Baking Soda to lower pH
Here I go again:
I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. I'm wondering just how MUCH BS a pun? is needed? My lily pond is 3 yo 1,000 gallon EPDM with 6 fantail goldfish. I've added enough baking soda recently that the KH read 280/ppm today after adding 4 cups of BS. The pH is still reading over 9.0, and I added 2 more cups this evening. At what ppm is the KH detrimental to the goldfish, or is safe as long as there is more liquid water than solid BS in the pond? At what ppm will the pH dropped, or is this really an old fisherman's tale? This pond has concrete block surrounding the top, but it is 3 yo, and I haven't had this bad a time with pH the previous years, usually a few treatment with M.acid has gotten it under control. This year I've used a whole gallon on it (~2 cups/time). Only brings it down for a week or so. The other odd thing, at least I find odd as I'm always preaching if your water hyacinths are dying check the pH. Well the water hyacinths are green, not growing much, but green.... and so is the water, but that I don't find unusual considering the pH. I'd also like to mention the duckweed is growing great in the block holes, I guess a high pH doesn't bother them. So what do you think? ~ jan (Do you know where your water quality is?) |
Baking Soda to lower pH
OK, first of all BS will make PH go up, think about it, high PH is alkaline
water not acidic. I have no idea what you have done to your pond. time to start over I would think "~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message s.com... Here I go again: I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. I'm wondering just how MUCH BS a pun? is needed? My lily pond is 3 yo 1,000 gallon EPDM with 6 fantail goldfish. I've added enough baking soda recently that the KH read 280/ppm today after adding 4 cups of BS. The pH is still reading over 9.0, and I added 2 more cups this evening. At what ppm is the KH detrimental to the goldfish, or is safe as long as there is more liquid water than solid BS in the pond? At what ppm will the pH dropped, or is this really an old fisherman's tale? This pond has concrete block surrounding the top, but it is 3 yo, and I haven't had this bad a time with pH the previous years, usually a few treatment with M.acid has gotten it under control. This year I've used a whole gallon on it (~2 cups/time). Only brings it down for a week or so. The other odd thing, at least I find odd as I'm always preaching if your water hyacinths are dying check the pH. Well the water hyacinths are green, not growing much, but green.... and so is the water, but that I don't find unusual considering the pH. I'd also like to mention the duckweed is growing great in the block holes, I guess a high pH doesn't bother them. So what do you think? ~ jan (Do you know where your water quality is?) |
Baking Soda to lower pH
"Steve (Dart)" wrote in message ... OK, first of all BS will make PH go up, think about it, high PH is alkaline water not acidic. I have no idea what you have done to your pond. time to start over I would think Not exactly. Baking soda is (IIRC) 8.2 ph, so it WILL drop the a ph from 9.0. It is a buffer, bringing the pond ph back towards 8.2, whether the ph is 9.0 or 6.0. If you are further out - say below 6 or over 10, it will have a significant effect, but closer to 8.2 it takes a lot to move the ph. I've read varying amounts - a pound per 700 gallons, a pound a week, etc, so I can't say what is correct. Your plants are happy, do your fish seem happy too? |
Baking Soda to lower pH
Jan,
