What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.
Kathy

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:52:20 -0400, "Jeff & Kathy Brown"
wrote:

What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.

HCl, (hydrochloric or muriatic acid) is fine. Follow instructions carefully.
This stuff will kill fish and plants instantly if not diluted properly.

Bob

Bob, isn't the KH low though? I know baking soda will
raise the KH -and pH will stablize at 8.4 - but I have no
idea what baking soda will do to lower the pH. Seems
like the buffering should also be addressed.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Bob Adkins" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:52:20 -0400, "Jeff & Kathy Brown"
wrote:

What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.

HCl, (hydrochloric or muriatic acid) is fine. Follow instructions
carefully.
This stuff will kill fish and plants instantly if not diluted properly.

Bob

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:58:17 GMT, "Nedra"
wrote:

Bob, isn't the KH low though? I know baking soda will
raise the KH -and pH will stablize at 8.4 - but I have no
idea what baking soda will do to lower the pH. Seems
like the buffering should also be addressed.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Bob Adkins" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:52:20 -0400, "Jeff & Kathy Brown"
wrote:

What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.

HCl, (hydrochloric or muriatic acid) is fine. Follow instructions
carefully.
This stuff will kill fish and plants instantly if not diluted properly.

Bob




Baking Soda will also lower the Ph to 8.4. Its strange but it will
raise it if its low, and lower it if its high.

Theron

Theron wrote in message . ..
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:58:17 GMT, "Nedra"
wrote:

Bob, isn't the KH low though? I know baking soda will
raise the KH -and pH will stablize at 8.4 - but I have no
idea what baking soda will do to lower the pH. Seems
like the buffering should also be addressed.

Nedra

Baking Soda will also lower the Ph to 8.4. Its strange but it will
raise it if its low, and lower it if its high.

Theron

I have tried to stabilize my KH/GH/PH for a 10 day straight period I
by added baking soda and limestone every day in the amounts that Rod
recommended.
(6oz baking soda + 1 1/2 oz epsom salt + 6 oz pelletized limestone
daily to raise KH/GH each one degree daily. He recommened this slow
raise due to fish in pond).

Note: I was only able to find the one type of limestone here.

It hasn't worked. I think because of all the rain we get here in
Florida (we have had rain every afternoon for at least a month now).
I finally gave up. Any ideas on how to overcome the KH/PH flux with
all this rain?

Last reading were KH 180, GH 150, but PH bounces from 7.8 AM to 9+
late afternoon. I was not able to get either the KH or GH any higher.

Pond is in full sun so heat is also a factor as water gets to high
80's. I'm running a 22' stream into 1650 gallon pond stocked with 70
bunches of anachris, a few reed plants, a half dozen iris and dozen
water lilies which right now are covering about 1/2 the surface. Pump
is a 3600 pondmaster going thru a Savio skimmer with one filter pad in
it. Savio has only been running for the last month. Pond is stocked
with 9 Goldfish (3 are babies about 3" long, other 6 range from 6" up
to 9"). I only feed the fish occasionally (maybe once a week). Pond
has been up and running since early May and I can only see down about
10" due to brown algae. Getting ready to install my biofilter in the
next few days. Any suggestions?

Sue W

Sue, you don't need to tell me about the rain: it *tries" to screw with my
water chemistry, too. When the rain comes from "inland" over the phosphate
mines, I've had my KH drop by 80 points in a few hours. But you've got a few
problems going on he new pond, heavy rain, and that (expletive deleted)
algae.

a. At this point, I'd stop with the epsom salts and lime, as you're GH is
getting high. Don't add any more until your GH drops by 50 points or so. I'd
try to keep it in the 100-125 range.

b. Keep adding the baking soda. I keep my KH in the 11-13 drop range
(~200 to 230). I don't even test my pH any more unless I suspect a problem,
because I know that my pH will be 8.2 AM and 8.4 PM, rock solid.

BUT. . . your pond hasn't stabilized yet. It's still new. So until it
stabilizes, you need to check the pH also, otherwise you won't know what's
going on.

c. You say "brown algae" - is it that stuff that floats to the top during
the day and drops back down at night? If so, welcome to the world of
cyanobacteria. I finally sent samples of my algae to a lab for diagnosis.
This will be a whole OTHER topic of conversation! But let me know and we can
work on that, too.

Even if it's just plain ol' algae, it's a problem. At night, plants
(all those potted ones you have and the algae) reverse photosynthesis and
use up oxygen (instead of creating it, like they do during the day), and
release CO2 (carbon dioxide), which is acid. That drops your pH. During the
day, the plants create O2, which raises your pH. So, you have a yo-yo effect
going here. Obviously, one of the best things you could do towards
stabilizing the pH would be to get the algae problem under control, which is
easier said than done. However, in the meantime, I suggest adding air to
your pond with airstones or a good air manifold. It will serve a two-fold
purpose: a) our water temps are HIGH during the day, and warm water carries
less oxygen than cooler water, so it will make the fish more comfortable;
and b) it will keep the oxygen levels higher at night, and reduce the pH
swing. Besides, my fish like to swim through the bubbles: I think it
tickles!

Let me know if there's anything else I can help with.

Lee





"Sue Walsh" wrote in message
om...
Theron wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:58:17 GMT, "Nedra"
wrote:

Bob, isn't the KH low though? I know baking soda will
raise the KH -and pH will stablize at 8.4 - but I have no
idea what baking soda will do to lower the pH. Seems
like the buffering should also be addressed.

Nedra

Baking Soda will also lower the Ph to 8.4. Its strange but it will
raise it if its low, and lower it if its high.

Theron

I have tried to stabilize my KH/GH/PH for a 10 day straight period I
by added baking soda and limestone every day in the amounts that Rod
recommended.
(6oz baking soda + 1 1/2 oz epsom salt + 6 oz pelletized limestone
daily to raise KH/GH each one degree daily. He recommened this slow
raise due to fish in pond).

Note: I was only able to find the one type of limestone here.

It hasn't worked. I think because of all the rain we get here in
Florida (we have had rain every afternoon for at least a month now).
I finally gave up. Any ideas on how to overcome the KH/PH flux with
all this rain?

Last reading were KH 180, GH 150, but PH bounces from 7.8 AM to 9+
late afternoon. I was not able to get either the KH or GH any higher.

Pond is in full sun so heat is also a factor as water gets to high
80's. I'm running a 22' stream into 1650 gallon pond stocked with 70
bunches of anachris, a few reed plants, a half dozen iris and dozen
water lilies which right now are covering about 1/2 the surface. Pump
is a 3600 pondmaster going thru a Savio skimmer with one filter pad in
it. Savio has only been running for the last month. Pond is stocked
with 9 Goldfish (3 are babies about 3" long, other 6 range from 6" up
to 9"). I only feed the fish occasionally (maybe once a week). Pond
has been up and running since early May and I can only see down about
10" due to brown algae. Getting ready to install my biofilter in the
next few days. Any suggestions?

Sue W

Kathy, as Theron stated, Baking Soda is strange inasmuch as it will both
raise and lower pH to the 8.2-8.4 range. It will also raise your KH to a
more respectable number, which will add the buffering you need to protect
against pH crashes in heavy rains.

Are you by any chance on well water?

By the way, 9 is "getting" high, but is still a safe and respectable level.
Don't lose any sleep over it: your fish and plants will do just fine.

Lee

"Jeff & Kathy Brown" wrote in message
...
What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.
Kathy

Rod told me to add 1 cup of baking soda for every 1,000
gallons of water. That is what I've been doing all year!
I add the baking soda for three days running. Then wait
until we have lots of rain. Go thru the whole process again.
I have a pond full of Koi and goldfish..... no one has been
hurt yet.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Sue Walsh" wrote in message
om...
Theron wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:58:17 GMT, "Nedra"
wrote:

Bob, isn't the KH low though? I know baking soda will
raise the KH -and pH will stablize at 8.4 - but I have no
idea what baking soda will do to lower the pH. Seems
like the buffering should also be addressed.

