catfish food for koi :-)
 

The average age of wild carp live in those european rivers is brief indeed. There is
a difference between just getting enough and thriving. Everything I have read says
koi need protein to build muscles and fat for energy. That they cannot digest
complex carbohydrates.
Koi teeth are not made for thorough mastication of foods, nor do they secrete
digestive juices into their mouth while they chew. Our land based adaptations help
us start pre-digesting our food so the nutrients can be extracted before the food
mass exits our body.
Koi dont have a true stomach, they have a pyloric ceca which contains digestive
enzymes and their liver and pancreas secrete enzymes right into the intestines. Land
based animals like us produce acids that start the breakdown complex and land based
foods in the large stomach.
Everything koi have evolved to eat is wet with little to no cellulose. They have
evolved to be a perpetual eating machine. They eat small amounts of low fiber,
nutrient rich foods all day long, not big chunks of dry food with lots of
fiber/filler. Fiber does not help them digest out the protein and fats they need
from the mass of food moving through their intestines in a large bolus.
Koi are adapted to digesting simple fats, the kind that go rancid very fast if food
is sitting around in a warehouse. But corn oil and vegetable oils are typically used
in cheap fish farm foods because they are cheap and dont go rancid at room temp.
Manufacturers of food for farmers that grow food fish (catfish) have found ways of
pre-digesting the complex carbohydrates and fats so they are available to put size
and bulk on catfish quickly. People do report fish fed on corn develop fatty livers.
I dont know if this is directly related to the corn in the food, or the fact that the
food could be rancid anyway and rancid oils will cause fatty liver disease. In any
case, food fish are processed and in the stores before any problems show up.
OTOH, Jo Ann, who routinely does necropsies on GF and koi says she has never found
fatty deposits in fish fed on high protein, high fat diets.
Ingrid

"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" wrote:
I suspect that carp in european rivers were pretty flexible in
their feeding habits and that it may have been hard for them to get the high
protein diets we feed...don't know, just a guess.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

catfish food for koi :-)
 

Excuse me Ingrid,

Please, give us just one meaningful scientific reference that "supports"
what you are touting. Please don't use the Canadian professor again who is
a salmon and trout specialist and has never worked with Carp or KOI. Why
do you insist on continuing to spout this drivel. Algae is made up of
cellulose which also makes up the majority of Spirulina, and any other plant
that carp eat whether it is aquatic or land based.

Most catfish foods have the same ingredients including vitamins, minerals,
etc as the food that you are always touting, in fact, Rangan makes catfish
foods and the process is very similar. I have spoken to the president of
the company.

Dr. Werner Steffens, Dr. Roland Billard, and Dr. Robert Stickney and Dr.
John Halver all say that KOI and carp should have 28 to 32% protein to
maintain these fish. All of these men are Aquaculturists and fish
nutritionist and I have mentioned this to you and any one else who wants to
know what is the right thing to feed their fish over and over again and yet
it doesn't seem to soak in. The SRAC also has reports out saying the same
thing and still you refuse to do any real searching to find out the truth
for yourself.

One of these days, you will realize how wrong you have been, but I surely
will not be hold my breath and waiting for it to happen.

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------------------------
wrote in message
...
The average age of wild carp live in those european rivers is brief
indeed. There is
a difference between just getting enough and thriving. Everything I have
read says
koi need protein to build muscles and fat for energy. That they cannot
digest
complex carbohydrates.
Koi teeth are not made for thorough mastication of foods, nor do they
secrete
digestive juices into their mouth while they chew. Our land based
adaptations help
us start pre-digesting our food so the nutrients can be extracted before
the food
mass exits our body.
Koi dont have a true stomach, they have a pyloric ceca which contains
digestive
enzymes and their liver and pancreas secrete enzymes right into the
intestines. Land
based animals like us produce acids that start the breakdown complex and
land based
foods in the large stomach.
Everything koi have evolved to eat is wet with little to no cellulose.
They have
evolved to be a perpetual eating machine. They eat small amounts of low
fiber,
nutrient rich foods all day long, not big chunks of dry food with lots of
fiber/filler. Fiber does not help them digest out the protein and fats
they need
from the mass of food moving through their intestines in a large bolus.
Koi are adapted to digesting simple fats, the kind that go rancid very
fast if food
is sitting around in a warehouse. But corn oil and vegetable oils are
typically used
in cheap fish farm foods because they are cheap and dont go rancid at room
temp.
Manufacturers of food for farmers that grow food fish (catfish) have found
ways of
pre-digesting the complex carbohydrates and fats so they are available to
put size
and bulk on catfish quickly. People do report fish fed on corn develop
fatty livers.
I dont know if this is directly related to the corn in the food, or the
fact that the
food could be rancid anyway and rancid oils will cause fatty liver
disease. In any
case, food fish are processed and in the stores before any problems show
up.
OTOH, Jo Ann, who routinely does necropsies on GF and koi says she has
never found
fatty deposits in fish fed on high protein, high fat diets.
Ingrid

"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" wrote:
I suspect that carp in european rivers were pretty flexible in
their feeding habits and that it may have been hard for them to get the
high
protein diets we feed...don't know, just a guess.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

catfish food for koi :-)
 

What she is saying maybe true for wild Carp and Koi...

