we still havent had a hard frost yet so the veggie filter is up and running. but the
temp of the water plummets so early that I been playing around with different ideas
to keep the temp up. I turn down the pump to the veggie filter whenever the air temp
is lower than 55o. turn it up full when it is warmer. I also bought a 500watt
heater from aquatic, may buy the 1000 watt as well. What I want to do is keep the
water temp up until Dec. and then let the fish go "dormant" and drop in the heaters
again in March so the fish are "down" for only 3 months instead of 6 months. and
when the temp comes up in march it STAYS up keeping their immune system working.
Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Ingrid, I just finished plugging in a 2 KW heater system into my pond, and
it seems to work very well for my 5000 ish gallons.

But personally I don't want to take the risk that with a cold spell the
heater can't cope and the temps start to hoover in the 10°C to 15°C
(aeromonas alley). So I let it drop to about 9 °C and plan to keep it
there all winter until March. Then it's all systems go to get over 15°C
ASAP.

The big advantage however is keeping my filter system up & running, as I'm
100% convinced that one should not stop filtering a koi pond. The bacteria
will survive, they will go dormant or perform at a very very low level, but
they will still be there when spring kicks in.

I just made a webpage about all this, but it's in Dutch. I'll translate it
however, it may (or may not) give you ideas.

Cheers,

Theo

One thing though: I have to recommend some isolation for the pond, as
otherwise you will just burn precious money. Even plastic will do, but
plastic with "air bubbles" (don't know the name in English) will do much
better.
schreef in bericht
...
we still havent had a hard frost yet so the veggie filter is up and
running. but the
temp of the water plummets so early that I been playing around with
different ideas
to keep the temp up. I turn down the pump to the veggie filter whenever
the air temp
is lower than 55o. turn it up full when it is warmer. I also bought a
500watt
heater from aquatic, may buy the 1000 watt as well. What I want to do is
keep the
water temp up until Dec. and then let the fish go "dormant" and drop in
the heaters
again in March so the fish are "down" for only 3 months instead of 6
months. and
when the temp comes up in march it STAYS up keeping their immune system
working.
Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

I create a lean-to covered with clear polyethylene, two layers, and a pool
solar cover, that looks like bubble wrap. This allows for some solar
heating of the pond, protects it from wind and evaporative cooling, and
makes a nice greenhouse for my tropical plants. I use the 1800 watt heaters
to try to keep the temperature in at 70 degrees, but during the coldest part
of January and February, the temperatures will drop into the low 60's. With
these temperatures, I have been able to keep tropical lilies blooming most
of the winter, lettuce and hyacinths sustain for next year, and taro grows
big. The lean-to by itself will keep the water near 50 degrees most of the
winter from the stored ground heat, solar heat, and the lack of evaporation.
I don't want my fish to be in the 50-60 range, and if the temperature
dropped into the 50's for more than a few days, I would unplug the heaters
and let the temperature fall. I agree with Ingrid that heat can be used to
keep the temperature up for a while, then allow the fish to go cold, when
winter finally gets here, and at the first sign of spring to bring them up
quickly. I think this can help control a lot of problems. Without a cover,
it takes a tremendous size heater to do anything for the temperature of the
pond. Hot pond, cool atmosphere, means fog, which is evaporation, which
gives off significant amounts of latent heat cooling the pond.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html



"Theo van Daele" wrote in message
...
Ingrid, I just finished plugging in a 2 KW heater system into my pond, and
it seems to work very well for my 5000 ish gallons.

But personally I don't want to take the risk that with a cold spell the
heater can't cope and the temps start to hoover in the 10°C to 15°C
(aeromonas alley). So I let it drop to about 9 °C and plan to keep it
there all winter until March. Then it's all systems go to get over 15°C
ASAP.

The big advantage however is keeping my filter system up & running, as I'm
100% convinced that one should not stop filtering a koi pond. The
bacteria
will survive, they will go dormant or perform at a very very low level,
but
they will still be there when spring kicks in.

I just made a webpage about all this, but it's in Dutch. I'll translate
it
however, it may (or may not) give you ideas.