Nedra

Baking Soda will also lower the Ph to 8.4. Its strange but it will
raise it if its low, and lower it if its high.

Theron

I have tried to stabilize my KH/GH/PH for a 10 day straight period I
by added baking soda and limestone every day in the amounts that Rod
recommended.
(6oz baking soda + 1 1/2 oz epsom salt + 6 oz pelletized limestone
daily to raise KH/GH each one degree daily. He recommened this slow
raise due to fish in pond).

Note: I was only able to find the one type of limestone here.

It hasn't worked. I think because of all the rain we get here in
Florida (we have had rain every afternoon for at least a month now).
I finally gave up. Any ideas on how to overcome the KH/PH flux with
all this rain?

Last reading were KH 180, GH 150, but PH bounces from 7.8 AM to 9+
late afternoon. I was not able to get either the KH or GH any higher.

Pond is in full sun so heat is also a factor as water gets to high
80's. I'm running a 22' stream into 1650 gallon pond stocked with 70
bunches of anachris, a few reed plants, a half dozen iris and dozen
water lilies which right now are covering about 1/2 the surface. Pump
is a 3600 pondmaster going thru a Savio skimmer with one filter pad in
it. Savio has only been running for the last month. Pond is stocked
with 9 Goldfish (3 are babies about 3" long, other 6 range from 6" up
to 9"). I only feed the fish occasionally (maybe once a week). Pond
has been up and running since early May and I can only see down about
10" due to brown algae. Getting ready to install my biofilter in the
next few days. Any suggestions?

Sue W

Thanks for the input Theron!

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118
"Theron" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:58:17 GMT, "Nedra"
wrote:

Bob, isn't the KH low though? I know baking soda will
raise the KH -and pH will stablize at 8.4 - but I have no
idea what baking soda will do to lower the pH. Seems
like the buffering should also be addressed.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Bob Adkins" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:52:20 -0400, "Jeff & Kathy Brown"
wrote:

What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering
at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.

HCl, (hydrochloric or muriatic acid) is fine. Follow instructions
carefully.
This stuff will kill fish and plants instantly if not diluted properly.

Bob




Baking Soda will also lower the Ph to 8.4. Its strange but it will
raise it if its low, and lower it if its high.

Theron

Baking Soda will also lower the Ph to 8.4. Its strange but it will
raise it if its low, and lower it if its high.

Yea, Ph is a funny thing. I used to deal with it in my labs, but didn't
understand all I knew about it.

Thing is, the higher the Ph, the more baking soda will be needed. It could
take a lot. Maybe it will give the fish fresh breath and white teeth.

"Thanks for the Memories"

Bob

Thanks, Lee for the advice. No to well water. This has been frustrating
for me because I've never had a pH/KH problem with any of our other ponds.
This is a 3 month old pond in full sunlight. And when I say full.....I mean
at least 9 hours of sun. We have a living gravel filter and lots of plants.
My ongoing fights have been getting enough surface shade, using plants, and
the pH/KH. We used a different stone for couping and my guess is that it is
full of limestone (Laurel mountain stone). The pH this morning was 7.7 at
83o. Right now (3:45) it is 9.1 at 89o. The pond is 2400 gal. with a 3/4HP
pump and because of water temp., I've added an air diffuser in the farthest
corner. During the hottest time of the day, the fish either have
disappeared in the hornwort in the deepest part of the pond or are riding
the current from the waterfall. As soon as the sun gets off the pond, they
all come out to stretch their fins.
Something I don't understand is....Nedra mentioned that Rod recommended
adding the BS over a three day period. I'm assuming that is for a gradual
decrease/increase of the pH. If the fish are going thru a pH swing, like my
situation, then why hassle with a gradual change, why not get the sucker
lowered/increased over the course of a day? It couldn't be any worse then
what they are going thru, anyway. Thanks again.
Kathy
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Kathy, as Theron stated, Baking Soda is strange inasmuch as it will both
raise and lower pH to the 8.2-8.4 range. It will also raise your KH to a
more respectable number, which will add the buffering you need to protect
against pH crashes in heavy rains.

