Pump Confusion
 

Hello all,

I have purchased a pump with a rating that does not make any sense at all
(trusted the knowlegable sales staff). I am trying to figure out my cost per
month but the only specification provided is output watts. Now that I have
compared it to the next pump size down, I am really confused. I don't want to
install it if a smaller one will do the job.

Here are the specs:

My pump:
Rated 3800 GPH
Output Watts: 736

Next pump down:
Rated 3300 GPH
Output Watts: 330

After reading the specs I called the dealer and asked the average monthly cost
to run each pump. They replied that the smaller pump will cost about $28.00 and
the other (the one I have) about $64.00. There is only a 500 GPH difference! Do
they know what they are talking about?

After searching the newsgroups, I have found a lot of similar questions but no
difinitive answers (at least none that I understand).
Why don't the pump companies offer a table of actual killowats used per feet of
head?. Its the answer everyone seems to be after.

Can anyone help me sort this out?

Additional Info: The pump is submersible, I have a 2' head, and a bio
filter/falls.

Thanks,

Steve

Pump Confusion
 

Hi from Norway , to figure how much your Pump electrical expenses will cost
its a easy calculation, lets say 1KW costs 0.20 USD ( i am from norway no
idea how much the actual cost is elsewhere) however ,, if a pump takes 100W
the consumption will be 1000w in 10 hours so will be like USD 0.50 for day

You state that one pump use 736 watt and the other 330. So the sellers
statment is propably accurate , however why yours uses so much more i
cannot answer but i guess it can pump your wather much higher before you
will notise a decrease in GPH.


Some pumps are stated as HIGH Pressure pumps and would be using more Wattage
than the GPH rating they give .

Maybe not a answer you was looking for but its my Humble 2cents.

Regards
Runi S.
"RROLD1" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I have purchased a pump with a rating that does not make any sense at all
(trusted the knowlegable sales staff). I am trying to figure out my cost
per
month but the only specification provided is output watts. Now that I have
compared it to the next pump size down, I am really confused. I don't want
to
install it if a smaller one will do the job.

Here are the specs:

My pump:
Rated 3800 GPH
Output Watts: 736

Next pump down:
Rated 3300 GPH
Output Watts: 330

After reading the specs I called the dealer and asked the average monthly
cost
to run each pump. They replied that the smaller pump will cost about
$28.00 and
the other (the one I have) about $64.00. There is only a 500 GPH
difference! Do
they know what they are talking about?

After searching the newsgroups, I have found a lot of similar questions
but no
difinitive answers (at least none that I understand).
Why don't the pump companies offer a table of actual killowats used per
feet of
head?. Its the answer everyone seems to be after.

Can anyone help me sort this out?

Additional Info: The pump is submersible, I have a 2' head, and a bio
filter/falls.

Thanks,

Steve

Pump Confusion
 

RROLD1 wrote:

Hello all,

I have purchased a pump with a rating that does not make any sense at all
(trusted the knowlegable sales staff). I am trying to figure out my cost per
month but the only specification provided is output watts. Now that I have
compared it to the next pump size down, I am really confused. I don't want to
install it if a smaller one will do the job.

Here are the specs:

My pump:
Rated 3800 GPH
Output Watts: 736

736 watts = 6.13 mps @120 volts
736 watts = .74KW
if 1 KW of electricity costs you $0.118 (11.8 Cents)
..74kw x 0.118 = .087 cents/hour
..087 x 24hours = $2.09 / day
$2.09 x 365 days =$764.00 /year
$64.00/ month


Next pump down:
Rated 3300 GPH
Output Watts: 330

330watts = 2.75 amps @120 volts
330 watts = .33KW
if 1 KW of electricity costs you $0.118 (11.8 Cents)
..33kw x 0.118 = .039 cents/hour
..039 x 24hours = $0.93 / day
$0.93 x 365 days =$341.00 /year
$28.40/ month


Without showing all the calculations you would be paying 55% more money
for only a 13% increase in gallons per hour

After reading the specs I called the dealer and asked the average monthly cost
to run each pump. They replied that the smaller pump will cost about $28.00 and
the other (the one I have) about $64.00. There is only a 500 GPH difference! Do
they know what they are talking about?

According to the monthly electricity cost they quoted you cost per 1000
watts/ hour ( 1KWH ) is $0.118
$64.00/ month @ $0.118 /KWH
$28.00/ month @ $0.118 / KWH

Check you electric bill for your TOTAL cost per KWH.
Total cost = cost of generation + distribution + transmission
+transition charges
eg. my cost = .046060 + .001720 + .030290 + .006140 = $0.08421 / KWH

Without showing all the calculations you would be paying 55% more money
for only a 13% increase in gallons per hour

After searching the newsgroups, I have found a lot of similar questions but no
difinitive answers (at least none that I understand).
Why don't the pump companies offer a table of actual killowats used per feet of
head?. Its the answer everyone seems to be after.

The KW's basically stay the same. It's the GPH @_?_ feet: that they chart

Can anyone help me sort this out?

Additional Info: The pump is submersible, I have a 2' head, and a bio
filter/falls.

Your GPH @ 2' head will depend on the specs of the pump.

3300 GPH and 3800 GPH ratings are @ 0' of head (no piping on outlet)

What brand and models are the pumps?
I should be able to tell you your approximzte GPH @ 2'

Thanks,

Steve


Chagoi

Pump Confusion
 

Pump Confusion
 

RROLD1 wrote:

After searching the newsgroups, I have found a lot of similar questions but no
difinitive answers (at least none that I understand).
Why don't the pump companies offer a table of actual killowats used per feet
of head?. Its the answer everyone seems to be after.

I think many if not most do. Go to a couple of sites of companies that both
manufacture & sell pumps. You should find what you are looking for. Also,
very important : the cost of running the pump usually out weighs the cost of
the pump, so saving a hundred bucks on the purchase doesn't make sense if
all you get is an inefficient pump.


Joe



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Pump Confusion
 

Andrew Burgess wrote:

No. The wattage is a maximum value. Throttling the output, for example, will
reduce the power draw.

I've never heard that. I thought pumps all ran full out regardless if the
valve was open all the way or closed? Please elaborate.

Thanks

Joe



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http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Pump Confusion
 

No. The wattage is a maximum value. Throttling the output, for example, will
reduce the power draw.

I've never heard that. I thought pumps all ran full out regardless if the
valve was open all the way or closed? Please elaborate.

I don't have references handy, I'll look. I remember that for a centrifugal
pump the current draw is lowest when the output is closed, so the impeller just
spins in the water in the pump housing.

Pump Confusion
 

The brand of the pumps is "Steady Stream". The GPH on both drops about 200 GPH
at 2' head. I did find some info and think I may have put together the puzzle.

I saw where a 1/2 hp motor output is equal to about 730 watts (the pump I have)
and 1/4 HP at 315 watts. On a pump manufacturers site I saw REAL pump ratings(
I wish I bookmarked it as I visited many) . The closest pump was 1/4 hp
And their ratings let me figure that the pump would cost about $28.00 to run
per month. The paragraph precedding the pumps stated that the key was to
maximize the relationship between the pump and the motor without increasing
the HP to a point that it wastes energy. That may explain the higher wattage
pump without the expected higher output. I am going to exchange the pump for
the lower wattage unit and hope for the best. I guess I can always add a small
second pump if I want more flow when I am relaxing by the falls.

Since this is my first pond so I am full of questions. I have 24" fall from my
bio fall to the waterline. I want to maximize the water sound. Any pointers on
doing so? Will a series of 3-4" falls into small pools make more sound than two
8" falls? I know this is a wide open question. Any shared experiences would be
appreciated.

Thanks,

Steve

Pump Confusion
 

I'd like to add "Anne's corollary"(?) to Joe's statement!

Joe said [among other things], "Also, very important : the cost of running
the pump usually out weighs the cost of the pump......"

Anne's corollary: "The cost of the pump -- and of running the pump --
are miniscule to the money/time/effort you will eventually spend on your
pond."

And I'm only talking about moving bricks I already had & a few goldfish from
Petsmart, plus the odd "dog toy" (water hyacinth for the first 20 minutes I
owned them, then dog toys!)

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC





"joe" wrote in message
...
RROLD1 wrote:

After searching the newsgroups, I have found a lot of similar questions
but no
difinitive answers (at least none that I understand).
Why don't the pump companies offer a table of actual killowats used per
feet
of head?. Its the answer everyone seems to be after.

I think many if not most do. Go to a couple of sites of companies that
both
manufacture & sell pumps. You should find what you are looking for. Also,
very important : the cost of running the pump usually out weighs the cost
of
the pump, so saving a hundred bucks on the purchase doesn't make sense if
all you get is an inefficient pump.


Joe



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Pump Confusion
 

Sssssssshhhhhhh, Anne, he doesn't know this yet!


Anne Lurie wrote:

I'd like to add "Anne's corollary"(?) to Joe's statement!

Joe said [among other things], "Also, very important : the cost of running
the pump usually out weighs the cost of the pump......"

Anne's corollary: "The cost of the pump -- and of running the pump --
are miniscule to the money/time/effort you will eventually spend on your
pond."