Cheers,

Theo

One thing though: I have to recommend some isolation for the pond, as
otherwise you will just burn precious money. Even plastic will do, but
plastic with "air bubbles" (don't know the name in English) will do much
better.
schreef in bericht
...
we still havent had a hard frost yet so the veggie filter is up and
running. but the
temp of the water plummets so early that I been playing around with
different ideas
to keep the temp up. I turn down the pump to the veggie filter whenever
the air temp
is lower than 55o. turn it up full when it is warmer. I also bought a
500watt
heater from aquatic, may buy the 1000 watt as well. What I want to do
is
keep the
water temp up until Dec. and then let the fish go "dormant" and drop in
the heaters
again in March so the fish are "down" for only 3 months instead of 6
months. and
when the temp comes up in march it STAYS up keeping their immune system
working.
Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

I have the deep pond to surface ratio with a small footprint at the surface, only
1600 gallons... and the lean to greenhouse over it as well, but I do think I am
going to need the bubble wrap or a second layer right over the water. Evaporation
sucks the heat out for sure. This is the weekend I begin moving the tender plants
from the veggie filter to the basement under the lights. Then setting up the bucket
filter to run in tandem with the leftover veggie filter plants. And trashing the
rest. dont know how I will get it all done with all the other work going on in the
house! Ingrid

"RichToyBox" wrote:
I create a lean-to covered with clear polyethylene, two layers, and a pool
solar cover, that looks like bubble wrap. This allows for some solar
heating of the pond, protects it from wind and evaporative cooling, and
makes a nice greenhouse for my tropical plants. I use the 1800 watt heaters
to try to keep the temperature in at 70 degrees, but during the coldest part
of January and February, the temperatures will drop into the low 60's. With
these temperatures, I have been able to keep tropical lilies blooming most
of the winter, lettuce and hyacinths sustain for next year, and taro grows
big. The lean-to by itself will keep the water near 50 degrees most of the
winter from the stored ground heat, solar heat, and the lack of evaporation.
I don't want my fish to be in the 50-60 range, and if the temperature
dropped into the 50's for more than a few days, I would unplug the heaters
and let the temperature fall. I agree with Ingrid that heat can be used to
keep the temperature up for a while, then allow the fish to go cold, when
winter finally gets here, and at the first sign of spring to bring them up
quickly. I think this can help control a lot of problems. Without a cover,
it takes a tremendous size heater to do anything for the temperature of the
pond. Hot pond, cool atmosphere, means fog, which is evaporation, which
gives off significant amounts of latent heat cooling the pond.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

The big advantage however is keeping my filter system up & running, as I'm
100% convinced that one should not stop filtering a koi pond. The bacteria
will survive, they will go dormant or perform at a very very low level, but
they will still be there when spring kicks in.

In agreement there. I was just reading a short print out regarding this,
that the bacteria don't die, they just go dormant. I assume freezing solid
might do them in, but with slow circulation they should hang in there. Not
sure how I'm going to implement this with my system, but I do plan to keep
some of the bio-foam in operation this season some how.

I just wished I'd read it earlier as I could have cleaned some of the
bio-foam earlier when it was warmer. ~ jan

See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Defrosted~
Tri-Cities, WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

I'm curious about people putting what sounds like pool covers over their
ponds to keep the heat in and prevent evaporative cooling. Here in New
England my pond (4-5 foot deep) gets a 1-2 foot layer of solid ice over most
of the surface (except where I actively prevent it). So, won't any sort of
pond cover just get frozen into the ice eventually?

Brian Tarbox

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
The big advantage however is keeping my filter system up & running, as
I'm
100% convinced that one should not stop filtering a koi pond. The
bacteria
will survive, they will go dormant or perform at a very very low level,
but
they will still be there when spring kicks in.

In agreement there. I was just reading a short print out regarding this,
that the bacteria don't die, they just go dormant. I assume freezing solid
might do them in, but with slow circulation they should hang in there. Not
sure how I'm going to implement this with my system, but I do plan to keep
some of the bio-foam in operation this season some how.

