water change schedule and fish load. The nitrate and phosphate have the potassium counterion (K, potash) because aquatic and pond plants need a lot of it. Potassium is the K in the N-P-K number. The chemicals are set up avoid adding undesirable sodium and chloride to the water. Some people don't even need potassium sulfate when they use potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate. I find my plants do better with some extra potash so I add the potassium sulfate. BTW, people in sof****er areas also add calcium and magnesium to the fertilizer. My water is hard so I don't worry about it. I doubt it's too much of a problem in most ponds since everyone tends to add coral and/or oyster shells to harden the water a little for koi and goldies anyway. I saw mention of algae blooms with water column fertilizers. My 3 half-barrel pond has a LOT of plants and very few fish compared to a typical formal koi pond - it's practically a veggie filter. LOL! If I don't fertilize the water, the WH goes reddish, chlorotic, and straggly and the algae grows like crazy. When I fertilize well, the WH gets lush and green, the cannas bloom, and algae is much less troublesome. I would expect a lot more algae bloom problems in systems with more fish and fewer plants, since there are often traces of ammonia in the water until it passes through the filter. Ammonia + iron + sunlight = instant algae. --Altum -- My other fish and pond forum is: http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
In article ,
Hal wrote: What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better? Also consider: ammonium nitrate ammonium phosphate ammonium sulfate -- Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to 18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6 Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
On Apr 2, 9:38 am, "Phyllis and Jim"
wrote: Our lilies have jumped the pots and as THRIVING on thepondfloor. In fact, they do better there than in the pots. But they are not flowering a whole lot. Any ideas about fertilizing them? Or otherwise makeing them bloom? Jim Jim now that your lilies are in the ground as they should be your plants will not only thrive they should flower with no fertilizer at all. You fish waste and the such is all the lily needs to stretch its roots. In fact if you dont fertilize, it should break down the waste quicker. Most lilies need sun light to bloom. also if you just transplanted it may take a while longer or miss a cycle to bloom. Peter http://www.relaxingdecor.com |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Stephen Henning wrote:
In article , Hal wrote: What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better? Also consider: ammonium nitrate ammonium phosphate ammonium sulfate Umm... I was talking about fertilizing water in a pond where there are live fish. You don't add ammonium to the water. -- My other fish and pond forum is: http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
On Apr 4, 4:57 pm, "Reel McKoi" wrote:
"Hal" wrote in message ... On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:05:18 CST, Altum wrote: I run my tinypondmuch like an aquarium. I fertilize the water with the same mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate, and hydroponic trace element/iron fertilizer that I use in the indoor tanks. Phosphate in the water column makes the WH and canna lilies bloom like crazy. I don't see why it wouldn't do the same for a bare-root lily. That's interesting. It does sound suspiciously like it might contain the same stuff as a numbered soluble fertilizer like 15-30-15, that I find at Walmart. I don't know where these chemicals come from, or if they are in combination with potassium but my understanding is they are simply nitrates, phosphates and potassium. Some come with trace elements. I'm experimenting with Miracle-Grow and products like it right now. It's not toxic to fish that I can see. The 5-10-5 for gardens works well in the water I growpondplants in. It doesn't seem to bother the frogs but has no trace elements listed on the bags. I think I'll add MG next time and see if there's a difference. What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better? Regards, Hal -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. MyPond& Aquarium Pages:http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ISP: Hughes.net ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö i would say the time release capsules that you normally use for plants like impatients and wild flower seeds works and fish ignore it. Peter http://www.relaxingdecor.com |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Reel McKoi wrote:
"Hal" wrote in message It does sound suspiciously like it might contain the same stuff as a numbered soluble fertilizer like 15-30-15, that I find at Walmart. I don't know where these chemicals come from, or if they are in combination with potassium but my understanding is they are simply nitrates, phosphates and potassium. Some come with trace elements. I'm experimenting with Miracle-Grow and products like it right now. It's not toxic to fish that I can see. The 5-10-5 for gardens works well in the water I grow pond plants in. It doesn't seem to bother the frogs but has no trace elements listed on the bags. I think I'll add MG next time and see if there's a difference. How can something that contains ammonia not be toxic to fish??? Ack. Even tiny amounts of ammonia in the water can stress fish and affect their health and growth, whether or not you see an immediate toxic effect. --Altum -- My other fish and pond forum is: http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Peter,
The lilies are on the bottom, on bare cement. They do catch fish waste. I am interested in how they will or won't bloom., Jim |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Altum wrote:
How can something that contains ammonia not be toxic to fish??? The fertilizers mentioned contain ammonium, not ammonia. Really close, but _much_ less toxic. Ack. Even tiny amounts of ammonia in the water can stress fish and affect their health and growth, whether or not you see an immediate toxic effect. But I tend to agree with you, anyway. I haven't fertilized since my very early water-gardening days, and I get more blooms than ever. -- derek - Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated moderators. |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep. the lower they are the
more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
drsolo wrote:
how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep. How deep would you consider deep? Five feet is not too deep for most non-dwarf hardy lilies. the lower they are the more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid Not in my experience. I start all my lilies shallow, and sink them as the leaves reach the surface. Once they have a few pads on the surface, they don't have a problem getting enough energy to push more, and they are able to spread out. My deep lilies always produce more blooms than my shallow ones. -- derek - Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated moderators. |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:17:54 CST, Altum
wrote: The stuff at Walmart generally contains ammonium nitrate. The first number in the N-P-K fertilizer ratio isn't nitrate, but nitrogen. Ammonium nitrate is the most common source of it for fertilizer. You can get away with burying a fertilizer spike with some ammonium nitrate deep in a pot, but of course you wouldn't want to add ammonium to a pond with fish. If you find a brand without any ammonium, I'm all ears! I can't, but didn't know there was such a thing either. I must say (Because I feel pretty stupid right now.) that I've never found an ammonia reading in my pond except once some years ago when the pond crashed (Because I was busy with other things, not due to fertilizer.) and I started over again. I've used fertilizers that I didn't think of as containing ammonia, but in small amounts, and in ignorance. Thanks for pointing that out. What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better? I use the bulk chemicals because 1) they're wonderfully cheap and 2) I can tailor the mix to my individual tanks and pond depending on my water change schedule and fish load. The nitrate and phosphate have the potassium counterion (K, potash) because aquatic and pond plants need a lot of it. Potassium is the K in the N-P-K number. The chemicals are set up avoid adding undesirable sodium and chloride to the water. Some people don't even need potassium sulfate when they use potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate. I find my plants do better with some extra potash so I add the potassium sulfate. .................................................. .............Cut to Soft water and Calcium BTW, people in sof****er areas also add calcium and magnesium to the fertilizer. My water is hard so I don't worry about it. I doubt it's too much of a problem in most ponds since everyone tends to add coral and/or oyster shells to harden the water a little for koi and goldies anyway. ........................End Cut I saw mention of algae blooms with water column fertilizers. My 3 half-barrel pond has a LOT of plants and very few fish compared to a typical formal koi pond - it's practically a veggie filter. LOL! If I don't fertilize the water, the WH goes reddish, chlorotic, and straggly and the algae grows like crazy. When I fertilize well, the WH gets lush and green, the cannas bloom, and algae is much less troublesome. I would expect a lot more algae bloom problems in systems with more fish and fewer plants, since there are often traces of ammonia in the water until it passes through the filter. Ammonia + iron + sunlight = instant algae. You have pointed out something I've missed and must be ignored in many gardening circles, since breaking down ammonia has long been a source of fertilizer, but it begs the question where do you obtain these bulk chemicals. I've never looked for them and doubt my gardening center carries them, but would appreciate your help as to where to look. Your help is greatly appreciated, Hal |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... brevity snip But I tend to agree with you, anyway. I haven't fertilized since my very early water-gardening days, and I get more blooms than ever. =============================== This fascinates me and has since you first mentioned it. Your lilies are feeding on something. How often do you clean your pond? I mean pump it out and refill it so heavy mulm doesn't collect on the bottom. Is it just fish waste feeding the lilies or is there runoff from the lawn? Are there other plants in your pond or just the lilies? The "fertilizer" fueling them has to be coming from somewhere. -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ISP: Hughes.net ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
On Apr 5, 10:36 am, Derek Broughton wrote:
drsolo wrote: how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep. How deep would you consider deep? Five feet is not too deep for most non-dwarf hardy lilies. the lower they are the more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid Not in my experience. I start all my lilies shallow, and sink them as the leaves reach the surface. Once they have a few pads on the surface, they don't have a problem getting enough energy to push more, and they are able to spread out. My deep lilies always produce more blooms than my shallow ones. -- derek - Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated moderators. Our top lillies are 2" under the surface. The deep ones are 2' down. We have betweens at about a foot. All have done well, but I see the deeper ones (on cement) as doing better. The potted ones are in stone or dirt. Overall, however, I don't think they are flowering as much as they might. That is why I asked about fertilizing the on-cement ones. Jim |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
In article ,
Derek Broughton wrote: drsolo wrote: how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep. How deep would you consider deep? Five feet is not too deep for most non-dwarf hardy lilies. the lower they are the more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid Not in my experience. I start all my lilies shallow, and sink them as the leaves reach the surface. Once they have a few pads on the surface, they don't have a problem getting enough energy to push more, and they are able to spread out. My deep lilies always produce more blooms than my shallow ones. How deep is deep? -- To reply by email, remove the word "space" |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Hal wrote:
What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better? Stephen Henning wrote: Also consider: ammonium nitrate ammonium phosphate ammonium sulfate Altum wrote: Umm... I was talking about fertilizing water in a pond where there are live fish. You don't add ammonium to the water. How can something that contains ammonia not be toxic to fish??? Ack. Even tiny amounts of ammonia in the water can stress fish and affect their health and growth, whether or not you see an immediate toxic effect. Ammonium compounds and Ammonia are two different things just as Salt (sodium chloride), Sodium and Chlorine are very different things. Ammonia is NH3 a very caustic gas that produces NH4OH a caustic alkali. Ammonium compounds are salts frequently used as fertilzers. Looking at water lily fertilizers we find that many contain ammonium compounds. For example: CrystalClear Aquatic Plant Fertilizer: 5.5% nitrogen from Ammonium Phosphate. Tetra FloraPride Aquatic Plant Fertilizer: Ammonium Heptamolybdate. Most water lily fertilizers are designed to not contaminate the pond with nitrates and phosphates. And the bacterial breakdown of urea creates ammonia, so most fertilizers do actually use ammonium compounds. -- Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to 18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6 Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
in the frozen tundra of zone 5 (going on 6 due to global warming) more than
18" -24" is too deep. it takes too much energy and too long to bloom as it is. Ingrid |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:58:25 CST, "drsolo" wrote:
in the frozen tundra of zone 5 (going on 6 due to global warming) more than 18" -24" is too deep. it takes too much energy and too long to bloom as it is. Ingrid I wonder though, if lily type has a lot to do with production? When I moved my lilies from 6-8" from the surface down to 20" some (most) have performed better, and others have not. Flowers seemed bigger. I put in the lily pond because the koi pond was so shady, but now my neighbor's trees (evergreen) have grown to the point of also causing a lot shade there. Only way I can win is to move. :-( ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
drsolo wrote:
in the frozen tundra of zone 5 (going on 6 due to global warming) more than 18" -24" is too deep. it takes too much energy and too long to bloom as it is. Ingrid I disagree, and my Ontario pond proves it. It's a little warmer than Wisconsin, but not much. -- derek - Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated moderators. |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Reel McKoi wrote:
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... brevity snip But I tend to agree with you, anyway. I haven't fertilized since my very early water-gardening days, and I get more blooms than ever. =============================== This fascinates me and has since you first mentioned it. Your lilies are feeding on something. How often do you clean your pond? I mean pump it out and refill it Ye gods! I wouldn't dream of doing that. There's a pump on the bottom that pumps the mulm up into the veggie filter. Pretty well all the maintenance is in the veggie filter. Is it just fish waste feeding the lilies or is there runoff from the lawn? The pond was built by digging a hole, and building up the sides with the dirt from the hole, so there's no possibility of runoff from the lawn (and I don't fertilize, anyway). There's some blown dirt - its on the edge of a farm, and come spring the ice is usually pretty dirty. However, very few trees, so no leaf debris. Are there other plants in your pond or just the lilies? Not many. Anacharis, parrot feather and irises. A number of bog plants in the bog. The "fertilizer" fueling them has to be coming from somewhere. Fish, and bare-root lilies to maximize their ability to extract nutrients from the water. -- derek - Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated moderators. |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Kurt wrote:
In article , Derek Broughton wrote: drsolo wrote: how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep. How deep would you consider deep? Five feet is not too deep for most non-dwarf hardy lilies. the lower they are the more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid Not in my experience. I start all my lilies shallow, and sink them as the leaves reach the surface. Once they have a few pads on the surface, they don't have a problem getting enough energy to push more, and they are able to spread out. My deep lilies always produce more blooms than my shallow ones. How deep is deep? LOL. I thought I'd said :-) That pond is 5' at the deep end, and that's where the best lilies are. -- derek - Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated moderators. |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Derek Broughton wrote:
Altum wrote: How can something that contains ammonia not be toxic to fish??? The fertilizers mentioned contain ammonium, not ammonia. Really close, but _much_ less toxic. Ammonium is just the protonated salt form of ammonia. NH4+ -- NH3 + H+ Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a proton and becomes ammonia. -- My other fish and pond forum is: http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Hal wrote:
You have pointed out something I've missed and must be ignored in many gardening circles, since breaking down ammonia has long been a source of fertilizer, but it begs the question where do you obtain these bulk chemicals. I've never looked for them and doubt my gardening center carries them, but would appreciate your help as to where to look. Ammonium nitrate is an awesome fertilizer for anything but a body of water containing fish - that's why most gardeners don't look any further. Even with fish, your biofilter SHOULD convert trace amounts of ammonium you add. It's just so darned toxic until it's converted that I prefer to avoid it entirely. I buy pound quantities of bulk fertilizers from http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/. My pond is 3 half-barrels (only about 90 gallons), so a pound of each chemical has lasted me for two years and I've still got some left. The salts are so cheap that shipping them often costs more than the chemicals. For potassium nitrate (KNO3) locally, look for stump remover at the hardware store. If you've got a local chemical supplier, you can get all the salts there. You may get an interesting expression if you ask for bulk potassium nitrate - it's common name is saltpetre and it makes nice explosives and fireworks. ;-) Check hydroponic suppliers for good iron/trace element fertilizers. Some also have the bulk salts. -- My other fish and pond forum is: http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... Reel McKoi wrote: "Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... brevity snip But I tend to agree with you, anyway. I haven't fertilized since my very early water-gardening days, and I get more blooms than ever. =============================== This fascinates me and has since you first mentioned it. Your lilies are feeding on something. How often do you clean your pond? I mean pump it out and refill it Ye gods! I wouldn't dream of doing that. There's a pump on the bottom that pumps the mulm up into the veggie filter. Pretty well all the maintenance is in the veggie filter. The bottom of my rubber lined ponds have a very gradual slope where I was told mulm, if any, would collect. But that's not the case. In the troublesome pond (which is actually 880g) the mulm collects all over the