Are you by any chance on well water?

By the way, 9 is "getting" high, but is still a safe and respectable
level.
Don't lose any sleep over it: your fish and plants will do just fine.

Lee

"Jeff & Kathy Brown" wrote in message
...
What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering
at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.
Kathy

I try to keep my KH up at a level similar to Lee's, and if it drops to about
6 or 8 drops, the pH is still rock solid, and I just dump in about 2/3 of a
10 pound box of baking soda in the 4000 gallon pond and 1/3 in the 2500
gallon pond. That is as close as I measure. I have to do this about once
or twice a month. Cups are too small, unless you are initially trying to
stabilize the pH, where you don't want to give a pH shock.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"Nedra" wrote in message
thlink.net...
Rod told me to add 1 cup of baking soda for every 1,000
gallons of water. That is what I've been doing all year!
I add the baking soda for three days running. Then wait
until we have lots of rain. Go thru the whole process again.
I have a pond full of Koi and goldfish..... no one has been
hurt yet.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Sue Walsh" wrote in message
om...
Theron wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:58:17 GMT, "Nedra"
wrote:

Bob, isn't the KH low though? I know baking soda will
raise the KH -and pH will stablize at 8.4 - but I have no
idea what baking soda will do to lower the pH. Seems
like the buffering should also be addressed.

Nedra

Baking Soda will also lower the Ph to 8.4. Its strange but it will
raise it if its low, and lower it if its high.

Theron

I have tried to stabilize my KH/GH/PH for a 10 day straight period I
by added baking soda and limestone every day in the amounts that Rod
recommended.
(6oz baking soda + 1 1/2 oz epsom salt + 6 oz pelletized limestone
daily to raise KH/GH each one degree daily. He recommened this slow
raise due to fish in pond).

Note: I was only able to find the one type of limestone here.

It hasn't worked. I think because of all the rain we get here in
Florida (we have had rain every afternoon for at least a month now).
I finally gave up. Any ideas on how to overcome the KH/PH flux with
all this rain?

Last reading were KH 180, GH 150, but PH bounces from 7.8 AM to 9+
late afternoon. I was not able to get either the KH or GH any higher.

Pond is in full sun so heat is also a factor as water gets to high
80's. I'm running a 22' stream into 1650 gallon pond stocked with 70
bunches of anachris, a few reed plants, a half dozen iris and dozen
water lilies which right now are covering about 1/2 the surface. Pump
is a 3600 pondmaster going thru a Savio skimmer with one filter pad in
it. Savio has only been running for the last month. Pond is stocked
with 9 Goldfish (3 are babies about 3" long, other 6 range from 6" up
to 9"). I only feed the fish occasionally (maybe once a week). Pond
has been up and running since early May and I can only see down about
10" due to brown algae. Getting ready to install my biofilter in the
next few days. Any suggestions?

Sue W

Nedra,
Actually both you and Lee agree that I should keep up with the baking
soda. So by your calculations I can add 1& 1/2 cups for my pond and
still be safe for the fish. OK, I will do that 3 days running,
between the rain drops (actually torrents & lightning strikes).

Lee,
Basically it's brown water that gets worse when stirred by rain, I can
only see down about 8" maybe 10" into the pond. The liner, edges of
the leaves and stems get covered with the brown stuff. The filter
gets clogged in a few days and we need to keep cleaning it. It looks
like dirty bropwn water, but the pond guy around here says its brown
algae.

Doesn't the waterfall do enough to add oxygen to the water, it comes
in at a pretty good rate from the stream? I never see the fish up top
looking for air. They do occasionally swim thru the waterfall. Had
one in the skimmer yesterday, got it out and it seems to be OK, anyway
to stop that happening again?

Will Get the biofilter up and running and then just wait it out. It
would be so nice to be able to see my fish where ever they are!

Should I be doing 25% water changes in the pond at this point? I used
to do it in the barrel garden, but I'm not sure if it would do any
good here or just slow up the process of balancing.

