Hi all,

First time posting here. I am in the process of working on a larger rubber
lined pond (about 210,000 gallons). I am trying my best to get it to
sustain itself but as I get into the pump and skimmer parts I am looking at
my options for filtration.

I guess up front I should let you in on the pond itself. At the deepest it
is about 12' deep. I have ledges that vary in depth from 2' to 4' around
the edge, which I plan using for plant life. I also have a low area which
is about 800 sqfeet total at about 9 to 18 inches deep for plant life (and
hopefully a natural filter system). Later I plan on creating a stream into
it that will run about 70' and drop a total of maybe 8' over that span.

I did build a fairly larger skimmer and basket from scratch ( 3' x 2' ' x 2'
deep) and have a 3" pipe off of that supplying a temporary setup to a 1.5 hp
pump (recycled from a pool). This pump is returning the water to the top of
the pond through a 1.5" pipe, and I have a reducer to create a nice jet.
Seems to work well as the top water is spinning into the skimmer.

Now I am looking to extend the buried piping about another 8' into a shack
that I am building on an exsisting concrete slab (say maybe 12' x 8'). In
this I will house my pumps and other related matter.

So here is my thinking. I ran the 3" pipe from the skimmer to allow me to
run two pumps. The 1.5hp that will return water to the pond. And another
pump (to be purchased) to run water up the hill to the top of the stream.
I also imagine I could valve the plumbing right so that I could have either
pump do both jobs (pump up hill and return water to the pond in case
something went wrong).

I am also thinking that either a bio filter or a sand filter is in order. I
have access to some cheep 55 gal barrels but am having a hard time finding
any link through Google for plans for a decent one.

Now I do know that according to some of the data that I have seen, there is
now way that I could filter the entire pond through a sand or bio filter. I
would like the pond to be self sufficant in that regards, but I do feel that
if I could put a couple of decent size filters in place, it would help from
time to time as needed.

Some questions that I have on the bio filters :

1. A good link to a website with plans. I am looking for an enclosed system
that will be pumped through and not the water fall type that I keep running
into.

2. I have read in a couple of places that for a bio-filter to be effective
it needs water running over it 24/7. I would like to avoid this due to $.
Any truth to this?

3. If I do run a bio filter (or a sand filter for that matter), should I
send the return water up to the stream, or return it to the pond?

4. Obviously I would plumb the bio filter so that it can be on or off.
Anyone see an issue with this? Or should I set up a cycle that flushes it
out for a set period each day? As I would like the pond to sustain itself.

Some questions I have on a sand filter :

1. Should I even think about it for temporay use? One reason I was
thinking of making one was for cleaning of the bottom as I have no bottom
drain (opening doors on that one).

2. I was thinking of using a submersable fountain as a type of bottom
drain. Get some of the sediment from the bottom mixed with the water and
then let it get to the filters.

3. Again any links to a website that has decent plans for a sand filter?


Also any comments on pump sizes. I am wondering if 1.5hp is too much for
the skimmer and I might be able to drop down to a smaller pump and use the
1.5hp to pump up the hill.

And last but not least. The concrete slab where the pumps will be sitting
will be about 1.5' higher then the water level. Am I to assume that
back-flow valves will solve my problems once I get the pumps primed, or
should I be looking at self priming pumps?


Any comments would be appreciated. I have thick skin so if I am doing
something wrong have at it.


Thanks,
Chris

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:58:18 -0400, "Chris" wrote:

First time posting here. I am in the process of working on a larger rubber
lined pond (about 210,000 gallons).

Wow.

Later I plan on creating a stream into
it that will run about 70' and drop a total of maybe 8' over that span.

This you should plan sooner rather than later, it can be your source of
filtration. Make it wide with small shallow pools to hold filtering plants.

and have a 3" pipe off of that supplying a temporary setup to a 1.5 hp
pump (recycled from a pool).

Where is this pipe sucking from, bottom drain perhaps? My concern would be
not getting enough flow thru a 3" pipe, nor enough out of a 1.5" pipe back
to the pond.

have access to some cheep 55 gal barrels but am having a hard time finding
any link through Google for plans for a decent one.

www.jjspond.us Click on *My Filter* *Demo Pond Filter* and *Lily Pond* all
have various info on 55 gallon barrel filter and how we ran the bottom
drain & skimmer pipe connection (Lily Pond).

