Lowering pH
 

What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.
Kathy

Lowering pH
 

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:52:20 -0400, "Jeff & Kathy Brown"
wrote:

What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.

HCl, (hydrochloric or muriatic acid) is fine. Follow instructions carefully.
This stuff will kill fish and plants instantly if not diluted properly.

Bob

Lowering pH
 

Bob, isn't the KH low though? I know baking soda will
raise the KH -and pH will stablize at 8.4 - but I have no
idea what baking soda will do to lower the pH. Seems
like the buffering should also be addressed.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Bob Adkins" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:52:20 -0400, "Jeff & Kathy Brown"
wrote:

What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.

HCl, (hydrochloric or muriatic acid) is fine. Follow instructions
carefully.
This stuff will kill fish and plants instantly if not diluted properly.

Bob

Lowering pH
 

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:58:17 GMT, "Nedra"
wrote:

Bob, isn't the KH low though? I know baking soda will
raise the KH -and pH will stablize at 8.4 - but I have no
idea what baking soda will do to lower the pH. Seems
like the buffering should also be addressed.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Bob Adkins" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:52:20 -0400, "Jeff & Kathy Brown"
wrote:

What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.

HCl, (hydrochloric or muriatic acid) is fine. Follow instructions
carefully.
This stuff will kill fish and plants instantly if not diluted properly.

Bob




Baking Soda will also lower the Ph to 8.4. Its strange but it will
raise it if its low, and lower it if its high.

Theron

Lowering pH
 

Theron wrote in message . ..
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:58:17 GMT, "Nedra"
wrote:

Bob, isn't the KH low though? I know baking soda will
raise the KH -and pH will stablize at 8.4 - but I have no
idea what baking soda will do to lower the pH. Seems
like the buffering should also be addressed.

Nedra

Baking Soda will also lower the Ph to 8.4. Its strange but it will
raise it if its low, and lower it if its high.

Theron

I have tried to stabilize my KH/GH/PH for a 10 day straight period I
by added baking soda and limestone every day in the amounts that Rod
recommended.
(6oz baking soda + 1 1/2 oz epsom salt + 6 oz pelletized limestone
daily to raise KH/GH each one degree daily. He recommened this slow
raise due to fish in pond).

Note: I was only able to find the one type of limestone here.

It hasn't worked. I think because of all the rain we get here in
Florida (we have had rain every afternoon for at least a month now).
I finally gave up. Any ideas on how to overcome the KH/PH flux with
all this rain?

Last reading were KH 180, GH 150, but PH bounces from 7.8 AM to 9+
late afternoon. I was not able to get either the KH or GH any higher.

Pond is in full sun so heat is also a factor as water gets to high
80's. I'm running a 22' stream into 1650 gallon pond stocked with 70
bunches of anachris, a few reed plants, a half dozen iris and dozen
water lilies which right now are covering about 1/2 the surface. Pump
is a 3600 pondmaster going thru a Savio skimmer with one filter pad in
it. Savio has only been running for the last month. Pond is stocked
with 9 Goldfish (3 are babies about 3" long, other 6 range from 6" up
to 9"). I only feed the fish occasionally (maybe once a week). Pond
has been up and running since early May and I can only see down about
10" due to brown algae. Getting ready to install my biofilter in the
next few days. Any suggestions?

Sue W

Lowering pH
 

Sue, you don't need to tell me about the rain: it *tries" to screw with my
water chemistry, too. When the rain comes from "inland" over the phosphate
mines, I've had my KH drop by 80 points in a few hours. But you've got a few
problems going on he new pond, heavy rain, and that (expletive deleted)
algae.

a. At this point, I'd stop with the epsom salts and lime, as you're GH is
getting high. Don't add any more until your GH drops by 50 points or so. I'd
try to keep it in the 100-125 range.

b. Keep adding the baking soda. I keep my KH in the 11-13 drop range
(~200 to 230). I don't even test my pH any more unless I suspect a problem,
because I know that my pH will be 8.2 AM and 8.4 PM, rock solid.

BUT. . . your pond hasn't stabilized yet. It's still new. So until it
stabilizes, you need to check the pH also, otherwise you won't know what's
going on.

c. You say "brown algae" - is it that stuff that floats to the top during
the day and drops back down at night? If so, welcome to the world of
cyanobacteria. I finally sent samples of my algae to a lab for diagnosis.
This will be a whole OTHER topic of conversation! But let me know and we can
work on that, too.

