Koi living in mud ponds.
 

Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live in mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to have clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

David Larson wrote:
Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live in mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to have clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David


We like to have clear water so that we can see our fish.
That is for us, not the fishes ;-)

--
Bonnie
NJ
http://home.earthlink.net/~maebe43/

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

What am I missing here????

Nothing. Clear water is for viewing the beautiful koi from above.

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

Must be a Japanese thing. My koi like green water ;)

David Larson wrote:

Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live in mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to have clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

Disclaimer: I know nothing about koi -- I'm still amazed that my goldfish
from PetsMart are still alive 4 years later in my teeny 3-foot water garden!

However, a few things occurred to me after checking out the website
mentioned in David's post below. And definitely, I think people should
check out this page on the website
http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/farm%20photos.htm for the beautiful photos,
especially the terraced(?) ponds.

First, "mud pond" may mean something entirely different to the Japanese (or
it doesn't translate exactly) -- perhaps "mud pond" only refers to a pond
carved out of dirt, rather than lined with some other material?

Second, the water does indeed look very muddy, but might that not be caused
by all the people & activity in the pond? (After all, these photos show a
harvest; I did not see any pictures of "undisturbed" ponds.)

Third, as my husband would remind me, "well, after all, they're a member of
the carp family, aren't they? Do you think that carp get crystal clear
water everywhere?" (to which I reply that I had not given that particular
topic much thought, as indeed I had not).

Just my $.02 worth,

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC
________________________


"David Larson" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in
order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live in
mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their
Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to have
clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the
water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

I read somewhere that the mud or something in the mud helps give the fish
better color.


"Matt Rosing" wrote in message
...
Must be a Japanese thing. My koi like green water ;)

David Larson wrote:

Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in
order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live in
mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their
Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to
have clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the
water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

There have been several to many articles on this very subject
in pond magazines and books. Yes, the Japanese do indeed
use mud ponds to grow out their Koi. The mud makes the
colors much brighter. The Japanese don't keep the Koi in
these ponds all their lives - just a portion of.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Anne Lurie" wrote in message
om...
Disclaimer: I know nothing about koi -- I'm still amazed that my
goldfish
from PetsMart are still alive 4 years later in my teeny 3-foot water
garden!

However, a few things occurred to me after checking out the website
mentioned in David's post below. And definitely, I think people should
check out this page on the website
http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/farm%20photos.htm for the beautiful photos,
especially the terraced(?) ponds.

First, "mud pond" may mean something entirely different to the Japanese
(or
it doesn't translate exactly) -- perhaps "mud pond" only refers to a
pond
carved out of dirt, rather than lined with some other material?

Second, the water does indeed look very muddy, but might that not be
caused
by all the people & activity in the pond? (After all, these photos show a
harvest; I did not see any pictures of "undisturbed" ponds.)

Third, as my husband would remind me, "well, after all, they're a member
of
the carp family, aren't they? Do you think that carp get crystal clear
water everywhere?" (to which I reply that I had not given that particular
topic much thought, as indeed I had not).

Just my $.02 worth,

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC
________________________


"David Larson" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in
order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live
in
mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their
Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to
have
clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the
water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

David Larson wrote:
Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live in mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to have clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David



--
the Koi dont mind the dirty water algae some bit of mud etc as long as
the chemistry is OK its us that are owned by fish that like the clesr
watr so we can see our prettys




John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:50:06 -0800, David Larson
wrote:

What am I missing here????

I'm not sure. Did you know the koi is a carp?
Did you know the koi have teeth back in their throat for crushing things
like snail shells and other small shellfish they dig up from the bottom?
If you knew that you knew their natural habitat is mud bottom even
though most koi keepers don't want their fish referred to as bottom
feeders, that is what they are.

Regards,

Hal

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

The "mud ponds" the Japanese use are finishing ponds - where the koi go to
"finish" before a show. The "mud" is calcium bentonite clay - a very
specific type of clay. It has very high mineral content and has been proven
over the centuries to improve the color of the koi and the luster of their
skin. This particular clay has many uses, and is even sprinkled over food
here in the States as an aid to digestion. Many paste foods include a half
cup or so of bentonite clay as an ingredient. The fish are placed in the
finishing ponds for 6 months to a year, during which time they aren't seen
at all (due to the density of the mud) until the pond is drained for
harvesting. Then it's like Christmas morning!

