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Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
Hi everybody!
I've been a keen freshwater aquarist for over a decade but I'm totally new to outdoor ponds and I'm not sure whether the pond that our landscape gardner is currently giving the finishing touches to is actually suitable for fish.. a few words of wisdom from the experts in this group would help me decide whether it's worth getting my hopes up.. I'm interested in keeping Koi, but even a cursory glance over the literature is giving me second thoughts about a few issues. Here's a description of the pond: Size: about 8 x 8m (24x24 feet) Depth: around 50 cm ( 2 feet) It is built with a liner on top of a generous layer of sand and the sides are made up of a concrete block wall. The whole thing will be covered by a metal grid to make it safe for our baby. This should be placed an inch or so BELOW the water surface. The gardner has already installed a fairly hefty multi-chamber filter of (very) approximately 300L (60 gallon?) and an ultra-violet unit. They've also currently planned a series of fairly powerful underwater green lights. A lot of things give me concerns there and this was clearly never planned as a Koi pond.. 1) depth: is it at all deep enough to keep koi or any other fish? The filter will obviously be kept running during the winter months and I imagine that this will help with the freezing. I also wouldn't mind heating part of the pond with an immersion heater, but it might yet be too shallow for a Koi and/or winter. I live in Luxembourg between Germany and France, so we don't have Scandinavian winters but temperature do occasionally drop under -10C. 2) metal grid/ child safety Are Koi surface feeders? would I be able to feed them properly? will it stress the fish? 3) lighting during the night? I'm not sure yet how strong this lighting will really turn out to be, but is this a problem for Koi? I'd appreciate your thoughts... Best regards, Frank |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
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Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
Others will have more useful advice than I about the fish-keeping
part, but I just wanted to mention something about this: The whole thing will be covered by a metal grid to make it safe for our baby. This should be placed an inch or so BELOW the water surface. Children (anyone for that matter) can drown in less than 2" of water. This grid won't make the pond safe for your child. If they crawl out there or slip and end up face down, you have to immediately remedy the situation. Because of that, you need to be supervising the child around the pond anyway, and therefore I think the grid is unnecessary. If possible, it would be better replaced by a gate or locked area that the child can't get past on their own. Dave |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
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Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
On May 5, 6:05 pm, San Diego Joe wrote:
wrote: 1) depth: is it at all deep enough to keep koi or any other fish? Definitely not deep enough for Koi. You could keep gold fish though. Darn.. there go my Koi owning dreams :-( Goldfish should be okay.. not really my thing, but might be more entertaining than nothing at all.. Can you mount the grid above the water? Most fish pellets float. This make s it easier to remove uneaten food and avoid contaminating the water I guess with Goldfish I could just feed them standard sinking goldfish food :-( 3) lighting during the night? I'm not sure yet how strong this lighting will really turn out to be, but is this a problem for Koi? My fish don't seem bothered by lighting, although I only have it on when I am there to watch. Don't want to provide predators with an advantage! It would be on till around midnight every night, but Goldfish are tough little critters. If the water won't freeze all the way to the bottom you should be okay, as long as you can keep a whole open through the ice. Thanks for your help. Best regards, Frank |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
Chip wrote:
Perhaps a radical idea- Could you hinge the grid (either on one side or both sides to open in the middle)? I _hope_ that's not radical - I just assumed it would be the case. It's really necessary that the grid be easily removable. Even more radical- Could you use the grid itself for heating? Perhaps with a low voltage source. Ack! This was supposed to be a safety feature :-) Really, low voltage means either low power or high current - the first restricts your heating ability and the latter means huge cables (or a transformer at the pond). Then you have the fact that your heating source would be at the surface of the pond - and radiating most of its heat into the atmosphere. -- derek |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
On May 5, 7:58 pm, Pond Addict wrote:
Children (anyone for that matter) can drown in less than 2" of water. This grid won't make the pond safe for your child. If they crawl out there or slip and end up face down, you have to immediately remedy the situation. Because of that, you need to be supervising the child around the pond anyway, and therefore I think the grid is unnecessary. If possible, it would be better replaced by a gate or locked area that the child can't get past on their own. In many of these things I'm pretty much dependent on what my landscape gardner has planned; he's already got the materials, but hasn't finished the installation yet. I still have no idea what his safety grid really looks like (fine meshed or huge gaps? sturdy enough?). As I understand it the grid will be just below the water surface at around 1 cm depth (1/2"), so should be fairly effective as a safety device. We don't intend to let our toddler run wild in the garden while we are going for a snooze, so he won't be unsupervised but even for a 2 years old there is still a difference between stepping on the grid (and being scolded) and descending into the big blue ;-) |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