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Pump Confusion
 

Andrew Burgess wrote in
:


No. The wattage is a maximum value. Throttling the output, for
example, will reduce the power draw.

I do not think this is true. Two elements, pressure and volume, influence
the power consumption of any pump. If you look at Mark's Standard
Handbook for Mechanical Engineers 14-22 thru 14-25 you will find the
formula for centrifugal pump output. Stripped of its more complicated
bits the formula shows that the power required, p = Q*H, where p = power,
Q=volume and H = head. Throttling reduces the volume output but increases
the internal pressure. Essentially throttling the pump has the same
effect within the pump of increasing the head.
AXO

Pump Confusion
 

" Since this is my first pond so I am full of questions. I have 24" fall
from my
bio fall to the waterline. I want to maximize the water sound. Any
pointers on
doing so? Will a series of 3-4" falls into small pools make more sound
than two
8" falls? I know this is a wide open question. Any shared experiences
would be
appreciated.

Thanks,

Steve

I think that one fall from up high will make more sound than the babbling
brook sounds of multiple small falls. The sound can also be increased by
making the falls deeper over the spillway, by making the spillway narrower.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

Pump Confusion
 

Take a look at this site, it shows may different pumps at head, amps, watts
etc.

I just bot a Danner 3600 from them as they were the best prices I found.

http://www.webbsonline.com/catalog/pumps/index.html

Karen
Zone 5
Ashland, OH
http://hometown.aol.com/kmam1/MyPond/MyPond.html
My Art Studio at
http://members.aol.com/kmmstudios/K....M.Studios.html
for email remove the extra extention

Pump Confusion
 

In article cgU2b.269286$o%2.122746@sccrnsc02, "RichToyBox"
writes:

The sound can also be increased by
making the falls deeper over the spillway, by making the spillway narrower.
--

and making it cave like behind the falls, so the sound echoes.

karen
Zone 5
Ashland, OH
http://hometown.aol.com/kmam1/MyPond/MyPond.html
My Art Studio at
http://members.aol.com/kmmstudios/K....M.Studios.html
for email remove the extra extention

Pump Confusion
 

In article , Axolotl
writes:

formula for centrifugal pump output.

I have a question about centrifugal pumps. Jan recommended putting the pump in
the filter, which would mean the pump is pulling water out of the pond not
pushing it into the filter. However, when reading the specs for my pump, it
says:
"Centrifugal pumps cannot pull water from a lower level. In order to start,
pump must be below water level and filled with water. Unless the ai can escape
from the outlet, the pump will not start."
So how do I put it in my filter?

Karen
Zone 5
Ashland, OH
http://hometown.aol.com/kmam1/MyPond/MyPond.html
My Art Studio at
http://members.aol.com/kmmstudios/K....M.Studios.html
for email remove the extra extention

Pump Confusion
 

Axolotl writes:

Andrew Burgess wrote in
:


No. The wattage is a maximum value. Throttling the output, for
example, will reduce the power draw.

I do not think this is true. Two elements, pressure and volume, influence
the power consumption of any pump. If you look at Mark's Standard
Handbook for Mechanical Engineers 14-22 thru 14-25 you will find the
formula for centrifugal pump output.

I looked for something like this on the web and was unsuccessful.
(I only own EE books ;-)

Stripped of its more complicated
bits the formula shows that the power required, p = Q*H, where p = power,
Q=volume and H = head. Throttling reduces the volume output but increases
the internal pressure. Essentially throttling the pump has the same
effect within the pump of increasing the head.

I cannot think of a refutation for this, so maybe I'm misremembering
the 'minimum power consumed at no output' thing.

Unless you've oversimplified and the relationship isn't linear? Aren't
head-flow curves non-linear?

I'm going to email my friend with the power meter right now and borrow
his meter and do some measurements...

Pump Confusion
 

I have a question about centrifugal pumps. Jan recommended putting the pump in
the filter, which would mean the pump is pulling water out of the pond not
pushing it into the filter.

No. It's pulling water out of the filter and pumping to the pond. The pond
to filter flow is by gravity.

Pump Confusion
 

There's a device at Radio Shack for like $30.00 that you plug stuff into and
it'll tell youi how much power something is drawing. It'll also count it as
time goes on. So you could plug your pump into it, let it run for a month,
look at your enegry bill to get the kilowatt per hour cost and figure it all
out. Here's the device on the net:

http://store.yahoo.com/ahernstore/p4400.html

Sam

"RROLD1" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I have purchased a pump with a rating that does not make any sense at all
(trusted the knowlegable sales staff). I am trying to figure out my cost
per
month but the only specification provided is output watts. Now that I have
compared it to the next pump size down, I am really confused. I don't want
to
install it if a smaller one will do the job.