The koi don't mind "unclear" water (green algae or mud), their owners do
GBG! We don't like feeding "lips" - all that we can see when the water is
murky. We want to see our prized finny pets, so we want clear water.
Actually, if the water was murky, it would probably save their lives, as it
would be a lot harder for predators to see them. The water can be funky (to
us), but as long as the ammonia, nitrItes, pH and DO are in line, the fish
could care less!

Lee

"David Larson" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in
order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live in
mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their
Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to have
clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the
water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

Hey Lee ... Is the calcium bentonite clay the same thing as
Koi Clay? I do hope so ... I just bought a bunch! Have
only used it one week so far. I notice the rocks that have
fallen in over the years are now a deep brown. Wonder if
this is from the Koi Clay? Guess I should call the owner
VBG I also sprinkled about a tablespoon or two on the
roses.... miracle stuff! None on my food yet.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
The "mud ponds" the Japanese use are finishing ponds - where the koi go to
"finish" before a show. The "mud" is calcium bentonite clay - a very
specific type of clay. It has very high mineral content and has been
proven
over the centuries to improve the color of the koi and the luster of their
skin. This particular clay has many uses, and is even sprinkled over food
here in the States as an aid to digestion. Many paste foods include a half
cup or so of bentonite clay as an ingredient. The fish are placed in the
finishing ponds for 6 months to a year, during which time they aren't seen
at all (due to the density of the mud) until the pond is drained for
harvesting. Then it's like Christmas morning!

The koi don't mind "unclear" water (green algae or mud), their owners do
GBG! We don't like feeding "lips" - all that we can see when the water
is
murky. We want to see our prized finny pets, so we want clear water.
Actually, if the water was murky, it would probably save their lives, as
it
would be a lot harder for predators to see them. The water can be funky
(to
us), but as long as the ammonia, nitrItes, pH and DO are in line, the fish
could care less!

Lee

"David Larson" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in
order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live
in
mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their
Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to
have
clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the
water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

Nedra, where did you find calcium bentonite? Most bentonite I've seen
here has been sodium bentonite, and when I ask about calcium bentonite
am told there is no difference between the two.
--
zookeeper

Nedra wrote:
Hey Lee ... Is the calcium bentonite clay the same thing as
Koi Clay? I do hope so ... I just bought a bunch! ...

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

"Nedra" wrote:

Hey Lee ... Is the calcium bentonite clay the same thing as
Koi Clay?

Bentonite:
http://www.csminchem.co.uk/bentonite.htm

Koi Clay
http://www.koitonic.com/what's%20it.htm

The latter site indicates it is calcium bentonite, and the former
indicates that sodium bentonite has different "gelling" properties.

usd $28/10 lbs from the latter site.

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

Nedra wrote:
Hey Lee ... Is the calcium bentonite clay the same thing as
Koi Clay? I do hope so ... I just bought a bunch! Have
only used it one week so far. I notice the rocks that have
fallen in over the years are now a deep brown. Wonder if
this is from the Koi Clay? Guess I should call the owner
VBG I also sprinkled about a tablespoon or two on the
roses.... miracle stuff! None on my food yet.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118


Nedra
youll love the koi clay what it does to your pond
it is the betonite



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

John Rutz wrote:


Nedra wrote:

Hey Lee ... Is the calcium bentonite clay the same thing as
Koi Clay? I do hope so ... I just bought a bunch! Have
only used it one week so far. I notice the rocks that have
fallen in over the years are now a deep brown. Wonder if
this is from the Koi Clay? Guess I should call the owner
VBG I also sprinkled about a tablespoon or two on the
roses.... miracle stuff! None on my food yet.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118


Nedra
youll love the koi clay what it does to your pond
it is the betonite



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from
bad judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com


I have started to use the koi clay this season. My pond was
beautifully clear until the rains started and now they are a
mess. All the readings are good, but my clarity is gone. I
just dosed again with the BZT. It was so nice 2 weeks ago,
hopefully they will be again soon.