Even if it's just plain ol' algae, it's a problem. At night, plants
(all those potted ones you have and the algae) reverse photosynthesis and
use up oxygen (instead of creating it, like they do during the day), and
release CO2 (carbon dioxide), which is acid. That drops your pH. During the
day, the plants create O2, which raises your pH. So, you have a yo-yo effect
going here. Obviously, one of the best things you could do towards
stabilizing the pH would be to get the algae problem under control, which is
easier said than done. However, in the meantime, I suggest adding air to
your pond with airstones or a good air manifold. It will serve a two-fold
purpose: a) our water temps are HIGH during the day, and warm water carries
less oxygen than cooler water, so it will make the fish more comfortable;
and b) it will keep the oxygen levels higher at night, and reduce the pH
swing. Besides, my fish like to swim through the bubbles: I think it
tickles!

Let me know if there's anything else I can help with.

Lee





"Sue Walsh" wrote in message
om...
Theron wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:58:17 GMT, "Nedra"
wrote:

Bob, isn't the KH low though? I know baking soda will
raise the KH -and pH will stablize at 8.4 - but I have no
idea what baking soda will do to lower the pH. Seems
like the buffering should also be addressed.

Nedra

Baking Soda will also lower the Ph to 8.4. Its strange but it will
raise it if its low, and lower it if its high.

Theron

I have tried to stabilize my KH/GH/PH for a 10 day straight period I
by added baking soda and limestone every day in the amounts that Rod
recommended.
(6oz baking soda + 1 1/2 oz epsom salt + 6 oz pelletized limestone
daily to raise KH/GH each one degree daily. He recommened this slow
raise due to fish in pond).

Note: I was only able to find the one type of limestone here.

It hasn't worked. I think because of all the rain we get here in
Florida (we have had rain every afternoon for at least a month now).
I finally gave up. Any ideas on how to overcome the KH/PH flux with
all this rain?

Last reading were KH 180, GH 150, but PH bounces from 7.8 AM to 9+
late afternoon. I was not able to get either the KH or GH any higher.

Pond is in full sun so heat is also a factor as water gets to high
80's. I'm running a 22' stream into 1650 gallon pond stocked with 70
bunches of anachris, a few reed plants, a half dozen iris and dozen
water lilies which right now are covering about 1/2 the surface. Pump
is a 3600 pondmaster going thru a Savio skimmer with one filter pad in
it. Savio has only been running for the last month. Pond is stocked
with 9 Goldfish (3 are babies about 3" long, other 6 range from 6" up
to 9"). I only feed the fish occasionally (maybe once a week). Pond
has been up and running since early May and I can only see down about
10" due to brown algae. Getting ready to install my biofilter in the
next few days. Any suggestions?

Sue W

Lowering pH
 

Kathy, as Theron stated, Baking Soda is strange inasmuch as it will both
raise and lower pH to the 8.2-8.4 range. It will also raise your KH to a
more respectable number, which will add the buffering you need to protect
against pH crashes in heavy rains.

Are you by any chance on well water?

By the way, 9 is "getting" high, but is still a safe and respectable level.
Don't lose any sleep over it: your fish and plants will do just fine.

Lee

"Jeff & Kathy Brown" wrote in message
...
What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.
Kathy

Lowering pH
 

Rod told me to add 1 cup of baking soda for every 1,000
gallons of water. That is what I've been doing all year!
I add the baking soda for three days running. Then wait
until we have lots of rain. Go thru the whole process again.
I have a pond full of Koi and goldfish..... no one has been
hurt yet.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Sue Walsh" wrote in message
om...
Theron wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:58:17 GMT, "Nedra"
wrote:

Bob, isn't the KH low though? I know baking soda will
raise the KH -and pH will stablize at 8.4 - but I have no
idea what baking soda will do to lower the pH. Seems
like the buffering should also be addressed.

Nedra

Baking Soda will also lower the Ph to 8.4. Its strange but it will
raise it if its low, and lower it if its high.

Theron

I have tried to stabilize my KH/GH/PH for a 10 day straight period I
by added baking soda and limestone every day in the amounts that Rod
recommended.
(6oz baking soda + 1 1/2 oz epsom salt + 6 oz pelletized limestone
daily to raise KH/GH each one degree daily. He recommened this slow
raise due to fish in pond).

Note: I was only able to find the one type of limestone here.

It hasn't worked. I think because of all the rain we get here in
Florida (we have had rain every afternoon for at least a month now).
I finally gave up. Any ideas on how to overcome the KH/PH flux with
all this rain?

Last reading were KH 180, GH 150, but PH bounces from 7.8 AM to 9+
late afternoon. I was not able to get either the KH or GH any higher.

Pond is in full sun so heat is also a factor as water gets to high
80's. I'm running a 22' stream into 1650 gallon pond stocked with 70
bunches of anachris, a few reed plants, a half dozen iris and dozen
water lilies which right now are covering about 1/2 the surface. Pump
is a 3600 pondmaster going thru a Savio skimmer with one filter pad in
it. Savio has only been running for the last month. Pond is stocked
with 9 Goldfish (3 are babies about 3" long, other 6 range from 6" up
to 9"). I only feed the fish occasionally (maybe once a week). Pond
has been up and running since early May and I can only see down about
10" due to brown algae. Getting ready to install my biofilter in the
next few days. Any suggestions?

Sue W

Lowering pH
 

Thanks for the input Theron!

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118
"Theron" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:58:17 GMT, "Nedra"
wrote:

Bob, isn't the KH low though? I know baking soda will
raise the KH -and pH will stablize at 8.4 - but I have no
idea what baking soda will do to lower the pH. Seems
like the buffering should also be addressed.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Bob Adkins" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:52:20 -0400, "Jeff & Kathy Brown"
wrote:

What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering
at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.

HCl, (hydrochloric or muriatic acid) is fine. Follow instructions
carefully.
This stuff will kill fish and plants instantly if not diluted properly.

Bob




Baking Soda will also lower the Ph to 8.4. Its strange but it will
raise it if its low, and lower it if its high.

Theron

Lowering pH
 

Baking Soda will also lower the Ph to 8.4. Its strange but it will
raise it if its low, and lower it if its high.

Yea, Ph is a funny thing. I used to deal with it in my labs, but didn't
understand all I knew about it.

Thing is, the higher the Ph, the more baking soda will be needed. It could
take a lot. Maybe it will give the fish fresh breath and white teeth.

"Thanks for the Memories"

Bob

Lowering pH
 

Thanks, Lee for the advice. No to well water. This has been frustrating
for me because I've never had a pH/KH problem with any of our other ponds.
This is a 3 month old pond in full sunlight. And when I say full.....I mean
at least 9 hours of sun. We have a living gravel filter and lots of plants.
My ongoing fights have been getting enough surface shade, using plants, and
the pH/KH. We used a different stone for couping and my guess is that it is
full of limestone (Laurel mountain stone). The pH this morning was 7.7 at
83o. Right now (3:45) it is 9.1 at 89o. The pond is 2400 gal. with a 3/4HP
pump and because of water temp., I've added an air diffuser in the farthest
corner. During the hottest time of the day, the fish either have
disappeared in the hornwort in the deepest part of the pond or are riding
the current from the waterfall. As soon as the sun gets off the pond, they
all come out to stretch their fins.
Something I don't understand is....Nedra mentioned that Rod recommended
adding the BS over a three day period. I'm assuming that is for a gradual
decrease/increase of the pH. If the fish are going thru a pH swing, like my
situation, then why hassle with a gradual change, why not get the sucker
lowered/increased over the course of a day? It couldn't be any worse then
what they are going thru, anyway. Thanks again.
Kathy
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Kathy, as Theron stated, Baking Soda is strange inasmuch as it will both
raise and lower pH to the 8.2-8.4 range. It will also raise your KH to a
more respectable number, which will add the buffering you need to protect
against pH crashes in heavy rains.

Are you by any chance on well water?

By the way, 9 is "getting" high, but is still a safe and respectable
level.
Don't lose any sleep over it: your fish and plants will do just fine.

Lee

"Jeff & Kathy Brown" wrote in message
...
What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering
at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.
Kathy

Lowering pH
 

I try to keep my KH up at a level similar to Lee's, and if it drops to about
6 or 8 drops, the pH is still rock solid, and I just dump in about 2/3 of a
10 pound box of baking soda in the 4000 gallon pond and 1/3 in the 2500
gallon pond. That is as close as I measure. I have to do this about once
or twice a month. Cups are too small, unless you are initially trying to
stabilize the pH, where you don't want to give a pH shock.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"Nedra" wrote in message
thlink.net...
Rod told me to add 1 cup of baking soda for every 1,000
gallons of water. That is what I've been doing all year!
I add the baking soda for three days running. Then wait
until we have lots of rain. Go thru the whole process again.
I have a pond full of Koi and goldfish..... no one has been
hurt yet.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Sue Walsh" wrote in message
om...
Theron wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:58:17 GMT, "Nedra"
wrote:

Bob, isn't the KH low though? I know baking soda will
raise the KH -and pH will stablize at 8.4 - but I have no
idea what baking soda will do to lower the pH. Seems
like the buffering should also be addressed.

Nedra

Baking Soda will also lower the Ph to 8.4. Its strange but it will
raise it if its low, and lower it if its high.

Theron

I have tried to stabilize my KH/GH/PH for a 10 day straight period I
by added baking soda and limestone every day in the amounts that Rod
recommended.
(6oz baking soda + 1 1/2 oz epsom salt + 6 oz pelletized limestone
daily to raise KH/GH each one degree daily. He recommened this slow
raise due to fish in pond).

Note: I was only able to find the one type of limestone here.

It hasn't worked. I think because of all the rain we get here in
Florida (we have had rain every afternoon for at least a month now).
I finally gave up. Any ideas on how to overcome the KH/PH flux with
all this rain?

Last reading were KH 180, GH 150, but PH bounces from 7.8 AM to 9+
late afternoon. I was not able to get either the KH or GH any higher.

Pond is in full sun so heat is also a factor as water gets to high
80's. I'm running a 22' stream into 1650 gallon pond stocked with 70
bunches of anachris, a few reed plants, a half dozen iris and dozen
water lilies which right now are covering about 1/2 the surface. Pump
is a 3600 pondmaster going thru a Savio skimmer with one filter pad in
it. Savio has only been running for the last month. Pond is stocked
with 9 Goldfish (3 are babies about 3" long, other 6 range from 6" up
to 9"). I only feed the fish occasionally (maybe once a week). Pond
has been up and running since early May and I can only see down about
10" due to brown algae. Getting ready to install my biofilter in the
next few days. Any suggestions?

Sue W

Lowering pH
 

Nedra,
Actually both you and Lee agree that I should keep up with the baking
soda. So by your calculations I can add 1& 1/2 cups for my pond and
still be safe for the fish. OK, I will do that 3 days running,
between the rain drops (actually torrents & lightning strikes).

Lee,
Basically it's brown water that gets worse when stirred by rain, I can
only see down about 8" maybe 10" into the pond. The liner, edges of
the leaves and stems get covered with the brown stuff. The filter
gets clogged in a few days and we need to keep cleaning it. It looks
like dirty bropwn water, but the pond guy around here says its brown
algae.

Doesn't the waterfall do enough to add oxygen to the water, it comes
in at a pretty good rate from the stream? I never see the fish up top
looking for air. They do occasionally swim thru the waterfall. Had
one in the skimmer yesterday, got it out and it seems to be OK, anyway
to stop that happening again?

Will Get the biofilter up and running and then just wait it out. It
would be so nice to be able to see my fish where ever they are!

Should I be doing 25% water changes in the pond at this point? I used
to do it in the barrel garden, but I'm not sure if it would do any
good here or just slow up the process of balancing.

Thanks, Sue W

"Nedra" wrote in message rthlink.net...
Rod told me to add 1 cup of baking soda for every 1,000
gallons of water. That is what I've been doing all year!
I add the baking soda for three days running. Then wait
until we have lots of rain. Go thru the whole process again.
I have a pond full of Koi and goldfish..... no one has been
hurt yet.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

Lowering pH
 

3 months is still a new pond, and my experience is that they have wild
swings. It's not good, but they do. The limestone (if indeed you have it in
the pond) should not be a problem: it wants a pH of around 8. Above 8, and
it just sits there. Below 8, and it slowly dissolves. But it's not a radical
change. A gradual change in pH and KH is more desireable than an abrupt
change. But you're correct: if it's already doing that anyway, what's the
harm? Just get it in there and hope it starts to work. When I first dealt
with "new pond syndrome", it took several weeks to settle down and find its
median. Somewhere on another post I answered I mentioned the change of pH
between AM and PM, linking it to the plants, reverse osmosis and all that
stuff. CO2 is acid, which will drive pH down. In the day, the plants produce
O2, driving the pH up. Baking Soda will give you enough buffer in the KH to
hold against the CO2 enforced drop. You mention below that you also have an
airstone going, which is good: it helps to provide the oxygen that the fish
need in the higher water temps, and it helps to counterbalance the CO2 that
the plants put out at night. For what its worth, I keep my KH ~ 200-225. At
that range, the water/pH doesn't have much of a choice but to stabilize. And
filters (mine is a bead type, but ALL filters) need the carbonate to feed
the bio-bugs, which means the filter works more efficiently. It buffers
against acid rain. It's a good thing. The fish need stability in the pH. Go
for it.

Lee


"Jeff & Kathy Brown" wrote in message
...
Thanks, Lee for the advice. No to well water. This has been frustrating
for me because I've never had a pH/KH problem with any of our other ponds.
This is a 3 month old pond in full sunlight. And when I say full.....I
mean
at least 9 hours of sun. We have a living gravel filter and lots of
plants.
My ongoing fights have been getting enough surface shade, using plants,
and
the pH/KH. We used a different stone for couping and my guess is that it
is
full of limestone (Laurel mountain stone). The pH this morning was 7.7 at
83o. Right now (3:45) it is 9.1 at 89o. The pond is 2400 gal. with a
3/4HP
pump and because of water temp., I've added an air diffuser in the
farthest
corner. During the hottest time of the day, the fish either have
disappeared in the hornwort in the deepest part of the pond or are riding
the current from the waterfall. As soon as the sun gets off the pond,
they
all come out to stretch their fins.
Something I don't understand is....Nedra mentioned that Rod recommended
adding the BS over a three day period. I'm assuming that is for a gradual
decrease/increase of the pH. If the fish are going thru a pH swing, like
my
situation, then why hassle with a gradual change, why not get the sucker
lowered/increased over the course of a day? It couldn't be any worse then
what they are going thru, anyway. Thanks again.
Kathy
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Kathy, as Theron stated, Baking Soda is strange inasmuch as it will both
raise and lower pH to the 8.2-8.4 range. It will also raise your KH to a
more respectable number, which will add the buffering you need to
protect
against pH crashes in heavy rains.

Are you by any chance on well water?

By the way, 9 is "getting" high, but is still a safe and respectable
level.
Don't lose any sleep over it: your fish and plants will do just fine.

Lee

"Jeff & Kathy Brown" wrote in message
...
What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering
at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.
Kathy

Lowering pH
 

Where might you be near the "phosphate mines"? I'm in Bartow.

WLW

On 28 Jul 2003 09:29:24 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Sue, you don't need to tell me about the rain: it *tries" to screw with my
water chemistry, too. When the rain comes from "inland" over the phosphate
mines, I've had my KH drop by 80 points in a few hours. But you've got a few
problems going on he new pond, heavy rain, and that (expletive deleted)
algae.

Lowering pH
 

Hey Weldon! Land O' Lakes . . . the rain coming from your direction is
REALLY acid - if it hasn't rained in a while (like during the drought), I've
tested the pH at 4.7! That will really knock the stuffing out of the pond's
pH, especially if you get a couple of inches of it!!

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
...
Where might you be near the "phosphate mines"? I'm in Bartow.

WLW

On 28 Jul 2003 09:29:24 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Sue, you don't need to tell me about the rain: it *tries" to screw with
my
water chemistry, too. When the rain comes from "inland" over the
phosphate
mines, I've had my KH drop by 80 points in a few hours. But you've got a
few
problems going on he new pond, heavy rain, and that (expletive
deleted)
algae.

Lowering pH
 

Sue: Yes, the waterfall adds oxygen to the pond, depending on the drop. I
have 3 waterfalls, but the 2 that enter the pond are only a shallow drop,
and don't add much in the way of surface disturbance. If you have a drop of
18" or so, you may be OK. However, extra O2 is *never* a bad idea. I'd place
the airstone about 2/3 of the way from the waterfall: the airstone will
ensure that the far end of the pond also is properly aerated.

Your "brown algae" doesn't "quite" sound normal. New ponds usually grow nice
green stuff, not brown stuff. Especially brown stuff that breaks loose and
clogs the filter. Do you have any Koi Clay? Among its many benefits, it
also acts as a floculant: it gathers the stuff floating in the water column
and takes it to the bottom, leaving you with clear water. Considering that
your water is pretty clouded, if you have some, I'd mix about 1/2 cup in a
bucket of pond water, mix it up to disolve it, and pour it around the pond
edges. Try to get it mixed in with the water. It will turn your pond gray
for a few hours, but should clear over night. It may help, but it definitely
won't hurt. Another thing you could try: replace your skimmer mat with a
lingerie bag stuffed with netting, the kind you use for crafts (like coarse
bridal veil). It will catch a lot of the "fines" that are going through it,
which will also help clear your water. BE FOREWARNED: I have to clean mine
twice a day, but my water's gin clear! Just take the bag somewhere where you
can blast the blazes out of it with a water hose, then plunk it back in. If
you've got what I think you have (cyanobacteria), it will be an on-going
effort until the water cools again. It works in cycles; I'm on my third
since Spring.

As far as fish in the skimmer: I've got to tackle that one myself this
weekend. My fish don't get trapped, but the go in looking for food and get
stuck. I'm constantly finding scales they ripped off trying to get back out.
The problem is, you can put anything over it that will block the water flow.
But it has to be large enough to keep the fish out. But as long as they
don't get sucked against the water intake, they'll be ok.

Lee


"Sue Walsh" wrote in message
om...
Nedra,
Actually both you and Lee agree that I should keep up with the baking
soda. So by your calculations I can add 1& 1/2 cups for my pond and
still be safe for the fish. OK, I will do that 3 days running,
between the rain drops (actually torrents & lightning strikes).

Lee,
Basically it's brown water that gets worse when stirred by rain, I can
only see down about 8" maybe 10" into the pond. The liner, edges of
the leaves and stems get covered with the brown stuff. The filter
gets clogged in a few days and we need to keep cleaning it. It looks
like dirty bropwn water, but the pond guy around here says its brown
algae.

Doesn't the waterfall do enough to add oxygen to the water, it comes
in at a pretty good rate from the stream? I never see the fish up top
looking for air. They do occasionally swim thru the waterfall. Had
one in the skimmer yesterday, got it out and it seems to be OK, anyway
to stop that happening again?

Will Get the biofilter up and running and then just wait it out. It
would be so nice to be able to see my fish where ever they are!

Should I be doing 25% water changes in the pond at this point? I used
to do it in the barrel garden, but I'm not sure if it would do any
good here or just slow up the process of balancing.

Thanks, Sue W

Lowering pH
 

Hmmmmm, guess I'll start checking the pH of rain water.

I did notice a good drop in pH back when we were getting all that rain
- not much lately - rain that is.

Figured that was from the normal absorbtion of CO2.

You may be nearer one of the "bad" phosphate plants.


On 29 Jul 2003 07:50:17 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Hey Weldon! Land O' Lakes . . . the rain coming from your direction is
REALLY acid - if it hasn't rained in a while (like during the drought), I've
tested the pH at 4.7! That will really knock the stuffing out of the pond's
pH, especially if you get a couple of inches of it!!

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Where might you be near the "phosphate mines"? I'm in Bartow.

Lowering pH
 

Get your KH up and you will buffer the pH automatically. One day not long
ago, we had 4" of rain in 23 minutes. It dropped my KH by 80 points, but the
pH held solid.

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
...
Hmmmmm, guess I'll start checking the pH of rain water.

I did notice a good drop in pH back when we were getting all that rain
- not much lately - rain that is.

Figured that was from the normal absorbtion of CO2.

You may be nearer one of the "bad" phosphate plants.


On 29 Jul 2003 07:50:17 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Hey Weldon! Land O' Lakes . . . the rain coming from your direction is
REALLY acid - if it hasn't rained in a while (like during the drought),
I've
tested the pH at 4.7! That will really knock the stuffing out of the
pond's
pH, especially if you get a couple of inches of it!!

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Where might you be near the "phosphate mines"? I'm in Bartow.

Lowering pH
 

So you try to keep your KH in what range?

And you do this with Sodium Bicarbonate?

Can you add too much bicarb?

I ask these questions because it seems every time I put something in
my pond, the lily pads get soft spots or something.

It may be Muriate of Potash that causes this problem - I stopped using
it for the present.


On 29 Jul 2003 10:11:29 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Get your KH up and you will buffer the pH automatically. One day not long
ago, we had 4" of rain in 23 minutes. It dropped my KH by 80 points, but the
pH held solid.

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Hmmmmm, guess I'll start checking the pH of rain water.

I did notice a good drop in pH back when we were getting all that rain
- not much lately - rain that is.

Figured that was from the normal absorbtion of CO2.

You may be nearer one of the "bad" phosphate plants.


On 29 Jul 2003 07:50:17 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Hey Weldon! Land O' Lakes . . . the rain coming from your direction is
REALLY acid - if it hasn't rained in a while (like during the drought),
I've
tested the pH at 4.7! That will really knock the stuffing out of the
pond's
pH, especially if you get a couple of inches of it!!

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Where might you be near the "phosphate mines"? I'm in Bartow.

Lowering pH
 

I have a bead filter and a very heavy fish load, which is a bad combination
for KH. A bead filter isn't "happy" unless the KH is over 200; I keep mine
(basically) in the 11-13 drop range, which is about 200-230 ppm. You can
keep a stable pH at 8.3 (give or take a tenth!) with KH in the 150 range,
and still have enough wiggle room for rains. Just check the KH after a good
rain and bring the KH back up.