bottom and shelves. The pump, at the lowest point and in a prefilter of 2 black plant baskets clam-shelled together, only sucks in what's real close and pumps it to the filter. The mulm around it is left undisturbed. We have to drain them down every year to remove the fry. Since we have only a few inches of water left, we hose down the sides and use a shop vac to get the last of the dark green odorless "glop" mulm from the bottom. This glop makes excellent fertalizer for the flowers around the pond. Is it just fish waste feeding the lilies or is there runoff from the lawn? The pond was built by digging a hole, and building up the sides with the dirt from the hole, so there's no possibility of runoff from the lawn (and I don't fertilize, anyway). There's some blown dirt - its on the edge of a farm, and come spring the ice is usually pretty dirty. However, very few trees, so no leaf debris. Are there other plants in your pond or just the lilies? Not many. Anacharis, parrot feather and irises. A number of bog plants in the bog. The "fertilizer" fueling them has to be coming from somewhere. Fish, and bare-root lilies to maximize their ability to extract nutrients from the water. How do you remove the unwanted fry? Sorry but I don't remember why kind of fish you're keeping. -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ISP: Hughes.net ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Stephen Henning wrote:
Ammonium compounds and Ammonia are two different things just as Salt (sodium chloride), Sodium and Chlorine are very different things. Ammonia is NH3 a very caustic gas that produces NH4OH a caustic alkali. Ammonium compounds are salts frequently used as fertilzers. They're only different until you dissolve them in water. Then there is a pH dependent chemical equilibrium between ammonia and ammonium. NH4+ (ammonium) -- NH3 (ammonia) + H+ (protons) At the 7.5-8.0 pH ranges typical of koi ponds, the ammonia, ammonium, or whatever you want to call it is partly in the toxic NH3 form. Looking at water lily fertilizers we find that many contain ammonium compounds. For example: CrystalClear Aquatic Plant Fertilizer: 5.5% nitrogen from Ammonium Phosphate. Tetra FloraPride Aquatic Plant Fertilizer: Ammonium Heptamolybdate. Most water lily fertilizers are designed to not contaminate the pond with nitrates and phosphates. And the bacterial breakdown of urea creates ammonia, so most fertilizers do actually use ammonium compounds. Just because you can buy something at a pet or garden store doesn't mean it's good for fish. Most fishkeepers underestimate the extraordinary toxicity of ammonia to aquatic life. Pure nitrate, on the other hand, is easily tolerated by fish in the ranges appreciated by plants. Also, this thread started with bare-root lilies. If the pond isn't "contaminated" with nitrates and phosphates, the lilies will starve. -- My other fish and pond forum is: http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... LOL. I thought I'd said :-) That pond is 5' at the deep end, and that's where the best lilies are. ========================= Maybe it's the summer heat here but my lilies do best at 18" (pot top to water surface). I'm in zone 6. Long hot summers and short but often cold winters. What kind of water lilies are they to thrive in such deep water? Are they native to where you live or the ones you can pick up at Lowe's and places like Wally World? -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ISP: Hughes.net ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Altum wrote:
Ammonium is just the protonated salt form of ammonia. NH4+ -- NH3 + H+ Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a proton and becomes ammonia. Actually it becomes ammonium hydroxide. It may never become ammonia. Ammonium hydroxide is alkaline by definition. The fact that the ammonium is in salt form keeps the ammonium hydroxide from becoming very strong. That is what chemists call buffering. If what you said was true, all bottles of household ammonium hydroxide would explode since ammonium hydroxide is alkaline water and ammonia is a gas. Successful water lily food manufacturers use ammonium compounds: The Once-A-Year Aquatic-Spikes from AgSafe (a div. of AgriTab Corp., Clearfield UT) contain: Ureaform, Ammonium Phosphate, Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulfate, Calcium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Sucrate, Magnesium Sucrate, Magnesium Sulfate, Manganese Sucrate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sucrate, and Zinc Sulfate in a time release format. The are safe for fish and other aquatic life. The nitrogen in their formulation is 70% ammonium based and 30% nitrate based. -- Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to 18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6 Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Stephen Henning wrote:
Altum wrote: Ammonium is just the protonated salt form of ammonia. NH4+ -- NH3 + H+ Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a proton and becomes ammonia. Actually it becomes ammonium hydroxide. It may never become ammonia. Ammonium hydroxide is alkaline by definition. The fact that the ammonium is in salt form keeps the ammonium hydroxide from becoming very strong. That is what chemists call buffering. If what you said was true, all bottles of household ammonium hydroxide would explode since ammonium hydroxide is alkaline water and ammonia is a gas. ROFLMAO! Last time I checked, plenty of gasses (like say...oxygen?) were soluble in water. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_hydroxide Note that only 0.42% of a 1M solution of household aqueous ammonia is in the NH4+ form as ammonium hydroxide. The rest is dissolved, fish-killing NH3. Now, if you want to talk buffering, ammonium ion (NH4+) is the conjugate acid of the Lewis Base, ammonia. That's what you're adding as fertilizer, not ammonium hydroxide. The pKa of ammonium ion is 9.24. Ponds should be buffered with over 100 ppm of carbonates holding the pH steady so the ammonium salt has a minimal effect. Instead, it's protonation state is set by the pond pH. That means at a typical pond pH of 8, close to 10% of any form of NH3 or NH4+ that you add to the water as fertilizer, fish waste, or urea breakdown goes to the horribly toxic NH3 form. Then your biofilter has to handle it before it poisons the fish. Successful water lily food manufacturers use ammonium compounds: The Once-A-Year Aquatic-Spikes from AgSafe (a div. of AgriTab Corp., Clearfield UT) contain: Ureaform, Ammonium Phosphate, Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulfate, Calcium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Sucrate, Magnesium Sucrate, Magnesium Sulfate, Manganese Sucrate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sucrate, and Zinc Sulfate in a time release format. The are safe for fish and other aquatic life. The nitrogen in their formulation is 70% ammonium based and 30% nitrate based. Yeah, and you put them IN A POT, buried deep, and hope the plant uses all the ammonium before it makes it out into the water column. If it doesn't, you hope the large water volume in your pond dilutes the ammonia/ammonium enough so it doesn't cause an algae bloom and hurt your fish before it gets changed into nice, safe nitrate by the biofilter. Again, we were talking about unpotted lilies growing on concrete. You can add ammonium to your pond and see what happens. I'm sticking to nitrate. -- My other fish and pond forum is: http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
... LOL. I thought I'd said :-) That pond is 5' at the deep end, and that's where the best lilies are. ========================= Maybe it's the summer heat here but my lilies do best at 18" (pot top to water surface). I'm in zone 6. Long hot summers and short but often cold winters. What kind of water lilies are they to thrive in such deep water? Are they native to where you live or the ones you can pick up at Lowe's and places like Wally World? -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ISP: Hughes.net ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Altum wrote:
Again, we were talking about unpotted lilies growing on concrete. You can add ammonium to your pond and see what happens. I'm sticking to nitrate. Wait a minute. I just pointed out that ammonium compounds are used in plant spikes which is a product that is used in potted plants. I never advocated adding any nitrogen to the water. In fact I make a great effort to put in enough plants to remove most nitrogen from the water. As you mention, in plant spikes, ammonium, urea, and nitrate fertilizers are all used, but not in the water. The only major nutrient that should be added to the water is potash, not phosphates or nitrates or ammonium compounds. That is why it is not practical to expect to have a nice pond and also have unpotted lilies to bloom prolifically. As I mentioned, my unfertilized, unpotted lilies bloomed, but not as much as a few potted lilies. With unpotted lilies healthy water lilies probably is a sign that the water not ideal for fish. What make the lilies look good would not be good for the fish. That is a good reason to pot the lilies which is what I did in my pond. -- Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to 18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6 Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA |
How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
~ jan wrote:
On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:58:25 CST, "drsolo" wrote: in the frozen tundra of zone 5 (going on 6 due to global warming) more than 18" -24" is too deep. it takes too much energy and too long to bloom as it is. Ingrid I wonder though, if lily type has a lot to do with production? When I moved my lilies from 6-8" from the surface down to 20" some (most) have performed better, and others have not. Flowers seemed bigger. I'm sure you're right. -- derek - Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated moderators. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:42 AM. |
|
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
GardenBanter