Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
Zëbulon wrote:

"scs0" wrote in message
ups.com...


Any ideas on what's going on? If so, what do I do about it?

===================================
Check this site:

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...phocystis.html

I had a beautiful deep yellow female diamond-scale butterfly koi with
this disease. It looked exactly like what your fish has. She would appear
cured at times but it always came back. She went to a farm stock pond
rather than keep her with the other fish and possibly infect them.
==================
This is what you said....this is suggesting someone go dump a fish
somewhere else..

No, the "suggestion" is all in your mind. I "suggested" no such thing. I
said what I did with my fish.

...by disagreeing with this I am not trolling you or
carrying out anything you have going on in your head...

The stop claiming I'm "suggesting" anything. I said what I did with my fish.
OMG... what would you have done had he had a heron problem and I told him to
shoot and kill it!!!!! :-O

..I am saying that
this is irresponsible and bad advice....

There is NO ADVICE. I said what I did with my fish.

You sent her to a pond where she
would/could infect other fish....but not yours.....

What other fish? What other fish did you see in that small stock pond when
you came her to check it?

..you should have
taken the responsible action of euthanising this fish not releasing it
elsewhere to infect others.....

Other what? What other fish did you see in that small stock pond when you
came here to TN (USA) to check it? Are you going to claim you came all the
way from the UK and SAW other fish in the small stock pond? What's the
difference except for filtration between the stock pond and my pond? I
notice not one of you will answer that. You will keep beating the same old
drum. Now for the record Gill. I've mentioned many times on this group
that I've put fish in a stock pond and not one person slashed at my throat
over it until your friend Roy Hauer did - then boy oh boy, you jumped right
in, not even knowing a damn thing about the pond where that fish went. Where
were you and your good buddy (now that you realize it wouldn't work with me)
all those past years Gill?

You just don't get it do you....

Gill,... you are so full of it! This BS started with you when I refused to
go away and sneak back with a new persona so Roy Tristan Hauer and Antonio L
Santana, two obsessed trolls, would stop disrupting these NGs. Until then
you didn't twist everything I said. Now you've gone so far as to claim
there were other fish in a pond thousands of miles from where you live and
could not possibly have examined for other fish. I know your motive Gill, I
just want others to know what it is as well. You will do anything to get
Roy to shut up and stop trolling here and for Jabbers to leave. If that
means you have to stoop to bearing my throat for the kill you are willing to
do it. If that means harassing me off the group you're willing to do that
as well. You have no integrity and little honesty and I hope you decide not
to be a moderator. You're carrying too much baggage with you......... SHAME
ON YOU!
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"Tristan" wrote in message
...


Its already been done along with her name, addrress and phone
number.......


mmmmmmmmm......if they (Fish and Wildlife) do respond will they also be
accused of trolling and jumping on the bandwagon?

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"Killjoy" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Zëbulon" wrote in message
===========================
You still haven't answered the question as to why it's so dangerous for a
koi with pox to be in a man made stock
pond but it's not dangerous for it to be a man made ornamental pond. Why
don't you answer the question? What is the difference between the two
ponds
except my ponds are filtered and the stock pond isn't.


Perhaps someone could forward your post about dumping a diseased
non-native fish in a farm pond to the Tennessee fish and wildlife office
and let them explain it to you.
=====================
Why don't YOU explain it to me? Why are you avoiding the question and
beating around the bush? That should be easy for you - no? What's the
difference except my ponds are filtered?
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"Zëbulon" wrote

Why don't YOU explain it to me?

Because it has become quite evident that you will not accept an explanation
from me or anyone else on this NG. Hopefully Tenn. Fish and Wildlife and
maybe even the EPA will have satisfactory explanations. Environmental
agencies frown upon dumping diseased non-native fish, especially so close to
a lake.

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:36:41 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

That was one fish. You still haven't
replied why it's so dangerous for a koi with pox to be in a man made stock
pond but it's not dangerous for it to be a man made ornamental pond.

I raise my hand, even though you won't answer my questions straight up.

You keep your ponds netted so herons can't fly off with your fish, and than
accidentally drop them in a natural waterway. I assume the stock pond is
not netted, this is usually the case since it would be detrimental to the
stock to drink from it, and get caught in netting? Thus a heron could catch
and release right into a natural waterway. Not only has this happened,
we've had ponders locally come home to a strange, but dead fish in their
pond. Now if that isn't scary, I don't know what is.

Even if your koi, for a fact, proven with a culture only had carp pox, that
in and of itself IS contagious, low contagion, but still contagious.

You just jumped right on the bandwagon. ;-)

Guess I'm guilty of that also, check please, I ready to disembark. ~ jan

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"Killjoy" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Zëbulon" wrote

Why don't YOU explain it to me?

Because it has become quite evident that you will not accept an
explanation from me or anyone else on this NG.

Try me instead of sidestepping the question. What's the difference in a
stock pond and an ornamental pond?

Hopefully Tenn. Fish and Wildlife and
maybe even the EPA will have satisfactory explanations. Environmental
agencies frown upon dumping diseased non-native fish, especially so close
to a lake.

And you know where this small stock pond is located? How close to the lake
is it and why is it more dangerous then keeping the koi in my own pond when
the only difference is my ponds are filtered?
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:36:41 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

That was one fish. You still haven't
replied why it's so dangerous for a koi with pox to be in a man made stock
pond but it's not dangerous for it to be a man made ornamental pond.

I raise my hand, even though you won't answer my questions straight up.

You keep your ponds netted so herons can't fly off with your fish, and
than
accidentally drop them in a natural waterway.

No Heron is going to carry an adult koi several miles and drop in anywhere.
Also Jan, the tub that fish was in was not netted because she was too large
for a heron or kingfisher. Are you saying that anyone who has a fish with
pox must net their pond or holding tanks? The only things netted around
here are holding fish small enough for the large bullfrogs, turtles or
herons to take.

I assume the stock pond is
not netted, this is usually the case since it would be detrimental to the
stock to drink from it, and get caught in netting?

I also assume most ponds are not netted, and pox, not being fatal, is not an
uncommon infection. I have seen it on local pond tours and few of those
ponds were netted.

Thus a heron could catch
and release right into a natural waterway. Not only has this happened,
we've had ponders locally come home to a strange, but dead fish in their
pond. Now if that isn't scary, I don't know what is.

Of course it is. But I can't stop a snake or snapper from getting through a
net and carrying off a fish and dropping it somewhere either. No one can
guarantee that unless their pond is indoors. What do we do Jan... get rid of
all our fish? This was a huge adult female no heron could lift no less
carry several miles. I'm not far from a lake and there has never been a
report of anyone catching goldfish, koi or any other exotic introduced
species there in all the years I've lived here. No wait... one summer
someone hooked a pacu and thought it was a piranha.

Even if your koi, for a fact, proven with a culture only had carp pox,
that
in and of itself IS contagious, low contagion, but still contagious.

So? See above. Any heron that can carry off a koi as large as she was
would have to be twice the size of an eagle. There are no birds here that
large. There is no way anyone can guarantee any fish kept outside will not
be hauled off by some predator.

You just jumped right on the bandwagon. ;-)

Guess I'm guilty of that also, check please, I ready to disembark. ~ jan

Before jumping on the bandwagon perhaps a few questions asked would be
helpful instead of immediately going for the throat... something that never
happened on this group before.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 23:08:15 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

No Heron is going to carry an adult koi several miles and drop in anywhere.

Happened here. Got members of the club to prove it. Fish wasn't theirs,
that was dropped in their pond, 12-18" of dead koi.

Also Jan, the tub that fish was in was not netted because she was too large
for a heron or kingfisher.

Well just how large was she?

I also assume most ponds are not netted, and pox, not being fatal, is not an
uncommon infection. I have seen it on local pond tours and few of those
ponds were netted.

Right, but ornamental ponds are a tad less accessible then stock ponds in
the middle of fields.