Use regular baking soda (sodium bicarbonate), nothing fancy. You can get the
generic stuff at the grocery store and it works just as good as Arm and
Hammer. I won't say that you "can't" add too much, but the folks that import
fish and are even more overstocked than *I* am routinely keep their KH at
400-500 to avoid crashes. It should have no affect on your lilies
whatsoever. For that matter, the potash should have made the plants
stronger, not weaker. Lily pads don't last much longer than 2 weeks or so
anyway, depending on the "breed" of lily. Some last a goodly amount of time,
and others are prolific, but short-lived.

BTW, add about a cup per 1000 gallons of baking soda to your pond and
measure the difference and adjust as necessary. Using that formula, I can
raise my KH by one drop. If you have a skimmer box, you can just drop the
whole cup in and walk away, but you must keep that concentration away from
the fish. If you don't have a filter or something away from them, mix the BS
in a bucket of pond water and splash it around the pond.

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
...
So you try to keep your KH in what range?

And you do this with Sodium Bicarbonate?

Can you add too much bicarb?

I ask these questions because it seems every time I put something in
my pond, the lily pads get soft spots or something.

It may be Muriate of Potash that causes this problem - I stopped using
it for the present.


On 29 Jul 2003 10:11:29 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Get your KH up and you will buffer the pH automatically. One day not long
ago, we had 4" of rain in 23 minutes. It dropped my KH by 80 points, but
the
pH held solid.

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Hmmmmm, guess I'll start checking the pH of rain water.

I did notice a good drop in pH back when we were getting all that rain
- not much lately - rain that is.

Figured that was from the normal absorbtion of CO2.

You may be nearer one of the "bad" phosphate plants.


On 29 Jul 2003 07:50:17 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Hey Weldon! Land O' Lakes . . . the rain coming from your direction is
REALLY acid - if it hasn't rained in a while (like during the
drought),
I've
tested the pH at 4.7! That will really knock the stuffing out of the
pond's
pH, especially if you get a couple of inches of it!!

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Where might you be near the "phosphate mines"? I'm in Bartow.

Lowering pH
 

Thanks for the info.


On 29 Jul 2003 15:26:34 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

I have a bead filter and a very heavy fish load, which is a bad combination
for KH. A bead filter isn't "happy" unless the KH is over 200; I keep mine
(basically) in the 11-13 drop range, which is about 200-230 ppm. You can
keep a stable pH at 8.3 (give or take a tenth!) with KH in the 150 range,
and still have enough wiggle room for rains. Just check the KH after a good
rain and bring the KH back up.

Use regular baking soda (sodium bicarbonate), nothing fancy. You can get the
generic stuff at the grocery store and it works just as good as Arm and
Hammer. I won't say that you "can't" add too much, but the folks that import
fish and are even more overstocked than *I* am routinely keep their KH at
400-500 to avoid crashes. It should have no affect on your lilies
whatsoever. For that matter, the potash should have made the plants
stronger, not weaker. Lily pads don't last much longer than 2 weeks or so
anyway, depending on the "breed" of lily. Some last a goodly amount of time,
and others are prolific, but short-lived.

BTW, add about a cup per 1000 gallons of baking soda to your pond and
measure the difference and adjust as necessary. Using that formula, I can
raise my KH by one drop. If you have a skimmer box, you can just drop the
whole cup in and walk away, but you must keep that concentration away from
the fish. If you don't have a filter or something away from them, mix the BS
in a bucket of pond water and splash it around the pond.

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
So you try to keep your KH in what range?

And you do this with Sodium Bicarbonate?

Can you add too much bicarb?

I ask these questions because it seems every time I put something in
my pond, the lily pads get soft spots or something.

It may be Muriate of Potash that causes this problem - I stopped using
it for the present.


On 29 Jul 2003 10:11:29 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Get your KH up and you will buffer the pH automatically. One day not long
ago, we had 4" of rain in 23 minutes. It dropped my KH by 80 points, but
the
pH held solid.

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Hmmmmm, guess I'll start checking the pH of rain water.

I did notice a good drop in pH back when we were getting all that rain
- not much lately - rain that is.

Figured that was from the normal absorbtion of CO2.

You may be nearer one of the "bad" phosphate plants.


On 29 Jul 2003 07:50:17 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Hey Weldon! Land O' Lakes . . . the rain coming from your direction is
REALLY acid - if it hasn't rained in a while (like during the
drought),
I've
tested the pH at 4.7! That will really knock the stuffing out of the
pond's
pH, especially if you get a couple of inches of it!!

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Where might you be near the "phosphate mines"? I'm in Bartow.

Lowering pH
 

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ...
Sue: Yes, the waterfall adds oxygen to the pond, depending on the drop.
If you have a drop of 18" or so, you may be OK.