Where have you heard this horse crap. Baking Soda when added to acidic water will raise the pH to a stabilized position and hold it there, but it certainly will not lower pH especially if you pH is already at the 8 level. For Heaven's sake stop adding baking soda. You only need a KH of between 80-120ppm to keep from pH shifts. If you pond is in the 8 pH region you can add Baking Soda to increase your KH to the desired level of 80-120ppm as previous stated, but this can be done with out making the pH rise, but if you keep increasing the Baking Soda it will eventually start raising the pH because you are adding a bunch of -OH ions to the increasing the basic side of the pH scale. In any event, stop the addition of BS and check the pH frequently to see what happens. Not knowing your water chemistry I would venture to guess that it should start dropping. The carbonate ions that your are adding are used by the biobugs in the chemical reactions that change ammonia to nitrites and nitrites to nitrates, which is why it is important to keep KH in the range previously mentioned. HTH Tom L.L. =================================== ~ jan JJsPond.us wrote: Here I go again: I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. I'm wondering just how MUCH BS a pun? is needed? My lily pond is 3 yo 1,000 gallon EPDM with 6 fantail goldfish. I've added enough baking soda recently that the KH read 280/ppm today after adding 4 cups of BS. The pH is still reading over 9.0, and I added 2 more cups this evening. At what ppm is the KH detrimental to the goldfish, or is safe as long as there is more liquid water than solid BS in the pond? At what ppm will the pH dropped, or is this really an old fisherman's tale? This pond has concrete block surrounding the top, but it is 3 yo, and I haven't had this bad a time with pH the previous years, usually a few treatment with M.acid has gotten it under control. This year I've used a whole gallon on it (~2 cups/time). Only brings it down for a week or so. The other odd thing, at least I find odd as I'm always preaching if your water hyacinths are dying check the pH. Well the water hyacinths are green, not growing much, but green.... and so is the water, but that I don't find unusual considering the pH. I'd also like to mention the duckweed is growing great in the block holes, I guess a high pH doesn't bother them. So what do you think? ~ jan (Do you know where your water quality is?) |
Baking Soda to lower pH
In article m, ~ jan
JJsPond.us wrote: Here I go again: I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. I'm wondering just how MUCH BS a pun? is needed? My lily pond is 3 yo 1,000 gallon EPDM with 6 fantail goldfish. I've added enough baking soda recently that the KH read 280/ppm today after adding 4 cups of BS. The pH is still reading over 9.0, and I added 2 more cups this evening. Are your plants on cinder/concrete-blocks ? Whats the water coming in at ? What was the general pH last year ? Given your liner, its gotta be the water coming in, or an object in the pond. I would back off on the BS, I think Rod (If I may be so presumptuous) might suggest a milk-crate of oyster shells... but with a KH of 280 currently that 9 is gonna be hard to move. At what ppm is the KH detrimental to the goldfish, This is well out of the "ideal" range in my test kits, but I just never have this problem, so no practical experience. jay Fri Jul 02, 2004 or is safe as long as there is more liquid water than solid BS in the pond? At what ppm will the pH dropped, or is this really an old fisherman's tale? This pond has concrete block surrounding the top, but it is 3 yo, and I haven't had this bad a time with pH the previous years, usually a few treatment with M.acid has gotten it under control. This year I've used a whole gallon on it (~2 cups/time). Only brings it down for a week or so. The other odd thing, at least I find odd as I'm always preaching if your water hyacinths are dying check the pH. Well the water hyacinths are green, not growing much, but green.... and so is the water, but that I don't find unusual considering the pH. I'd also like to mention the duckweed is growing great in the block holes, I guess a high pH doesn't bother them. So what do you think? ~ jan (Do you know where your water quality is?) |
Baking Soda to lower pH
I cant imagine how baking soda would lower pH. Acid is used to lower pH.