Of course it is. But I can't stop a snake or snapper from getting through a
net and carrying off a fish and dropping it somewhere either.

Snakes & snappers don't do this, the eat on the spot.

There is no way anyone can guarantee any fish kept outside will not
be hauled off by some predator.

Stating obvious.... You never mentioned the size of the fish.

Before jumping on the bandwagon perhaps a few questions asked would be
helpful instead of immediately going for the throat... something that never
happened on this group before.

Now you're lashing out. I in no way went for your throat, if I did you
would be choking, heck I didn't even come close to any of your body parts.
My reply was civil, on topic and part of the discussion. It contained no
personal attack. Your combativeness just floors me. Proving once again
that one can't have a discussional disagreement with you without you seeing
it as a personal attack. s ~ jan

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

Zëbulon wrote:



Gill,... you are so full of it! This BS started with you when I refused
to go away and sneak back with a new persona so Roy Tristan Hauer and
Antonio L Santana, two obsessed trolls, would stop disrupting these
NGs.

The suggestion, which was not mine alone, was that you came back with a
less easily identified nym so that you would not be trolled the minute
that you posted......noone ever suggested a personality
transplant.....that would be ridiculous - the only suggestion was that
you changed nym and signature so that you would not be jumped on the
minute that you made a post.....


Until then you didn't twist everything I said. Now you've gone so
far as to claim there were other fish in a pond thousands of miles from
where you live and could not possibly have examined for other fish.

I haven't suggested this at all. However, a farm stock pond would
suggest to me that it is stocked with fish....and these creatures could
possibly be infected by the placing of a sick fish in with them....but
it is obvious that the pros and cons of dealing with an incurable fish
cannot be discussed here....so I'm not going to bother anymore.....For
the record it would not matter who posted that they had placed a sick
fish in a stock pond - my feelings would be the same.....


I
know your motive Gill, I just want others to know what it is as well.
You will do anything to get Roy to shut up and stop trolling here and
for Jabbers to leave.

My motive is to be able to post in peace on troll free groups - I would
hope that it is one that is shared by all other than those wishing to
troll the groups (and I would hope that these people in question also
would want this as well - but I can only dream....)

If that means you have to stoop to bearing my
throat for the kill you are willing to do it. If that means harassing
me off the group you're willing to do that as well.

You have just as much right to post on Usenet as anyone else.....if you
mean that by disagreeing with you from time to time I am harassing
you....then any debate with you is impossible without these accusations
being made from you (but then I've never known you do anything other
than accuse those with opposing views of being trolls or out to get you
- so I doubt that you will change now).....I have no desire to see you
leave the group - my only desire is and has always been to be able to
post and read the newsgroups in peace without having to read someone's
dirty laundry at the same time.....to be able to open up a newsgroup and
not have to filter through 10s of off-topic messages to read stuff of
interest (as I had to do on rec.aquaria.marine.reefs this morning)....

I repeat, I am not harassing you....but may disagree with you and
respond.....this is called discussion and debate.....


You have no
integrity and little honesty and I hope you decide not to be a
moderator. You're carrying too much baggage with you......... SHAME ON
YOU!

Insults......all because I take an opposing view to you on the morality
of dumping a sick and possible contagious fish in another pond - well if
my integrity dictates that this should not be done then I am happy that
my inegrity is not compromised.....

So for the record:-

1. If I disagree or feel that something needs further discussion I will
do so WHOEVER the poster is......I will not make an exception because
someone will accuse me of harassing them.....nor will I be intimidated
by anyone into not giving my point of view

2. I have no desire to see anyone stop post on these groups.....my only
desire is that this is done without trolling and insults....and that
posts are on-topic

3. When it comes to a moderated rec.ponds any moderation should be done
on content alone and not on the poster's identity - this leaves all of
you free to post there providing you follow the moderation policy

4. I think that the dragging of other unconnected groups into whatever
troll games are going on here is reprehensible WHOEVER does it.....

Now if anyone has a problem with the above....then let me know

Gill

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 23:08:15 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

No Heron is going to carry an adult koi several miles and drop in
anywhere.

Happened here. Got members of the club to prove it. Fish wasn't theirs,
that was dropped in their pond, 12-18" of dead koi.

Well it looks like we'll all have to net our ponds. BTW the herons here are
the small ones about the size of a banty rooster.

Also Jan, the tub that fish was in was not netted because she was too
large
for a heron or kingfisher.

Well just how large was she?

Her body was excluding the tail was 18" or more. She outweighed the little
green Herons by several pounds.

I also assume most ponds are not netted, and pox, not being fatal, is not
an
uncommon infection. I have seen it on local pond tours and few of those
ponds were netted.

Right, but ornamental ponds are a tad less accessible then stock ponds in
the middle of fields.

That don't apply here since herons will sit right on your roof or garage
until you go in - then they're right on your pond rim fishing. They take
fish from ponds in towns. You may be talking about a different heron.

Of course it is. But I can't stop a snake or snapper from getting through
a
net and carrying off a fish and dropping it somewhere either.

Snakes & snappers don't do this, the eat on the spot.

So do the herons we have here. A few gulps and the fish is gone. In ever saw
one pick up a fish larger then itself and carry it off.

There is no way anyone can guarantee any fish kept outside will not
be hauled off by some predator.

Stating obvious.... You never mentioned the size of the fish.

And *no one bothered to ask* before going for my throat. So let me repeat
this for posterity. Before this koi was turned out in the farm pond the
whole top of her dorsal fin was amputated to remove the waxy growth
beforehand. I had permission to put fish in this pond from the landowner who
liked the idea (misquito control). I knew he couldn't keep fish in this
pond due to predators and this pond is right near a dwelling. I knew this
fish stood no chance but allowed nature to take it course. When I went back
with some goldfish culls I didn't see her so can only assume some raccoon
had a good dinner.

Before jumping on the bandwagon perhaps a few questions asked would be
helpful instead of immediately going for the throat... something that
never
happened on this group before.

Now you're lashing out.

Why not jan? Everyone else seems to feel they can lash out at me and say
anything they want. They lash out and jump on everything I say. Everything
has to be explained down to the last minute detail. Why and *I* held to a
different standard? Why didn't you do this to the other poster to
recommended shooting and killing a protected bird, never mentioning it was
both illegal and immoral here in the USA? Why are there different standards
for different posters here?

I in no way went for your throat, if I did you
would be choking, heck I didn't even come close to any of your body parts.
My reply was civil, on topic and part of the discussion. It contained no
personal attack.

Then please ask for details before lecturing me on illegally "dumping
diseased" fish in waterways.

Your combativeness just floors me. Proving once again
that one can't have a discussional disagreement with you without you
seeing
it as a personal attack. s ~ jan

You're lecturing me on wildlife laws I'm well aware of without asking me for
more information *FLOORS* me - since you never did this to anyone else. Why
do it to me? This proves once again you hold me to a different standard
than you hold the other posters here - even when they recommend the illegal
killing of a protected species.

I don't want to hear it's legal to kill Herons in the UK because he didn't
tell the poster that - and YOU never said a word!!!! God help me if I
posted something like that.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
Zëbulon wrote:



Gill,... you are so full of it! This BS started with you when I refused
to go away and sneak back with a new persona so Roy Tristan Hauer and
Antonio L Santana, two obsessed trolls, would stop disrupting these NGs.

The suggestion, which was not mine alone, was that you came back with a
less easily identified nym so that you would not be trolled the minute
that you posted......noone ever suggested a personality
transplant.....that would be ridiculous - the only suggestion was that you
changed nym and signature so that you would not be jumped on the minute
that you made a post.....