On May 5, 7:59 pm, Derek Broughton wrote:
wrote: It's a bit shallow for koi, but people have kept them in worse... So, it's not a definite no-no, just a "shouldn't". If you _don't_ have koi, the UV (and filter) is pretty pointless - a water garden with only plants will stay clear on its own without As I said I'm no expert at ponds and just let the landscape gardner do his thing. I didn't think of doing very much with the pond at first, but when I saw all that filter equipment on the detailed plans, I thought.. "hhmm.. maybe I could keep fish in there". It would save me getting that 2000L Discus aquarium.. They've also currently planned a series of fairly powerful underwater green lights. It's deep enough in most places to keep goldfish. Might start with that and then see how much the pond actually freezes over in the winter. The winter outside is a big unknown for me. My fish are usually nice and warm inside. That's not really "obvious". One big problem with running a waterfall i n winter is ice damming. It's possible for ice to build up in such a way as to redirect water flow out of the pond. If that can happen, you're much better off to turn off the waterfall. Hhmm.. I think I'll have to see how it all works out this winter. I also wouldn't mind heating part of the pond with an immersion heater, That will cost you a fortune. I've read that this is fairly commonly done, just to keep an "air hole" open during the winter. I've seen Jaeger do some pond heaters that are of similar power to those used in a biggish tropical tank. Not really. It would be a good idea to insulate those concrete walls, between the concrete and the liner, with at least 3" of foam insulation, but then conductance from the soil beneath the pond should keep it from freezing solid. Too late.. Are Koi surface feeders? would I be able to feed them properly? will it stress the fish? Many people have done this, it shouldn't be a problem. They're not stri ctly surface feeders, but they will come to the surface if food's there. The y can suck pretty well :-) If the grid is only an inch below water surface they won't have trouble. What size is the grid? If the spacing is mo re than 3", they probably won't even notice it. Haven't see it yet.. 3) lighting during the night? No idea, but you'd want a switch anyway, wouldn't you? There's no point leaving the lights on if nobody is there to see, unless you're thinking of it as a safety feature (being able to _see_ if your child's in the pond - in which case motion detector external lights are probably more use). It's actually going to be on one of those fancy light level detectors and timed to switch off at midnight.. LEDs so it shouldn't consume too much electricity. The pond is actually quite a feature for the lounge (!?) as one of the walls is completely built in glass.. thus the fancy lighting at night. My son should long be in bed before the lights come on and no way is going in the garden in the dark :-) |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
On May 5, 8:00 pm, Chip wrote:
San Diego Joe wrote: wrote: Hi everybody! I've been a keen freshwater aquarist for over a decade but I'm totally new to outdoor ponds and I'm not sure whether the pond that our landscape gardner is currently giving the finishing touches to is actually suitable for fish.. a few words of wisdom from the experts in this group would help me decide whether it's worth getting my hopes up.. I'm interested in keeping Koi, but even a cursory glance over the literature is giving me second thoughts about a few issues. Here's a description of the pond: Size: about 8 x 8m (24x24 feet) Depth: around 50 cm ( 2 feet) It is built with a liner on top of a generous layer of sand and the sides are made up of a concrete block wall. The whole thing will be covered by a metal grid to make it safe for our baby. This should be placed an inch or so BELOW the water surface. The gardner has already installed a fairly hefty multi-chamber filter of (very) approximately 300L (60 gallon?) and an ultra-violet unit. They've also currently planned a series of fairly powerful underwater green lights. A lot of things give me concerns there and this was clearly never planned as a Koi pond.. 1) depth: is it at all deep enough to keep koi or any other fish? Definitely not deep enough for Koi. You could keep gold fish though. The filter will obviously be kept running during the winter months and I imagine that this will help with the freezing. I also wouldn't mind heating part of the pond with an immersion heater, but it might yet be too shallow for a Koi and/or winter. I live in Luxembourg between Germany and France, so we don't have Scandinavian winters but temperature do occasionally drop under -10C. 2) metal grid/ child safety Are Koi surface feeders? would I be able to feed them properly? will it stress the fish? Can you mount the grid above the water? Most fish pellets float. This ma kes it easier to remove uneaten food and avoid contaminating the water 3) lighting during the night? I'm not sure yet how strong this lighting will really turn out to be, but is this a problem for Koi? My fish don't seem bothered by lighting, although I only have it on when I am there to watch. Don't want to provide predators with an advantage! If the water won't freeze all the way to the bottom you should be okay, as long as you can keep a whole open through the ice. San Diego Joe 4,000 - 5,000 Gallons. Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo. Perhaps a radical idea- Could you hinge the grid (either on one side or both sides to open in the middle)? This would allow you easy access to the pond for cleaning, feeding, and netting. or any other means to easily move a section out of the way like a trap door. Too late. Gardner's got the stuff already, just haven't seen it yet.. Even more radical- Could you use the grid itself for heating? Perhaps with a low voltage source. Wow. Those are some neat ideas but I don't think I'll try my hand at electricity + water until I'm a bit of pro :-) You didn't mention a bottom drain or a skimmer. Both seem to be high on koi ponders' lists of things I SHOULD have done. Yes, I've seen the stuff on the bottom drain and/or skimmer, but I'm afraid the liner's in already. I think next time I'll be better prepared :-) This time over, I just got the idea of keeping fish in the pond when I saw that the gardner had already put a decent filter in.. so why not? |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
IMO, the best way to keep a hole in the ice is air.
I'm in zone 4/5 and my pond gets 10" of ice, easy. With an outdoor air pump and and air stones I'm able to keep two 1.5' holes open all winter, and it's cheap. Dave |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
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Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
On Mon, 5 May 2008 17:21:24 EDT, wrote:
Yes, I've seen the stuff on the bottom drain and/or skimmer, but I'm afraid the liner's in already. There are over the side bottom drains & skimmers.... for the future, see my website what we did the following year. Just don't let your gardener line it with rocks. ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
Derek Broughton wrote: Chip wrote: Perhaps a radical idea- Could you hinge the grid (either on one side or both sides to open in the middle)? I _hope_ that's not radical - I just assumed it would be the case. It's really necessary that the grid be easily removable. Even more radical- Could you use the grid itself for heating? Perhaps with a low voltage source. Ack! This was supposed to be a safety feature :-) Really, low voltage means either low power or high current - the first restricts your heating ability and the latter means huge cables (or a transformer at the pond). Then you have the fact that your heating source would be at the surface of the pond - and radiating most of its heat into the atmosphere. You also have to think about plants growing through the grid and how to handle that. San Diego Joe 4,000 - 5,000 Gallons. Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo. |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
Although people would like more depth, you can in fact keep koi in
your pond. The rule of thumb is 1,000 Gal for the first koi and 100 for each additional one. Your pond is something like 7,000 US gallons. It is a bit on the shallow side, but if it will not freeze, they will survive fine in it. I am trying to imagine a metal grid for an 8 meter pond! A lot of us would want to encourage you to have your gardenr work out some sort of veggie filter rather than only a mechanical one. Saves work! You can fit a bottom drain and have a waterfall, even if it is not built in. Keep us posted, or post some pics or drawings somewhere. Folks will have lots of ideas for you. Our pond is 12 x 22 x 2 and has handled the koi fine for more than a decade. You can see it on our google profile link. Best to you. Jim |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
On Mon, 5 May 2008 10:45:33 EDT, wrote:
I'm interested in keeping Koi, but even a cursory glance over the literature is giving me second thoughts about a few issues. Here's a description of the pond: Size: about 8 x 8m (24x24 feet) Depth: around 50 cm ( 2 feet) I wouldn't give up on koi unless you want to raise competition fish instead of just pretty fish to enjoy. If you want to keep competition fish of high quality ranging from $250 for a fish that probably will grow into a real winning fish to several thousand for ribbon winners, I would suggest you are screwed and must begin again with a very deep pocket full of money. OTOH I've just posted a picture of a pond Joanne and Wayman's pond that is only about 2' deep and has no bottom drain also has stones covering the bottom and these things are all wrong, so who cares, since Joanne and Wayman like their pond and the sight of their fish and don't give a hoot about the finer shape, color, competition, Japanese terminology and price someone else is willing to pay for a fish. They simply enjoy their pond and fish. I hope you can find a way to work things out and enjoy koi too. -- Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8 http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
You also have to think about plants growing through the grid and how to
handle that. Easy. No plants. |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
You have to imagine how large koi get. They easily reach two feet in length.