Some questions that I have on the bio filters :

1. A good link to a website with plans. I am looking for an enclosed system
that will be pumped through and not the water fall type that I keep running
into.

Might start with reading about pond construction and filtration at
www.acka.org. Click on the menu, click on Koi Health Advisors and various
articles will come up.

2. I have read in a couple of places that for a bio-filter to be effective
it needs water running over it 24/7. I would like to avoid this due to $.
Any truth to this?

Good bacteria is aerobic, without constant flow it doesn't multiply, and
therefore you'll never establish bio-filtration in the filter.

3. If I do run a bio filter (or a sand filter for that matter), should I
send the return water up to the stream, or return it to the pond?

Stream, imo.

4. Obviously I would plumb the bio filter so that it can be on or off.
Anyone see an issue with this? Or should I set up a cycle that flushes it
out for a set period each day? As I would like the pond to sustain itself.

I'm not sure what you mean by sustain itself? In a man made closed system
there is always going to be needed maintenance. The bigger the pond, the
proper filtration the less often the maintenance. Keep in the mind the life
cycle of a lake is to fill in and become a swamp.

Some questions I have on a sand filter :

1. Should I even think about it for temporay use? One reason I was
thinking of making one was for cleaning of the bottom as I have no bottom
drain (opening doors on that one).

What is your plan for getting the muck off the bottom?

2. I was thinking of using a submersable fountain as a type of bottom
drain. Get some of the sediment from the bottom mixed with the water and
then let it get to the filters.

3. Again any links to a website that has decent plans for a sand filter?


Also any comments on pump sizes. I am wondering if 1.5hp is too much for
the skimmer and I might be able to drop down to a smaller pump and use the
1.5hp to pump up the hill.

And last but not least. The concrete slab where the pumps will be sitting
will be about 1.5' higher then the water level. Am I to assume that
back-flow valves will solve my problems once I get the pumps primed, or
should I be looking at self priming pumps?


Any comments would be appreciated. I have thick skin so if I am doing
something wrong have at it.
Chris

Chris, to be honest, if money is at all a concern, I'd scale down the size
and go for easy to maintain infrastructure. Look into Vortex filters, look
into pond pumps, not swimming pool pumps. They cost more, but are usually
more efficient power-usage-wise. Bottom drains....

But, I'm wondering, this sounds like a done deal? Pond already in? ~ jan
--------------
See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website
-----------------

Also ponding troll free at:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium

Hi Chris,

You have an ambitious project there, to say the least. I will comment
on only one issue, the bio-filter, as I have a bit of experience
there.

You seem to be considering the bio-filter as a separate process and
are therefore troubled by the need to move the water through it. Yet,
you already plan on a stream. Why not put the bio-filter in the
stream?

That is what I did (much smaller pond) and it works great. I put a
wide spot, mini-pond if you will, in the stream and put lots of plants
such as a hyacinth in it. That is the only filter I have and my water
is crystal clear.

John

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:58:18 -0400, "Chris"
wrote:

Hi all,

First time posting here. I am in the process of working on a larger rubber
lined pond (about 210,000 gallons). I am trying my best to get it to
sustain itself but as I get into the pump and skimmer parts I am looking at
my options for filtration.

I guess up front I should let you in on the pond itself. At the deepest it
is about 12' deep. I have ledges that vary in depth from 2' to 4' around
the edge, which I plan using for plant life. I also have a low area which
is about 800 sqfeet total at about 9 to 18 inches deep for plant life (and
hopefully a natural filter system). Later I plan on creating a stream into
it that will run about 70' and drop a total of maybe 8' over that span.

I did build a fairly larger skimmer and basket from scratch ( 3' x 2' ' x 2'
deep) and have a 3" pipe off of that supplying a temporary setup to a 1.5 hp
pump (recycled from a pool). This pump is returning the water to the top of
the pond through a 1.5" pipe, and I have a reducer to create a nice jet.
Seems to work well as the top water is spinning into the skimmer.

Now I am looking to extend the buried piping about another 8' into a shack
that I am building on an exsisting concrete slab (say maybe 12' x 8'). In
this I will house my pumps and other related matter.