Ok, Gill... the second minute I posted then. Let's NOT change history. You
knew very well when I changed my nym the first time the trolls flooded my
NSPs and ISP with complaints. When I was forced to change it the second
time they did the same thing. We discussed this over the phone and by
e-mail. I was not going to change it again and allow the harassment of my
NSPs and ISP to continue. This was all explained to you more than once.
And you know darn well they *would* know it's me the minute they read my 1st
or 2nd message. Meanwhile I could lose my service "as I also explained to
you more than once." Did you ever actually HEAR what I was saying? These
trolls have a "mission" as Jayne said. They're so desperate to "get me"
I've seen them accuse people using WebTV of being me! I'm glad Roy Tristan
Hauer called Bellsouth (see his message on reefs) and they assured him the
messages weren't from our business account. Now before I have to explain
myself in minute detail to you - no, I have no interest in your reef group.
I was sent the message he posted there regarding the Bellsouth call.

Until then you didn't twist everything I said. Now you've gone so far as
to claim there were other fish in a pond thousands of miles from where
you live and could not possibly have examined for other fish.

I haven't suggested this at all. However, a farm stock pond would suggest
to me that it is stocked with fish....

So you just ASSUMED. Any fish in those ponds are from my ponds, my culls.
Most have a short life because of predators, from herons to huge bullfrogs.

and these creatures could possibly be infected by the placing of a sick
fish in with them....

What makes you think I don't know these things?

but
it is obvious that the pros and cons of dealing with an incurable fish
cannot be discussed here....so I'm not going to bother anymore.....For the
record it would not matter who posted that they had placed a sick fish in
a stock pond - my feelings would be the same.....

As would mine. Odd how I mentioned these stock ponds before and not one of
you ever made a peep before.

I know your motive Gill, I just want others to know what it is as well.
You will do anything to get Roy to shut up and stop trolling here and for
Jabbers to leave.

My motive is to be able to post in peace on troll free groups - I would
hope that it is one that is shared by all other than those wishing to
troll the groups (and I would hope that these people in question also
would want this as well - but I can only dream....)

Well keep dreaming as I am. Unless there are good moderators who will not
show favoritism this group is doomed.

If that means you have to stoop to bearing my throat for the kill you
are willing to do it. If that means harassing me off the group you're
willing to do that as well.

You have just as much right to post on Usenet as anyone else.....if you
mean that by disagreeing with you from time to time I am harassing you..

You can disagree with me all you like - but don't ASSUME without asking
first. I shouldn't be expected to write a 10K post explaining everything in
minute detail as I just did to Jan regarding the stock ponds, the size of
the koi, the size of the herons etc. It's like the Inquisition for cripes
sake!!! :-D Don't hold me to a different standard than others.

...then any debate with you is impossible without these accusations
being made from you (but then I've never known you do anything other than
accuse those with opposing views of being trolls or out to get you - so I
doubt that you will change now).....I have no desire to see you leave the
group - my only desire is and has always been to be able to post and read
the newsgroups in peace without having to read someone's dirty laundry at
the same time.....to be able to open up a newsgroup and not have to filter
through 10s of off-topic messages to read stuff of interest (as I had to
do on rec.aquaria.marine.reefs this morning)....

Then muzzle the mad-dog. He's messages are beyond dirty laundry. They're
often disgusting and would turn any normal person off. I don't post smut
and obscenities here. Don't hold me responsible for his obsessions and bad
behavior. If he's going to troll, he's going to be trolled in return.

I repeat, I am not harassing you....but may disagree with you and
respond.....this is called discussion and debate.....

Ok..... See above. If someone can blatantly advise others to illegally
kill herons here in the USA and you say nothing to this person, not
bothering to "correct" him by telling him the laws here in the USA why do it
to me? Treat everyone alike or don't "correct" anyone. Isn't that fair?
God help me if I advised someone to shoot herons and he's done it more than
once.

You have no integrity and little honesty and I hope you decide not to be
a moderator. You're carrying too much baggage with you......... SHAME ON
YOU!

Insults......all because I take an opposing view to you on the morality of
dumping a sick and possible contagious fish in another pond -

ASSUMING WHAT THE SITUATION WAS!!! You never bothered to ask. Never mind
your fiend is telling people to illegally kill herons and you say
nothing!!!!!!!! It's ok to kill these protected birds but you're suddenly
so concerned this one koi may infect a few goldfish I added to this farm
pond in the past. Worry about our water birds being shot on the advice of
the other poster. How hypocritical can you get Gill? In the UK you never
heard what's good for the goose is good for the gander? Stop being a
hypocrite......

snip
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

Carol is not going to put any account they have to pay for in
jeopardy......thats why she uses free news servers they are like her
email accounts, expendable or disposable....Perhaps if she had to pay
to post through a news server she may chill out, but I doubt it, she
is just to ignorant to see what kind of fool she is in the eyes of
all others. Not a single person comes to her aide anymore as they have
either been stabbed in the back by her or they seen the light, its
all about carol....Folds are not as dumb as you seem to think they are
carol.......99.99% of them are thousands of times smarter than yu coul
dever dream of.


Hey Gill, yuour enabling Carol, she is getting her daily ego boost and
adrenaline rush....Thats all any of this is about, the high and
attention the attention whore craves......She wears out her welcome in
any place she frequents....She jumps in feet first, and things she is
queen, but soon no one pays her highness any atatention since it snot
hard to figure the oold bitch out, and she starts to get shunned and
ignored......Then she drops out and move to yet another
forum.....Check em all out, her track record for most any forum before
some banter ****es her off and she leaves or gets booted or just
looses interest, is about a month......

She would have been gone from here if folks did not pay her any
attention, and its only gonna get worse once themoderated group is
up, especially now that most of the folks that have tried to post here
only to get spit on by carol like the pewrson with the sick koi and
pics thread, knows ecatly where and who the problem is. Its been
seen that way inthe freshwater.misc andother aquaria groups and they
all know her in the reef group..Amazing how many posts she can make
and trash me and others yet no one has been taking her side, only now
telling her to go to hell and grow up.......She has yet to make one
little pity point out of all those hundreds of posts she claims one
minute and denies the next........

Carol who has to have 1000 watts of metal halide lights focused on her
to exist is now running with a 1.5 volt battery operated light at
about 50% power................and its steadlily getting dimmer.....

Just look at her contributions in any shape form or fashion........if
it was not for plagaraized stuff she would be at a loss except for
trashing type posts..........she has no morales or scruples and
certainly is not a loss in any forum looking for content. All the
world loves a fool , but not many give a shit about a dumbass named
CArol Gulley!



On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:17:05 -0600, Zëbulon

wrote:


"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
Zëbulon wrote:



Gill,... you are so full of it! This BS started with you when I refused
to go away and sneak back with a new persona so Roy Tristan Hauer and
Antonio L Santana, two obsessed trolls, would stop disrupting these NGs.

The suggestion, which was not mine alone, was that you came back with a
less easily identified nym so that you would not be trolled the minute
that you posted......noone ever suggested a personality
transplant.....that would be ridiculous - the only suggestion was that you
changed nym and signature so that you would not be jumped on the minute
that you made a post.....

Ok, Gill... the second minute I posted then. Let's NOT change history. You
knew very well when I changed my nym the first time the trolls flooded my
NSPs and ISP with complaints. When I was forced to change it the second
time they did the same thing. We discussed this over the phone and by
e-mail. I was not going to change it again and allow the harassment of my
NSPs and ISP to continue. This was all explained to you more than once.
And you know darn well they *would* know it's me the minute they read my 1st
or 2nd message. Meanwhile I could lose my service "as I also explained to
you more than once." Did you ever actually HEAR what I was saying? These
trolls have a "mission" as Jayne said. They're so desperate to "get me"
I've seen them accuse people using WebTV of being me! I'm glad Roy Tristan
Hauer called Bellsouth (see his message on reefs) and they assured him the
messages weren't from our business account. Now before I have to explain
myself in minute detail to you - no, I have no interest in your reef group.
I was sent the message he posted there regarding the Bellsouth call.

Until then you didn't twist everything I said. Now you've gone so far as
to claim there were other fish in a pond thousands of miles from where
you live and could not possibly have examined for other fish.

I haven't suggested this at all. However, a farm stock pond would suggest
to me that it is stocked with fish....