Thanks, Sue W

"Nedra" wrote in message rthlink.net...
Rod told me to add 1 cup of baking soda for every 1,000
gallons of water. That is what I've been doing all year!
I add the baking soda for three days running. Then wait
until we have lots of rain. Go thru the whole process again.
I have a pond full of Koi and goldfish..... no one has been
hurt yet.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

3 months is still a new pond, and my experience is that they have wild
swings. It's not good, but they do. The limestone (if indeed you have it in
the pond) should not be a problem: it wants a pH of around 8. Above 8, and
it just sits there. Below 8, and it slowly dissolves. But it's not a radical
change. A gradual change in pH and KH is more desireable than an abrupt
change. But you're correct: if it's already doing that anyway, what's the
harm? Just get it in there and hope it starts to work. When I first dealt
with "new pond syndrome", it took several weeks to settle down and find its
median. Somewhere on another post I answered I mentioned the change of pH
between AM and PM, linking it to the plants, reverse osmosis and all that
stuff. CO2 is acid, which will drive pH down. In the day, the plants produce
O2, driving the pH up. Baking Soda will give you enough buffer in the KH to
hold against the CO2 enforced drop. You mention below that you also have an
airstone going, which is good: it helps to provide the oxygen that the fish
need in the higher water temps, and it helps to counterbalance the CO2 that
the plants put out at night. For what its worth, I keep my KH ~ 200-225. At
that range, the water/pH doesn't have much of a choice but to stabilize. And
filters (mine is a bead type, but ALL filters) need the carbonate to feed
the bio-bugs, which means the filter works more efficiently. It buffers
against acid rain. It's a good thing. The fish need stability in the pH. Go
for it.

Lee


"Jeff & Kathy Brown" wrote in message
...
Thanks, Lee for the advice. No to well water. This has been frustrating
for me because I've never had a pH/KH problem with any of our other ponds.
This is a 3 month old pond in full sunlight. And when I say full.....I
mean
at least 9 hours of sun. We have a living gravel filter and lots of
plants.
My ongoing fights have been getting enough surface shade, using plants,
and
the pH/KH. We used a different stone for couping and my guess is that it
is
full of limestone (Laurel mountain stone). The pH this morning was 7.7 at
83o. Right now (3:45) it is 9.1 at 89o. The pond is 2400 gal. with a
3/4HP
pump and because of water temp., I've added an air diffuser in the
farthest
corner. During the hottest time of the day, the fish either have
disappeared in the hornwort in the deepest part of the pond or are riding
the current from the waterfall. As soon as the sun gets off the pond,
they
all come out to stretch their fins.
Something I don't understand is....Nedra mentioned that Rod recommended
adding the BS over a three day period. I'm assuming that is for a gradual
decrease/increase of the pH. If the fish are going thru a pH swing, like
my
situation, then why hassle with a gradual change, why not get the sucker
lowered/increased over the course of a day? It couldn't be any worse then
what they are going thru, anyway. Thanks again.
Kathy
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Kathy, as Theron stated, Baking Soda is strange inasmuch as it will both
raise and lower pH to the 8.2-8.4 range. It will also raise your KH to a
more respectable number, which will add the buffering you need to
protect
against pH crashes in heavy rains.

Are you by any chance on well water?

By the way, 9 is "getting" high, but is still a safe and respectable
level.
Don't lose any sleep over it: your fish and plants will do just fine.

Lee

"Jeff & Kathy Brown" wrote in message
...
What is the fastest, safest way to lower the pH. My pH is registering
at
9.01 with KH of 89.5. Go figure. Please advise...thanks.
Kathy

Where might you be near the "phosphate mines"? I'm in Bartow.

WLW

On 28 Jul 2003 09:29:24 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Sue, you don't need to tell me about the rain: it *tries" to screw with my
water chemistry, too. When the rain comes from "inland" over the phosphate
mines, I've had my KH drop by 80 points in a few hours. But you've got a few
problems going on he new pond, heavy rain, and that (expletive deleted)
algae.