baking soda breaks down to CO2 and H2O, so you are putting CO2 into the water. I should add that bs only adds CO2 as it breaks down in response to acid. how old is you pH kit? did the sticks get wet? Ingrid ~ jan JJsPond.us wrote: I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. The other odd thing, at least I find odd as I'm always preaching if your water hyacinths are dying check the pH. Well the water hyacinths are green, not growing much, but green.... and so is the water, but that I don't find unusual considering the pH. I'd also like to mention the duckweed is growing great in the block holes, I guess a high pH doesn't bother them. So what do you think? ~ jan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
Baking Soda to lower pH
if her calcium level is already up, there is no reason for shells. certainly her pH
is high and it wouldnt dissolve anyway. Ingrid Go Fig wrote: might suggest a milk-crate of oyster shells.. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
Baking Soda to lower pH
"Tom L. La Bron" wrote in message
... Jan, Where have you heard this horse crap. Baking Soda when added to acidic water will raise the pH to a stabilized position and hold it there, but it certainly will not lower pH especially if you pH is already at the 8 level. Here's a good article on the chemistry of baking soda as a buffer, either raising or lowering ph http://www.mnwgs.org/articles/EmptykH.htm "But how can the bicarbonate act as a buffer to go the other way, lowering the pH if it is too high? In that case the bicarbonate ion would give up its hydrogen as an ion, thus adding acid, lowering pH, and becoming a carbonate ion (C03). HCO3 = C03 + H bicarbonate carbonate + H acid." |
Baking Soda to lower pH
Might be cheaper to use Soda Ash instead of baking soda, thats whats
used in swimming pools. Grandpa ~ jan JJsPond.us wrote: Here I go again: I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. I'm wondering just how MUCH BS a pun? is needed? My lily pond is 3 yo 1,000 gallon EPDM with 6 fantail goldfish. I've added enough baking soda recently that the KH read 280/ppm today after adding 4 cups of BS. The pH is still reading over 9.0, and I added 2 more cups this evening. |
Baking Soda to lower pH
this is not a "good article", this person admits to not understanding what is
actually going on, so she is just repeating what "others" say (which is incorrect). you always need to do an advanced google search designating .edu sites only, that explains how things work. http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edud...er/Buffer.html "The lungs remove excess CO2 from the blood (helping to raise the pH via shifts in the equilibria in Equation 10), and the kidneys remove excess HCO3- from the body (helping to lower the pH). " So the bicarbonate system works to INCREASE the pH by releasing CO2 (and the lungs blow it off) but to decreases the pH the kidneys are needed to remove HCO3- from the body. Ingrid "Grubber" wrote: Here's a good article on the chemistry of baking soda as a buffer, either raising or lowering ph http://www.mnwgs.org/articles/EmptykH.htm "But how can the bicarbonate act as a buffer to go the other way, lowering the pH if it is too high? In that case the bicarbonate ion would give up its hydrogen as an ion, thus adding acid, lowering pH, and becoming a carbonate ion (C03). HCO3 = C03 + H bicarbonate carbonate + H acid." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
Baking Soda to lower pH
wrote in message
... this is not a "good article", this person admits to not understanding what is actually going on, so she is just repeating what "others" say (which is incorrect). you always need to do an advanced google search designating .edu sites only, that explains how things work. http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edud...er/Buffer.html "The lungs remove excess CO2 from the blood (helping to raise the pH via shifts in the equilibria in Equation 10), and the kidneys remove excess HCO3- from the body (helping to lower the pH). " So the bicarbonate system works to INCREASE the pH by releasing CO2 (and the lungs blow it off) but to decreases the pH the kidneys are needed to remove HCO3- from the body. Ingrid OK Here's a .edu site "Because of its chemical makeup, Baking Soda has unique capabilities as a Ph balancer or buffer. Buffering is the maintenance of a stable pH balance, or acid-alkali balance. As a buffer, Baking Soda tends to cause acid solutions to become more alkali and to cause alkali solutions to become more acid, bringing both solutions to a stable pH around 8.1 (slightly basic) on the pH scale. A buffer also resists pH change in a solution, in this case maintaining a pH of 8.1." http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/mecklenburg/depts/fce/soda.htm The other site was better because it actually explained the chemical process. A .edu site doesn't mean the reader understands what is being read. |
Baking Soda to lower pH
The nature of baking soda is that it will give up H+ ions making more acids,