So you just ASSUMED. Any fish in those ponds are from my ponds, my culls.
Most have a short life because of predators, from herons to huge bullfrogs.

and these creatures could possibly be infected by the placing of a sick
fish in with them....

What makes you think I don't know these things?

but
it is obvious that the pros and cons of dealing with an incurable fish
cannot be discussed here....so I'm not going to bother anymore.....For the
record it would not matter who posted that they had placed a sick fish in
a stock pond - my feelings would be the same.....

As would mine. Odd how I mentioned these stock ponds before and not one of
you ever made a peep before.

I know your motive Gill, I just want others to know what it is as well.
You will do anything to get Roy to shut up and stop trolling here and for
Jabbers to leave.

My motive is to be able to post in peace on troll free groups - I would
hope that it is one that is shared by all other than those wishing to
troll the groups (and I would hope that these people in question also
would want this as well - but I can only dream....)

Well keep dreaming as I am. Unless there are good moderators who will not
show favoritism this group is doomed.

If that means you have to stoop to bearing my throat for the kill you
are willing to do it. If that means harassing me off the group you're
willing to do that as well.

You have just as much right to post on Usenet as anyone else.....if you
mean that by disagreeing with you from time to time I am harassing you..

You can disagree with me all you like - but don't ASSUME without asking
first. I shouldn't be expected to write a 10K post explaining everything in
minute detail as I just did to Jan regarding the stock ponds, the size of
the koi, the size of the herons etc. It's like the Inquisition for cripes
sake!!! :-D Don't hold me to a different standard than others.

..then any debate with you is impossible without these accusations
being made from you (but then I've never known you do anything other than
accuse those with opposing views of being trolls or out to get you - so I
doubt that you will change now).....I have no desire to see you leave the
group - my only desire is and has always been to be able to post and read
the newsgroups in peace without having to read someone's dirty laundry at
the same time.....to be able to open up a newsgroup and not have to filter
through 10s of off-topic messages to read stuff of interest (as I had to
do on rec.aquaria.marine.reefs this morning)....

Then muzzle the mad-dog. He's messages are beyond dirty laundry. They're
often disgusting and would turn any normal person off. I don't post smut
and obscenities here. Don't hold me responsible for his obsessions and bad
behavior. If he's going to troll, he's going to be trolled in return.

I repeat, I am not harassing you....but may disagree with you and
respond.....this is called discussion and debate.....

Ok..... See above. If someone can blatantly advise others to illegally
kill herons here in the USA and you say nothing to this person, not
bothering to "correct" him by telling him the laws here in the USA why do it
to me? Treat everyone alike or don't "correct" anyone. Isn't that fair?
God help me if I advised someone to shoot herons and he's done it more than
once.

You have no integrity and little honesty and I hope you decide not to be
a moderator. You're carrying too much baggage with you......... SHAME ON
YOU!

Insults......all because I take an opposing view to you on the morality of
dumping a sick and possible contagious fish in another pond -

ASSUMING WHAT THE SITUATION WAS!!! You never bothered to ask. Never mind
your fiend is telling people to illegally kill herons and you say
nothing!!!!!!!! It's ok to kill these protected birds but you're suddenly
so concerned this one koi may infect a few goldfish I added to this farm
pond in the past. Worry about our water birds being shot on the advice of
the other poster. How hypocritical can you get Gill? In the UK you never
heard what's good for the goose is good for the gander? Stop being a
hypocrite......

snip



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

OK....I'm getting more than a little fed up with all this right now (and
that is not targetted at anyone in particular). These discussions are
detracting from the OPs problem and this is not fair on
him/her....Therefore I have created two new threads.....

Under certain circumstances it is OK to release sick fish into stock ponds

Under certain circumstances it is OK to shoot at herons

All discussion of either subject should be made under the appropriate
thread, if indeed there is anything further to discuss about either.....

There should be no discussion of either topic under this thread.....and
I hope that scs0 has got the advice that he needed somewhere within his
thread and that his koi is making good progress....

Gill

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
OK....I'm getting more than a little fed up with all this right now (and
that is not targetted at anyone in particular). These discussions are
detracting from the OPs problem and this is not fair on
him/her....Therefore I have created two new threads.....

All new threads turn into personal attacks on me.

Under certain circumstances it is OK to release sick fish into stock ponds

Define "sick." Read my reply to Jan.

Under certain circumstances it is OK to shoot at herons

If you have a permit and that should be stressed to the person being told to
kill protected species. Other methods of control should be tried first. I
seriously doubt you'd get a permit for an ornamental pond. Our wildlife is
precious and in many cases threatened. Koi are not a threatened species.

All discussion of either subject should be made under the appropriate
thread, if indeed there is anything further to discuss about either.....

When a thread is used as a soap box to attacks others there is nothing left
to discuss. Others will not join in in fear they will come under fire.

There should be no discussion of either topic under this thread.....and I
hope that scs0 has got the advice that he needed somewhere within his
thread and that his koi is making good progress....

Gill

He or she will probably never come back.........

--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:06:03 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

BTW the herons here are
the small ones about the size of a banty rooster.

Instead of being defensive, you could have mentioned this and the size of
the fish.

A Great Blue Heron, could fly away with an 18-24" fish, it has happened
here. So they don't have those in your area of Tennessee? My bird book says
they are throughout the USA (and beyond). You're lucky.

Why not jan? Everyone else seems to feel they can lash out at me and say
anything they want.

Then you're no different then when Roy was attacking everyone. I wasn't
attacking you, I wasn't even personally addressing you at the time. I was
just mentioning what I know. You took it personal and then lashed out at
me. So why not you ask? Because it is wrong and hypocritical.

They lash out and jump on everything I say. Everything
has to be explained down to the last minute detail.

If you don't want to be misunderstood. When I say heron, and I bet 90% of
the people here do also, I think of the Great Blue.

Why and *I* held to a different standard? Why didn't you do this to the other poster to
recommended shooting and killing a protected bird, never mentioning it was
both illegal and immoral here in the USA?

Stick to the present and not some long past post. I didn't see this posted
recently here on RP, and if someone else covered it, I didn't see anything
to add. Last time I saw someone post that information was long, long ago. I
don't pull up old posts that have since lost their importance or
timeliness.

Then please ask for details before lecturing me on illegally "dumping
diseased" fish in waterways.

I didn't, see paragraph 3. I can't help it if you see everything I type as
lecturing YOU. That is YOUR problem not mine.

You're lecturing me on wildlife laws

You're getting your posters mixed up. I didn't even mention wildlife laws.

I'm well aware of without asking me for
more information *FLOORS* me - since you never did this to anyone else. Why
do it to me?

When I have replied to something that is a misunderstanding due to what
that poster typed, they come back and civilly fix it. They rarely took it
as a personal attacked. Why are you different you ask? That's why.

I don't want to hear it's legal to kill Herons in the UK because he didn't
tell the poster that - and YOU never said a word!!!! God help me if I
posted something like that.

I rarely EVER post on what makes heron an edible meat. It is not a hot
button for me, others cover that topic quite well. I never have and
probably never will. So my not saying a word wasn't a new MO for me. ~ jan

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:07:12 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:


"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
OK....I'm getting more than a little fed up with all this right now (and
that is not targetted at anyone in particular). These discussions are
detracting from the OPs problem and this is not fair on
him/her....Therefore I have created two new threads.....

All new threads turn into personal attacks on me.

I wonder what yur definition of "attack" is carol. Any dissagreement
with you is considered a person attack by you. Your a loon!

Under certain circumstances it is OK to release sick fish into stock ponds

Define "sick." Read my reply to Jan.
Its easier to see a picture of sick.look in a mirrow carol thats what
sick is!

Under certain circumstances it is OK to shoot at herons

To all but by your standards.


If you have a permit and that should be stressed to the person being told to
kill protected species. Other methods of control should be tried first. I
seriously doubt you'd get a permit for an ornamental pond. Our wildlife is
precious and in many cases threatened. Koi are not a threatened species.