How many times have you been to a wild koi pond and found naturally occuring
bags/boxes/containers of koi food.

Diets of Wild and Captitive Fish should not be compared
"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Excuse me Ingrid,

Please, give us just one meaningful scientific reference that "supports"
what you are touting. Please don't use the Canadian professor again who
is
a salmon and trout specialist and has never worked with Carp or KOI. Why
do you insist on continuing to spout this drivel. Algae is made up of
cellulose which also makes up the majority of Spirulina, and any other
plant
that carp eat whether it is aquatic or land based.

Most catfish foods have the same ingredients including vitamins, minerals,
etc as the food that you are always touting, in fact, Rangan makes catfish
foods and the process is very similar. I have spoken to the president of
the company.

Dr. Werner Steffens, Dr. Roland Billard, and Dr. Robert Stickney and Dr.
John Halver all say that KOI and carp should have 28 to 32% protein to
maintain these fish. All of these men are Aquaculturists and fish
nutritionist and I have mentioned this to you and any one else who wants
to
know what is the right thing to feed their fish over and over again and
yet
it doesn't seem to soak in. The SRAC also has reports out saying the same
thing and still you refuse to do any real searching to find out the truth
for yourself.

One of these days, you will realize how wrong you have been, but I surely
will not be hold my breath and waiting for it to happen.

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------------------------
wrote in message
...
The average age of wild carp live in those european rivers is brief
indeed. There is
a difference between just getting enough and thriving. Everything I
have
read says
koi need protein to build muscles and fat for energy. That they cannot
digest
complex carbohydrates.
Koi teeth are not made for thorough mastication of foods, nor do they
secrete
digestive juices into their mouth while they chew. Our land based
adaptations help
us start pre-digesting our food so the nutrients can be extracted before
the food
mass exits our body.
Koi dont have a true stomach, they have a pyloric ceca which contains
digestive
enzymes and their liver and pancreas secrete enzymes right into the
intestines. Land
based animals like us produce acids that start the breakdown complex and
land based
foods in the large stomach.
Everything koi have evolved to eat is wet with little to no cellulose.
They have
evolved to be a perpetual eating machine. They eat small amounts of low
fiber,
nutrient rich foods all day long, not big chunks of dry food with lots
of
fiber/filler. Fiber does not help them digest out the protein and fats
they need
from the mass of food moving through their intestines in a large bolus.
Koi are adapted to digesting simple fats, the kind that go rancid very
fast if food
is sitting around in a warehouse. But corn oil and vegetable oils are
typically used
in cheap fish farm foods because they are cheap and dont go rancid at
room
temp.
Manufacturers of food for farmers that grow food fish (catfish) have
found
ways of
pre-digesting the complex carbohydrates and fats so they are available
to
put size
and bulk on catfish quickly. People do report fish fed on corn develop
fatty livers.
I dont know if this is directly related to the corn in the food, or the
fact that the
food could be rancid anyway and rancid oils will cause fatty liver
disease. In any
case, food fish are processed and in the stores before any problems show
up.
OTOH, Jo Ann, who routinely does necropsies on GF and koi says she has
never found
fatty deposits in fish fed on high protein, high fat diets.
Ingrid

"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" wrote:
I suspect that carp in european rivers were pretty flexible in
their feeding habits and that it may have been hard for them to get the
high
protein diets we feed...don't know, just a guess.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

catfish food for koi :-)
 

First John,

There is no such thing as wild KOI. KOI are the domesticated variety. The
only thing that she says about wild carp is that they have a brief life in
the wild.

She then goes into talking about protein needed by KOI; 'nough said. She
is still wrong. This is getting laughable.

Tom L.L.
"john.stoddard" wrote in message
...
What she is saying maybe true for wild Carp and Koi...

How many times have you been to a wild koi pond and found naturally
occuring
bags/boxes/containers of koi food.

Diets of Wild and Captitive Fish should not be compared
"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Excuse me Ingrid,

Please, give us just one meaningful scientific reference that "supports"
what you are touting. Please don't use the Canadian professor again who
is
a salmon and trout specialist and has never worked with Carp or KOI.
Why
do you insist on continuing to spout this drivel. Algae is made up of
cellulose which also makes up the majority of Spirulina, and any other
plant
that carp eat whether it is aquatic or land based.