So here is my thinking. I ran the 3" pipe from the skimmer to allow me to
run two pumps. The 1.5hp that will return water to the pond. And another
pump (to be purchased) to run water up the hill to the top of the stream.
I also imagine I could valve the plumbing right so that I could have either
pump do both jobs (pump up hill and return water to the pond in case
something went wrong).

I am also thinking that either a bio filter or a sand filter is in order. I
have access to some cheep 55 gal barrels but am having a hard time finding
any link through Google for plans for a decent one.

Now I do know that according to some of the data that I have seen, there is
now way that I could filter the entire pond through a sand or bio filter. I
would like the pond to be self sufficant in that regards, but I do feel that
if I could put a couple of decent size filters in place, it would help from
time to time as needed.

Some questions that I have on the bio filters :

1. A good link to a website with plans. I am looking for an enclosed system
that will be pumped through and not the water fall type that I keep running
into.

2. I have read in a couple of places that for a bio-filter to be effective
it needs water running over it 24/7. I would like to avoid this due to $.
Any truth to this?

3. If I do run a bio filter (or a sand filter for that matter), should I
send the return water up to the stream, or return it to the pond?

4. Obviously I would plumb the bio filter so that it can be on or off.
Anyone see an issue with this? Or should I set up a cycle that flushes it
out for a set period each day? As I would like the pond to sustain itself.

Some questions I have on a sand filter :

1. Should I even think about it for temporay use? One reason I was
thinking of making one was for cleaning of the bottom as I have no bottom
drain (opening doors on that one).

2. I was thinking of using a submersable fountain as a type of bottom
drain. Get some of the sediment from the bottom mixed with the water and
then let it get to the filters.

3. Again any links to a website that has decent plans for a sand filter?


Also any comments on pump sizes. I am wondering if 1.5hp is too much for
the skimmer and I might be able to drop down to a smaller pump and use the
1.5hp to pump up the hill.

And last but not least. The concrete slab where the pumps will be sitting
will be about 1.5' higher then the water level. Am I to assume that
back-flow valves will solve my problems once I get the pumps primed, or
should I be looking at self priming pumps?


Any comments would be appreciated. I have thick skin so if I am doing
something wrong have at it.


Thanks,
Chris

"~ janj" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:58:18 -0400, "Chris"
wrote:

First time posting here. I am in the process of working on a larger
rubber
lined pond (about 210,000 gallons).

Wow.

Later I plan on creating a stream into
it that will run about 70' and drop a total of maybe 8' over that span.

This you should plan sooner rather than later, it can be your source of
filtration. Make it wide with small shallow pools to hold filtering
plants.

and have a 3" pipe off of that supplying a temporary setup to a 1.5 hp
pump (recycled from a pool).

Where is this pipe sucking from, bottom drain perhaps? My concern would be
not getting enough flow thru a 3" pipe, nor enough out of a 1.5" pipe back
to the pond.

have access to some cheep 55 gal barrels but am having a hard time finding
any link through Google for plans for a decent one.

www.jjspond.us Click on *My Filter* *Demo Pond Filter* and *Lily Pond* all
have various info on 55 gallon barrel filter and how we ran the bottom
drain & skimmer pipe connection (Lily Pond).

Some questions that I have on the bio filters :

1. A good link to a website with plans. I am looking for an enclosed
system
that will be pumped through and not the water fall type that I keep
running
into.

Might start with reading about pond construction and filtration at
www.acka.org. Click on the menu, click on Koi Health Advisors and various
articles will come up.

2. I have read in a couple of places that for a bio-filter to be
effective
it needs water running over it 24/7. I would like to avoid this due to $.
Any truth to this?

Good bacteria is aerobic, without constant flow it doesn't multiply, and
therefore you'll never establish bio-filtration in the filter.

That is what I thought. Seems like I would need to run it 24/7. So not I
need to look into that.

3. If I do run a bio filter (or a sand filter for that matter), should I
send the return water up to the stream, or return it to the pond?

Stream, imo.
Sounds fair.

4. Obviously I would plumb the bio filter so that it can be on or off.
Anyone see an issue with this? Or should I set up a cycle that flushes it
out for a set period each day? As I would like the pond to sustain
itself.

I'm not sure what you mean by sustain itself? In a man made closed system
there is always going to be needed maintenance. The bigger the pond, the
proper filtration the less often the maintenance. Keep in the mind the
life
cycle of a lake is to fill in and become a swamp.