I've seen them in a foot of water, but I felt very sad for the fish. Imagine you are 6 feet tall and live in a room 6'-2" high. Point taken. Koi was just the first thing to come to mind and then of course there was the huge Koi pond in our Hotel over the Easter break that got me thinking.. Goldfish on the other hand never had it better ;-) Any other cold water fish that would fair well in that depth pond? |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
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Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
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Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
OTOH I've just posted a picture of a pond Joanne and Wayman's pond that is only about 2' deep and has no bottom drain also has stones covering the bottom and these things are all wrong, so who cares, since Joanne and Wayman like their pond and the sight of their fish and don't give a hoot about the finer shape, color, competition, Japanese terminology and price someone else is willing to pay for a fish. They simply enjoy their pond and fish. I hope you can find a way to work things out and enjoy koi too. Thanks Hal, I can see that there are different schools of thought on the newsgroup. I don't really care about having the best(est) fish and would enjoy a couple of nice small (but healthy) Koi. A lot of aquarium fish simply stay small in a smaller tank, ie. large tank - large fish, small tank - small fish Is this the same with the Koi? There are of course aquarium fish that do grow irrespective of the size of their habitat.. |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
On May 6, 3:52 pm, Phyllis and Jim wrote:
Although people would like more depth, you can in fact keep koi in your pond. The rule of thumb is 1,000 Gal for the first koi and 100 for each additional one. Your pond is something like 7,000 US gallons. It is a bit on the shallow side, but if it will not freeze, they will survive fine in it. Cheers. I am trying to imagine a metal grid for an 8 meter pond! I'm going to see it on Saturday if everything works out ok.. A lot of us would want to encourage you to have your gardenr work out some sort of veggie filter rather than only a mechanical one. Saves work! Yes, just like the plant aquarium keepers.. a bit late in my case and I can't imagine plants looking right in this pond. You can fit a bottom drain and have a waterfall, even if it is not built in. Excellent. I'll have to do some further reading up now that I know that there might well be a point to it. Keep us posted, or post some pics or drawings somewhere. Folks will have lots of ideas for you. Will do. Our pond is 12 x 22 x 2 and has handled the koi fine for more than a decade. You can see it on our google profile link. I'll have a look now. Thanks again. |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
No plants!!! What's the point...?