Most catfish foods have the same ingredients including vitamins,
minerals,
etc as the food that you are always touting, in fact, Rangan makes
catfish
foods and the process is very similar. I have spoken to the president
of
the company.

Dr. Werner Steffens, Dr. Roland Billard, and Dr. Robert Stickney and Dr.
John Halver all say that KOI and carp should have 28 to 32% protein to
maintain these fish. All of these men are Aquaculturists and fish
nutritionist and I have mentioned this to you and any one else who wants
to
know what is the right thing to feed their fish over and over again and
yet
it doesn't seem to soak in. The SRAC also has reports out saying the
same
thing and still you refuse to do any real searching to find out the
truth
for yourself.

One of these days, you will realize how wrong you have been, but I
surely
will not be hold my breath and waiting for it to happen.

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------------------------
wrote in message
...
The average age of wild carp live in those european rivers is brief
indeed. There is
a difference between just getting enough and thriving. Everything I
have
read says
koi need protein to build muscles and fat for energy. That they
cannot
digest
complex carbohydrates.
Koi teeth are not made for thorough mastication of foods, nor do they
secrete
digestive juices into their mouth while they chew. Our land based
adaptations help
us start pre-digesting our food so the nutrients can be extracted
before
the food
mass exits our body.
Koi dont have a true stomach, they have a pyloric ceca which contains
digestive
enzymes and their liver and pancreas secrete enzymes right into the
intestines. Land
based animals like us produce acids that start the breakdown complex
and
land based
foods in the large stomach.
Everything koi have evolved to eat is wet with little to no cellulose.
They have
evolved to be a perpetual eating machine. They eat small amounts of
low
fiber,
nutrient rich foods all day long, not big chunks of dry food with lots
of
fiber/filler. Fiber does not help them digest out the protein and
fats
they need
from the mass of food moving through their intestines in a large
bolus.
Koi are adapted to digesting simple fats, the kind that go rancid very
fast if food
is sitting around in a warehouse. But corn oil and vegetable oils are
typically used
in cheap fish farm foods because they are cheap and dont go rancid at
room
temp.
Manufacturers of food for farmers that grow food fish (catfish) have
found
ways of
pre-digesting the complex carbohydrates and fats so they are available
to
put size
and bulk on catfish quickly. People do report fish fed on corn
develop
fatty livers.
I dont know if this is directly related to the corn in the food, or
the
fact that the
food could be rancid anyway and rancid oils will cause fatty liver
disease. In any
case, food fish are processed and in the stores before any problems
show
up.
OTOH, Jo Ann, who routinely does necropsies on GF and koi says she has
never found
fatty deposits in fish fed on high protein, high fat diets.
Ingrid

"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" wrote:
I suspect that carp in european rivers were pretty flexible in
their feeding habits and that it may have been hard for them to get
the
high
protein diets we feed...don't know, just a guess.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

catfish food for koi :-)
 

I visited a Large pond a few years ago at a resort that had several 36"
+ carp that did quite well on popcorn, that was all they were being fed

John Rutz

Tom La Bron wrote:
First John,

There is no such thing as wild KOI. KOI are the domesticated variety. The
only thing that she says about wild carp is that they have a brief life in
the wild.

She then goes into talking about protein needed by KOI; 'nough said. She
is still wrong. This is getting laughable.

Tom L.L.
"john.stoddard" wrote in message
...

What she is saying maybe true for wild Carp and Koi...

How many times have you been to a wild koi pond and found naturally

occuring

bags/boxes/containers of koi food.

Diets of Wild and Captitive Fish should not be compared
"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...

Excuse me Ingrid,

Please, give us just one meaningful scientific reference that "supports"
what you are touting. Please don't use the Canadian professor again who

is

a salmon and trout specialist and has never worked with Carp or KOI.

Why

do you insist on continuing to spout this drivel. Algae is made up of
cellulose which also makes up the majority of Spirulina, and any other

plant

that carp eat whether it is aquatic or land based.

Most catfish foods have the same ingredients including vitamins,

minerals,

etc as the food that you are always touting, in fact, Rangan makes

catfish

foods and the process is very similar. I have spoken to the president

of

the company.

Dr. Werner Steffens, Dr. Roland Billard, and Dr. Robert Stickney and Dr.
John Halver all say that KOI and carp should have 28 to 32% protein to
maintain these fish. All of these men are Aquaculturists and fish
nutritionist and I have mentioned this to you and any one else who wants

to

know what is the right thing to feed their fish over and over again and

yet

it doesn't seem to soak in. The SRAC also has reports out saying the

same

thing and still you refuse to do any real searching to find out the

truth

for yourself.

One of these days, you will realize how wrong you have been, but I

surely

will not be hold my breath and waiting for it to happen.

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------------------------
wrote in message
...