I assume yopur listed as an endangered species CArol, your one of a
kind, thats for sure.....just you and sasquatch.........quite a pair.

All discussion of either subject should be made under the appropriate
thread, if indeed there is anything further to discuss about either.....

When a thread is used as a soap box to attacks others there is nothing left
to discuss. Others will not join in in fear they will come under fire.

Thats CArols entire ploy, get on a soap box and start a fire.

There should be no discussion of either topic under this thread.....and I
hope that scs0 has got the advice that he needed somewhere within his
thread and that his koi is making good progress....

Gill

He or she will probably never come back.........

Oh they have more than oane way to skin a cat, I have answwered three
emails from this person today....how many emails do you get form folks
looking for advice or help carol.none is my bet,. Thats why you keep a
barn full of socks so you can converse with something or
other.......your an introvert!



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:46:46 -0600, Tristan wrote:

its only gonna get worse once the moderated group is
up, especially now that most of the folks that have tried to post here
only to get spit on

I don't think so. Because everyone will have to be civil, including Carol.
If a poster disagrees civilly and she takes it as a personal attack and
comes back all accusatory, I'll put it in the reject bin for someone else
to double check. ~ jan

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

Tristan wrote:
your an introvert!


In the best interests of the English language and with no offence meant
to anyone - this is an oxymoron.....(if you don't know what it means do
a google) :-)

Gill

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:06:03 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

BTW the herons here are
the small ones about the size of a banty rooster.

Instead of being defensive, you could have mentioned this and the size of
the fish.

Why wasn't I asked before all the lectures and all the ASSUMING? Why do I
have to post 10K posts covering every little bitty thing when no one else is
expected to? What would make you think I would take "diseased fish" and
illegally dump them in some waterway or lake? Then when accused you don't
understand why I get a bit defensive. Why suddenly am I under suspicion with
every post, every subject when it wasn't this way before? When I had those
problems years ago with "contagious ulcers" the fish were disposed of by
burial where nothing could get to them to spread the disease. What couldn't
be sterilized was burnt in the burn bin. Not one of you questioned me at the
time about the disposal method I used.

A Great Blue Heron, could fly away with an 18-24" fish, it has happened
here. So they don't have those in your area of Tennessee? My bird book
says
they are throughout the USA (and beyond). You're lucky.

Sure they may be here, but so are bobcats and I don't see them either. I've
seen cranes down by the lake. No huge herons. Where does that leave
ponders then? Are we to net every pond to keep these huge birds from
carrying away our fish? You're not going to find many ponds where the fish
are 100% parasite free. It's suspected were I live that some diseases are
carried by frogs, snakes, water birds etc. How do you think sunfish get
into my ponds?

Why not jan? Everyone else seems to feel they can lash out at me and say
anything they want.

Then you're no different then when Roy was attacking everyone.

Really? Who have I called the things he has called people for no reason at
all Jan? Have I called you a whore, a carpet-bagger, a gangster and some of
the things he's called people just for posting here?

I wasn't
attacking you, I wasn't even personally addressing you at the time. I was
just mentioning what I know. You took it personal and then lashed out at
me. So why not you ask? Because it is wrong and hypocritical.

So if you get annoyed you are free to show your annoyance but I am not? I'm
held to a different standard for some reason these days.


They lash out and jump on everything I say. Everything
has to be explained down to the last minute detail.

If you don't want to be misunderstood. When I say heron, and I bet 90% of
the people here do also, I think of the Great Blue.

And here in TN 90% of the people would probably think of the smaller herons
which are the bane of pond owners.

Why and *I* held to a different standard? Why didn't you do this to the
other poster to
recommended shooting and killing a protected bird, never mentioning it was
both illegal and immoral here in the USA?

Stick to the present and not some long past post.

The kill heron post was from a few days ago as way my sick fish post. What
makes mine recent and that one long past when they're from the same week?

I didn't see this posted
recently here on RP, and if someone else covered it, I didn't see anything
to add. Last time I saw someone post that information was long, long ago.
I
don't pull up old posts that have since lost their importance or
timeliness.

It was recent. I said the same suggestion to shoot and kill herons was made
in the past also.

Then please ask for details before lecturing me on illegally "dumping
diseased" fish in waterways.

I didn't, see paragraph 3. I can't help it if you see everything I type as
lecturing YOU. That is YOUR problem not mine.

What would you call lecturing? What do you want me to call it to please
you? Why say anything at all or ask for details which you did not do.

You're lecturing me on wildlife laws

You're getting your posters mixed up. I didn't even mention wildlife laws.

I'm well aware of without asking me for
more information *FLOORS* me - since you never did this to anyone else.
Why
do it to me?

When I have replied to something that is a misunderstanding due to what
that poster typed, they come back and civilly fix it. They rarely took it
as a personal attacked. Why are you different you ask? That's why.

I see. OK, next time ASK for a detailed explanation if you feel you need
one. I ASSUMED you had the smarts to know I knew the laws and would not
contaminate a local waterway (no rivers near me) or lake with "diseased
fish."

I don't want to hear it's legal to kill Herons in the UK because he didn't
tell the poster that - and YOU never said a word!!!! God help me if I
posted something like that.

I rarely EVER post on what makes heron an edible meat. It is not a hot
button for me, others cover that topic quite well. I never have and
probably never will. So my not saying a word wasn't a new MO for me. ~
jan

Then please don't "say a word" to me next time when it comes to the farm
ponds ok? :-) Because illegally killing birds is a more serious issue to
me than releasing a fish into a farm pond to let nature take it's course,
which it did, rather than killing her myself.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

DUH, what can I say, I just washed my mouth out with soap for saying
that to her queen bee........I knew I should have studied harder in
class..........


On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:38:28 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

Tristan wrote:
your an introvert!


In the best interests of the English language and with no offence meant
to anyone - this is an oxymoron.....(if you don't know what it means do
a google) :-)

Gill



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:03:56 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

What would make you think I would take "diseased fish" and
illegally dump them in some waterway or lake?

You're right, when I read it, the topic had gotten turned to diseased fish
and putting them in a stock pond. My post in NO WAY was about YOU doing
anything ILLEGAL.

As far as you writing a 10K post to explain something, you have no problem
typing 10K posts to defend yourself.

snip history lesson and old post info

Sure they may be here, but so are bobcats and I don't see them either.

Huh? So one could slide up to that stock pond? So what were you going on
about? They're either there or not. You contradict yourself.

Why not jan? Everyone else seems to feel they can lash out at me and say
anything they want.

Then you're no different then when Roy was attacking everyone.

Really? Who have I called the things he has called people for no reason at
all Jan?

One doesn't have to call people names, lashing out and accusing, is the
same thing in my book. It will get a post rejected just as fast as calling
names in my book.

So if you get annoyed you are free to show your annoyance but I am not?

Hello? I wasn't then or now annoyed. YOU read that in there, and I don't
know how.

The kill heron post was from a few days ago as way my sick fish post. What
makes mine recent and that one long past when they're from the same week?

Sorry don't remember it. But like I said, it isn't my MO to address those.

I see. OK, next time ASK for a detailed explanation if you feel you need
one.

No, if I misunderstand, you can civilly correct me without jumping all over
my case that I'm attacking you.

I ASSUMED you had the smarts

That comment would get a reject. Because it is basically saying I must be
dumb.

to know I knew the laws and would not
contaminate a local waterway (no rivers near me) or lake with "diseased
fish."

For the umpteenth time I bring up anything about LAWS.

Then please don't "say a word" to me next time when it comes to the farm
ponds ok? :-)

Fine. I'll make it far more generic and see how that goes.

Because illegally killing birds is a more serious issue to
me than releasing a fish into a farm pond to let nature take it's course,
which it did, rather than killing her myself.

Fine, you fight that battle and don't say a word to me about not going
there. ~ jan

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:03:56 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

What would make you think I would take "diseased fish" and
illegally dump them in some waterway or lake?