--
Bonnie
NJ
http://home.earthlink.net/~maebe43/

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

There are three brands that I know of that are marketed for koi. Koi Klay,
TerraPond, and Refine. All are calcium bentonites/montmorillonites. The
people that market TerraPond also have a clay capsule that they market in
the health food stores. Supposedly helps with your digestion, supplies
minerals, etc. etc. The manufacturer stated that a lot of third world
country women, particularly during pregnancy eat clay soils to get the
needed minerals.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"zookeeper" wrote in message
...
Nedra, where did you find calcium bentonite? Most bentonite I've seen
here has been sodium bentonite, and when I ask about calcium bentonite
am told there is no difference between the two.
--
zookeeper

Nedra wrote:
Hey Lee ... Is the calcium bentonite clay the same thing as
Koi Clay? I do hope so ... I just bought a bunch! ...

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

Hal wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:50:06 -0800, David Larson
wrote:

What am I missing here????

Did you know the koi is a carp?

Yes.

Did you know the koi have teeth back in their throat for crushing things
like snail shells and other small shellfish they dig up from the bottom?

Yes.

If you knew that you knew their natural habitat is mud bottom even
though most koi keepers don't want their fish referred to as bottom
feeders, that is what they are.

Yes.

Hindsight being 20/20 I can see my question was pretty stupid.

- David

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

Lee Brouillet wrote:

The "mud ponds" the Japanese use are finishing ponds - where the koi go to
"finish" before a show. The "mud" is calcium bentonite clay - a very
specific type of clay. It has very high mineral content and has been proven
over the centuries to improve the color of the koi and the luster of their
skin. This particular clay has many uses, and is even sprinkled over food
here in the States as an aid to digestion. Many paste foods include a half
cup or so of bentonite clay as an ingredient. The fish are placed in the
finishing ponds for 6 months to a year, during which time they aren't seen
at all (due to the density of the mud) until the pond is drained for
harvesting. Then it's like Christmas morning!

The koi don't mind "unclear" water (green algae or mud), their owners do
GBG! We don't like feeding "lips" - all that we can see when the water is
murky. We want to see our prized finny pets, so we want clear water.
Actually, if the water was murky, it would probably save their lives, as it
would be a lot harder for predators to see them. The water can be funky (to
us), but as long as the ammonia, nitrItes, pH and DO are in line, the fish
could care less!

Wow! What a great bit of information. Thanks!

- David

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

As others have noted, yes: calcium bentonite is the same as Koi Clay. I'm
not sure what you mean about the rocks: the clay doesn't really change the
color of anything (except the fish, which is why it's used in the finishing
ponds!). As RTB notes below, it's also sold in health food stores as a
source of minerals for pregnant women (that seems to be a "not uncommon"
craving: eating dirt. Me - I wanted pizza!). It's also sold to absorb toxins
in your system (you can take 1 tsp of the clay, mix it in 2 oz. of water and
drink it: don't take it within 2 hrs. of other meds, or it will absorb
those, too!). And I found that it makes a nice mud mask for do-it-yourself
facials. Great stuff!

Lee


"Nedra" wrote in message
thlink.net...
Hey Lee ... Is the calcium bentonite clay the same thing as
Koi Clay? I do hope so ... I just bought a bunch! Have
only used it one week so far. I notice the rocks that have
fallen in over the years are now a deep brown. Wonder if
this is from the Koi Clay? Guess I should call the owner
VBG I also sprinkled about a tablespoon or two on the
roses.... miracle stuff! None on my food yet.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
The "mud ponds" the Japanese use are finishing ponds - where the koi go
to
"finish" before a show. The "mud" is calcium bentonite clay - a very
specific type of clay. It has very high mineral content and has been
proven
over the centuries to improve the color of the koi and the luster of
their
skin. This particular clay has many uses, and is even sprinkled over
food
here in the States as an aid to digestion. Many paste foods include a
half
cup or so of bentonite clay as an ingredient. The fish are placed in the
finishing ponds for 6 months to a year, during which time they aren't
seen
at all (due to the density of the mud) until the pond is drained for
harvesting. Then it's like Christmas morning!