Here are the specs:

My pump:
Rated 3800 GPH
Output Watts: 736

Next pump down:
Rated 3300 GPH
Output Watts: 330

After reading the specs I called the dealer and asked the average monthly
cost
to run each pump. They replied that the smaller pump will cost about
$28.00 and
the other (the one I have) about $64.00. There is only a 500 GPH
difference! Do
they know what they are talking about?

After searching the newsgroups, I have found a lot of similar questions
but no
difinitive answers (at least none that I understand).
Why don't the pump companies offer a table of actual killowats used per
feet of
head?. Its the answer everyone seems to be after.

Can anyone help me sort this out?

Additional Info: The pump is submersible, I have a 2' head, and a bio
filter/falls.

Thanks,

Steve

Pump Confusion
 

"Sam Hopkins" writes:

There's a device at Radio Shack for like $30.00 that you plug stuff into and
it'll tell youi how much power something is drawing. It'll also count it as
time goes on. So you could plug your pump into it, let it run for a month,
look at your enegry bill to get the kilowatt per hour cost and figure it all
out. Here's the device on the net:

http://store.yahoo.com/ahernstore/p4400.html

OK I ordered one. Thanks Sam! Easier then driving to my friends
to borrow his...

Pump Confusion
 

fyi ,,, P=U x I aka Watt = Voltage x Current ,,, measure how much Current
the pump is taking ,, and mutliply it with your voltage . For a 550 watts
pump the current should be mesured ~5 Amps on a 110 Vac leader.

However Measuing the Current is not going to be a easy task with that
instrument as you have to measure Current (Ampere) in serie with the Pump ,
there is however Ampere meters that you can simply clamp around the wire to
measure the Amps.

Best regards

Rune S.

"Andrew Burgess" wrote in message
...
"Sam Hopkins" writes:

There's a device at Radio Shack for like $30.00 that you plug stuff into
and
it'll tell youi how much power something is drawing. It'll also count it
as
time goes on. So you could plug your pump into it, let it run for a
month,
look at your enegry bill to get the kilowatt per hour cost and figure it
all
out. Here's the device on the net:

http://store.yahoo.com/ahernstore/p4400.html

OK I ordered one. Thanks Sam! Easier then driving to my friends
to borrow his...

Pump Confusion
 

Second thought this meter might be suited with that clamp to hang on the
wire =) Me bad ,, humble appologies.

R.stolen
"R.stol" wrote in message
...
fyi ,,, P=U x I aka Watt = Voltage x Current ,,, measure how much Current
the pump is taking ,, and mutliply it with your voltage . For a 550 watts
pump the current should be mesured ~5 Amps on a 110 Vac leader.

However Measuing the Current is not going to be a easy task with that
instrument as you have to measure Current (Ampere) in serie with the Pump
,
there is however Ampere meters that you can simply clamp around the wire
to
measure the Amps.

Best regards

Rune S.

"Andrew Burgess" wrote in message
...
"Sam Hopkins" writes:

There's a device at Radio Shack for like $30.00 that you plug stuff
into
and
it'll tell youi how much power something is drawing. It'll also count
it
as
time goes on. So you could plug your pump into it, let it run for a
month,
look at your enegry bill to get the kilowatt per hour cost and figure
it
all
out. Here's the device on the net:

http://store.yahoo.com/ahernstore/p4400.html

OK I ordered one. Thanks Sam! Easier then driving to my friends
to borrow his...

Pump Confusion
 

"R.stol" writes:

fyi ,,, P=U x I aka Watt = Voltage x Current

That's for DC. AC requires considering the power factor.

,,, measure how much Current
the pump is taking ,, and mutliply it with your voltage.

Times the power factor gives the power..

For a 550 watts
pump the current should be mesured ~5 Amps on a 110 Vac leader.

However Measuing the Current is not going to be a easy task with that
instrument as you have to measure Current (Ampere) in serie with the Pump ,
there is however Ampere meters that you can simply clamp around the wire to
measure the Amps.

It has a series resistor.

Pump Confusion
 

Yes, I have simplified the formula the original is
n=lQH/3960P US or n=lQh/270P metric.

Where
n = efficiency coefficient,
l (lambda) = specific gravity of the material being pumped for water this
is 1,
Q = the volume in gallons/minute or M3/h
H = the head or pressure in ft or meters
P = the power in BHP, 1 BHP = 746W (if I remember correctly).

As the formula has no exponents in it, I believe that it is linear.
Having taken one of my pond pumps apart I would guess that the value for
n is very low, probably not much above 0.1 and maybe even lower.
AXO