You're right, when I read it, the topic had gotten turned to diseased fish
and putting them in a stock pond. My post in NO WAY was about YOU doing
anything ILLEGAL.

THANK YOU! I also have permission from the owner of that pond to release my
culls there.

As far as you writing a 10K post to explain something, you have no problem
typing 10K posts to defend yourself.

snip history lesson and old post info

Sure they may be here, but so are bobcats and I don't see them either.

Huh? So one could slide up to that stock pond?

A contradiction? Nowhere did I clam they definitely 100% do not exist here.
If they do - I never saw one. How is that a contradiction? Everything I
say you question me like it's some kind of Inquisition. A kid could have
stolen it from my stock tank and released it in the lake. A dog could have
carried it the mile to the lake. What are you trying to get at Jan?

So what were you going on
about? They're either there or not. You contradict yourself.

How? I've never seen one. Can you guarantee there is or isn't one where you
live. I made no guarantee nor do I guarantee some kid wouldn't steal a fish
and take it to the lake. If your ponds are not netted you are endangering
nature yet don't seem too concerned. No pond is 100% free of all parasites
and disease. What are you doing to protect nature?


Why not jan? Everyone else seems to feel they can lash out at me and
say
anything they want.

Then you're no different then when Roy was attacking everyone.

Really? Who have I called the things he has called people for no reason
at
all Jan?

One doesn't have to call people names, lashing out and accusing, is the
same thing in my book. It will get a post rejected just as fast as calling
names in my book.

Accusing you of what? What did I accuse you of- assuming before asking me
for more info on the stock pond? WELL??? Is this your build up to an excuse
to reject any and all posts I make? Because it sure sounds like it. If you
were so very concerned about nature you would have your ponds netted and
convince everyone you know to net your ponds.

So if you get annoyed you are free to show your annoyance but I am not?

Hello? I wasn't then or now annoyed. YOU read that in there, and I don't
know how.

I see. Although you sound that way you really are typing with a sweet smile
on your face that I can't see.

The kill heron post was from a few days ago as way my sick fish post.
What
makes mine recent and that one long past when they're from the same week?

Sorry don't remember it. But like I said, it isn't my MO to address those.

I see. OK, next time ASK for a detailed explanation if you feel you need
one.

No, if I misunderstand, you can civilly correct me without jumping all
over
my case that I'm attacking you.

OK. We'll see if that helps in the future.

I ASSUMED you had the smarts

That comment would get a reject. Because it is basically saying I must be
dumb.

And your messages as much as accused me of infecting a natural waterway or
lake with diseased fish so you would have to reject your own messages!!!!!
:-O Wow,... this is going be some group or will the moderators be able to
assume and accuse without anyone moderating them? Who will be moderating
you?

to know I knew the laws and would not
contaminate a local waterway (no rivers near me) or lake with "diseased
fish."

For the umpteenth time I bring up anything about LAWS.

I would INDEED be breaking the law to knowingly dump diseased fish as
stated thereby endangering nature.

Then please don't "say a word" to me next time when it comes to the farm
ponds ok? :-)

Fine. I'll make it far more generic and see how that goes.

That should work. :-)

Because illegally killing birds is a more serious issue to
me than releasing a fish into a farm pond to let nature take it's course,
which it did, rather than killing her myself.

Fine, you fight that battle and don't say a word to me about not going
there. ~ jan

And that means......... ???
--
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:46:46 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

its only gonna get worse once the moderated group is
up, especially now that most of the folks that have tried to post here
only to get spit on

I don't think so. Because everyone will have to be civil, including Carol.

And everyone will also expect the moderators to be civil.

If a poster disagrees civilly

Anyone can disagree civilly and they have. No offense was taken. When some
disagrees and tries to make the other person look like a fool - people will
take offense.

and she takes it as a personal attack and
comes back all accusatory, I'll put it in the reject bin for someone else
to double check. ~ jan

Since you have such a negative attitude where I'm concerned Jan, I would
rather you don't even look at anything I post on a m.r.p. Let someone else
handle my messages.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:57:00 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

THANK YOU! I also have permission from the owner of that pond to release my
culls there.

Unless you can net it, better not... according to what you say below that I
should do.

A contradiction? Nowhere did I clam they definitely 100% do not exist here.

You implied you only had green herons, too small to carry off large koi.

I've never seen one. Can you guarantee there is or isn't one where you
live.

Huh? Yeah, I've seen them, plenty of times.

If your ponds are not netted you are endangering
nature yet don't seem too concerned.

You have NO IDEA what I've been doing or not doing in the last 2 years. And
you put culls and pox-infected fish in stock ponds..... and plan to do so
still.

What did I accuse you of- assuming before asking me
for more info on the stock pond? WELL???

Hello? Lately you've been accusing me of lecturing and attacking, and
expecting more out of you than others.

were so very concerned about nature you would have your ponds netted and
convince everyone you know to net your ponds.

While you put culls in stock ponds? Hypocritical that.

And your messages as much as accused me of infecting a natural waterway or
lake with diseased fish so you would have to reject your own messages!!!!!

I just pointed out what "could" happen. I didn't accuse you of anything.

:-O Wow,... this is going be some group or will the moderators be able to
assume and accuse without anyone moderating them? Who will be moderating
you?

The other moderators.... one of which is Derek. Our message won't get a
free ride. ~ jan

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:04:42 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

Since you have such a negative attitude where I'm concerned Jan, I would
rather you don't even look at anything I post on a m.r.p. Let someone else
handle my messages.

Works for me, don't complain if your messages take longer to post than
others. The initials, btw, are RPM. ~ jan

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:57:00 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

THANK YOU! I also have permission from the owner of that pond to release
my
culls there.

Unless you can net it, better not... according to what you say below that
I
should do.

So you think it's OK to release "diseased" fish in farm ponds? I got the
impression from your past messages that I shouldn't do that because there
may be a huge heron to come by and take a fish and drop it in a river or
lake. I misunderstood. So really said it was ok to release them in a farm
pond. It's a bit confusing now if you said it's ok or not ok. If you feel
it's not OK then indeed you should net your own ponds so as not to be a
hypocrite. You never know when a huge heron will snatch up one of your fish
carrying a parasite or incubating a disease and infect a waterway in your
area. I'm sure you agree. :-)

As for netting. If you were as concerned about huge birds carrying fish and
dropping them in natural waterways you would already have netted your ponds.
Let me know when you net yours and I'll speak to the owners of the stock
ponds about netting theirs. ;-)

A contradiction? Nowhere did I clam they definitely 100% do not exist
here.

You implied you only had green herons, too small to carry off large koi.

All I've seen for the past 25 years are the small herons.

I've never seen one. Can you guarantee there is or isn't one where you
live.

Huh? Yeah, I've seen them, plenty of times.

OK, I haven't. All we see here are the small herons and cranes which stay
around the lake. They're not known to bother ornamental ponds here.

If your ponds are not netted you are endangering
nature yet don't seem too concerned.

You have NO IDEA what I've been doing or not doing in the last 2 years.
And
you put culls and pox-infected fish in stock ponds..... and plan to do so
still.

You have no idea what I do either so why ACCUSE me of doing anything? For
all I know herons can be carrying your DISEASED fish and dropping them all
over the place, in all the ponds, rivers and lakes in your area. Since you
have no nets there's nothing to stop them. How do you know what I plan to
do in the future? Are you now claiming you can read crystal balls or tea
leaves? :-O Are you going to send me pox infested fish Jan? I know
this will disappoint you but I don't have anymore with pox. Can you handle
that? So were do you think I'll get them from? The culls yes. Why does
that bother you so much? Why does it get your goat that the farmers allow
this for mosquito control?


What did I accuse you of- assuming before asking me
for more info on the stock pond? WELL???


Hello? Lately you've been accusing me of lecturing and attacking, and
expecting more out of you than others.

WELL haven't you? Since when did you treat other posters like this? You
never even said a word about these stock ponds and my culls and I mention
them every year at least. Suddenly *NOW*... you have so much to say about
the subject. Why is that?

were so very concerned about nature you would have your ponds netted and
convince everyone you know to net your ponds.

While you put culls in stock ponds? Hypocritical that.

Well than you're not at all concerned about Nature are you? You're going on
and on about putting culls in a farm pond while at the same time you let the
herons carry off your fish and drop them in the rivers and lakes all over
the place. What's the difference? You have no nets and the farmer's have no
nets = same thing! :-)))

And your messages as much as accused me of infecting a natural waterway
or
lake with diseased fish so you would have to reject your own messages!!!!!

I just pointed out what "could" happen. I didn't accuse you of anything.

And I'm pointing out that it could happen in your own pond, but instead of
looking at your own ponds where fish can be carried away, you look at the
farmer's pond and go on and on about it, knowing full well no pond is 100%
disease and parasite free. Yet you're not concerned about herons carrying
your fish and dropping them everywhere.... why is that? Your fish are no
healthier than anyone else's nor are they 100% disease and parasite free.


:-O Wow,... this is going be some group or will the moderators be able to
assume and accuse without anyone moderating them? Who will be moderating
you?


The other moderators.... one of which is Derek. Our message won't get a
free ride. ~ jan

Good, because I can see where you're trying to go with this.

This one takes the cake though - Pot (jan) calling kettles (farmers) black.
It's ok for the herons to drop your fish everywhere but not culls from a
farmer's pond........
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:04:42 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

Since you have such a negative attitude where I'm concerned Jan, I would
rather you don't even look at anything I post on a m.r.p. Let someone
else
handle my messages.

Works for me, don't complain if your messages take longer to post than
others. The initials, btw, are RPM. ~ jan
=================================
I'd rather they take an hour longer and be fairly judged by someone who is
neutral than by you with all your resentments and bitterness. If you think
you're hiding how you feel, you're badly mistaken.

And Jan, until you completely protect your ponds with nets to keep out all
predators and anything that can carry one of your diseased fish, and no fish
is 100% clean, and drop them in natural waterways you have no right to talk
about someone else including myself or the farmers who own these man made
stock-ponds.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

Roy "Tristan" Hauer NET-STALKER SUGGESTS MURDER of cripples and old ladies
spewed more vomit in message
...
Some just need to be knocked in the head and tell God they died........

You gonna knock her in the head hero? Gonna use a crowbar or a brick? You
need to get back on your meds. Get
back to the VA where you belong before you kill yourself of someone else
when you finally flip your cookies.


Its quite evident a raw nerve was struck on CArol Gulley once again as
the truths of this person comes to light. When this happens you always
get a full melt down, in her quest to try and cover up and detract
anything that was in direct truth with her and her ways.....Get over
it carol we all lknow who is behind this mess. You can point your
finger all you want, we jusyt look at the arm its attacked to and then
look up and its your mugg, no matter what name is used.....

Your a real pathetic individual carol........not one other group
thinks for a minute allthose psts from Bellsouth is from me. They know
its you or at least you are responsible for it.......your loosing it
Carol.....Please turn on that camera so we can witness this real time
meltdown........and your welcome to webcam your nudie shots to
your favorite vermin and rodent extermination groups with it after
we get to see your meltdown......

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
Zëbulon wrote:

"scs0" wrote in message
ups.com...


Any ideas on what's going on? If so, what do I do about it?

===================================
Check this site:

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...phocystis.html

I had a beautiful deep yellow female diamond-scale butterfly koi with
this disease. It looked exactly like what your fish has. She would
appear cured at times but it always came back. She went to a farm stock
pond rather than keep her with the other fish and possibly infect them.

This is what you said....this is suggesting someone go dump a fish
somewhere else....by disagreeing with this I am not trolling you or
carrying out anything you have going on in your head....I am saying that
this is irresponsible and bad advice....You sent her to a pond where she
would/could infect other fish....but not yours......you should have
taken the responsible action of euthanising this fish not releasing it
elsewhere to infect others.....

You just don't get it do you....

Gill

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

lymphocystis ... http://www.glfc.org/tumor/f12.gif
I have one with it, none of my others got it since 1999, so isnt too contagious. I
have seen carp in the Hudson river with huge carp pox around the mouth, very healthy
otherwise. Ingrid

~ jan wrote:
Great shots! Pictures worth a 1000 words as they say. I'm thinking
Lymphocystis... more commonly called Carp Pox or it could be columaris....

They can be contagious, but not easily. Usually, if Carp Pox they get
better or go away when the season changes and the water warms up, only to
come back in the fall. Do a search on those things and then decide your
course of treatment. ~ jan


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:33:50 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

THANK YOU! I also have permission from the owner of that pond to release
my culls there.

Unless you can net it, better not... according to what you say below that
I should do.

So you think it's OK to release "diseased" fish in farm ponds?

Since when is a "cull" a diseased fish? Carol, stay within the message of
the thread you're posting to. Us simple minded folk get quite confused
otherwise.

Let me know when you net yours and I'll speak to the owners of the stock
ponds about netting theirs. ;-)

Riiiiight.

OK, I haven't. All we see here are the small herons and cranes which stay
around the lake. They're not known to bother ornamental ponds here.

Then why say "in a previous thread" GBHeron are "around"?

You have no idea what I do either so why ACCUSE me of doing anything?

Cause you tell us every day? I can find you in half a dozen forums. You
won't see me telling my life story everywhere.

Heck, right now you're having a jolly time beating the horse, cheap chow
topic, to death in NGP.

For all I know herons can be carrying your DISEASED fish and dropping them all
over the place, in all the ponds, rivers and lakes in your area.

If I had diseased fish, they'd be pulled out to QT or put down before a
heron could sail in.... but truth be told, my ponds must be pretty
inaccessible to them, because I've had GB herons in my yard and on my roof
and not had a koi taken (yet). Doing the winter the ponds are screened.

How do you know what I plan to do in the future?

I don't need crystal balls or tea leaves when I have the internet. Just
read what you type here, there and everywhere, it isn't hard to figure out.

Are you going to send me pox infested fish Jan? I know
this will disappoint you but I don't have anymore with pox. Can you handle
that? So were do you think I'll get them from? The culls yes. Why does
that bother you so much? Why does it get your goat that the farmers allow
this for mosquito control?

The above is all lashing out again, a total joke.

WELL haven't you?

Nope, just been discussing the topic.

Since when did you treat other posters like this?

I think I've treated you as fairly as any other posters who posts & replies
like you.

You never even said a word about these stock ponds and my culls and I mention
them every year at least. Suddenly *NOW*... you have so much to say about
the subject. Why is that?

I only speak up when there is no one else who mentioned it. And basically
there are few of us left.

Well than you're not at all concerned about Nature are you?

Lashing out, hypocritical accusation.

You're going on
and on about putting culls in a farm pond while at the same time you let the
herons carry off your fish and drop them in the rivers and lakes all over
the place. What's the difference? You have no nets and the farmer's have no
nets = same thing! :-)))

Covered that. :-))))))

And I'm pointing out that it could happen in your own pond, but instead of
looking at your own ponds where fish can be carried away, you look at the
farmer's pond and go on and on about it, knowing full well no pond is 100%
disease and parasite free.

The only person going on and on is you.

This one takes the cake though - Pot (jan) calling kettles (farmers) black.
It's ok for the herons to drop your fish everywhere but not culls from a
farmer's pond........

Your argument is so full of holes it is ridi.... ah furgetaboutit! ~ jan

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

wrote in message
...
lymphocystis ... http://www.glfc.org/tumor/f12.gif
I have one with it, none of my others got it since 1999, so isnt too
contagious. I
have seen carp in the Hudson river with huge carp pox around the mouth,
very healthy
otherwise. Ingrid
================
My koi had it for years. None of the other fish caught it. The lesion was
removed along with 1/4" of healthy fin tissue before she went to the man
made stock pond. The other reason was all that catfish and trout chow had
her so healthy she laid thousands of eggs into mid-summer. This created
hundreds of unwanted fry overcrowding whatever pond or tank she was in.
They'd have to be drained down and the fry removed. A real PIA. I decided
with her excessive spawning and the pox.... she had to go.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:33:50 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

THANK YOU! I also have permission from the owner of that pond to
release
my culls there.

Unless you can net it, better not... according to what you say below
that
I should do.

So you think it's OK to release "diseased" fish in farm ponds?

Since when is a "cull" a diseased fish? Carol, stay within the message of
the thread you're posting to. Us simple minded folk get quite confused
otherwise.

As do I.


Let me know when you net yours and I'll speak to the owners of the stock
ponds about netting theirs. ;-)

Riiiiight.

OK, I haven't. All we see here are the small herons and cranes which stay
around the lake. They're not known to bother ornamental ponds here.

Then why say "in a previous thread" GBHeron are "around"?

No YOU said they're all over the USA. I said if we have them here I've never
seen one.


You have no idea what I do either so why ACCUSE me of doing anything?

Cause you tell us every day? I can find you in half a dozen forums. You
won't see me telling my life story everywhere.

My life story? I have nothing to be ashamed of - do you?

Heck, right now you're having a jolly time beating the horse, cheap chow
topic, to death in NGP.

And you're having a jolly time beating the "diseased fish" topic to death
here. What's the difference? Pot calling kettle black Jan? Why can't I do
what you do?

snip... it's all be covered several times already. :-)
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

ah, yea right!
Stlil trying like hell to justify your immoral and illegal act CArol?
Give it up, we all know you for what you truely are!


On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:58:48 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:


wrote in message
...
lymphocystis ... http://www.glfc.org/tumor/f12.gif
I have one with it, none of my others got it since 1999, so isnt too
contagious. I
have seen carp in the Hudson river with huge carp pox around the mouth,
very healthy
otherwise. Ingrid
================
My koi had it for years. None of the other fish caught it. The lesion was
removed along with 1/4" of healthy fin tissue before she went to the man
made stock pond. The other reason was all that catfish and trout chow had
her so healthy she laid thousands of eggs into mid-summer. This created
hundreds of unwanted fry overcrowding whatever pond or tank she was in.
They'd have to be drained down and the fry removed. A real PIA. I decided
with her excessive spawning and the pox.... she had to go.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:04:35 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

snip

Why can't I do
what you do?

snip...

Not hard to figure that out,. You lack morales and scruples and even
the slighrest bit of integrity and honor

Hope that answers your question CArol, as I do think this has been
covered quite a few times previously..


-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

"Tristan" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:04:35 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

snip

Why can't I do
what you do?

snip...

Not hard to figure that out,. You lack morales and scruples and even
the slighrest bit of integrity and honor
=======================
Of course. All cult members make that claim about deprogrammers and those of
us with the gonads to expose these cults. Worse yet I free as many as I can
and will even take them in if necessary. So I've heard it all before from
cult-members. Your accusations and slander is nothing new.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

I isolated that koi from the others and then took it to the vet. Oh
what fun it is to transport a large fish to the vet. Anyway, they
took some samples of the fish's spots and had them analyzed. At the
office the vet was able to determine that there was a fungal infection
going on, but he sent the sample of the mass away to the University of
Florida to analysis. They reported that the fish had malignant
carcinoma and that there was nothing that could be done. This was
good news because the alternative was either carp pox or another viral
infection and both of those were contageous and uncurable. Cancer is
not. The fungal infection was probably the result of the fish having
a compromised immune system.

I found out all that information the day after the fish died. I had
it isolated in about 20 gallons of water until I found out what to do
next and was treating it for the fungal infection that I knew it
already had. The water was unfiltered so I would replace half the
water every day and had an aerator bubbling in the water 24/7 and
during the daylight hours a second solar air bubbler kicked in. He
was even eating, but one day I went out to do the daily ritual and as
soon as I took the lid off the container it started to rain. I left
and forgot to put the lid back on which meant the airbubbler wasn't
bubbling in the water. 2 and a half hours later, yes only two and a
half hours later I went out and the fish was dead. I'd like to blame
that on the disease, but that's just the stupid tender nature of koi.
And part of that time a light rain would have been splashing on the
surface! Oh well, it probably woudn't have lived much longer anyway.

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

scs0 wrote:
I isolated that koi from the others and then took it to the vet. Oh
what fun it is to transport a large fish to the vet. Anyway, they
took some samples of the fish's spots and had them analyzed. At the
office the vet was able to determine that there was a fungal infection
going on, but he sent the sample of the mass away to the University of
Florida to analysis. They reported that the fish had malignant
carcinoma and that there was nothing that could be done. This was
good news because the alternative was either carp pox or another viral
infection and both of those were contageous and uncurable. Cancer is
not. The fungal infection was probably the result of the fish having
a compromised immune system.

There was absolutely nothing that you could have done....you have acted
as a responsible fish owner and that is all kudos to you - it is just
very sad that it was untreatable and nothing could be done....but these
things happen from time to time...



I found out all that information the day after the fish died. I had
it isolated in about 20 gallons of water until I found out what to do
next and was treating it for the fungal infection that I knew it
already had. The water was unfiltered so I would replace half the
water every day and had an aerator bubbling in the water 24/7 and
during the daylight hours a second solar air bubbler kicked in. He
was even eating, but one day I went out to do the daily ritual and as
soon as I took the lid off the container it started to rain. I left
and forgot to put the lid back on which meant the airbubbler wasn't
bubbling in the water. 2 and a half hours later, yes only two and a
half hours later I went out and the fish was dead. I'd like to blame
that on the disease, but that's just the stupid tender nature of koi.
And part of that time a light rain would have been splashing on the
surface! Oh well, it probably woudn't have lived much longer anyway.


NO, nothing you did accelerated the demise of the fish in question -
when in doubt you really have to isolate the fish or euthanise.....you
gave it the best chance possible based on what you knew.....and by doing
nothing you could have compromised the health of your other fish.....You
made the right decision and all KUDOS to you for doing it.....

Sorry to hear of your loss :-( but there was nothing you could have
done......

Gill

Sick koi and need advice (with pics)
 

Sorry to hear about losing your koi. After dealing with a few problems
myself a few years back I found that 1) see a problem jump on it quick. 2)
If the problem appears to have gotten to the point where it won't be heal
by fall, put the fish down. Harsh, but saves a lot of worry and stress, and
I didn't put these ponds in to be constantly stressed out over them.

Actually, before #1, practice prevention. Water quality and low stocking
levels. ~ jan

On 10 Mar 2007 16:44:36 -0800, "scs0" wrote:

I isolated that koi from the others and then took it to the vet. Oh
what fun it is to transport a large fish to the vet. Anyway, they
took some samples of the fish's spots and had them analyzed. At the
office the vet was able to determine that there was a fungal infection
going on, but he sent the sample of the mass away to the University of
Florida to analysis. They reported that the fish had malignant
carcinoma and that there was nothing that could be done. This was
good news because the alternative was either carp pox or another viral
infection and both of those were contageous and uncurable. Cancer is
not. The fungal infection was probably the result of the fish having
a compromised immune system.

I found out all that information the day after the fish died. I had
it isolated in about 20 gallons of water until I found out what to do
next and was treating it for the fungal infection that I knew it
already had. The water was unfiltered so I would replace half the
water every day and had an aerator bubbling in the water 24/7 and
during the daylight hours a second solar air bubbler kicked in. He
was even eating, but one day I went out to do the daily ritual and as
soon as I took the lid off the container it started to rain. I left
and forgot to put the lid back on which meant the airbubbler wasn't
bubbling in the water. 2 and a half hours later, yes only two and a
half hours later I went out and the fish was dead. I'd like to blame
that on the disease, but that's just the stupid tender nature of koi.
And part of that time a light rain would have been splashing on the
surface! Oh well, it probably woudn't have lived much longer anyway.