but only if the pH is above the buffer point. When it does this, it leaves behind carbonate ions, which could precipitate as calcium carbonate, (limestone), of calcium magnesium carbonate, (dolomite), if there is enough carbonate and it is not being pushed back to bicarbonate. You didn't say it, but I assume you are checking fish ponds with the same test kit and not getting the same high readings, and that the pH test kit is good. You may be at some saturation point and major water changes could help bring the pH down, though with your additions of acid and the temporary decrease, I doubt it. As for the maximum level, I saw somewhere, I think, a value of 300ppm. -- RichToyBox http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html "~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message s.com... Here I go again: I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. I'm wondering just how MUCH BS a pun? is needed? My lily pond is 3 yo 1,000 gallon EPDM with 6 fantail goldfish. I've added enough baking soda recently that the KH read 280/ppm today after adding 4 cups of BS. The pH is still reading over 9.0, and I added 2 more cups this evening. At what ppm is the KH detrimental to the goldfish, or is safe as long as there is more liquid water than solid BS in the pond? At what ppm will the pH dropped, or is this really an old fisherman's tale? This pond has concrete block surrounding the top, but it is 3 yo, and I haven't had this bad a time with pH the previous years, usually a few treatment with M.acid has gotten it under control. This year I've used a whole gallon on it (~2 cups/time). Only brings it down for a week or so. The other odd thing, at least I find odd as I'm always preaching if your water hyacinths are dying check the pH. Well the water hyacinths are green, not growing much, but green.... and so is the water, but that I don't find unusual considering the pH. I'd also like to mention the duckweed is growing great in the block holes, I guess a high pH doesn't bother them. So what do you think? ~ jan (Do you know where your water quality is?) |
Baking Soda to lower pH
The nature of baking soda is that it will give up H+ ions making more acids,
but only if the pH is above the buffer point. When it does this, it leaves behind carbonate ions, which could precipitate as calcium carbonate, (limestone), of calcium magnesium carbonate, (dolomite), if there is enough carbonate and it is not being pushed back to bicarbonate. You didn't say it, but I assume you are checking fish ponds with the same test kit and not getting the same high readings, and that the pH test kit is good. You may be at some saturation point and major water changes could help bring the pH down, though with your additions of acid and the temporary decrease, I doubt it. As for the maximum level, I saw somewhere, I think, a value of 300ppm. -- RichToyBox http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html "~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message s.com... Here I go again: I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. I'm wondering just how MUCH BS a pun? is needed? My lily pond is 3 yo 1,000 gallon EPDM with 6 fantail goldfish. I've added enough baking soda recently that the KH read 280/ppm today after adding 4 cups of BS. The pH is still reading over 9.0, and I added 2 more cups this evening. At what ppm is the KH detrimental to the goldfish, or is safe as long as there is more liquid water than solid BS in the pond? At what ppm will the pH dropped, or is this really an old fisherman's tale? This pond has concrete block surrounding the top, but it is 3 yo, and I haven't had this bad a time with pH the previous years, usually a few treatment with M.acid has gotten it under control. This year I've used a whole gallon on it (~2 cups/time). Only brings it down for a week or so. The other odd thing, at least I find odd as I'm always preaching if your water hyacinths are dying check the pH. Well the water hyacinths are green, not growing much, but green.... and so is the water, but that I don't find unusual considering the pH. I'd also like to mention the duckweed is growing great in the block holes, I guess a high pH doesn't bother them. So what do you think? ~ jan (Do you know where your water quality is?) |
Baking Soda to lower pH
you are absolutely correct. the site is put up by Mecklenburg County Family and
Consumer Education Page http://turfgrass.cas.psu.edu/educati...rrWatQual.html they dont talk about high pH, but they do say "High cencentrations of bicarbonate and carbonate ions in irrigation water can induce precipitation of calcium and magnesium ions to form calcium and magnesium carbonates, which have low solubility. The precipitation of calcium and magnesium allows sodium ions to dominate and, thus, increases the sodium hazard associated with the irrigation water." OTOH, "pH - Where the pH of the irrigation water is greater that 8.4, bicarbonate and sodium ion concentrations are often high. Where the pH of the irrigation water is less than 6.5, iron and sulfate ion cencentrations are typically high. Attempts to adjust the pH of irrigation water should be