The koi don't mind "unclear" water (green algae or mud), their owners do
GBG! We don't like feeding "lips" - all that we can see when the water
is
murky. We want to see our prized finny pets, so we want clear water.
Actually, if the water was murky, it would probably save their lives, as
it
would be a lot harder for predators to see them. The water can be funky
(to
us), but as long as the ammonia, nitrItes, pH and DO are in line, the
fish
could care less!

Lee

"David Larson" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water
in
order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live
in
mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their
Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to
have
clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the
water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

Zookeeper, try http://www.koivillage.com
The owner is Gene Winstead, and he's a real sweetheart. He has links to
other pages on his site about the clay he sells (Koi Clay) and its
specifics. Gene is the "distributor"; everyone else gets Koi Clay from him
and resells it.

Lee

"zookeeper" wrote in message
...
Nedra, where did you find calcium bentonite? Most bentonite I've seen
here has been sodium bentonite, and when I ask about calcium bentonite
am told there is no difference between the two.
--
zookeeper

Nedra wrote:
Hey Lee ... Is the calcium bentonite clay the same thing as
Koi Clay? I do hope so ... I just bought a bunch! ...

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

Lee ... I meant the rocks that have fallen into the pond -
used to make up the surroundings and
waterfall. If Koi Clay doesn't discolor anything then I'd better just
look elsewhere. Or have someone remove them? Grin

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
As others have noted, yes: calcium bentonite is the same as Koi Clay. I'm
not sure what you mean about the rocks: the clay doesn't really change the
color of anything (except the fish, which is why it's used in the
finishing
ponds!). As RTB notes below, it's also sold in health food stores as a
source of minerals for pregnant women (that seems to be a "not uncommon"
craving: eating dirt. Me - I wanted pizza!). It's also sold to absorb
toxins
in your system (you can take 1 tsp of the clay, mix it in 2 oz. of water
and
drink it: don't take it within 2 hrs. of other meds, or it will absorb
those, too!). And I found that it makes a nice mud mask for do-it-yourself
facials. Great stuff!

Lee


"Nedra" wrote in message
thlink.net...
Hey Lee ... Is the calcium bentonite clay the same thing as
Koi Clay? I do hope so ... I just bought a bunch! Have
only used it one week so far. I notice the rocks that have
fallen in over the years are now a deep brown. Wonder if
this is from the Koi Clay? Guess I should call the owner
VBG I also sprinkled about a tablespoon or two on the
roses.... miracle stuff! None on my food yet.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
The "mud ponds" the Japanese use are finishing ponds - where the koi
go
to
"finish" before a show. The "mud" is calcium bentonite clay - a very
specific type of clay. It has very high mineral content and has been
proven
over the centuries to improve the color of the koi and the luster of
their
skin. This particular clay has many uses, and is even sprinkled over
food
here in the States as an aid to digestion. Many paste foods include a
half
cup or so of bentonite clay as an ingredient. The fish are placed in
the
finishing ponds for 6 months to a year, during which time they aren't
seen
at all (due to the density of the mud) until the pond is drained for
harvesting. Then it's like Christmas morning!

The koi don't mind "unclear" water (green algae or mud), their owners
do
GBG! We don't like feeding "lips" - all that we can see when the
water
is
murky. We want to see our prized finny pets, so we want clear water.
Actually, if the water was murky, it would probably save their lives,
as
it
would be a lot harder for predators to see them. The water can be
funky
(to
us), but as long as the ammonia, nitrItes, pH and DO are in line, the
fish
could care less!

Lee

"David Larson" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water
in
order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi
live
in
mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in
their
Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary
to
have
clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems
the
water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

Koi living in mud ponds.
 

Thanks Lee. I'll check it out.
--
Kathy B, zookeeper

Lee Brouillet wrote:
Zookeeper, try http://www.koivillage.com
The owner is Gene Winstead, and he's a real sweetheart. He has links to
other pages on his site about the clay he sells (Koi Clay) and its
specifics. Gene is the "distributor"; everyone else gets Koi Clay from him
and resells it.