Well I am not trying to make it a perfectly clear pond, more on the natural
side. I am not looking to hold Koi or such in it, just trying to keep it as
natural as possible, meaning it takes care of itself.

Some questions I have on a sand filter :

1. Should I even think about it for temporay use? One reason I was
thinking of making one was for cleaning of the bottom as I have no bottom
drain (opening doors on that one).

What is your plan for getting the muck off the bottom?

Right now I was thinking of a fountain to disperse some of the small matter
off the bottom. Not sure if that will work. If not then a bottom drain
would be in order. I do have plenty of bottom though and that might allow
me just to pump it out from time to time?

2. I was thinking of using a submersable fountain as a type of bottom
drain. Get some of the sediment from the bottom mixed with the water and
then let it get to the filters.

3. Again any links to a website that has decent plans for a sand filter?


Also any comments on pump sizes. I am wondering if 1.5hp is too much for
the skimmer and I might be able to drop down to a smaller pump and use the
1.5hp to pump up the hill.

And last but not least. The concrete slab where the pumps will be sitting
will be about 1.5' higher then the water level. Am I to assume that
back-flow valves will solve my problems once I get the pumps primed, or
should I be looking at self priming pumps?


Any comments would be appreciated. I have thick skin so if I am doing
something wrong have at it.
Chris

Chris, to be honest, if money is at all a concern, I'd scale down the size
and go for easy to maintain infrastructure. Look into Vortex filters, look
into pond pumps, not swimming pool pumps. They cost more, but are usually
more efficient power-usage-wise. Bottom drains....

Sizing down it not an option at the moment as the pond is full and running.
I am curious as to the comment on pond pumps? I was not aware of this. How
are they more efficent? As the two pumps I would be using are going to be
on the rather large size, efficency is a major plus for me. Again the pool
pump is just a 1 year old pump I had from an above ground pool that is
gone.

But, I'm wondering, this sounds like a done deal? Pond already in? ~ jan
--------------

Thanks for the help and the link to your website.

Chris

"John Bachman" wrote in message
...
Hi Chris,

You have an ambitious project there, to say the least. I will comment
on only one issue, the bio-filter, as I have a bit of experience
there.

You seem to be considering the bio-filter as a separate process and
are therefore troubled by the need to move the water through it. Yet,
you already plan on a stream. Why not put the bio-filter in the
stream?

That is what I did (much smaller pond) and it works great. I put a
wide spot, mini-pond if you will, in the stream and put lots of plants
such as a hyacinth in it. That is the only filter I have and my water
is crystal clear.

John

John,
Sounds like something I should be thinking of. I do have the area in the
pond itself for plenty of plant life, but the idea of mini-ponds in the
stream sounds like an excellent idea. More or less pools within the stream.
I am defiantly going to do some thinkin on this one. But then the questions
remains, do I need to run the stream 24/7? I think it would be less of a
concern with a nartural biofilter such as this, rather then a biofilter in a
barrel. Or am I wrong in this thinking?

Care to share the size of your pond and the flow rate for the stream? Would
help me along as well.

Thanks,
Chris

Sizing down it not an option at the moment as the pond is full and running.
I am curious as to the comment on pond pumps? I was not aware of this. How
are they more efficent? As the two pumps I would be using are going to be
on the rather large size, efficency is a major plus for me. Again the pool
pump is just a 1 year old pump I had from an above ground pool that is
gone.

Chris, it has been awhile since rec.ponds had a good discussion on this, so
I'm a bit rusty. The best I can say is research it. Check into the
Superfalls pump, compare it's output to energy use against your pool pump.
www.pondshop.com They are spending, and there other brands of pond pumps
out there, I'm just giving this link as a place to start. Also check gph in
relationship to head. Some pumps have great gph until they have vertical
rise to deal with. Hi head verses Lo head.

www.aquaticeco.com would be another place to check, not to mention call.
This is a big outfit with people willing to help in all things aqua culture
related. Get their catalog, I think you're gonna need it. It is free.

Fountains will move the fines, but heavy stuff will settle out and sit on
the bottom, over time that bottom will fill up.... and you'll be surprised
how fast. In 2 seasons (1.5 years), before we put the bottom drain in, I
had 6" of muck on the bottom of my lower pond. ~ jan
-----------------

Also ponding troll free at:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium