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Winterizing Pond - Heaters
After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi |
On 28 Sep 2004 13:21:03 -0700, (MC) wrote:
===After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover ===floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The ===pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to ===escape. My questions a === ===1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine ===it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend ===it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a ===wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? === ===2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run ===it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I ===anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on ==="heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. === === === ===FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi No, an aquarium type heater is not going to burn anything inside a pond enclosure, and your liner should be safe. There is just too much mass that acts like a giant heatsink along with outside temps for thr heater to reach any temps capable of hurting fish, liner etc. Look at it this way, your gas furnace or even your electric furnace gets pretty darn hot, but air ocming out of it is nowhere near the temp of what the air is after its heated in the furnace combustion chambers plenum or goes across the heating elements all due to the quanities and masses of the duct work etc, same thing for the aquarium heater, it will never get caughtup to a tmp capable of doing pond any damage, expecially in cold weather. Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com Opinions expressed are those of my wife, I had no input whatsoever. Remove "nospam" from email addy. |
"MC" wrote in message om... After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi You'd have to have one hell of an aquarium heater to do the job you are asking of it. On the other hand, there are products out there that do the job more efficiently. I use a pond de-icer. It only raises the temperature at the surface to a level that will keep most of the pond ice-free, so it isn't on all the time, and saves on the electrical bill. Check out this web page for more information on pond de-icers: http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm The one I have is the green one. Good luck. |
"MC" wrote in message om... After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi You'd have to have one hell of an aquarium heater to do the job you are asking of it. On the other hand, there are products out there that do the job more efficiently. I use a pond de-icer. It only raises the temperature at the surface to a level that will keep most of the pond ice-free, so it isn't on all the time, and saves on the electrical bill. Check out this web page for more information on pond de-icers: http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm The one I have is the green one. Good luck. |
-- "MC" wrote in message om... After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi I'll agree with George here. We have a pool and last winter we left the solar blanket underneath the black winter tarp. It's didn't lessen the ice at all. The solar blanket just froze intot he ice. I'm in zone 6b and I use a stock tank de-icer in the pond. I don't think the aquarium heater is going to do it... Janet in Niagara Falls |
"Janet" wrote in message ... -- "MC" wrote in message om... After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi I'll agree with George here. We have a pool and last winter we left the solar blanket underneath the black winter tarp. It's didn't lessen the ice at all. The solar blanket just froze intot he ice. I'm in zone 6b and I use a stock tank de-icer in the pond. I don't think the aquarium heater is going to do it... Janet in Niagara Falls The de-icer worked great for me. |
MC wrote:
2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all, your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler. -- derek |
Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond liner. or,
suspend it from something over the pond. I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water. find some way of suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow. you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water. If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket filter with a pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the winter. in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the winter. my 1600 gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few days all winter too. Ingrid (MC) wrote: After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
... MC wrote: 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all, your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler. How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have a number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches. -- Gareee© (Gareee "at" Charter "dot" net) Homepage: http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine.../mainframe.htm Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more! |
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
... MC wrote: 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all, your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler. How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have a number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches. -- Gareee© (Gareee "at" Charter "dot" net) Homepage: http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine.../mainframe.htm Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more! |
Gareee© wrote:
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... MC wrote: 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all, your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler. How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have a number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches. In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended 6-12" below the waterline. -- derek |
I had a pond deicer last year. It didn't work in Chicago. I wound up
having to bring the fish in at the last minute. Also, I believe Chicago is too cold for a pond of my depth without a heater. A decicer does nothing to the water temperature at the bottom of the pond where the fish are. Koi do not hibernate. Ultra cold water is not good for them. "George" wrote in message ... "MC" wrote in message om... After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi You'd have to have one hell of an aquarium heater to do the job you are asking of it. On the other hand, there are products out there that do the job more efficiently. I use a pond de-icer. It only raises the temperature at the surface to a level that will keep most of the pond ice-free, so it isn't on all the time, and saves on the electrical bill. Check out this web page for more information on pond de-icers: http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm The one I have is the green one. Good luck. |
Again, if the combination of your climate and depth of your pond
allows, a deicer is great, but I don't think it fits all situations. Contrary to what many people think, Koi don't hibernate. "George" wrote in message ... "Janet" wrote in message ... -- "MC" wrote in message om... After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi I'll agree with George here. We have a pool and last winter we left the solar blanket underneath the black winter tarp. It's didn't lessen the ice at all. The solar blanket just froze intot he ice. I'm in zone 6b and I use a stock tank de-icer in the pond. I don't think the aquarium heater is going to do it... Janet in Niagara Falls The de-icer worked great for me. |
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
... Gareee© wrote: "Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... MC wrote: 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all, your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler. How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have a number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches. In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended 6-12" below the waterline. Thanks, Derek. I'll save this, and try that this year. We didn' get near as much snow as I thought we would last year, but we've had a ton of rain this year, so we might get more cold, and more snow as well. -- Gareee© (Gareee "at" Charter "dot" net) Homepage: http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine.../mainframe.htm Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more! |
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
... Gareee© wrote: "Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... MC wrote: 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all, your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler. How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have a number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches. In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended 6-12" below the waterline. Thanks, Derek. I'll save this, and try that this year. We didn' get near as much snow as I thought we would last year, but we've had a ton of rain this year, so we might get more cold, and more snow as well. -- Gareee© (Gareee "at" Charter "dot" net) Homepage: http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine.../mainframe.htm Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more! |
You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi absolutely
do not do well in water under about 40 degrees. They may make it but it can be a real struggle in the spring as in their weakened state they are very suseptable to parasites and bacterial infections... Janet in cloudy Niagara Falls -- "MC" wrote in message om... Again, if the combination of your climate and depth of your pond allows, a deicer is great, but I don't think it fits all situations. Contrary to what many people think, Koi don't hibernate. "George" wrote in message ... "Janet" wrote in message ... -- "MC" wrote in message om... After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi I'll agree with George here. We have a pool and last winter we left the solar blanket underneath the black winter tarp. It's didn't lessen the ice at all. The solar blanket just froze intot he ice. I'm in zone 6b and I use a stock tank de-icer in the pond. I don't think the aquarium heater is going to do it... Janet in Niagara Falls The de-icer worked great for me. |
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
... In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended 6-12" below the waterline. Will a fountain run winter long, and also help add oxygen as well? We have a 2 ft tall gargoyle fountain that might help prevent ice formation, and increase oxy flow... -- Gareee© (Gareee "at" Charter "dot" net) Homepage: http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine.../mainframe.htm Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more! |
Derek Broughton wrote in message ...
Gareee© wrote: "Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... MC wrote: 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all, your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler. How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have a number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches. In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended 6-12" below the waterline. Or go for the belt AND suspenders approach, and use both. My pond is shallow enough to freeze solid in Ottawa, so for heating I use a 60'/300W length of eaves de-icing cable (available at HD). I just spread it roughly around the bottom when I "close down" the pond, then plug it in when it starts to freeze. I also bought about the biggest aquarium air pump I could find, and run that straight out the end of the plastic air-line (I don't use an airstone; I don't know honestly know whether getting max flow or finer bubbles is more important). The end of the airline is threaded through a brick so it sits near the bottom. The hole still sometimes freezes over during January cold snaps (I'm not too worried, as I figure if the air is going in, it must also be coming back out somewhere....). Note that my objective isn't to keep the entire pond open: just to prevent it from freezing all the way to the bottom, and have one hole for gas exchange. -- Kizhe |
A bubbler won't do anything in really cold weather. The water freezes.
Even running a waterfall, it will freeze in really cold weather. A 300 watt heater will raise the water temp 10 degrees for a 300 gallon pond as a rule of thumb. I am planning on 2 300 watt heaters. That should raise the temp about 15-20 degrees with the solar cover. I would expect at 30 inches below ground with the ground acting as an insulater, It will keep the temp above 40. Derek Broughton wrote in message ... MC wrote: 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all, your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler. |
I plan on definitely using a air pump to provide oxygen. I tried
suspending one below the surface 2 years from a floating piece of foam. When it got really cold, it froze and didn't keep a hole open. One thing that helped keep a hole open and was cheap to run was my submersible halogen pond light. I suspended it a little below the surface and it it generated enough heat except in the very coldest part of winter. wrote in message ... Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond liner. or, suspend it from something over the pond. I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water. find some way of suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow. you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water. If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket filter with a pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the winter. in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the winter. my 1600 gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few days all winter too. Ingrid (MC) wrote: After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
-25C is about -13F. You must get great sun and be protected from the
wind. I've seen 4 foot high waterfalls freeze in temps that cold. How does a small air bubbler keep the water from freezing? Derek Broughton wrote in message ... Gareee© wrote: "Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... MC wrote: 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all, your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler. How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have a number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches. In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended 6-12" below the waterline. |
I thought the cover floating on the surface would help reatin heat at
night and add a lot of heat during the day as the pond gets almost full sun. My concern is that if there is a big snow, it could take my cover down to the bottom of the pond. wrote in message ... Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond liner. or, suspend it from something over the pond. I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water. find some way of suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow. you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water. If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket filter with a pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the winter. in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the winter. my 1600 gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few days all winter too. Ingrid (MC) wrote: After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
Having the cover suspended, but fully enclosing the pond area, creates a
dead air space above the pond. Still air is a good insulator. The solar blanket is a good solar collector and does not have to be in contact with the water to work. I use the solar blanket with two layers of poly sheeting stretched over a lean-to of 2X4's and with heaters in the skimmer, I maintain a temperature of 70 degrees most of the winter with a temperature of about 62 as the low. Fish are fed every day, at least once. Filters are functional year round. -- RichToyBox http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html "MC" wrote in message om... I thought the cover floating on the surface would help reatin heat at night and add a lot of heat during the day as the pond gets almost full sun. My concern is that if there is a big snow, it could take my cover down to the bottom of the pond. wrote in message ... Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond liner. or, suspend it from something over the pond. I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water. find some way of suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow. you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water. If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket filter with a pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the winter. in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the winter. my 1600 gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few days all winter too. Ingrid (MC) wrote: After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
"MC" wrote in message om... After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi I am no expert at this. In fact I am a first year ponder. I have been lurking in this group for six months or so and have read several book on ponding. So for what it's worth here is my advise. I'm using a bubbler and a stock tank heater as a back up if it looks like the bubbler can't handle the job. Remember you are only trying to keep the pond from freezing over completely. I live in central MO 1200 gallons 26" deep, don't know the zone. I have been told that you should not run the pump in the winter it will mix all the different layers of water disturbing that warm layer at the bottom. Yes the warm water is at the bottom. If it where on top the pond would freeze from the bottom up. This is also why you only put the bubbler about six " below the service. As fare as the filter you really don't need it either, you stop feeding the fish at a water temp of 45 degrease . so there is little to no litter from them that the bubbler can't handle and algae is not going to form at those temps either. The fish stay at the bottom where the water is warmest and seam to do OK even the Koi. Don't start to feed the fish again before the water temp goes above 45-50 degrease and will stay there. Fish don't digest food under 45 degrease and the undigested food can harm, or even kill them. What I need help on is how do I over winter my Water Lettuce, my Marginal and Bog plants. I know to put my Lilly's in the deepest part of the pond. The others I will bring onto the house but don't know how to go about doing this? |
"Rick" wrote in message nk.net... "MC" wrote in message om... Snippage What I need help on is how do I over winter my Water Lettuce, my Marginal and Bog plants. I know to put my Lilly's in the deepest part of the pond. The others I will bring onto the house but don't know how to go about doing this? I'm going to try my water lettuce in my fish tank, I just wish I'd got it before my water hyacynth gave up the ghost Peter |
I kept a hole open all winter with:
small maxi 1000 water pump with hose running water just over one of those flat aluminum bird bath heaters http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/mypond/wi...ondheater.html the pond is a small preformed 220 gallon. I have kept a hole open with two large round airstones on a kmart double outlet air pump positioned right above a 100 watt heater. my problem is when the electricity goes out. that is why I went to the covered pond. then I decided I didnt like my fish going without food that long. that is when I bought the 500 watt. now AES is on BACK ORDER. !!!!! Ingrid (MC) wrote: A bubbler won't do anything in really cold weather. The water freezes. Even running a waterfall, it will freeze in really cold weather. A 300 watt heater will raise the water temp 10 degrees for a 300 gallon pond as a rule of thumb. I am planning on 2 300 watt heaters. That should raise the temp about 15-20 degrees with the solar cover. I would expect at 30 inches below ground with the ground acting as an insulater, It will keep the temp above 40. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
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MC wrote:
A bubbler won't do anything in really cold weather. The water freezes. Even running a waterfall, it will freeze in really cold weather. You're kidding me? I could have sworn I had a hole in the ice surface all winter. A bubbler will work in any weather I've had to encounter in zone 6 - for you, you might have to resort to something else for three or four days. A 300 watt heater will raise the water temp 10 degrees for a 300 gallon pond as a rule of thumb. That might just barely work in an aquarium in a house, where you're not dealing with a solid-gas phase change. Remember, it takes 40 times the energy to change ice to water as it does to raise the temperature of water 1 degree. I am planning on 2 300 watt heaters. That should raise the temp about 15-20 degrees with the solar cover. I would expect at 30 inches below ground with the ground acting as an insulater, It will keep the temp above 40. Even if I were to accept your numbers, 600W x 24hours x 50days (my guess at the number of sub-freezing days you're going to be faced with in Zone5) = 720KWh to run those heaters over the winter. Considering that I currently have an _annual_ electricity consumption of about 500KWh, and your average household uses 100-200KWh, monthly, that sounds completely out of whack. -- derek |
MC wrote:
A bubbler won't do anything in really cold weather. The water freezes. Even running a waterfall, it will freeze in really cold weather. You're kidding me? I could have sworn I had a hole in the ice surface all winter. A bubbler will work in any weather I've had to encounter in zone 6 - for you, you might have to resort to something else for three or four days. A 300 watt heater will raise the water temp 10 degrees for a 300 gallon pond as a rule of thumb. That might just barely work in an aquarium in a house, where you're not dealing with a solid-gas phase change. Remember, it takes 40 times the energy to change ice to water as it does to raise the temperature of water 1 degree. I am planning on 2 300 watt heaters. That should raise the temp about 15-20 degrees with the solar cover. I would expect at 30 inches below ground with the ground acting as an insulater, It will keep the temp above 40. Even if I were to accept your numbers, 600W x 24hours x 50days (my guess at the number of sub-freezing days you're going to be faced with in Zone5) = 720KWh to run those heaters over the winter. Considering that I currently have an _annual_ electricity consumption of about 500KWh, and your average household uses 100-200KWh, monthly, that sounds completely out of whack. -- derek |
"Rick" wrote in message
nk.net... I'm using a bubbler and a stock tank heater as a back up if it looks like the bubbler can't handle the job. Remember you are only trying to keep the pond from freezing over completely. Actually, it doesn't even need to keep a hole open in the ice. The main purpose of the bubbler is to make sure that gases from rotting vegetation and other wastes do not become trapped and build up some concentration level of those gases. If bubbles are being added to the water and they are escaping somewhere (like around the edges), then they will take the gases with them. If the gases are not escaping, the the pond will build up pressure until it explodes. Stand back! :-) (not really) Unless your fish need slightly warmer water (and it will only be slightly), the heater is totally unnecessary and a waste of energy. I live in northern Colorado. On my little pond the bubbles create interesting volcano type mounds. When it gets really cold, those close up and the gases escape around the edges somewhere. Jerry |
MC wrote:
-25C is about -13F. You must get great sun and be protected from the wind. I've seen 4 foot high waterfalls freeze in temps that cold. How does a small air bubbler keep the water from freezing? In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended 6-12" below the waterline. I don't have a clue :-) I do know that they use bubblers in the Great Lakes to keep marina berths ice free, and for some of the ferries on Lake Ontario. I did have great sun, but I wasn't protected from the wind. In stormy weather you'd sometimes get enough slush to block the hole faster than the bubbler could clear it, so it requires a little manual assistance, but it's storms (generally at close to freezing temps) not extreme cold that are the bigger problem with the bubbler. -- derek |
MC wrote:
-25C is about -13F. You must get great sun and be protected from the wind. I've seen 4 foot high waterfalls freeze in temps that cold. How does a small air bubbler keep the water from freezing? In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended 6-12" below the waterline. I don't have a clue :-) I do know that they use bubblers in the Great Lakes to keep marina berths ice free, and for some of the ferries on Lake Ontario. I did have great sun, but I wasn't protected from the wind. In stormy weather you'd sometimes get enough slush to block the hole faster than the bubbler could clear it, so it requires a little manual assistance, but it's storms (generally at close to freezing temps) not extreme cold that are the bigger problem with the bubbler. -- derek |
Gareee© wrote:
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended 6-12" below the waterline. Will a fountain run winter long, and also help add oxygen as well? We have a 2 ft tall gargoyle fountain that might help prevent ice formation, and increase oxy flow... I shouldn't think so. A fountain just provides a bigger air-contact surface, and encourages quicker freezing. A bubbler will create a very small hole - mine was always in the 2-6" range. -- derek |
about 80 times
http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/wsFALL200...of_matter.html Ingrid Remember, it takes 40 times the energy to change ice to water as it does to raise the temperature of water 1 degree. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
Hi Rich:
What is the coldest you get and for how long? We are considering covering the pond this year. Partly to keep it warmer but mostly to keep six months of dust, dirt etc out. Should make spring cleaning easier even if it's not so pretty in the winter. Heather "RichToyBox" wrote in message news:2yH6d.47864$He1.25742@attbi_s01... Having the cover suspended, but fully enclosing the pond area, creates a dead air space above the pond. Still air is a good insulator. The solar blanket is a good solar collector and does not have to be in contact with the water to work. I use the solar blanket with two layers of poly sheeting stretched over a lean-to of 2X4's and with heaters in the skimmer, I maintain a temperature of 70 degrees most of the winter with a temperature of about 62 as the low. Fish are fed every day, at least once. Filters are functional year round. -- RichToyBox http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html "MC" wrote in message om... I thought the cover floating on the surface would help reatin heat at night and add a lot of heat during the day as the pond gets almost full sun. My concern is that if there is a big snow, it could take my cover down to the bottom of the pond. wrote in message ... Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond liner. or, suspend it from something over the pond. I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water. find some way of suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow. you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water. If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket filter with a pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the winter. in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the winter. my 1600 gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few days all winter too. Ingrid (MC) wrote: After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
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"MC" wrote in message om... I had a pond deicer last year. It didn't work in Chicago. I wound up having to bring the fish in at the last minute. Also, I believe Chicago is too cold for a pond of my depth without a heater. A decicer does nothing to the water temperature at the bottom of the pond where the fish are. Koi do not hibernate. Ultra cold water is not good for them. That is why ponds should be dug to at least six inches below the frost line - to insure that they don't freeze completely solid. As for ultra cold water, I don't know what you mean by this, as water freezes at 32 F. My pond, with a de-icer, only had about 1/16th of an inch of ice on if for about two days last year, and that was only at one end of the pond. The water below the surface never got below 39 degrees, and my Koi, goldfish, and channel catfish all did just fine. I didn't lose any fish at all. My pond is 45" deep (18" above ground, 27" below), while the frost line here in Louisville is at 22". Koi will stop eating below a certain temperature (some say below 50-54 degrees F). Mine stopped eating below 50 F. So while they may not hibernate in the sense that a bear will hibernate, they do become lethargic, and greatly reduce their activity. This is normal behavior for temperate fish in winter. "George" wrote in message ... "MC" wrote in message om... After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi You'd have to have one hell of an aquarium heater to do the job you are asking of it. On the other hand, there are products out there that do the job more efficiently. I use a pond de-icer. It only raises the temperature at the surface to a level that will keep most of the pond ice-free, so it isn't on all the time, and saves on the electrical bill. Check out this web page for more information on pond de-icers: http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm The one I have is the green one. Good luck. |
"MC" wrote in message om... I had a pond deicer last year. It didn't work in Chicago. I wound up having to bring the fish in at the last minute. Also, I believe Chicago is too cold for a pond of my depth without a heater. A decicer does nothing to the water temperature at the bottom of the pond where the fish are. Koi do not hibernate. Ultra cold water is not good for them. That is why ponds should be dug to at least six inches below the frost line - to insure that they don't freeze completely solid. As for ultra cold water, I don't know what you mean by this, as water freezes at 32 F. My pond, with a de-icer, only had about 1/16th of an inch of ice on if for about two days last year, and that was only at one end of the pond. The water below the surface never got below 39 degrees, and my Koi, goldfish, and channel catfish all did just fine. I didn't lose any fish at all. My pond is 45" deep (18" above ground, 27" below), while the frost line here in Louisville is at 22". Koi will stop eating below a certain temperature (some say below 50-54 degrees F). Mine stopped eating below 50 F. So while they may not hibernate in the sense that a bear will hibernate, they do become lethargic, and greatly reduce their activity. This is normal behavior for temperate fish in winter. "George" wrote in message ... "MC" wrote in message om... After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi You'd have to have one hell of an aquarium heater to do the job you are asking of it. On the other hand, there are products out there that do the job more efficiently. I use a pond de-icer. It only raises the temperature at the surface to a level that will keep most of the pond ice-free, so it isn't on all the time, and saves on the electrical bill. Check out this web page for more information on pond de-icers: http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm The one I have is the green one. Good luck. |
"MC" wrote in message om... Again, if the combination of your climate and depth of your pond allows, a deicer is great, but I don't think it fits all situations. Contrary to what many people think, Koi don't hibernate. Below 50-54 F they will stop, or greatly reduce their feeding (most of the microbes that aid in digestion go dormant under winter conditions, so unless the food is easy to digest, they won't get much benefit from it anyway) and greatly reduce their activity. Whether that is called hibernation or not, it is a normal reaction of temperate fish to winter conditions. Mine did just that, and they managed last winter just fine. If the water temperature was above 50 F, I threw in a little food. If not, I left them alone. Fish can go for weeks without eating in winter because of their reduced metabolism. They are, after all, cold blooded. As for the de-icer, I agree that they don't work in all conditions. But they certainly will not work efficiently in most any cold region if the depth of the pond is above the recommended depth for a given region (usually six inches or more below the frost line). That is a design/construction issue. If this is the case with your pond, then you may have to spend more money on alternative heating systems, which can be expensive both to purchase, and to operate. Either that, or be prepared to remove your fish from the pond and bring them inside for the winter (not a good choice, but maybe the only one in some cases). "George" wrote in message ... "Janet" wrote in message ... -- "MC" wrote in message om... After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to escape. My questions a 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves? 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid. FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi I'll agree with George here. We have a pool and last winter we left the solar blanket underneath the black winter tarp. It's didn't lessen the ice at all. The solar blanket just froze intot he ice. I'm in zone 6b and I use a stock tank de-icer in the pond. I don't think the aquarium heater is going to do it... Janet in Niagara Falls The de-icer worked great for me. |
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