I just wished I'd read it earlier as I could have cleaned some of the
bio-foam earlier when it was warmer. ~ jan

See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Defrosted~
Tri-Cities, WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

bjt wrote:
I'm curious about people putting what sounds like pool covers over their
ponds to keep the heat in and prevent evaporative cooling. Here in New
England my pond (4-5 foot deep) gets a 1-2 foot layer of solid ice over most
of the surface (except where I actively prevent it). So, won't any sort of
pond cover just get frozen into the ice eventually?

Brian Tarbox

There are others that are more experienced, but this I definitly know:
You can not treat the pond like a swimming pool,
when it comes to a SOLAR cover. The cover MUST be ABOVE the pond.

1. If you were to float the cover on the surface,
there cannot be a proper exchange of O2 and Co2 (Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide.)

@. The air space between the cover and the surface provides an extra
insulation layer
against the transfer of cold to and heat away from the pond.

The cover needs to be supported above the surface of the water to allow for
the gas exchanges. The dead air above the pond is one type of insulation,
the cover acts as a wind break, and a barrier to the exchange of warm air
with the cold air outside. The ground temperature, at about 1 or 2 feet
below the frost line is a fairly constant temperature in the low to mid
50's. This heat from the ground is transported into the pond and keeps the
pond warming. The amount of insulation at the top should be enough to
prevent freezing of the pond. Also the cover acts like a greenhouse and
allows for some solar heating if it is not covered in snow. If it is
covered in snow, then the snow is another good layer of insulation, helping
to keep the pond warm.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"bjt" wrote in message
...
I'm curious about people putting what sounds like pool covers over their
ponds to keep the heat in and prevent evaporative cooling. Here in New
England my pond (4-5 foot deep) gets a 1-2 foot layer of solid ice over
most
of the surface (except where I actively prevent it). So, won't any sort
of
pond cover just get frozen into the ice eventually?

Brian Tarbox

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
The big advantage however is keeping my filter system up & running, as
I'm
100% convinced that one should not stop filtering a koi pond. The
bacteria
will survive, they will go dormant or perform at a very very low level,
but
they will still be there when spring kicks in.

In agreement there. I was just reading a short print out regarding this,
that the bacteria don't die, they just go dormant. I assume freezing
solid
might do them in, but with slow circulation they should hang in there.
Not
sure how I'm going to implement this with my system, but I do plan to
keep
some of the bio-foam in operation this season some how.

I just wished I'd read it earlier as I could have cleaned some of the
bio-foam earlier when it was warmer. ~ jan

See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Defrosted~
Tri-Cities, WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Good info Rich, and it's exactly how I understood it as well. Nice one.

Theo

pond is holding at 58oF with just the 500 watt heater. tent isnt on yet. but didnt
pull the plants yet either. Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Thank you for the information.
My pond is about 10' by 16' so its not practical for me to build a tent over
it..especially as we tend to get multple feet of snow here in New England.

In past years I've used surface agiation to keep at least a part of the
surface clear of ice but its a pretty unstable solution IMHO. All it take
is a pretty brief power outage and everything freezes up. After three years
of at least one emergency per winter I'm ready to try something else.

I like the idea of some kind of supported cover but not sure if I can pull
it off for my size pond.

If I use one or more floating heaters to keep air holes, but let the rest of
the surface freeze (and then cover with ice), will that ice/snow also act as
an insulator for the remaining water?

Brian


"RichToyBox" wrote in message
news:_jTmb.27496$ao4.41175@attbi_s51...
The cover needs to be supported above the surface of the water to allow
for
the gas exchanges. The dead air above the pond is one type of insulation,
the cover acts as a wind break, and a barrier to the exchange of warm air
with the cold air outside. The ground temperature, at about 1 or 2 feet
below the frost line is a fairly constant temperature in the low to mid
50's. This heat from the ground is transported into the pond and keeps
the
pond warming. The amount of insulation at the top should be enough to
prevent freezing of the pond. Also the cover acts like a greenhouse and
allows for some solar heating if it is not covered in snow. If it is
covered in snow, then the snow is another good layer of insulation,
helping
to keep the pond warm.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"bjt" wrote in message
...
I'm curious about people putting what sounds like pool covers over their
ponds to keep the heat in and prevent evaporative cooling. Here in New
England my pond (4-5 foot deep) gets a 1-2 foot layer of solid ice over
most
of the surface (except where I actively prevent it). So, won't any sort
of
pond cover just get frozen into the ice eventually?