The average age of wild carp live in those european rivers is brief

indeed. There is

a difference between just getting enough and thriving. Everything I

have

read says

koi need protein to build muscles and fat for energy. That they

cannot

digest

complex carbohydrates.
Koi teeth are not made for thorough mastication of foods, nor do they

secrete

digestive juices into their mouth while they chew. Our land based

adaptations help

us start pre-digesting our food so the nutrients can be extracted

before

the food

mass exits our body.
Koi dont have a true stomach, they have a pyloric ceca which contains

digestive

enzymes and their liver and pancreas secrete enzymes right into the

intestines. Land

based animals like us produce acids that start the breakdown complex

and

land based

foods in the large stomach.
Everything koi have evolved to eat is wet with little to no cellulose.

They have

evolved to be a perpetual eating machine. They eat small amounts of

low

fiber,

nutrient rich foods all day long, not big chunks of dry food with lots

of

fiber/filler. Fiber does not help them digest out the protein and

fats

they need

from the mass of food moving through their intestines in a large

bolus.

Koi are adapted to digesting simple fats, the kind that go rancid very

fast if food

is sitting around in a warehouse. But corn oil and vegetable oils are

typically used

in cheap fish farm foods because they are cheap and dont go rancid at

room

temp.

Manufacturers of food for farmers that grow food fish (catfish) have

found

ways of

pre-digesting the complex carbohydrates and fats so they are available

to

put size

and bulk on catfish quickly. People do report fish fed on corn

develop

fatty livers.

I dont know if this is directly related to the corn in the food, or

the

fact that the

food could be rancid anyway and rancid oils will cause fatty liver

disease. In any

case, food fish are processed and in the stores before any problems

show

up.

OTOH, Jo Ann, who routinely does necropsies on GF and koi says she has

never found

fatty deposits in fish fed on high protein, high fat diets.
Ingrid

"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" wrote:
I suspect that carp in european rivers were pretty flexible in

their feeding habits and that it may have been hard for them to get

the

high

protein diets we feed...don't know, just a guess.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.







--





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

catfish food for koi :-)
 

John Rutz wrote:
I visited a Large pond a few years ago at a resort that had several 36"
+ carp that did quite well on popcorn, that was all they were being fed

That may be all they "were being fed," but I'm sure they were finding
plenty of other things to eat in that pond: algae, plants, larvae,
insects, small pond "critters," caviar, etc.
--
Kathy B
Zone 6

catfish food for koi :-)
 

zookeeper wrote:
John Rutz wrote:

I visited a Large pond a few years ago at a resort that had several
36" + carp that did quite well on popcorn, that was all they were
being fed


That may be all they "were being fed," but I'm sure they were finding
plenty of other things to eat in that pond: algae, plants, larvae,
insects, small pond "critters," caviar, etc.
--
Kathy B
Zone 6


oh yea true but I meant human introduced food :-) the resort was in the
middle of the arizona/nevada desert and they had several hundred carp
in it
--





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

catfish food for koi :-)
 

zookeeper wrote:


That may be all they "were being fed," but I'm sure they were finding
plenty of other things to eat in that pond: algae, plants, larvae,
insects, small pond "critters," caviar, etc.

I have a sole koi that had been my wife's but got too big for a 55-gallon
tank. Purchased at a pet store at maybe 3" long. He now lives in a
bass-infested 3/4 acre earth pond. Markings much more clear than when he
lived indoors. He's approaching 3 feet long, and acts like he owns the
joint. I don't feed at all, but there's plenty of algae, larvae, and
things best left unmentioned in there. Thankfully hardy water lilies and
lotus are too tough for Walter.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at www.albany.net/~gwoods
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1200' elevation. NY WO G

This is an interesting thread.

I would like to know if the people who posted to this thread in 2003 are still around and would let me know how the cat fish food worked out for them, VS the people who fed their koi, koi food.

One of the reasons i revived this thread is that I picked up a 40lb bag of Catfish and pond fish food manufactured by Cargil for about $18.00 to try out over the Rangen 25lb I get for $48.00

The posts about catfish outliving carp & koi must have been made before Google was invented because it turns out that catfish can live up to 60 years vs Koi that have an average lifespan of 20-30 years (Provided that the koi pond is not in Japan).

I compared the bag of catfish feed to Rangen and the catfish feed was at 32% protein and Rangen was 36%. The feeds are pretty close to identical other than I use a 3/16 - 4.8mm sized pellet from Rangen, and the Cargil feed is about twice the diameter

So anyway,
This thread is revived!!!

How many of you had koi die from eating catfish food vs the people who fed theirs koi food? (This should be interesting).

Thank you for reviving this thread. I haven't tried catfish food before so I'm also eager to know. '

Maybe the owner of this thread can let us know. Please..