Actually, the waterfall is two tiered from the head pool into the
stream with each drop about 9", then it travels the lenght of the
stream 22', then it drops into the pond about 12". How big of an
airstone are you talking, in the barrel all I had was a walnut sized
one. Where do you get bigger ones? What type(size?) of air pump do
you need to run the size you are recommending?


I'd place the airstone about 2/3 of the way from the waterfall: the airstone
will ensure that the far end of the pond also is properly aerated.

I have a water spouting crane which leaks so badly that it can't be
used. It is at that 2/3 locations that you referred to. I put it
there to make sure water moved all around the pond, no dead spots. If
I can get it fixed would that do the job for the extra oxygen?


Your "brown algae" doesn't "quite" sound normal. New ponds usually grow nice
green stuff, not brown stuff. Especially brown stuff that breaks loose and
clogs the filter.

It's like loose silt, really doesn't look like algae...


Do you have any Koi Clay?

No, on the Koi Clay. Where do we get it around here? Tampa, Hernando
or Pasco county or on the internet?


replace your skimmer mat with a lingerie bag stuffed with netting, the kind
you use for crafts (like coarse bridal veil).

This I can do easily.


If you've got what I think you have (cyanobacteria), it will be an on-going
effort until the water cools again. It works in cycles; I'm on my third
since Spring.

cyanobacteria?? I"ll have to look that up as I've never heard of that
one, but that's par for the course, remember when I first filled the
pond back in January I had red algae. Drained and redug it since then
and glad it didn't appear when we refilled in May.


Thanks Lee for all the good info...Sue W

Lowering pH
 

If you don't have Aquatic Ecosystem's catalog, you NEED it G! I can (and
have!) spend *hours* looking through it. They have a pretty extensive
website, but it's a little hard to navigate. However, you can order the
catalog from the http://www.aquaticeco.com You can find the airstones,
pumps, and more stuff than you ever thought existed! They're over there
around Apopka, so even "regular" UPS is "next-day" delivery for us'ns here
in FL.

Your water-spouting crane would help, but it's not as efficient as the
airstone(s). It just *looks* nicer!

If I remember during my search for info, there are over 40,000 different
species of algae. I think at one time or another, most of them have found
their way to my pond (long sigh . . .). And it's very difficult to get rid
of: even dumping the pond and scrubbing everything doesn't get rid of it
all. It hides in the plants, on your rock work, EVERYwhere. And all it needs
is a few pieces to reestablish itself. That brownish, olive-green silty
stuff could still be cyanobacteria. It comes in multiple forms, too. BTW,
I've never heard of red algae except for the blooms in the Gulf, which are
usually deadly. There's a fresh water version of it, too??? Sheesh . . .

I've never been able to find Koi Clay locally. No one carries it. But get
ahold of Gene Winstead at http://www.koivillage.com and he'll get some out
to you. Check out his site (both commercial and personal): he has a lot of
info.

Lee




"Sue Walsh" wrote in message
om...
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Sue: Yes, the waterfall adds oxygen to the pond, depending on the drop.
If you have a drop of 18" or so, you may be OK.

Actually, the waterfall is two tiered from the head pool into the
stream with each drop about 9", then it travels the lenght of the
stream 22', then it drops into the pond about 12". How big of an
airstone are you talking, in the barrel all I had was a walnut sized
one. Where do you get bigger ones? What type(size?) of air pump do
you need to run the size you are recommending?


I'd place the airstone about 2/3 of the way from the waterfall: the
airstone
will ensure that the far end of the pond also is properly aerated.

I have a water spouting crane which leaks so badly that it can't be
used. It is at that 2/3 locations that you referred to. I put it
there to make sure water moved all around the pond, no dead spots. If
I can get it fixed would that do the job for the extra oxygen?


Your "brown algae" doesn't "quite" sound normal. New ponds usually grow
nice
green stuff, not brown stuff. Especially brown stuff that breaks loose
and
clogs the filter.

It's like loose silt, really doesn't look like algae...


Do you have any Koi Clay?

No, on the Koi Clay. Where do we get it around here? Tampa, Hernando
or Pasco county or on the internet?


replace your skimmer mat with a lingerie bag stuffed with netting, the
kind
you use for crafts (like coarse bridal veil).

This I can do easily.


If you've got what I think you have (cyanobacteria), it will be an
on-going
effort until the water cools again. It works in cycles; I'm on my third
since Spring.

cyanobacteria?? I"ll have to look that up as I've never heard of that
one, but that's par for the course, remember when I first filled the
pond back in January I had red algae. Drained and redug it since then
and glad it didn't appear when we refilled in May.


Thanks Lee for all the good info...Sue W