Brian Tarbox

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
The big advantage however is keeping my filter system up & running,
as
I'm
100% convinced that one should not stop filtering a koi pond. The
bacteria
will survive, they will go dormant or perform at a very very low
level,
but
they will still be there when spring kicks in.

In agreement there. I was just reading a short print out regarding
this,
that the bacteria don't die, they just go dormant. I assume freezing
solid
might do them in, but with slow circulation they should hang in there.
Not
sure how I'm going to implement this with my system, but I do plan to
keep
some of the bio-foam in operation this season some how.

I just wished I'd read it earlier as I could have cleaned some of the
bio-foam earlier when it was warmer. ~ jan

See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Defrosted~
Tri-Cities, WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

You could build yourself a floating shelter... similar to a hoop house,
but meant for larger ponds.

Check out Greg's.

http://www.geocities.com/bickal2000/deicer.htm

We use to have a ponder who posted from Sweden I believe it was. When his
pond froze over he'd suck out the first 3" or so and have an air space with
a dome of ice. Kept the surface from freezing over there after. This
probably works great where once it freezes solid it doesn't thaw out till
spring. ~ jan

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:26:25 -0500, "bjt" wrote:

Thank you for the information.
My pond is about 10' by 16' so its not practical for me to build a tent over
it..especially as we tend to get multple feet of snow here in New England.

In past years I've used surface agiation to keep at least a part of the
surface clear of ice but its a pretty unstable solution IMHO. All it take
is a pretty brief power outage and everything freezes up. After three years
of at least one emergency per winter I'm ready to try something else.

I like the idea of some kind of supported cover but not sure if I can pull
it off for my size pond.

If I use one or more floating heaters to keep air holes, but let the rest of
the surface freeze (and then cover with ice), will that ice/snow also act as
an insulator for the remaining water?

Brian


"RichToyBox" wrote in message
news:_jTmb.27496$ao4.41175@attbi_s51...
The cover needs to be supported above the surface of the water to allow
for
the gas exchanges. The dead air above the pond is one type of insulation,
the cover acts as a wind break, and a barrier to the exchange of warm air
with the cold air outside. The ground temperature, at about 1 or 2 feet
below the frost line is a fairly constant temperature in the low to mid
50's. This heat from the ground is transported into the pond and keeps
the
pond warming. The amount of insulation at the top should be enough to
prevent freezing of the pond. Also the cover acts like a greenhouse and
allows for some solar heating if it is not covered in snow. If it is
covered in snow, then the snow is another good layer of insulation,
helping
to keep the pond warm.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"bjt" wrote in message
...
I'm curious about people putting what sounds like pool covers over their
ponds to keep the heat in and prevent evaporative cooling. Here in New
England my pond (4-5 foot deep) gets a 1-2 foot layer of solid ice over
most
of the surface (except where I actively prevent it). So, won't any sort
of
pond cover just get frozen into the ice eventually?

Brian Tarbox

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
The big advantage however is keeping my filter system up & running,
as
I'm
100% convinced that one should not stop filtering a koi pond. The
bacteria
will survive, they will go dormant or perform at a very very low
level,
but
they will still be there when spring kicks in.

In agreement there. I was just reading a short print out regarding
this,
that the bacteria don't die, they just go dormant. I assume freezing
solid
might do them in, but with slow circulation they should hang in there.
Not
sure how I'm going to implement this with my system, but I do plan to
keep
some of the bio-foam in operation this season some how.

I just wished I'd read it earlier as I could have cleaned some of the
bio-foam earlier when it was warmer. ~ jan

See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Defrosted~
Tri-Cities, WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website






See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Defrosted~
Tri-Cities, WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

BIG RAIN the last few days... filled up everything. but cold weather finally coming
so went to start hauling the trops out of the veggie filter. the pond water is 60oF!
fish are hungry and wanna be fed. this heater is working great. it has kept the
temp up well past the usual date I quit feeding. hope to keep temp up until dec 1
and then let temp drop. then turn it back on in march and warm em back up fast.
only 3 months of "hibernation" instead of 6!!!
Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.