We just wanted some water in the garden and the landscaper came out with this substitute swimming pool idea and it plays much that role (minus the swimming of course). Nice gently watery sounds and water reflections inside.. just imagine the pan pipes playing in the background ;-) |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
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Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
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Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
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Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
~ jan wrote:
On Tue, 6 May 2008 13:59:36 EDT, wrote: Yes, just like the plant aquarium keepers.. a bit late in my case and I can't imagine plants looking right in this pond. We're not talking aquarium-type plants. See my webpages. ~ jan Well, he does have a glass wall, so he _could_ have aquarium type plants. I understand (no, probably better to say "recognize" - I don't really understand) the concept of formal, unplanted, ponds, but I just can't imagine actually _doing_ it :-) -- derek |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
On Tue, 6 May 2008 13:59:34 EDT, wrote:
A lot of aquarium fish simply stay small in a smaller tank, ie. large tank - large fish, small tank - small fish Is this the same with the Koi? Can't say for sure. Lots of people have opinions, but few have enough tanks and do controlled experiments to prove their opinions. I did see the 5 koi (One died shortly after arriving.) and 35 shubunkin I got in a box grow nicely, the 4 koi that survived in the 1500 gallon pond were all slightly different sizes. The female (not the biggest of the 4.) produced some that grew almost a large as she in what seemed like a shorter time than it took the original 4 to reach that size. Another thing mine were long fin or butterfly koi and short fin seem to grow bigger. I boarded a couple short fins for a guy working on his pond, he said was 600 gallons and they were bigger than any of my long fins living in 1500 gallons. "My guess" is the amount of feed available and genes has as much to do with koi size as tank size within reason. Reason being 1000+100 gallons for each additional koi and/or adequate filtering as a start. Ten of the biggest I've seen more than once were in what George (the owner) said was about 800 gallons of gin clear water with adequate filtering. George was a former aquarium keeper too and he spent a lot of time tinkering with his filters. I'm sure you will get a handle on things and find your own way, just hang in. -- Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8 http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
On Wed, 7 May 2008 09:54:14 EDT, Derek Broughton
wrote: I understand (no, probably better to say "recognize" - I don't really understand) the concept of formal, unplanted, ponds, but I just can't imagine actually _doing_ it :-) Ditto. I'd still want a healthy growth of fuzz algae and a well planted veggie filter as a back drop. Truthfully the coolest thing, imo, is seeing the fish swimming in and out of the plants. ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
NO FISH. to keep it clean you may need to use pool chems, or an ozonator. I would
think a grid that will hold a child would be an eyesore!!! it would have been better to use a motion detector with an alarm to signal the child is near the pond... or in conjunction, a water scarecrow to douse the child if it got close to the pond despite your warnings to stay away. I am afraid your gardener is a twit. this is likely to be a green stinking mess in a couple months. and no way to clean it. it is easy to construct a nice sounding fountain out of a barrel sunk in the ground and filled with large rocks so there is no standing water. much cheaper too. and could have put a few plants in there. little to no work at all keeping it clean. On Mon, 5 May 2008 10:45:33 EDT, wrote: Hi everybody! I've been a keen freshwater aquarist for over a decade but I'm totally new to outdoor ponds and I'm not sure whether the pond that our landscape gardner is currently giving the finishing touches to is actually suitable for fish.. a few words of wisdom from the experts in this group would help me decide whether it's worth getting my hopes up.. I'm interested in keeping Koi, but even a cursory glance over the literature is giving me second thoughts about a few issues. Here's a description of the pond: Size: about 8 x 8m (24x24 feet) Depth: around 50 cm ( 2 feet) It is built with a liner on top of a generous layer of sand and the sides are made up of a concrete block wall. The whole thing will be covered by a metal grid to make it safe for our baby. This should be placed an inch or so BELOW the water surface. The gardner has already installed a fairly hefty multi-chamber filter of (very) approximately 300L (60 gallon?) and an ultra-violet unit. They've also currently planned a series of fairly powerful underwater green lights. A lot of things give me concerns there and this was clearly never planned as a Koi pond.. 1) depth: is it at all deep enough to keep koi or any other fish? The filter will obviously be kept running during the winter months and I imagine that this will help with the freezing. I also wouldn't mind heating part of the pond with an immersion heater, but it might yet be too shallow for a Koi and/or winter. I live in Luxembourg between Germany and France, so we don't have Scandinavian winters but temperature do occasionally drop under -10C. 2) metal grid/ child safety Are Koi surface feeders? would I be able to feed them properly? will it stress the fish? 3) lighting during the night? I'm not sure yet how strong this lighting will really turn out to be, but is this a problem for Koi? I'd appreciate your thoughts... Best regards, Frank |
Koi & Pond Newbie Questions
I agree that algae will be a problem. Even with UV, with no plants and
such a large shallow pool of water, it's going to be difficult. How does the water get back in the pond after the filter? There's no waterfall, right? Aside from the aesthetics of a waterfall, it also provides necessary aeration, so you may need to do something about that as well. Dave |
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