based on RSC values, not pH alone." which means at high pH bicarb ions are high but not being "removed" somehow, unless there is calcium or magnesium ions. it is important to point out that those who have tried it have not been able to drop their high pH. experiments. Ingrid "Grubber" wrote: OK Here's a .edu site "Because of its chemical makeup, Baking Soda has unique capabilities as a Ph balancer or buffer. Buffering is the maintenance of a stable pH balance, or acid-alkali balance. As a buffer, Baking Soda tends to cause acid solutions to become more alkali and to cause alkali solutions to become more acid, bringing both solutions to a stable pH around 8.1 (slightly basic) on the pH scale. A buffer also resists pH change in a solution, in this case maintaining a pH of 8.1." http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/mecklenburg/depts/fce/soda.htm The other site was better because it actually explained the chemical process. A .edu site doesn't mean the reader understands what is being read. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
Baking Soda to lower pH
Hi,
Rod Farlee or anything even resembling a chemist I ain't but I did keep notes on lots of his input to this group. Found this and I quote - BTW this is reposted sans permission. begin quote "Baking soda can always neutralize acidity and raise pH to 8.4 or so. Acids react with baking soda to produce carbon dioxide, which is permanently removed from the pond by aeration. But baking soda can't neutralize basicity and lower pH in an analogous way, it can only try to overwhelm it. That only works if the initial alkalinity is low, which isn't the case with your water. Another reason baking soda wasn't effective for you is what chemists call "buffer intensity". This is a measure of how strongly a buffer regulates pH (how much acid or base must be added to produce a given pH change). The buffer intensity of bicarbonate has a minimum near pH 8.5. The reason is that this pH is right between the pH of the two chemical reactions that this buffer system relies on. These two reactions are bicarbonate to carbon dioxide (grows as pH falls below 8, is 50% complete at pH 6.3), and bicarbonate to carbonate (grows as pH rises above 9, is 50% complete at pH 10.25). Between these, at pH 8 to 9, buffer intensity is low. Even though your alkalinity (total amount of bicarbonate) is high, the pH can be shifted up by excess base (carbonate), and will stay high. Muriatic acid will convert that excess carbonate to bicarbonate, and "reset" your pH down to 8.4, where it will then be stable." end quote HTH -_- how no NEWS is good wrote in message ... bicarbonate HCO3- is unlikely to give up H+ ions... it is already in an ionized state. yes, it can combine with calcium or magnesium, but does that lower the pH? WE NEED (Rod Farlee)!!!!!!! Ingrid "RichToyBox" wrote: The nature of baking soda is that it will give up H+ ions making more aci ds, but only if the pH is above the buffer point. When it does this, it leaves behind carbonate ions, which could precipitate as calcium carbonate, (limestone), of calcium magnesium carbonate, (dolomite), if there is enough carbonate and it is not being pushed back to bicarbonate. You didn't say it, but I assume you are checking fish ponds with the same test kit and not getting the same high readings, and that the pH test kit is good. You may be at some saturation point and major water changes could help bring the pH down, though with your additions of acid and the temporary decrease, I doubt it. As for the maximum level, I saw somewhere, I think, a value of 300ppm. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
Baking Soda to lower pH
bicarb has a valence of -1 in that ionic form, whereas carbonates have a
valence of -2. To get to the valence -2, it has to give off the H+ ion, thereby acidifying the water, and making the carbonates available for reacting with the calcium and magnesium, both valence +2. -- RichToyBox http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html wrote in message ... bicarbonate HCO3- is unlikely to give up H+ ions... it is already in an ionized state. yes, it can combine with calcium or magnesium, but does that lower the pH? WE NEED (Rod Farlee)!!!!!!! Ingrid "RichToyBox" wrote: The nature of baking soda is that it will give up H+ ions making more acids, but only if the pH is above the buffer point. When it does this, it leaves behind carbonate ions, which could precipitate as calcium carbonate, (limestone), of calcium magnesium carbonate, (dolomite), if there is enough carbonate and it is not being pushed back to bicarbonate. You didn't say it, but I assume you are checking fish ponds with the same test kit and not getting the same high readings, and that the pH test kit is good. You may be at some saturation point and major water changes could help bring the pH down, though with your additions of acid and the temporary decrease, I doubt it. As for the maximum level, I saw somewhere, I think, a value of 300ppm. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
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